The Irish Dating/Sex/Virginity/Women/Men Relationship Defining Debate

Drift

The PI and AH forums always have a plentiful supply of topics regarding both men and women not being able to get a gf/bf, still being a virgins, afraid they'll end up alone etc.

Many of the varying topics that come up in discussion are that:

1. Irish men have the madonna/whore complex
2. Irish women are stuck up.
3. The media is bombarding us with sexual imagery and telling us we should all be swinging from the chandeliers in our mad sexcapades.
4. Women like bastards.
5. Men only want sex.
6. Catholic guilt / social taboo's is the a reason for damn near every piece of odd behaviour.
7. Online dating is only for weirdo's who can't "get" anyone in real life.
8. If you're a virgin over the age of *insert age here* you're a saddo.
9. If you're single there's something wrong with you

There's loads more that I can't remember off hand, please feel free to add your own.

So to the point of this thread ..... there isn't one LOL. What I'm trying to start is a general discussion with regards to the forming of relationships both loving and sexual in an Irish context. It seems like we're a nation of contradictions. In general we don't do the American "dating" thing of asking out randomers on the street yet we seem very adept at scoring randomers in a drunken state at pubs/clubs etc and trying to build a relationship on a one night encounter. Sex (from my experience anyway) is not openly discussed unless we can do so with some anonymity but once we can it's all go because we're obsessed with finding out what others are up to and what we're missing out on. I'll add more later if anyone else joins in the discussion but for now I'll leave it at that. And btw feel free to post whatever your thoughts are on the general issue. My plan is for this thread to go waaaaaaaay off topic and branch in every direction. If it doesn't I'll be disappointed.

I think in order to set things going I probably need to ask a question (feel free to ignore it and answer something completely different):

Men were once portrayed as dominant providers who demanded sex and women as the meek caring child bearers who provided men with sex to maintain the relationship. Although completely inaccurate; at least young people had a set relationship path to aspire to in life. Now that all bets are off: Do you think Irish culture has evolved in such a way that young men and women have become very confused about their role in a relationship and as such find it increasingly difficult to form relationships that fit into their own internally conflicting opinions of what a relationship should be?

pedro ferio-vti

Drift wrote: »

I think in order to set things going I probably need to ask a question (feel free to ignore it and answer something completely different):

Men were once portrayed as dominant providers who demanded sex and women as the meek caring child bearers who provided men with sex to maintain the relationship. Although completely inaccurate; at least young people had a set relationship path to aspire to in life. Now that all bets are off: Do you think Irish culture has evolved in such a way that young men and women have become very confused about their role in a relationship and as such find it increasingly difficult to form relationships that fit into their own internally conflicting opinions of what a relationship should be?

Yes. Yes I do.

Are you bored in work too?

b_beep

+1:d

djpbarry

Drift wrote: »

In general we don't do the American "dating" thing of asking out randomers on the street yet we seem very adept at scoring randomers in a drunken state at pubs/clubs etc and trying to build a relationship on a one night encounter.

This was something that I found very frustrating when I was younger; you might as well be asking an Irish girl to marry you when asking them out on a "date" - they certainly seem to treat it as such.

Was never much good at the aul' "scoring drunk birds in clubs" game; most of the girls I went out with were either work colleagues or friends of friends.

LaVidaLoca

One thing I notice that is different about Ireland to other countries, is the lack of clearly defined gender roles here, as well as clearly defined 'rules' of dating, both before and after the Celtic tiger.

Irish women are often quite blokey, and Irish men often quite shy (largely as a result of being used to being told for most of their lives to **** off and not even think about it!) Irish men and women, traditionally, dont know the little dating/flirting tips n tricks that women and men from other cultures are practically taught at birth.

I watch my mainland European male friends, literally cleaning up at parties with very basic stuff: Just looking a woman straight in the eyes with a cheeky knowing grin, and they'll be upstairs a-shagging seconds later. Something that most Irish guys simply wouldnt ever be able to do.

Ditto with the ladies. Many Irish ladies are still stuck with the same tecnique they used in Primary school. Slag him off, call him names and laugh at him, and that probably means you're interested in him. Or not. How is one to know?

In recent years, both Irish Men and women have tried to make up for this deficiency by adopting a sort of caricature of what they see as mature (usually American or Anglo-style) sexuality. This usually involves dying your hair blond, wearing a skirt the size of a handerchief and enough fake tan to keep Willy Wonka supplied with Oompa Loompas till doomsday. For the guys this involves drinking 18 pints so you'll have the courage to go up to a girl and say "So d'ya fancy a **** or wha?"

Of course, this bravado is about as deep as the pints that inspired it. It's something that Italians/Spanish and other Euros find hilarious to watch about us. The hugely low self-esteem that causes young girls to think that a short skirt ,died blond hair and a sassy 'tude constitutes :"Sexy".

In other countries, sexy is about far, far more than that.

seamus

I think there are a number of things at play that'll largely peter themselves out over time but that we Irish are struggling with. It's probably to do with our sudden increase in wealth as well as the dropping of traditional catholic ways - many people under 40 had no real "education" in getting to know the other sex because in times gone by their parents met at barn dances or were set up by parents and so forth. Well maybe not, but perhaps there was much less "work" to be done - people who were too shy or otherwise not going for it, had relatives do some groundwork for them in arranging a partner. Or maybe I'm talking crap.

On the part of men, there's definitely much less incentive now to become attached then there may have been. A single man in his 20's and 30's is free to party all night, buy tonnes of gadgets and man toys for his home and generally do whatever the hell he likes without being stigmatised for being single.

On the part of women, I think as said above, there's a reluctance to somewhat "give it a go" and instead assume that a date is a lead-up to marraige. If a man asks her out, instead of just giving an answer, she has to text all her mates and worry about what they think, much like being 14 again.
In a totally opposite vein, pop culture creates an expectation in young women that if a man doesn't tick every single one of your boxes, right down to the shape of his toenails, you should ditch him because he's not "Mr Right" or your mates won't like him.

I never really entered the dating game, having become attached early on, but these are the kinds of patterns I see with single friends and family.

LadyJ

ROFL, I thought the title of the thread was "The Irish dancing/sex/virginity/women/men relationship defining debate".

Obviously I have absolutely no idea how to form a relationship because the title I thought I saw briefly made a lot of sense to me!

