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What makes a spoiled vote?

  • 20-02-2011 12:20am
    #1
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭


    Excuse my ignorance people....have always voted and will continue to do so. However, if I do not number some of the candidates on the day, does that spoil my vote? There are one or two here in Clare that I wouldn't give the steam off my proverbial.....do I have to give them any preference or will my vote not be counted if I leave any blanks??? :pac: Anybody??!


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Comments

  • #2
    mud
    Registered Users Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭mud


    I'd love to know this too. I've spoken to quite a few people who say they will spoil their votes on election day. What does this mean? Will the vote be discarded? Or is it actually factored in as a spoiled vote?

    Many thanks.


  • #3
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    a spoiled vote is when someone wearing uggs, fake tan and a "rindabyte" accent casts their vote..

    There !


  • #4
    Dinner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    You dont have to give all candidates a preference. So you can just write 1 in the box beside 1 candidate and leave the rest blank if you wish.

    A spoiled vote is basically anything on the ballot paper other than numbers in boxes. An X, a crossed out name or any other writing will make a vote spoiled.

    As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.


  • #5
    Rockery Woman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Rockery Woman


    Dont worry, if you only support one candidate put "1" in his/her box and leave the rest blank. You dont need to nominate all of them (1 - 15 for example). If you accidentally spoil your vote, if you accidentally put your number 1 beside the wrong candidate for example - go to a Poll Clerk, they will give you a new slip, and you will still have a chance to vote.

    The spoiled votes are kept seperately and safely by the Poll Clerks until the polling station closes. They are all accounted for - in a single day at a polling station there will always be a small number of spoiled votes. An intentionally spoiled vote might be someone writing "Dustin the Turkey" on the slip for example, and putting it into the box! These spoiled votes wont be discovered until the counting process though.

    Have a feeling "Dustin" might get a few votes this year judging by the popularity of our current government!


  • #6
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    It's not quite clear cut. So long as the voter indicates clear preference and doesn't identify themselves in any way on their vote the returning officer is likely to allow it to count.


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  • #7
    Shelflife
    Registered Users Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    "A spoiled vote is basically anything on the ballot paper other than numbers in boxes. An X, a crossed out name or any other writing will make a vote spoiled"


    Not quiet, where the intention of the voter cannot be ascertained then that is a spoiled vote.

    if for example you put an X beside a candidate that would/could be percieved as being a vote for that candidate. if you put A B C D E beside candidates that too could be taken as that your voting intentions are clear


  • #8
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Dinner wrote: »
    As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.

    Returning officers are charged with making all reasonable efforts to ensure that the wish of the voter is recorded, and as a result spoiled ballot papers are often contested by candidates. If the returning officer believes he/she can clearly identify the intentions of the voter, he/she will call representatives from each of the candidates campaign teams together and check if they are OK with the vote being counted.

    For example - If a ballot paper has a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then a 5th preference being recorded (4th preference was skipped perhaps by mistake) the returning officer will attempt to have the 1st, 2nd & 3rd preference stand even though in theory it is a spoiled vote.

    The same can apply to single dashes on the ballot paper etc. The contesting of spoiled votes is a hectic occurrence during the count!


  • #9
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    Some returning officers have been know to allow votes with no 1 but a 2, 3, 4, etc on them stand. It can come down to a very contentious argument in a tight count.


  • #10
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    leeroybrown wrote: »
    Some returning officers have been know to allow votes with no 1 but a 2, 3, 4, etc on them stand. It can come down to a very contentious argument in a tight count.

    Indeed - one ballot paper has even been the source of a High Court case. :)


  • #11
    upmeath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭upmeath


    Dinner wrote: »
    As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.

    Effect of a spoiled vote:
    The number of votes required by a candidate to be deemed elected (the quota) in each constituency is set by the formula:

    (TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

    So if 40,000 people vote in a 3 seat constituency on polling day, the quota will be [(40000 / 4) + 1] or 10,001 valid votes per candidate.

    The total number of votes cast is determined by reading the roll from each polling station, and is then used to set the quota before the count starts. If they count all the votes and find that 1,000 were spoiled in that constituency, then 1,000 people have made it difficult for candidates to get themselves elected as a quota has been made more scarce. Of course, you could say that the quota is equally scarce for all candidates. But the beauty is in the detail - if you spoil your vote by putting a 1 next to the candidate of your preference AND writing beneath it
    "Sorry Dessie boy, I had to spoil this because you're a lying ****** and you never did any good for this town"
    you've denied Dessie a first preference vote and his tallymen will most likely read your protest as the ballot box is being opened or as votes are counted. So rather than abstaining and reducing the quota, you've set them a higher bar and you've made an effective political protest.


