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Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

24

Comments

  • #32
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In Ireland the majority of Muslims may be immigrants in France/Germany or even Britain youd need to provide some figures to back this up. Either way its still not a valid assumption.
    They may be second or third generation immigrants but if they refuse to integrate then they are still "immigrants" in the eyes of society which at the end of the day is what matters.


  • #33
    WindSock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,239 ✭✭✭✭WindSock


    wes wrote: »
    France has never engaged Multi-culturalism. So another blatant attempt by Sarkozy to try and save him self from his failures.


    Indeed, I think he must have been a bit Sarkoztic.


  • #34
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Not all Muslims are extremists but most extremists who refuse to integrate just so happen to be Muslims.

    But the way it's phrased often suggests the opposite: that all, or a majority, of Muslims are extremists or that Muslims and Islam in general are to be feared.

    When people are marginalised like that is it any wonder they become extremists?
    It's been pointed out on the same thread in Politics that France took immigrants in with the expectation that they would be short-term workers and when they didn't leave the fact that they weren't prepared to deal with them became a problem.

    You can talk about how in Europe we've supposedly outgrown religion but really it's just been pushed underground, so to speak. How often are our own religious groups appeased against more egalitarian principles?
    It may no longer be overt but that doesn't mean it's not there, it's just more subtle and insidious.


  • #35
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    if they refuse to integrate then they are still "immigrants" in the eyes of society.

    In that case society is wrong.

    Besides you havent actually defined "integrate" indeed people spout this phrase "multiculturalism" without defining exactly what it is supposed to mean. Cameron's claims that "*multiculturalism has failed" are particularly odd given that he is the prime minister of a country which has been based on multiculturalism for hundreds of years namely the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and that other place.........

    * =possibly paraphrasing


  • #36
    greendom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    david75 wrote: »
    Odd. David Cameron said exactly the same thing about multiculturalism failing in Britain at a news conference in Berlin last week. Wonder where they're going with this?

    Yes and Angela Merkel said almost exactly the same thing last October. Is it to do with Turkey ?


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  • #37
    smegmar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 795 ✭✭✭smegmar


    Ban Ki Moon wrote: »
    it can only be a French Islam and not just an Islam in France.”

    exactly right. When other cultures immigrate to another country they need to understand that they must adapt to suit the locality not the other way around. If this continues the way it is there will be no distinct unique cultures, all will be nullified and coalesce into one global generic cultural-less uniformity.

    We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.


  • #38
    Grasshoppa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭Grasshoppa


    An interesting article on Muslims and integration in France (using the burqa ban as a platform)...

    http://durkadurkistan.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/burqas-and-banlieues-disguising-frances-integration-problems/


  • #39
    Badgermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    fontanalis wrote: »
    How do they impose? Just by practicing?

    No, that would be sheer intolerance.

    The catholic church has had a profound influence on the formulation of social policy, health, education and even external relations since the foundation of the state.

    'From early 1937 Eamonn de Valera was bombarded with letters daily - sometimes twice a day - from Fr. John McQuaid C.S.Sp. They were crammed with suggestions, viewpoints, documents and learned references on nearly every aspect on what was to become Bunreacht na hEireann - the Constitution of Ireland. McQuaid was the persistent adviser, 'one of the great architects of the Constitution, albeith in the shadows'.

    From John Cooney's "John Charles McQuaid, Ruler of Catholic Ireland".


  • #40
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    smegmar wrote: »
    exactly right. When other cultures immigrate to another country they need to understand that they must adapt to suit the locality not the other way around. If this continues the way it is there will be no distinct unique cultures, all will be nullified and coalesce into one global generic cultural-less uniformity.

    We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

    Irish culture is under more threat from Irish indifference and in some cases even hostility.