Drift

I'm not personally into the one night hook. It sounds ghey but what I'm looking for is a gf not a shag. The problem is that because I work in a male dominated field and am not from the centre of dublin (;)) the main option for meeting available girls is in the pub, because of Irish peoples fascination with drink. I don't know if other guys find this or not but a lot of irish girls tend to give off a "don't even bother" attitude if you try and strike up a conversation with them in a pub. I know this sounds like a generalisation but it is honestly a personal experience. I've done a lot of travelling but I can only compare "chatting up girls" in Ireland and the States and it genuinely is a LOT easier over there, girls appear open to chatting to you and less likely to see you as some sort of leche only after one thing. The real killer part is that once you get to know them Irish girls are much more fun (:rolleyes: can't win either way can you!).

Friends of friends appears to be the best way to meet girls but you can end up in a catch 22 if you don't know many to start with.

I can also see exactly what LaVidaLoca says about the Irishman's way of charming a girl, i.e. get hammered drunk and try to look cool while ripping the piss out of her. I too have seen European friends of mine pretty much score with girls at will in Ireland. Unfortunately I could never see how they did it and even if I could see I have a built in shyness that I would need to overcome in order to have more sexual confidence and I think a lot of Irish guys are the same way. No doubt this is what the girls complain about when they talk about the Mammy's boy thing.

Drift

LadyJ wrote: »

ROFL, I thought the title of the thread was "The Irish dancing/sex/virginity/women/men relationship defining debate".

Obviously I have absolutely no idea how to form a relationship because the title I thought I saw briefly made a lot of sense to me!

LOL So where do you want me to take you dancing LadyJ?

LadyJ

Drift wrote: »

LOL So where do you want me to take you dancing LadyJ?

Heh, yeah it was pretty funny I was like "Mm, yes, I see where this is going. Of course for sex to happen there mst be irish dan- Hang on a second!"

And to answer your question, any kind of feis is a major turn-on.

AngryBadger

There has been a major shift in the culturally-defined gender roles of men and women over the last few decades, and this is obviously a huge contributing factor to the problems irish people have with relationships nowadays.

I don't think there's any single answer to why irish people seem to be so bad at relationships, casual sex, and so on. However I do think there's one factor which contributes more than any other single factor, and this is the notion that a relationship, at any level, is like some kind of riddle you can solve. All these stupid rules people have, don't call for 24 hours, don't shag until the 4th date, all this garbage, it doesn't mean anything, but so many people subscribe to it almost religiously.

The simple truth is that there's no secret to a relationship, if you find someone attractive then say hello to them, try to strike up a conversation. If they reciprocate, then woohoo! If they don't, well that's too bad, but c'est la vie.

Instead of that kind of relaxed approach we have guys who think that if they're not getting laid every weekend there must be something wrong with them. Girls who think the way to keep a man is treat him like ****. And crazy double standards on both sides of the gender divide that make me want to tear my hair out and pelt people with it.

Yes the lack of well-defined gender roles makes it slightly more difficult to be confident and self-assured, but does it really make it THAT much more difficult? I mean, is this not a fantastic opportunity we have? A chance to decide for ourselves what and who we want to be? That's how I see it anyway.

But alas, I seem to be part of the tiny minority that embrace this kind of thinking. Most guys are content to get pissed up every weekend and nail the nearest piece of skirt. And most women seem to genuinely believe treating all men like **** will get them what they want.

You know an american girl told me yesterday that a female irish friend told her the only way to keep a man was to sleep with him on the first date.

seriously....

Sleepy

I'm going to sound pretty old-fashioned making this point but does anyone else think that a lack of respect for other people in general is a contributing factor in this?

Drift

I'd agree Sleepy, it appears to be part of a throwaway culture that has developed. If something isn't perfect immediately people no longer seem interested in putting in effort into it. Sadly I think the same attitude is becoming more obvious in marriages.

AngryBadger

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm going to sound pretty old-fashioned making this point but does anyone else think that a lack of respect for other people in general is a contributing factor in this?

Completely.

I'll elaborate on this in the morning when I'm less full of alcohol.

AngryBadger

To be honest I'm not sure how to respond to the question of how much respect people have for one another these days.

I think a lot of my peers have been raised with a silver spoon in their mouth, and some of them are right little punks/bitches. They have completely inflated notions about themselves, think they're entitled to everything, and are obsessed with the stupidest things (coke culture, big cars, and all that crap). Now these people are lacking in respect for others, but also for themselves.

In many cases our parents came from families that were not wealthy, and once they established tehmselves as adults with their own families they decided the obvious thing was to give their children all the things they never had themselves. Unfortunately this doesn't lead to an emotionally balanced individual. And while kids didn't want for material thigns, there was very little solid guidance on personal issues regarding sex and relationships (and a whole host of other things).

I think most peoples parents didn't even realise their kids were now exposed to all these new pressures, and in many cases the parents themselves were ill-equipped to help their kids deal with said pressures. Consequently people started turning to other sources for help, and so you have this half-baked "liberal" culture spliced with the fact that most irish people are still embarrassed to talk about sex. Many irish women are like a sack of potatoes in bed, and a lot of guys can't find the clitoris.

So we have this really negative attitude toward sex buried under this facade of...frankyl I don't know what it's a facade of.

To tell you the truth, I think it's down to the individual to decide who they want to be these days, and if someone is so small-minded and lacking in self-respect that they can't decide for themselves not to be a part of this kind of crappiness then sod them.

Zulu

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm going to sound pretty old-fashioned making this point but does anyone else think that a lack of respect for other people in general is a contributing factor in this?

Yup certainly do, but I'd go one further... a lack of self-respect. (Causing insecurity)

Zombrex

djpbarry wrote: »

This was something that I found very frustrating when I was younger; you might as well be asking an Irish girl to marry you when asking them out on a "date" - they certainly seem to treat it as such.

Yeah I noticed that. I think it is because to the Irish dating is something you tend to do down the line, often after you have shifted/felt up/shagged the other party for a bit.

This is obviously quite unlike America, where you date first, before all that. You date before you hold hands, let alone kiss.

So possibly Irish girls (and guys maybe) think that by going on a date you want to skip way down the line to lying naked in bed eating pizza all weekend.

AngryBadger

A lot of irish guys figure you won't get sex without going on at least one date, while a lot of irish girls seem to think that by sleeping with a guy they're drawing them into some kind of binding contract.

Up to a certain age, and to be honest even after that, guys are generally more interested ins ex without the emotional commitment aspect of a relationship, while women are more interested in the emotional stability they get form a relationship. The goals are almost completely polarised, and unless both sides are willing to acknowledge this you wind up with the inevitable situation i described above.

