What makes a spoiled vote?

Obliq

Excuse my ignorance people....have always voted and will continue to do so. However, if I do not number some of the candidates on the day, does that spoil my vote? There are one or two here in Clare that I wouldn't give the steam off my proverbial.....do I have to give them any preference or will my vote not be counted if I leave any blanks??? :pac: Anybody??!

mud

I'd love to know this too. I've spoken to quite a few people who say they will spoil their votes on election day. What does this mean? Will the vote be discarded? Or is it actually factored in as a spoiled vote?

Many thanks.

Tigerbaby

a spoiled vote is when someone wearing uggs, fake tan and a "rindabyte" accent casts their vote..

There !

Dinner

You dont have to give all candidates a preference. So you can just write 1 in the box beside 1 candidate and leave the rest blank if you wish.

A spoiled vote is basically anything on the ballot paper other than numbers in boxes. An X, a crossed out name or any other writing will make a vote spoiled.

As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.

Rockery Woman

Dont worry, if you only support one candidate put "1" in his/her box and leave the rest blank. You dont need to nominate all of them (1 - 15 for example). If you accidentally spoil your vote, if you accidentally put your number 1 beside the wrong candidate for example - go to a Poll Clerk, they will give you a new slip, and you will still have a chance to vote.

The spoiled votes are kept seperately and safely by the Poll Clerks until the polling station closes. They are all accounted for - in a single day at a polling station there will always be a small number of spoiled votes. An intentionally spoiled vote might be someone writing "Dustin the Turkey" on the slip for example, and putting it into the box! These spoiled votes wont be discovered until the counting process though.

Have a feeling "Dustin" might get a few votes this year judging by the popularity of our current government!

leeroybrown

It's not quite clear cut. So long as the voter indicates clear preference and doesn't identify themselves in any way on their vote the returning officer is likely to allow it to count.

Shelflife

"A spoiled vote is basically anything on the ballot paper other than numbers in boxes. An X, a crossed out name or any other writing will make a vote spoiled"


Not quiet, where the intention of the voter cannot be ascertained then that is a spoiled vote.

if for example you put an X beside a candidate that would/could be percieved as being a vote for that candidate. if you put A B C D E beside candidates that too could be taken as that your voting intentions are clear

Sierra Oscar

Dinner wrote: »

As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.

Returning officers are charged with making all reasonable efforts to ensure that the wish of the voter is recorded, and as a result spoiled ballot papers are often contested by candidates. If the returning officer believes he/she can clearly identify the intentions of the voter, he/she will call representatives from each of the candidates campaign teams together and check if they are OK with the vote being counted.

For example - If a ballot paper has a 1st, 2nd, 3rd and then a 5th preference being recorded (4th preference was skipped perhaps by mistake) the returning officer will attempt to have the 1st, 2nd & 3rd preference stand even though in theory it is a spoiled vote.

The same can apply to single dashes on the ballot paper etc. The contesting of spoiled votes is a hectic occurrence during the count!

leeroybrown

Some returning officers have been know to allow votes with no 1 but a 2, 3, 4, etc on them stand. It can come down to a very contentious argument in a tight count.

Sierra Oscar

leeroybrown wrote: »

Some returning officers have been know to allow votes with no 1 but a 2, 3, 4, etc on them stand. It can come down to a very contentious argument in a tight count.

Indeed - one ballot paper has even been the source of a High Court case.

upmeath

Dinner wrote: »

As far as I know a count of the spoiled votes is kept, but it will serve no meaningful point whatsoever.

Effect of a spoiled vote:
The number of votes required by a candidate to be deemed elected (the quota) in each constituency is set by the formula:

(TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

So if 40,000 people vote in a 3 seat constituency on polling day, the quota will be [(40000 / 4) + 1] or 10,001 valid votes per candidate.