  • #41
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    What do you people think the alternative to multiculturalism is? Dress everyone up in big grey overalls in case some one runs around looking all different and weird and scary? Form some kind of new state approved way of talking, we can call it, ohh I dunno, Newspeak or something, so that we don't have people speaking like for'ners and making the bitter old men nervous. That kind of thing?

    Seriously now kids. It would be grand if everyone was just like you, cause you are so great and all, but it's not realistic. It's make believe, faery tale, pie in the sky stuff and it's dull. Dull and silly. It is pointless barking and rabbling about how things ought to be when you won't address how things are.

    It's multiculturalism, Airstrip One, or state enforced conformity and isolation. They are the options.


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  • #42
    partyatmygaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    In that case society is wrong.
    lol

    Society is wrong. What a strange statement to make. Just because you disagree with society does not make them "wrong".

    Besides you havent actually defined "integrate" indeed people spout this phrase "multiculturalism" without defining exactly what it is supposed to mean.
    Simple really. Multiculturalism is the belief that several different cultures often with conflicting views can coexist peacefully and equitably with one another. There's no need to define something that people ought to know. This is a thread dedicated to discussing multiculturalism, there should be no need for definition.

    As for "integration" that is being one with society. Not completely dumping your own original culture and values but adopting a reasonable "blend" if you will of the culture of both societies. Simply refusing to integrate and preferring to isolate yourself and to even scorn the society of the country in which you live is not on.
    is Cameron's claims that "multiculturalism has failed" are a tad odd given that he is the prime minister of a country which has been based on multiculturalism for hundreds of years namely. the UnitedKingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and that other place.........
    You know perfectly well what he meant. England, Scotland, Wales and dare I say it (:pac:) Ireland have a lot in common in terms of culture. We have only very slight differences which have allowed us to at first co-exist relatively peacefully and nowadays they are at times indistinguishable from one another.


  • #43
    Grasshoppa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭Grasshoppa


    Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places.

    If it doesn't work in France, then perhaps some of the blame lies at the feet of successive French governments.


  • #44
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    strobe wrote: »
    What do you people think the alternative to multiculturalism is? Dress everyone up in big grey overalls in case some one runs around looking all different and weird and scary? Form some kind of new state approved way of talking, we can call it, ohh I dunno, Newspeak or something, so that we don't have people speaking like for'ners and making the bitter old men nervous. That kind of thing?

    Seriously now kids. It would be grand if everyone was just like you, cause you are so great and all, but it's not realistic. It's make believe, faery tale, pie in the sky stuff and it's dull. Dull and silly. It is pointless barking and rabbling about how things ought to be when you won't address how things are.

    It's multiculturalism, Airstrip One, or state enforced conformity and isolation. They are the options.

    No you see to be truly free you have to stop people from acting differently from you!


  • #45
    Grasshoppa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭Grasshoppa


    smegmar wrote: »

    We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

    So you'd agree we should ban all American and UK films and TV series, in order to protect our 'Irish culture'?


  • #46
    fontanalis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Grasshoppa wrote: »
    So you'd agree we should ban all American and UK films and TV series, in order to protect our 'Irish culture'?

    No, just TG4!


  • #47
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    smegmar wrote: »
    ..........
    We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

    Who is "we" and who would "we" be protecting ourselves against, might I ask?
    Grasshoppa wrote:
    ..........
    Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places..

    Generally speaking, it does indeed. Not everybody gets on, but theres not blood on the streets either.
    Grasshoppa wrote:
    ..........

    If it doesn't work in France, then perhaps some of the blame lies at the feet of successive French governments. ..

    They never tried it in France. I'd imagine he's slagging off the Brits. As the Germans denied citizenship to those 'not of German blood' until 10 or so years ago, they rather painted themselves into a corner on the issue.


  • #48
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    partyatmygaff wrote: »
    Society is wrong. What a strange statement to make. Just because you disagree with society does not make them "wrong".