Zombrex

Zulu wrote: »

Yup certainly do, but I'd go one further... a lack of self-respect. (Causing insecurity)

I would say the same thing

The problem is that both genders, particularly younger people, really want to be considered worthy of desire from the other gender. They want to be considered successful in attracting people, because our culture puts so much weight in that as a item of value. This manifest itself differently in men and women (men will boast to their mates that they shagged such and such, where as women will cuddle up to their attractive, popular, successful man pleased that he, someone important, has decided that she is worthy of going out with, and therefore she is important and worthy too or at least attractive enough to get one), but ultimately it is the same thing.

This leads to insecurity, the idea that we have no self worth because we aren't attracting people like such and such. I think a lot of it has to do with our celeb culture, particularly modern American and English celeb culture that puts so much emphasis on sexual attraction over everything else.

So to combat that insecurity they subscribe to these notions of the opposite gender as something that can be controlled and predicted, that it is possible to study and learn how to be attractive to them.

This ultimately objectifies the other person you are trying to attract. You don't actually like them, you probably don't even know them, you want to see if you can pull them because doing so will make you feel better about yourself (btw this links into why women go for bastards)

Its interesting that men's mags have really started pilling on the guides for how to attract women. A lot of these articles are ridiculous, but they serve the purpose of convincing the insecure male that there is actually something they can do to make themselves more successful at attracting women.

Of course women's mags and books have been doing this for years. The idea that men objectify women but not the other way around is nonsense. Women objectify men far more than men objectify women. But for some reason this is seen as harmless, where as men doing it is seen as a sign of lack of respect and of the old gender wars.

So I suppose ultimately it does come down to a lack of respect for the opposite gender, the idea that they are predictable creatures that once the secret is cracked you can have them easily, and that having them sexually desire you is important and makes you important, irrespective of who they actually are

Drift

Great post Wicknight, you put into words something that I always thought but found it hard to put my finger on or express properly. Insecurity can be caused by society telling you that to be a successful in life you MUST be in demand by the opposite sex.

I think this also leads to the percieved stratification ("out of my league") of "dating" structure. For young men especially this usually manifests itself as sizing up a womans appearance and thinking "I could get a better looking girl than her" or "Wait till my friends see me scoring someone this hot." With women it's slightly different but still there's still a stratification; "He's only a plumber I can do better than him."

Although first impressions are important the personality of a potential mate has become sidelined. Society/magazines/tv tell us our significant other should tick this that and the other box and then all our peers will look up to us for having obtained such a great specimen. A bf/gf is regularly discussed nowadays as a posession to show off to your mates.

simu

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

One thing I notice that is different about Ireland to other countries, is the lack of clearly defined gender roles here, as well as clearly defined 'rules' of dating, both before and after the Celtic tiger.

Irish women are often quite blokey, and Irish men often quite shy (largely as a result of being used to being told for most of their lives to **** off and not even think about it!) Irish men and women, traditionally, dont know the little dating/flirting tips n tricks that women and men from other cultures are practically taught at birth.

I watch my mainland European male friends, literally cleaning up at parties with very basic stuff: Just looking a woman straight in the eyes with a cheeky knowing grin, and they'll be upstairs a-shagging seconds later. Something that most Irish guys simply wouldnt ever be able to do.

Ditto with the ladies. Many Irish ladies are still stuck with the same tecnique they used in Primary school. Slag him off, call him names and laugh at him, and that probably means you're interested in him. Or not. How is one to know?

In recent years, both Irish Men and women have tried to make up for this deficiency by adopting a sort of caricature of what they see as mature (usually American or Anglo-style) sexuality. This usually involves dying your hair blond, wearing a skirt the size of a handerchief and enough fake tan to keep Willy Wonka supplied with Oompa Loompas till doomsday. For the guys this involves drinking 18 pints so you'll have the courage to go up to a girl and say "So d'ya fancy a **** or wha?"

Of course, this bravado is about as deep as the pints that inspired it. It's something that Italians/Spanish and other Euros find hilarious to watch about us. The hugely low self-esteem that causes young girls to think that a short skirt ,died blond hair and a sassy 'tude constitutes :"Sexy".

In other countries, sexy is about far, far more than that.

Good post, la vida loca. I think you touch on a broader point here and that is that we have no well-defined and widely accepted system of etiquette here, unlike say, France, where there is a certain ceremony known to all even when doing something as simple and banal as buying bread. I think this is partly for historical reasons - we lost our native gentry centuries ago and we never really had a large urban bourgeoisie until very recently. Most of us are only a few generations away from a peasant lifestyle - the sort of courting and marriage-arranged rituals of this lifestyle are no more but all we have to fill the gap seems to be poor imitation of TV and film influences. And because people are unsure of what's going on in many social situations, they tend to get insecure and this is manifested in different ways - excessive shyness or suspicion of others or hostility and so on.


Well, that's my 2C and a gross simplification of history!

Wibbs

I second simu on LaVidaLoca's post. I will say that the European guys pulling more women is more to do with the fact that they're different IMHO. We all seek out different to avoid inbreeding and the like. That's a lot of it. I know that if I'm in foreign climes I do better than the local guys and significantly better than I would do here. To put it in an obvious and banal way(and purely physical) if I could attract a "5" here, I could attract a "7/8" in an outside context. This seems to hold true even when the competition is better looking(ie most european males:)). Looking back through photos of my exes the foreign women were objectively better looking(and no this isn't the usual BS of irish women are ugly either).

*Generalisation alert* I will say from a guys perspective, I find irish women harder work at least in my experience. The over inflated opinion being a biggy. They assume if you're talking to them then you must be interested, no matter how unattractive they may or may not be. I find them harsher in interaction. Now this may be a self fulfilling prophecy as I believe this to be true from earlier experience so... I will say that I have heard same from foreign guys as well. I have not heard from foreign guys that irish women are unattractive to nearly the same extent as the local lads seem to think(or dopey polls on AH). If they comment on anything it's the hard work aspect. Funny I've heard similar from foreign women, dealing with them on a friendly basis.

Both irish men and women definitely drink too much though and that affects the whole dating scene. Regardless of individual opinion that is a certainty. The lack of things to do other than the pub is an issue too.

Zombrex

Wibbs wrote: »

*Generalisation alert* I will say from a guys perspective, I find irish women harder work at least in my experience.

Well perhaps looking at is as "work" is where you are going wrong

Seriously though I think it is a case where Irish girls simply aren't as bothered about thinks like scoring than Irish men, or even European women. Again that is a massive generalisation, I know plenty of Irish girls who get upset if they go to a night club and they don't score someone. But equally I know far more girls who are perfectly happy going out to a night club and not even chatting to guys, let alone scoring them. In fact they find chatting to guys annoying once they realise the guy is trying to chat them up, as it where.