The total number of votes cast is determined by reading the roll from each polling station, and is then used to set the quota before the count starts. If they count all the votes and find that 1,000 were spoiled in that constituency, then 1,000 people have made it difficult for candidates to get themselves elected as a quota has been made more scarce. Of course, you could say that the quota is equally scarce for all candidates. But the beauty is in the detail - if you spoil your vote by putting a 1 next to the candidate of your preference AND writing beneath it
"Sorry Dessie boy, I had to spoil this because you're a lying ****** and you never did any good for this town"
you've denied Dessie a first preference vote and his tallymen will most likely read your protest as the ballot box is being opened or as votes are counted. So rather than abstaining and reducing the quota, you've set them a higher bar and you've made an effective political protest.

Reilly616

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Indeed - one ballot paper has even been the source of a High Court case.

Interesting! Do you happen to recall the name of the case?

Reilly616

upmeath wrote: »

Effect of a spoiled vote:
The number of votes required by a candidate to be deemed elected (the quota) in each constituency is set by the formula:

(TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

So if 40,000 people vote in a 3 seat constituency on polling day, the quota will be [(40000 / 4) + 1] or 10,001 valid votes per candidate.

The total number of votes cast is determined by reading the roll from each polling station, and is then used to set the quota before the count starts. If they count all the votes and find that 1,000 were spoiled in that constituency, then 1,000 people have made it difficult for candidates to get themselves elected as a quota has been made more scarce. Of course, you could say that the quota is equally scarce for all candidates. But the beauty is in the detail - if you spoil your vote by putting a 1 next to the candidate of your preference AND writing beneath it
"Sorry Dessie boy, I had to spoil this because you're a lying ****** and you never did any good for this town"
you've denied Dessie a first preference vote and his tallymen will most likely read your protest as the ballot box is being opened or as votes are counted. So rather than abstaining and reducing the quota, you've set them a higher bar and you've made an effective political protest.

Isn't the quota actually:

(TOTAL NUMBER OF VALID VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

thus making your point inaccurate?

Sierra Oscar

Reilly616 wrote: »

Interesting! Do you happen to recall the name of the case?

It is all covered in the book "Count, Recount & Petition" written by Louis Brennan.

Basically it relates to the local elections in Borris in Ossory in 1999. Larry Kavanagh (Labour) & Joe Bonham (Fine Gael) ended up with level votes on the final count. The seat was declared won by Joe Bonham due to the fact that he was perceived to have one the most first preferences.

Larry Kavanagh launched a court case in order to have every single ballot paper reviewed, including the contested ones, in order to ensure that Bonham had in fact received the most first preferences.

leeroybrown

I'm reminded of one classic spoil where a SF member tried to argue with the returning officer that 'suck my cock' beside Mary Lou's name indicated clear preference.

upmeath

Reilly616 wrote: »

Isn't the quota actually:

(TOTAL NUMBER OF VALID VOTES CAST ON POLLING DAY / NUMBER OF SEATS +1) +1

thus making your point inaccurate?

Apologies, it is the valid poll cast, so the higher standard for a weakened field point is inaccurate, but the ballot can still be used in protest, which I would imagine is the main reason for deliberate spoiling.

Obliq

All very interesting.....hope I'm right in the understanding that even in a 4 seat constituency, the less I vote for (assuming I don't suddenly develop a written case of tourette's) the more accurately my preferences will be taken into account? If I was to only vote 1 to 4, without voting for the other 10 or so, the candidates I leave blank cannot gain from this?? As in, no preferences will be passed on to candidates that I do not support?

Reilly616

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It is all covered in the book "Count, Recount & Petition" written by Louis Brennan.

Basically it relates to the local elections in Borris in Ossory in 1999. Larry Kavanagh (Labour) & Joe Bonham (Fine Gael) ended up with level votes on the final count. The seat was declared won by Joe Bonham due to the fact that he was perceived to have one the most first preferences.

Larry Kavanagh launched a court case in order to have every single ballot paper reviewed, including the contested ones, in order to ensure that Bonham had in fact received the most first preferences.