    So society can never be wrong ? What strange ideas you have. I suppose burning witches, hanging homosexuals, enslaving foreigners, sending minorities to the gas chambers or indeed beheading infidels are all fine and dandy :rolleyes:


  • #49
    Badgermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Grasshoppa wrote: »
    Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places.

    The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

    New York and London are success stories for the integration and assimilation of cultures, not multiculturalism.


  • #50
    Grasshoppa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 58 ✭✭Grasshoppa


    Badgermonkey wrote: »
    The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

    The people who voted for Geert Wilders are from the predominantly catholic, border regions of Holland, where immigrant numbers are lowest.

    It was a victory for scaremongering.
    New York and London are success stories for the integration and assimilation of cultures, not multiculturalism.

    Could you explain the subtleties to me, please?


  • #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Badgermonkey wrote: »
    The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

    Popular =/= right/correct/fact


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  • #52
    Badgermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Nodin wrote: »
    Popular =/= right/correct/fact

    If you wish to draw that conclusion that is your choice.


  • #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Badgermonkey wrote: »
    If you wish to draw that conclusion that is your choice.

    No, tis true. The world can believe that gravity doesn't exist but that makes no odds to the existence of gravity.


  • #54
    eilo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭eilo1


    Id disagree that London is a good example of multiculturalism.

    I lived there for a number of years and found there to be very little interaction between the differnet cultures. Neighbors and shop keepers from certain ethnic origins where never friendly or polite. There was very little interaction between the various cultures.

    I have no real problem with immegration although I dont see many benefits for the host country unless there is a employment need.

    I do however have a promblem with some aspects of Sharia law and I feel its important for anyone moving country to respect the law of the host nation and not try to change or influence those laws becaus of religious beliefs.


  • #55
    twinQuins
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    eilo1 wrote: »
    I do however have a promblem with some aspects of Sharia law and I feel its important for anyone moving country to respect the law of the host nation and not try to change or influence those laws becaus of religious beliefs.

    Just want to point out that Sharia Law doesn't supercede national law, where it's practiced in European countries.


  • #56
    LondonIrish90
    Closed Accounts Posts: 882 ✭✭✭LondonIrish90


    So we now have Merkel, Sarkozy and Cameron all saying the same thing. 3 big guns in European politics, lets hope something starts to be done about the problems we now face in England, France and other nations as a result of the failed multicultural experiment.


  • #57
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Qu♊n♊ne wrote: »
    Just want to point out that Sharia Law doesn't supercede national law, where it's practiced in European countries.

    Youre absolutely correct but youre going to have to explain it more clearly to the pitchfork wielding masses...........
    wrote: »
    LondonIrish ..............the problems we now face in England, France and other nations as a result of the failed multicultural experiment.

    Oh the Ironing


  • #58
    eilo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭eilo1


    I know that but there have been contriversies in other countries on this topic and I would not like to see it here.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4749183.ece

    here is an example, its not nessesarily a negative thing, but why should we spend money reforming the legal system to suit a religion.


  • #59
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Under the act, the sharia courts are classified as arbitration tribunals. The rulings of arbitration tribunals are binding in law, provided that both parties in the dispute agree to give it the power to rule on their case.

    And the problem is ?
    eilo1 wrote: »
    why should we spend money reforming the legal system to suit a religion.

    Why does it need to cost anything ?


  • #60
    eilo1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭eilo1


    The rulings of arbitration tribunals

    Why does it need to cost anything ?[/QUOTE]

    Arbitation tribunals dont come cheap, it would all have to legally sanctioned.
    Meaning laywers, money,media blah blah blah


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  • #61
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    eilo1 wrote: »
    Arbitation tribunals dont come cheap, it would all have to legally sanctioned. Meaning laywers, money,media blah blah blah

    But disputes need to be resolved whether in arbitration tribunals (Sharia or otherwise) or more formally (i.e. expensively) in the regular court system :confused:

    Is there any reason why Sharia arbitration should be more expensive than any other kind ?


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