That is not to say that they don't have all the issue with feeling attractive that I mentioned in the other post, its simply that places like night clubs are not where these manifest.

Just taking a wild stab at why this would be, I think Irish women view the status of the relationship much more importantly than the status of the man himself. Pulling in a night club doesn't make them feel better about themselves because that is not the aspect they care about. In fact it might even make themselves feel worse, feel that they are "giving it away", demonstrating that they are single rather than in a relationship.

They don't judge themselves based on the attractiveness of the guy they can make want to sleep with them in a dirty night club, they judge themselves based on the attractiveness of the guy they bring to a wedding or home to the parents house.

So guys think Irish girls are "hard work" because the guy is fighting for the score, while that is often the last thing the girl is thinking about. In fact it is part of their own self esteem to do that. This is a little confusing for guys, who think what is the problem, I'm attractive and single, your attractive and single, why are you being such a bitch about it, can we not just score. Whats the big freaking deal?

But the point is when they give you a look simply because you are saying "hello" to them they aren't saying "Not a chance, you are ugly and I am so much better than that", they are saying "Not a chance, you aren't my boyfriend" even if they don't have a boyfriend. It the esteem of saying "I do this with my boyfriend, not with anyone"

Which is why guys who tend to be successful with pulling Irish women are the ones who are not only attractive but who are charming and make them feel special and important, because they are thinking "boyfriend material" Unfortunately for them the guy is probably thinking "Score!" and it leads to plenty of "why do I always pick the bastard!" tears the next day. If I guy was honest and said "I'm just looking for a score and maybe a shag" he wouldn't get very far, and that is how a lot of Irish guys come across.

Just a theory, and as I said a massive generalisation.

AngryBadger

I'm not really sold on a lot of what you're saying there Wicknight.

I do think there's definitely a part of the irish female demographic who don't want to score anyone who isn't their boyfriend. But I don't think that's a majority, or even a significantly large fraction.

Also that whole way of approaching thigns seems completely without reason. Granted this is where some of my arguments may fall apart since I always tend to assume people are going to act in the way that optimises their satisfaction. But....

1) If women are doing that, do they not realise they're writing off a lot of potential boyfriends by snubbing guys who try and talk to them in a night club? Granted that a lot of guys will just be trying to get a score, or a shag, but there are plenty of instances where women respond exactly the same to perfectly nice guys who are just initiating a conversation with no seedy ulterior motive.

2) Like it or not, a huge amount of social interaction in Ireland takes palce in the pub/club scene. If a woman actually believed that all guys in pubs/clubs were only trying to get their end away, then why bother going to pubs/slubs at all?

3) How do women know the point at which a guy is being charming and not just sleazy? Personally I've lost count of the number of times I've been chatting to a girl, jsut being social and courteous, only to have her decide I'm obviously hitting on her and she's happy about it. Explain plz!

4) If women are only interested in being intimate with guys they're going out with, then why hook up with guys at all? By which I mean you mentioned

Wicknight wrote:

guys who tend to be successful with pulling Irish women are the ones who are not only attractive but who are charming and make them feel special and important, because they are thinking "boyfriend material"

See I don't understand this. Someone make the connection between "sleazy guy = no action", "charming guy = possible boyfriend", and "Score/shag charming guy = smart move"?

If women are convinced that all guys want is to get their love on then surely it's painfully obvious that shagging a guy you've only just met.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad idea to sleep with a guy you've only just met. I'm syaing that in the context of a mindset that believe all/most guys in this lpub/club are only here for one thing, THEN sleeping with a guy you actually like is a bad move, (since you already think he only wants to have sex with you).

Also, I think everything you've said does apply to some women, just not most of them. I think the real answer to this riddle is somewhere in the middle.

Just thought of one more thing. How do women know that men aren't flirting with them when they're being friendly outside of a pub/club environment? I mean by this system of reasoning shouldn't I routinely backhand any woman I talk to just so she doesn't get the wrong idea ;p



...just kidding btw!



...about the backhanding I mean, not about everything else

Earthhorse

I think there are a few key reasons we're faced with the kinds of situations described on this thread in Irish society today.

The first is something Sleepy aluded to earlier; the lack of respect people show each other nowadays. Why is this? To my mind, the move from rural to urban dwelling is the primary force at play here. Communities enforce desirable behaviour by ensuring those who don't behave in a way that benefits said community are punished. Cities are far more fluid and anonymous; communities lose their power because the cohesion they once required is no longer needed amongst a large populace. If I lose you as a customer, who cares? There are hundreds of others to replace you. If you refuse me as a client what have I lost? Nothing; I'll take my business elsewhere.

This extends itself to the debate at hand; people tend to treat the business of business and the business of love as the same. They aren't, of course, but when people behave this way all day there's an inevitable spillover.

Hand and hand with this comes the matter of choice. Choice is a good thing, or so we're told, and indeed it is; particularly when it comes to deciding what colour to paint the conservatory. But give people a choice in what they want to do with their lives or who they should spend those lives with and what do they become? Choosy. Confused. Too much choice and people don't know what to think. You can be anything, implying you should everything; all things to all people. How many people have you met who feel rudderless in their lives? This might be better than a society where no choice is present but it comes with its drawbacks.

And in relationships choice has become an almost detrimental thing. How many people have you met that you honestly felt you could spend the rest of your life with? Probably a few but there's less incentive to investigate these things or upon investigation make these things work when there's a world of choice out there. Boyfriend doesn't tick all the boxes? Chuck him. Girlfriend doesn't measure up in every area? Dump her. Plenty o' fish in the sea, you're better off without that loser anyway.

The decline of the church's influence has it's part to play too. Marriage and family are no longer the pillars of society they once were. Perhaps that's a good thing, it's certainly liberating in some ways, but we may have escaped those traps only to be caught in others. Every generation thinks it is the greatest, the cleverest, the wisest, most knowing. So we suppose that our parents knew nothing of love or passion or any of that. We know all about that. We won't get caught in a loveless marriage. We'll have love twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Or we just won't bother getting married. Whatever.

It's all very well blaming celebrity culture; glossy mags and Sex in the City, but really I think there are more powerful societal changes at play here.

AngryBadger wrote: »

Up to a certain age, and to be honest even after that, guys are generally more interested ins ex without the emotional commitment aspect of a relationship, while women are more interested in the emotional stability they get form a relationship. The goals are almost completely polarised, and unless both sides are willing to acknowledge this you wind up with the inevitable situation i described above.