Thanks for the info! Just searching there I couldn't dig out a written judgment, but I'll keep that book in mind . . . despite the mountain of books currently awaiting my attention. :P

P. Breathnach

leeroybrown wrote: »

I'm reminded of one classic spoil where a SF member tried to argue with the returning officer that 'suck my cock' beside Mary Lou's name indicated clear preference.

I have to wonder: might that be made a conditional vote?

Mesenger1

May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

Reilly616

Mesenger1 wrote: »

May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

Considering you're trying to increase awareness, maybe you should steer clear of quadruple negatives, which have the effect of reversing the meaning you are trying to get across! :P

jimmycrackcorm

Any vote for ULA / SF is a spoiled vote imo.

Reilly616

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Any vote for ULA / SF is a spoiled vote imo.

Then your opinion is factually wrong . . .

P. Breathnach

Mesenger1 wrote: »

May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

If there are 14 candidates, and you vote all the way down the ballot paper, your 14th preference has no chance of ending up with your vote.

Sad Professor

Yeah, if you really hate a certain candidate that much it makes sense to fill out the whole ballot and put them last. It's better than just going 1-2-3-4 and stopping as I suspect a lot of people do.

Clinker

Expanding on the importance of expressing your preference as far dow as you have one (including the difference between "dislike" and "loathe"!), with, say, 16 candidates on the ballot paper, suppose that after a number of counts your 10th preference becomes active. Then the candidates you voted 1 to 9 have all either been elected (and your vote is part of their transferred surplus) or eliminated. If you don't care at all, even slightly, which of 10 to 16 get in, then fine, leave the rest blank and your vote is non-transferable and can't decide between any remaining candidates (at least one of whom is going to be elected if your 10th preference is active). If, on the other hand, you would prefer absolutely anyone to get in than, say, the Christian Solidarity Party candidate, then you can do your bit by assigning preferences all the way down and giving the CSP candidate 16th preference (last preference is no help to any candidate: if all the rest have been elected or eliminated and one seat is left then the candidate would be elected without reaching the quaota anyway). So if you have even a mild preference between candidates (even if you don't particularly like them) you should continue on down until you have no preference at all. If (as in the example) there is one candidate you absolutely don't want to be elected, the best you can do is to give them the lowest possible preference (16th out of 16 in the example), which entails filling in the intervening preferences in some order, possibly random.

On the ballot paper on Friday, I put a " / " mark instead of an X - so basically I put half an X (had gone in upset from a row I'd had with someone close about the referendum and as a result I stupidly didn't have the focus to properly read the instructions where it probably said to put an X). Happily, the count went the way I wanted anyways but just out of sheer curiosity, I'm wondering if my vote was spoiled or counted. Would anyone here know? Thanks in advance...

oscarBravo

Cabria wrote: »

On the ballot paper on Friday, I put a " / " mark instead of an X - so basically I put half an X (had gone in upset from a row I'd had with someone close about the referendum and as a result I stupidly didn't have the focus to properly read the instructions where it probably said to put an X). Happily, the count went the way I wanted anyways but just out of sheer curiosity, I'm wondering if my vote was spoiled or counted. Would anyone here know? Thanks in advance...

If the intent is clear, the vote is generally counted.

Sleeper12

oscarBravo wrote:

If the intent is clear, the vote is generally counted.

+1
If you had marks all over the page or you wrote something in protest it'll be a spoil vote.

If you put a half an X & nothing else on the page it is a legitimate vote. Clap yourself on the back as your vote counted

Peregrinus

P. Breathnach wrote: »

If there are 14 candidates, and you vote all the way down the ballot paper, your 14th preference has no chance of ending up with your vote.

Yes, he does. Just.

Supposing you vote no. 1 for not-very-likely-to-be-elected candidate.

Your candidate is not at the top of the poll, but also not at the bottom. So as the count proceeds your vote stays with your candidate as other candidates are either elected or eliminated.