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  • #12
    Reilly616
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Reilly616


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    Indeed - one ballot paper has even been the source of a High Court case. :)

    Interesting! Do you happen to recall the name of the case?


  • #13
    Reilly616
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Reilly616


    upmeath wrote: »
    Effect of a spoiled vote:
    The number of votes required by a candidate to be deemed elected (the quota) in each constituency is set by the formula:

    (TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

    So if 40,000 people vote in a 3 seat constituency on polling day, the quota will be [(40000 / 4) + 1] or 10,001 valid votes per candidate.

    The total number of votes cast is determined by reading the roll from each polling station, and is then used to set the quota before the count starts. If they count all the votes and find that 1,000 were spoiled in that constituency, then 1,000 people have made it difficult for candidates to get themselves elected as a quota has been made more scarce. Of course, you could say that the quota is equally scarce for all candidates. But the beauty is in the detail - if you spoil your vote by putting a 1 next to the candidate of your preference AND writing beneath it
    "Sorry Dessie boy, I had to spoil this because you're a lying ****** and you never did any good for this town"
    you've denied Dessie a first preference vote and his tallymen will most likely read your protest as the ballot box is being opened or as votes are counted. So rather than abstaining and reducing the quota, you've set them a higher bar and you've made an effective political protest.

    Isn't the quota actually:

    (TOTAL NUMBER OF VALID VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

    thus making your point inaccurate?


  • #14
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,458 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    Reilly616 wrote: »
    Interesting! Do you happen to recall the name of the case?

    It is all covered in the book "Count, Recount & Petition" written by Louis Brennan.

    Basically it relates to the local elections in Borris in Ossory in 1999. Larry Kavanagh (Labour) & Joe Bonham (Fine Gael) ended up with level votes on the final count. The seat was declared won by Joe Bonham due to the fact that he was perceived to have one the most first preferences.

    Larry Kavanagh launched a court case in order to have every single ballot paper reviewed, including the contested ones, in order to ensure that Bonham had in fact received the most first preferences.


  • #15
    leeroybrown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,563 ✭✭✭leeroybrown


    I'm reminded of one classic spoil where a SF member tried to argue with the returning officer that 'suck my cock' beside Mary Lou's name indicated clear preference.


  • #16
    upmeath
    Registered Users Posts: 1,492 ✭✭✭upmeath


    Reilly616 wrote: »
    Isn't the quota actually:

    (TOTAL NUMBER OF VALID VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

    thus making your point inaccurate?

    Apologies, it is the valid poll cast, so the higher standard for a weakened field point is inaccurate, but the ballot can still be used in protest, which I would imagine is the main reason for deliberate spoiling.


  • #17
    Obliq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    All very interesting.....hope I'm right in the understanding that even in a 4 seat constituency, the less I vote for (assuming I don't suddenly develop a written case of tourette's) the more accurately my preferences will be taken into account? If I was to only vote 1 to 4, without voting for the other 10 or so, the candidates I leave blank cannot gain from this?? As in, no preferences will be passed on to candidates that I do not support?


  • #18
    Reilly616
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Reilly616


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    It is all covered in the book "Count, Recount & Petition" written by Louis Brennan.

    Basically it relates to the local elections in Borris in Ossory in 1999. Larry Kavanagh (Labour) & Joe Bonham (Fine Gael) ended up with level votes on the final count. The seat was declared won by Joe Bonham due to the fact that he was perceived to have one the most first preferences.

    Larry Kavanagh launched a court case in order to have every single ballot paper reviewed, including the contested ones, in order to ensure that Bonham had in fact received the most first preferences.

    Thanks for the info! Just searching there I couldn't dig out a written judgment, but I'll keep that book in mind . . . despite the mountain of books currently awaiting my attention. :P


  • #19
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    leeroybrown wrote: »
    I'm reminded of one classic spoil where a SF member tried to argue with the returning officer that 'suck my cock' beside Mary Lou's name indicated clear preference.

    I have to wonder: might that be made a conditional vote?


  • #20
    Mesenger1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭Mesenger1


    May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!