Honestly, I think that's total crap. Up to a certain age, granted, but beyond that no, men are just as interested in love, romance, companionship, friendship and connecting with someone. They may not admit it or talk about it in those terms but the relationships I see around me aren't exclusivley about sex for the man.

Myths about genders are another thing I think we fight with too. Women have gone from being unable to enjoy sex to having to enjoy sex the same way men do. It's bullshit, and unfortunate that people buy into it. But hey, when there's so much shit for sale, and at such knock down prices, what cynic could resist investing?

AngryBadger

Earthhorse wrote:

Honestly, I think that's total crap. Up to a certain age, granted, but beyond that no, men are just as interested in love, romance, companionship, friendship and connecting with someone. They may not admit it or talk about it in those terms but the relationships I see around me aren't exclusivley about sex for the man.

I did stipulate "up to a certain age", which you agreed with. I never said men weren't interested in romance, relationships, love and so on. Also I never suggested relationships were ultimately all about "sex for the man".

All the changes in social infrastructure you mentioned, aren't those an inevitable part of progress? I'm not aware of any means of society evolving that doesn't lead to urbanisation, and a decline in the church, (although we could argue well into the night about the "decline" in the church). Granted people certainly have a lot more freedom of choice nowadays, but wouldn't we be complaing about the lack of choice if things were different?

And even if certain social "anchors" have been removed, or denuded, all we've lost is a bunch of social constructs. they don't have a tangible value that we can't replace with something else.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's an over-simplification to say that we suddenly have all this choice and now we can't handle relationships because there's always the chance somethign better will come along. WHat about the fact that a lot of us grew up with that level of choice? I'll grant you there's been an especially large amount of change in the last 2/3 decades, but I grew up taking that level of choice for granted (as did my peers), and I don't feel somehow incapacitated by it.

I'd agree that it's a contributing factor, but only really in the sense that what would have been acceptable 50 years ago is no longer the case today. But even then, we grew up with those changes happening around us, so surely we should be accustomed to them?

Earthhorse wrote:

Myths about genders are another thing I think we fight with too. Women have gone from being unable to enjoy sex to having to enjoy sex the same way men do. It's bull****, and unfortunate that people buy into it. But hey, when there's so much **** for sale, and at such knock down prices, what cynic could resist investing?

I don't think it's a myth to say men and women have different views/attitudes to sex. Again that's an inescapable consequence of the differences between the two genders. Females will tend to prefer security, whereas males will tend to prefer promiscuity, it's a biological imperative. While there are plenty of myths out there which are idiotic, I don't think the idea that men and women have different attituddes to sex (and therefore to relationships in some regards) is one of them.

Earthhorse

AngryBadger wrote: »

Also I never suggested relationships were ultimately all about "sex for the man".

No, what you said was...

AngryBadger wrote: »

...guys are generally more interested ins ex without the emotional commitment aspect of a relationship, while women are more interested in the emotional stability they get form a relationship.

Which implies that guys are mostly in relationships for the sex.

AngryBadger wrote: »

All the changes in social infrastructure you mentioned, aren't those an inevitable part of progress?

Yes, they are. Does that prevent them from explaining the phenomena we're discussing in this thread?

AngryBadger wrote: »

Granted people certainly have a lot more freedom of choice nowadays, but wouldn't we be complaing about the lack of choice if things were different?

Of course we would; my point was that as we progress we replace one set of problems with a new set of problems. I'm not saying we wouldn't have problems without choice, I'm saying choice brings with it its own problems.

AngryBadger wrote: »

And even if certain social "anchors" have been removed, or denuded, all we've lost is a bunch of social constructs. they don't have a tangible value that we can't replace with something else.

Agreed, but what have we replaced them with? Internet dating and the pub and night club scene? I'm not saying either of those are entirely broken but they would appear to be less effective than the old barn dance or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

AngryBadger wrote: »

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think it's an over-simplification to say that we suddenly have all this choice and now we can't handle relationships because there's always the chance somethign better will come along. WHat about the fact that a lot of us grew up with that level of choice? I'll grant you there's been an especially large amount of change in the last 2/3 decades, but I grew up taking that level of choice for granted (as did my peers), and I don't feel somehow incapacitated by it.

It's not that we can't handle relationships but that there is less incentive to. All relationships need to grow and it seems to me that the fallout stage for a lot of relationships today is at a point where the couple need to grow; buying a house or getting married seem to be the big ones. People are understandably afraid when taking such large steps and when they feel that their options are open, that there's no expectation on them to be married at this age, or even to marry at all, and that there are plenty of other single people out there for them, they'll be more likely to back out. This is true at all stages of modern relationships but more visible at such pivotal moments.

It shouldn't matter whether you grew up with such choice or not, it still plays a factor in how you make decisions, and whilst you personally might not feel "incapacitated" by it many people do become poorer decision makers in its light. I'll try and dig up some good stuff on choice but I honestly can't remember right now where I read the articles.

Also, yes, perhaps my analysis is incomplete (I wouldn't say over-simplified) but it was meant to rest along other ideas in this thread e.g. the over reliance on alcohol, as an explanation and I would put more stock in it than explanations involving celebrity culture and glossy magazines.

AngryBadger wrote: »

I don't think it's a myth to say men and women have different views/attitudes to sex. Again that's an inescapable consequence of the differences between the two genders. Females will tend to prefer security, whereas males will tend to prefer promiscuity, it's a biological imperative. While there are plenty of myths out there which are idiotic, I don't think the idea that men and women have different attituddes to sex (and therefore to relationships in some regards) is one of them.

Oh, I'm not saying there aren't differences between the genders. I'm saying there are myths about both genders (that men are entirely obsessed about sex for instance) that people find easy to believe. For instance, the myth that women didn't enjoy sex has now been replace with the myth that they can enjoy sex in the same way most men do. Sure, some women can, but not all. Hope that's a little clearer.

Drift

I'd be really interested in hearing any womens views on the issue(s). I'm afraid of this thread turning into a "whats wrong with women" debate when I wanted it to be a "whats wrong (if anything) with the opportunities availabe to form and keep relationships" debate.

Any women out there reading this thread care to throw a few words in?

LadyJ did you lose interest when the dancing finished?