As it happens, by the time your number 1 candidate has been eliminated, there are only two candidates remaining contesting the last seat, and you have numbered them [something higher than 14] and 14.

Obviously, your vote goes to the first candidate. But suppose the position now is that the two remaining candidates have an equal number of votes. What happens?

What happens, in the Seanad system at any rate, is that the returning officer looks to see who has the greatest number of next preferences, and your 14th preference for the other candidate will be counted. And this could result in the other candidate being elected.

So, if there are 14 candidates, one of whom you particularly loathe, your optimal strategy is to express a preference for 13 of the candidates, and leave the 14th blank.

kweeveen86

Yeah. Was wondering yesterday what 6,045 people did on Friday to get their vote counted as 'spoiled'?! Seems like a lot to me!

Yester

In general elections, it's when I draw an extra box on the ballot paper for Fianna Fowl and vote for Dustin.

Peregrinus

kweeveen86 wrote: »

Yeah. Was wondering yesterday what 6,045 people did on Friday to get their vote counted as 'spoiled'?! Seems like a lot to me!

Either they failed to express a clear choice (most probably by putting a mark in both boxes) or they marked their ballot paper in some way so as to make it identifiable (usually by scribbling protests or pious imprecations on it).

Das Kitty

kweeveen86 wrote: »

Yeah. Was wondering yesterday what 6,045 people did on Friday to get their vote counted as 'spoiled'?! Seems like a lot to me!

Out of more than 2 million people, that's very low IMO, 0.003%.

Spoils

- mark in both boxes
- Not embossed (quite a few of those in Galway in one box thanks to someone in the forgetting to do it)
- Identifying marks - something that could be traced back to an individual voter. The reason for this is to prevent people selling their vote.

Stuff that's fine

A clear mark in any one box, or over the writing next to the box
The words yes or no in their corresponding box

Saw very few spoils on Saturday in Galway, and most of them were unintentional. People took their vote very seriously.

FreudianSlippers

Das Kitty wrote: »

The words yes or no in their corresponding box

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't be writing "No" in the "Yes" box to vote "No" or "Yes" in the "No" box to vote "Yes"?




:pac:

Das Kitty

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't be writing "No" in the "Yes" box to vote "No" or "Yes" in the "No" box to vote "Yes"?




:pac:

You can but it'll be flung into the doubtful box!

pleas advice

"Only who can prevent forest fires? You pressed 'you' referring to me. That is incorrect. The correct answer is 'you' ..."

uck51js9zml2yt

oscarBravo wrote: »

If the intent is clear, the vote is generally counted.

Absolutely correct.

If there was a mark in 2 boxes it wouldn't be clear in the case of a referdum.
If it's not preferred with the official stamp it's also invalid.

I've often seen the case of a 1,2 and 3,3 for example
It would probably be allowed for the 2nd preference but as the 3 wouldn't be clear it would be invalidated at that point.

Zubeneschamali

Mesenger1 wrote: »

May I just say, due to the vote transference in place in this country - unless you really want a particular candidate to receive a vote DO NOT NOT NOT NOT PUT ANY NUMBER IN THEIR BOX -your number 5 or 8 or 16 can have the potential to become their number 1 - only give a number to a candidate if you really want them to have a vote!! Dont give them a number unless you really want them to have one!!

This is not a real concern - if this candidate you hate gets your vote, it is because everyone you ranked higher is already elected or eliminated. Your preference cannot help this candidate beat anyone you prefer.

It can only help them vs. the other people you rank even lower or don't rank at all, if any.

Peregrinus

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is not a real concern - if this candidate you hate gets your vote, it is because everyone you ranked higher is already elected or eliminated. Your preference cannot help this candidate beat anyone you prefer.

It can only help them vs. the other people you rank even lower or don't rank at all, if any.

Well, to pick nits, in a highly marginal case your last preference can help a candidate more than giving him no preference would have.