  • #21
    Reilly616
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Reilly616


    Mesenger1 wrote: »
    May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

    Considering you're trying to increase awareness, maybe you should steer clear of quadruple negatives, which have the effect of reversing the meaning you are trying to get across! :P


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  • #22
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,327 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    Any vote for ULA / SF is a spoiled vote imo.


  • #23
    Reilly616
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 374 ✭✭Reilly616


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    Any vote for ULA / SF is a spoiled vote imo.

    Then your opinion is factually wrong . . .


  • #24
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Mesenger1 wrote: »
    May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

    If there are 14 candidates, and you vote all the way down the ballot paper, your 14th preference has no chance of ending up with your vote.


  • #25
    Sad Professor
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,668 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sad Professor


    Yeah, if you really hate a certain candidate that much it makes sense to fill out the whole ballot and put them last. It's better than just going 1-2-3-4 and stopping as I suspect a lot of people do.


  • #26
    Clinker
    Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Clinker


    Expanding on the importance of expressing your preference as far dow as you have one (including the difference between "dislike" and "loathe"!), with, say, 16 candidates on the ballot paper, suppose that after a number of counts your 10th preference becomes active. Then the candidates you voted 1 to 9 have all either been elected (and your vote is part of their transferred surplus) or eliminated. If you don't care at all, even slightly, which of 10 to 16 get in, then fine, leave the rest blank and your vote is non-transferable and can't decide between any remaining candidates (at least one of whom is going to be elected if your 10th preference is active). If, on the other hand, you would prefer absolutely anyone to get in than, say, the Christian Solidarity Party candidate, then you can do your bit by assigning preferences all the way down and giving the CSP candidate 16th preference (last preference is no help to any candidate: if all the rest have been elected or eliminated and one seat is left then the candidate would be elected without reaching the quaota anyway). So if you have even a mild preference between candidates (even if you don't particularly like them) you should continue on down until you have no preference at all. If (as in the example) there is one candidate you absolutely don't want to be elected, the best you can do is to give them the lowest possible preference (16th out of 16 in the example), which entails filling in the intervening preferences in some order, possibly random.


  • #27
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    On the ballot paper on Friday, I put a " / " mark instead of an X - so basically I put half an X (had gone in upset from a row I'd had with someone close about the referendum and as a result I stupidly didn't have the focus to properly read the instructions where it probably said to put an X). Happily, the count went the way I wanted anyways but just out of sheer curiosity, I'm wondering if my vote was spoiled or counted. Would anyone here know? Thanks in advance...


  • #28
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Cabria wrote: »
    On the ballot paper on Friday, I put a " / " mark instead of an X - so basically I put half an X (had gone in upset from a row I'd had with someone close about the referendum and as a result I stupidly didn't have the focus to properly read the instructions where it probably said to put an X). Happily, the count went the way I wanted anyways but just out of sheer curiosity, I'm wondering if my vote was spoiled or counted. Would anyone here know? Thanks in advance...

    If the intent is clear, the vote is generally counted.


  • #29
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 16,875 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    oscarBravo wrote:
    If the intent is clear, the vote is generally counted.


    +1
    If you had marks all over the page or you wrote something in protest it'll be a spoil vote.

    If you put a half an X & nothing else on the page it is a legitimate vote. Clap yourself on the back as your vote counted


  • #30
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,047 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    If there are 14 candidates, and you vote all the way down the ballot paper, your 14th preference has no chance of ending up with your vote.
    Yes, he does. Just.

    Supposing you vote no. 1 for not-very-likely-to-be-elected candidate.

    Your candidate is not at the top of the poll, but also not at the bottom. So as the count proceeds your vote stays with your candidate as other candidates are either elected or eliminated.

    As it happens, by the time your number 1 candidate has been eliminated, there are only two candidates remaining contesting the last seat, and you have numbered them [something higher than 14] and 14.

    Obviously, your vote goes to the first candidate. But suppose the position now is that the two remaining candidates have an equal number of votes. What happens?

    What happens, in the Seanad system at any rate, is that the returning officer looks to see who has the greatest number of next preferences, and your 14th preference for the other candidate will be counted. And this could result in the other candidate being elected.

    So, if there are 14 candidates, one of whom you particularly loathe, your optimal strategy is to express a preference for 13 of the candidates, and leave the 14th blank.


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  • #31
    kweeveen86
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭kweeveen86


    Yeah. Was wondering yesterday what 6,045 people did on Friday to get their vote counted as 'spoiled'?! Seems like a lot to me!


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