I apologise profusely to any of the other contributors if I have misinterpretted their sex. LOL

Wibbs

Wicknight wrote:

Well perhaps looking at is as "work" is where you are going wrong

Maybe so. I will say for me at least it was more work. As you say, maybe it was the husband material vibe I was picking up on. Something that was far less obvious with non Irish women. Though again that varies with culture. A mate of mine is going out with a Russian woman, and her and her friends are even more marriage orientated. For me with Irish women, it's the assumption that just because you're chatting to them, you must be trying to pull, even outside the pub/club secnario, that irritates me.

I do think both men and women in Ireland are not good at the harmless flirting that means nothing. The men are obvious and usually drunk and the women respond accordingly to all men. One feeds the other.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Hand and hand with this comes the matter of choice. Choice is a good thing, or so we're told, and indeed it is; particularly when it comes to deciding what colour to paint the conservatory. But give people a choice in what they want to do with their lives or who they should spend those lives with and what do they become? Choosy. Confused. Too much choice and people don't know what to think. You can be anything, implying you should everything; all things to all people. How many people have you met who feel rudderless in their lives? This might be better than a society where no choice is present but it comes with its drawbacks.

Very good point and one reason some researchers think that depression is very rare among "primitive" societies. Along with the sense of community and defined roles, choice is more limited in such societies. While I much prefer to live in a society where there are more choices, it does as you say, bring issues. You could also argue that we do have more choices, but not as many as we think. Just the perception of more choice for most.

And in relationships choice has become an almost detrimental thing. How many people have you met that you honestly felt you could spend the rest of your life with? Probably a few but there's less incentive to investigate these things or upon investigation make these things work when there's a world of choice out there. Boyfriend doesn't tick all the boxes? Chuck him. Girlfriend doesn't measure up in every area? Dump her. Plenty o' fish in the sea, you're better off without that loser anyway.

I agree in a big way with this. Most relationships I've seen go south do so at that transition from the honeymoon period into a more long term thing. That can be simply because the spark wears off and they see each other as not very compatible but it's usually the point where the real work often starts(and it is work). Far simpler to try something new with someone new and live off the in love feelings again. I've seen that with many women I know. they have jumped from one guy to the next and when they hit their mid 30's they either "settle" or complain there aren't enough eligible men. I know with two cases that the women regret not staying with a guy a few exes back. One is married now and still pines for one of her exes from ten years ago. Men can do it too but the fact is men have a longer shelf life in the dating world, so can get away with it for longer.

Earthhorse

Here's a link to an article on too much choice: http://blackfriarsinc.com/totm.html. They're mostly talking about consumer as opposed to romantic choice but the same logic applies.

But psychology experiments prove the opposite. In one experiment, when researchers asked subjects to compare chocolate chip cookies from a jar of 10 cookies and a jar of two cookies, the subjects rated the cookie from the smaller jar better than the one from the larger jar. And the cookie wasn't just better. It was rated more valuable, more desirable to eat in the future, and more attractive as a consumer item, despite the fact the cookies were identical. More choice made the subjects feel that their sample was less desirable.

I've highlighted the part I regard as important in bold.

b3t4

I think this thread would be a good read in relation to this topic http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055202860

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54841743&postcount=85
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54842626&postcount=89

A

Zulu

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do.

I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inacurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting raped.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do

I don't think you need to go that far to see why some women in Ireland heave the way they do.

Earthhorse

Wicknight wrote: »

I don't think you need to go that far to see why some women in Ireland heave the way they do.

Nice typo!

raemie21

I remember a guy doing something similar to me before, didn't exactly spit on me but stuck out his tongue and made that noise that babies do when they don't like their food.

I actually find it really hard to distinguish between a guy who is just chatting to you and a guy who is chatting you up. I've tried to take it easy and assume they are not after something but usually get it wrong & then I get the backlash of why am I being such a tease, i'm a stuck up cow who thinks she's great, he was 'only having a laugh' , what's my problem, i'm a snob, why am I wasting his time etc.

Maybe we're both a bit insecure and hate the rejection, I know I've heard a few friends of mine say some awful things too but certainly guys can give the crude verbal backlash when things don't go to plan for them.

The other thing that happens to me frequently on nights out is that a guy will slap me across my backside - seriously, that happens 2/3 nights on average. I'll be walking across the room or at the bar and coming out of the toilets - doesn't matter. And this isn;t in the same clubs/pubs either. Apart from being incredibly rude, a type of assault and not in the least bit attractive, it's also genuinely sore at times. The guy can then either look around and smile (as if?!), often just walks away or has a laugh with his mates. I used be very embarrassed when this happened and would avoid looking back but now I give the look over and shake my head saying that I'm out of their league - now I know that's spiteful but it makes me feel better about it and hey, maybe next time they won't slap my backside and try talk to me instead.

I've also had a guy spill his pint over me to get attention & he thought I'd see the funny side. WTF???

And these guys I'm talking about are in their mid-late twenties, so no lame excuses for immature behaviour please.
And also, I dress well but not with all out flesh if that's what any of you were thinking.
Seriously, it's hard work out there!!

Seraphina

Zulu wrote: »

I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inacurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting raped.

considering the amount of rapes reported every year, less women probably get spat on than raped, but in fairness, i'd much prefer to be spat on than raped so its a bit of a stupid comparison really

Seraphina

raemie21 wrote: »

I actually find it really hard to distinguish between a guy who is just chatting to you and a guy who is chatting you up. I've tried to take it easy and assume they are not after something but usually get it wrong & then I get the backlash of why am I being such a tease, i'm a stuck up cow who thinks she's great, he was 'only having a laugh' , what's my problem, i'm a snob, why am I wasting his time etc.

totally agree, fact is, 99% of irish men do NOT take rejection very well, as if me being taken/out with my friends and not interested in giving him ALL my attention/not interested because he's too drunk to hold a conversation is a personal attack on his character and worth as a person.

i am always polite and friendly with guys who chat to me, but unfortunately, while the guys here claim they can't talk to women without the women thinking they are coming on to them, i've had pretty much the opposite experience with guys talking to me, in that they've always been after something, and they assume because you're chatting back, its fine for them to grab you/ try to kiss you after 3 mins lame conversation/ whatever.

problem is, a bunch of drunken assholes who are much more forward and agressive when it comes to chatting up women have given most of the irish male population a bad name

Zulu

Seraphina wrote: »

considering the amount of rapes reported every year, less women probably get spat on than raped, but in fairness, i'd much prefer to be spat on than raped so its a bit of a stupid comparison really

em no. You've just acknowledged that: a) it happens less and b) it's less likely to happen. So it's hardly "stupid" or ill-conceived. In fact, the comparison did exactly what I wanted it to do, which was to suggest that:
Using the excuse that the odd person got spat at to excuse snobbery and aloofness is as poor an excuse as suggesting rape is the reason people can be snobby or aloof.

Thanks for your opinion though.

Drift

b3t4 wrote: »

I think the post which states that a female was spat on when she refused a guys advances is particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do.

I'm honestly very shocked that this type of thing happens. If it was a one off incident I'd be appalled but the fact that it appears to happen quite often is just beyond anything I could imagine. I can assure the girls though that there are plenty of guys myself and my friends included who would have very strong words with any man who did that to a woman.

Seraphina wrote: »

totally agree, fact is, 99% of irish men do NOT take rejection very well, as if me being taken/out with my friends and not interested in giving him ALL my attention/not interested because he's too drunk to hold a conversation is a personal attack on his character and worth as a person.

I think 99% is a bit high. No-one likes rejection but many of us can be and are perfectly polite when a girl lets us know she's not interested. Obviously it's a blow to a guys ego but it's not the end of the world.

Seraphina wrote: »

problem is, a bunch of drunken assholes who are much more forward and agressive when it comes to chatting up women have given most of the irish male population a bad name

Here here. The really sad thing is that even though I don't drink and I'm very polite (I am I swear!) most girls seem to immediately assign the drunken aggresive stereotype to all guys that talk to them - it means you're already starting with her having a low opinion of you which can be hard to get beyond.

Zulu

Drift wrote: »

The really sad thing is that even though I don't drink ...it means you're already starting with her having a low opinion of you which can be hard to get beyond.

You could argue that the really sad thing is that these ladies have let the actions of "a bunch of drunken assholes" give the rest of the male population a bad name.

Macha

Having lived in France for a year, I have to say it is so nice in Ireland not to have some guy eyeing you up or asking you out the second you walk in the door of a place. When I first came back from France, I was constantly on my guard & was actually quite rude to a few guys initially before I realised what I was doing.

Then again, I have had a stranger come up to me in a bar and say 'Nice tits!' Not a recommended chat-up line, more likely to get the speaker a punch in the face than a good night out. Actually the weekend of the Italian match, these little Italians came up to us & were really cheeky - I don't find Irish guys are like that at all.

I think the problem is there's a bit of a vacuum. Equality has arrived and women need to do some asking!

Zulu - your comment on women being spat on about the same number of times they get raped is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on my time here on Boards!

tech77

Wicknight wrote: »

I would say the same thing

The problem is that both genders, particularly younger people, really want to be considered worthy of desire from the other gender. They want to be considered successful in attracting people, because our culture puts so much weight in that as a item of value. This manifest itself differently in men and women (men will boast to their mates that they shagged such and such, where as women will cuddle up to their attractive, popular, successful man pleased that he, someone important, has decided that she is worthy of going out with, and therefore she is important and worthy too or at least attractive enough to get one), but ultimately it is the same thing.

This leads to insecurity, the idea that we have no self worth because we aren't attracting people like such and such. I think a lot of it has to do with our celeb culture, particularly modern American and English celeb culture that puts so much emphasis on sexual attraction over everything else.

So to combat that insecurity they subscribe to these notions of the opposite gender as something that can be controlled and predicted, that it is possible to study and learn how to be attractive to them.

This ultimately objectifies the other person you are trying to attract. You don't actually like them, you probably don't even know them, you want to see if you can pull them because doing so will make you feel better about yourself (btw this links into why women go for bastards)

Its interesting that men's mags have really started pilling on the guides for how to attract women. A lot of these articles are ridiculous, but they serve the purpose of convincing the insecure male that there is actually something they can do to make themselves more successful at attracting women.

Of course women's mags and books have been doing this for years. The idea that men objectify women but not the other way around is nonsense. Women objectify men far more than men objectify women. But for some reason this is seen as harmless, where as men doing it is seen as a sign of lack of respect and of the old gender wars.

So I suppose ultimately it does come down to a lack of respect for the opposite gender, the idea that they are predictable creatures that once the secret is cracked you can have them easily, and that having them sexually desire you is important and makes you important, irrespective of who they actually are

Good post, Wicknight.

Zulu

taconnol wrote: »

Zulu - your comment on women being spat on about the same number of times they get raped is probably the silliest thing I've ever read on my time here on Boards!

I understand where you are coming from, what with our recent posts and all. Thanks for your opinion.

I would find it strange that you couldn't grasp what I'm was trying to express, if I didn't believe that you'd rather just have a pop. Ah well fair enough I suppose.

Let me see, perhaps if I remove the rape reference and use another reference it would suit your sensibilities better?

Read: I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inaccurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting knocked down crossing the road.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Does that sit better with you? No? Well ok - my point is that it's an infrequent occurrence, and that to attempt to excuse the behaviour of a (large?) portion of our society by very infrequent actions isn't accurate.

...but of course I don't expect you to accept that as being anything other than the second silliest comment ever read here. :rolleyes:

Macha

Zulu wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from, what with our recent posts and all. Thanks for your opinion.

I would find it strange that you couldn't grasp what I'm was trying to express, if I didn't believe that you'd rather just have a pop. Ah well fair enough I suppose.

Let me see, perhaps if I remove the rape reference and use another reference it would suit your sensibilities better?

Read: I'm not saying women behave in any particular way - but that comment is very inaccurate in fairness. I have never seen a woman being spat on. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's probably as frequent as a woman getting knocked down crossing the road.
To say that because of a few extra ordinary experiences is "particularly telling of why women in Ireland behave in the way they do" is a total inaccurate cop out.

Does that sit better with you? No? Well ok - my point is that it's an infrequent occurrence, and that to attempt to excuse the behaviour of a (large?) portion of our society by very infrequent actions isn't accurate.

...but of course I don't expect you to accept that as being anything other than the second silliest comment ever read here. :rolleyes:

Dude, your sarcastic passive-aggressive posts don't do you any favours.

Wicknight, I agree with your post. I have one girlfriend in particular with quite low self-esteem. She can't go for a night out without turning it into a man-chase - to the extent that it has damaged her friendships with me and others. And for what? Empty validation of her own attractiveness through the pointless 'pulling' of guys who are probably doing exactly the same thing - meaningless interaction or what?

Zombrex

Zulu wrote: »

You could argue that the really sad thing is that these ladies have let the actions of "a bunch of drunken assholes" give the rest of the male population a bad name.

Doesn't really follow, ladies aren't responsible for provoking men into behaving a certain way, so how would they be responsible for men acting like assh*les and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Zulu

Wicknight wrote: »

Doesn't really follow, ladies aren't responsible for provoking men into behaving a certain way, so how would they be responsible for men acting like assh*les and giving the rest of us a bad name.

Sorry perhaps I wasn't being clear. I wasn't trying to suggest ladies were provoking men. What I was trying to suggest was that:
it could be viewed as a shame that people would let a small number of a group tarnish there opinion of a greater group.

(Think of it like this: it's a shame that society lets a small number of bad apples amongst the travelling community tarnish their opinion of that community as a whole - now substitute men for the travelling community, and well greater society as women. Is that any clearer? Sorry, I'm on the beer.)

kravmaga

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

One thing I notice that is different about Ireland to other countries, is the lack of clearly defined gender roles here, as well as clearly defined 'rules' of dating, both before and after the Celtic tiger.

Irish women are often quite blokey, and Irish men often quite shy (largely as a result of being used to being told for most of their lives to **** off and not even think about it!) Irish men and women, traditionally, dont know the little dating/flirting tips n tricks that women and men from other cultures are practically taught at birth.

I watch my mainland European male friends, literally cleaning up at parties with very basic stuff: Just looking a woman straight in the eyes with a cheeky knowing grin, and they'll be upstairs a-shagging seconds later. Something that most Irish guys simply wouldnt ever be able to do.

Ditto with the ladies. Many Irish ladies are still stuck with the same tecnique they used in Primary school. Slag him off, call him names and laugh at him, and that probably means you're interested in him. Or not. How is one to know?

In recent years, both Irish Men and women have tried to make up for this deficiency by adopting a sort of caricature of what they see as mature (usually American or Anglo-style) sexuality. This usually involves dying your hair blond, wearing a skirt the size of a handerchief and enough fake tan to keep Willy Wonka supplied with Oompa Loompas till doomsday. For the guys this involves drinking 18 pints so you'll have the courage to go up to a girl and say "So d'ya fancy a **** or wha?"

Of course, this bravado is about as deep as the pints that inspired it. It's something that Italians/Spanish and other Euros find hilarious to watch about us. The hugely low self-esteem that causes young girls to think that a short skirt ,died blond hair and a sassy 'tude constitutes :"Sexy".

In other countries, sexy is about far, far more than that.

Excellent post and I agree with the paragraph on irish woman using skills they learned inprimary school, ie slag him off, rip the piss out of him, laugh at him, my mates wives do this to them every day.

I dont get Irishwomens soh anymore, much prefer English, Latino's and Polish woman, and they are on our door steps now

dr_manhattan

As an aside, I'd recommend the book "red queen" by Matt Ridley, an investigation of how sexual drives explain our social interactions and aspirations.

Unfortunately, we are biologically programmed to treat reproductive capabilities as status symbols. It's not that we can't escape it, it's just very much hard wired into us.

Otherwise sex wouldn't be such a potent force in our lives. Simple as that.

So while I wholeheartedly agree with the majority of this thread, which is essentially looking at how material wealth and social networking distorts our sexuality and makes it a nasty game, all I can say is it's not something that comes from nowhere.

Imho, the worst thing about it is that our society wasn't designed, it evolved from the most brutal of societies where alpha males with massive harems (kings) made their reproductive prowess (ascendancy and title) the be-all and end-all of their societies. Everything was connected to bloodlines, which gave the right to simply take everything.

And so what we're left with is a bit of a mess. No matter how much we correct it, our society promotes mindless behaviour and chessplaying in order to get the biggest nest, and thus the most prestigious mate(s).

At the end of the day, our DNA is using us to get about and recombine in the most prolific and successful way possible. If we want to get away from this we need to work pretty damn hard at it.

oh and PS this is not some darwinian justification for ****ty behaviour - quite the opposite, I think that saying "well we're made this way" is a lazy copout. But I also believe that we must be honest about this stuff, and realise that we ourselves are the culprits.

My 2 cents

dr_manhattan

Oh and btw, great post wicknight:

"So I suppose ultimately it does come down to a lack of respect for the opposite gender, the idea that they are predictable creatures that once the secret is cracked you can have them easily, and that having them sexually desire you is important and makes you important, irrespective of who they actually are"

On this note I recommend "the game" by Neil Strauss - a writer who joined the online dating community (one of which is the basis for Tom Cruise's character in "magnolia") and became the centre of it.

Cultures like these people (they call themselves PUAs - Pick Up Artists) and stuff like NLP make me sick. They are driving our society ever deeper into moral bankruptcy by advising everyone to lie in order to be popular.

On a similar note, reality TV culture and big brother (mentioned here as potentially to blame for poor worldviews and simplistic self worth systems) are just the lowest common denominator in a messed up system.

* cheapest possible TV, with replaceable characters
* lowest from of entertainment: laughing at stupid people with the potential to watch them have sex LIVE!
* appeals to inherent laziness of a spoonfed culture that not only want to be rich and famous above all else, but they want it to happen instantly and for no reason
* destroys any potential for TV to educate by replicating the same, uneducated, retarded conversations we all have every day, and putting it on TV like it's some how interesting or unusual.
* appeals to the lowest need for recognition and sexualised popularity
* promotes the idea that everyone's opinion is important and everyone's ideas are valuable - sorry but if this is true then why do we educate ourselves, and why do we use these educational qualifications to get employment?

Rant over ;-)

Earthhorse

dr_manhattan wrote: »

On this note I recommend "the game" by Neil Strauss - a writer who joined the online dating community (one of which is the basis for Tom Cruise's character in "magnolia") and became the centre of it.

I started reading that this week as it happens. Haven't seen Magnolia but who is Cruise's character based on?

dr_manhattan

LOL, I just can't leave this one alone ;-)

Just a further comment on lying to "crack" the opposite sex:

In "the game" there's a great moment when all the top PUAs realise that - from networking and holding seminars - they have vastly more phone numbers of other desperate men than of hot glamourous women.

There's a very funny undertone of homoeroticism, pointing out that men do this stuff as much to impress and bond with other men as to meet women. That's why I nejoyed the book, cos on one level it's "hey look at us, gods of dating" but on a much higher level it's a great description of the farcical actions of desperately insecure and damaged men preying on vacuous damaged women.

The fact that Courtney Love winds up living with them for the latter half of the book underlines this, haha. Thoroughly recommend this book, it's trash you'd read it in 5 minutes...

It's always seemed funny to me that when it comes down to arhctypes, generalisations etc:

"straight" men often prefer the company of men to women
"gay" men often prefer the company of women to men

Anyone else think that's funny?