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Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

  • 12-02-2011 11:36AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 319 ✭✭


    I think a lot of people already knew this anyway..

    The Irish Times - Saturday, February 12, 2011

    FRENCH PRESIDENT Nicolas Sarkozy has declared multiculturalism a failure and has taken issue with Muslims praying on the streets of French cities.
    In a televised exchange with selected voters, aimed at setting out his plans for the year ahead, Mr Sarkozy echoed the recent critiques of multiculturalism by British prime minister David Cameron and German chancellor Angela Merkel.
    “It’s a failure,” he said. “The truth is that in all our democracies, we’ve been too concerned about the identity of the new arrivals and not enough about the identity of the country receiving them. This raises the issue of Islam and our Muslim compatriots.
    “Our Muslim compatriots should be able to live and practise their religion like anyone else . . . but it can only be a French Islam and not just an Islam in France.”
    Mr Sarkozy’s public approval ratings have held constant at about 30 per cent for the past year and cracks have begun to appear in the centre-right coalition that ensured his victory in 2007.
    With a presidential election due next year, his UMP party has been unsettled by the improved standing of the far-right National Front under its new leader, Marine Le Pen.
    The president’s remarks came just days after Ms Le Pen congratulated Mr Cameron on his criticism of multiculturalism, claiming it was an endorsement of her party’s position.
    In a wide-ranging TV interview watched by 8.2 million people, Mr Sarkozy also echoed Ms Le Pen’s controversial remarks about Muslims praying on the streets of French cities. She compared the sight to an occupation, which was widely interpreted as a reference to the second World War.
    “In France we don’t want people to pray in an ostentatious manner in the street. Prayer offends no one but we do not want . . . aggressive religious proselytising,” he said.
    The president’s remarks on multiculturalism raised confusion yesterday, as France sees itself as having implicitly rejected the live-and-let-live model by insisting on assimilation of immigrants in the state system and the rejection of religion in the secular public sphere.
    While Germany and Britain have been relatively flexible about minorities’ cultural practices, France has banned headscarves in schools and is about to introduce a separate ban on face veils in all public places.
    A group representing French people of African origin called on Mr Sarkozy yesterday to explain his statement.
    “The diversity of French society, especially its religious diversity, cannot be a failure because this diversity is France itself,” Patrick Lozès, head of the Representative Council of Black Associations, said.
    Mr Sarkozy broke a mainstream political taboo last summer when he explicitly linked immigration and crime. In the TV interview, he acknowledged his government had not done enough on juvenile delinquency.
    On the controversy over French ministers’ holidays in north Africa, which have provoked rows over the government’s close connections to autocratic Arab regimes, Mr Sarkozy said “not a cent of public money was misused”, but he accepted the revelations about foreign leaders’ hospitality could “shock” the public.


«134

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,556 ✭✭✭Nolanger


    He's right, pity none of our spineless, politically-correct, and left-wing politicians will say this.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 821 ✭✭✭temply


    Nolanger wrote: »
    He's right, pity none of our spineless, politically-correct, and left-wing politicians will say this.


    yup i agree

    he's spot on!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices? They aren't breaking any laws, they aren't causing any problems that I can tell from the article. This comes off as "they're different, git 'em bubba" brand of nationalism. I mean what, is he afraid he'll catch teh muslim from them?

    Of course the truth is that M Sarkozy is in deep trouble with his own electorate and is grabbing at any scapegoat straw to divert attention. Last week he was warbling about the Irish corporation tax rate.

    http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images/e/e5/Digem.png


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices? They aren't breaking any laws, they aren't causing any problems that I can tell from the article. This comes off as "they're different, git 'em bubba" brand of nationalism. I mean what, is he afraid he'll catch teh muslim from them?

    Of course the truth is that M Sarkozy is in deep trouble with his own electorate and is grabbing at any scapegoat straw to divert attention. Last week he was warbling about the Irish corporation tax rate.

    http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images/e/e5/Digem.png


    Sark is in bother, but there is still a good point here. There are elements of immigrant society who utterly refuse to integrate, and this has been a growing problem for a number of years now. The fact that the discussion on the matter has moved ahead of PC criticism I think indicates how troubled many people are, and it is not simply a intolerance of what's different.



    You may also be interested in the Dispatches documentary (C4, England), if you have a little time. Open in YouTube to see the remaining parts.:



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices?

    Why have the religious sought to impose their values on citizens who do not share their beliefs?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Cheap Thrills!


    That's stating the obvious.

    Multiculturalism IS a failure.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    JohnathanM wrote: »
    You may also be interested in the Dispatches documentary (C4, England), if you have a little time. Open in YouTube to see the remaining parts.:
    You have to wonder though, is Sarkozy contributing more to radicalisation with his comments, than producing any constructive result? Integration is important, but you don't achieve that by demonising French citizens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    France has never engaged Multi-culturalism. So another blatant attempt by Sarkozy to try and save him self from his failures.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Why is integration important?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,789 ✭✭✭Caoimhín


    Riamfada wrote: »
    Why is integration important?

    Without integration communities become more ghettoised, insular and disconnected with the rest of the population. Human nature, being as it is, often leads to a "them and us" mentality in the different communities, this can breed mistrust and irrational hatreds.

    In an ideal world we would all love and respect each other but unfortunately this is not the case and we cant all go on living in a dream world.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    You have to wonder though, is Sarkozy contributing more to radicalisation with his comments, than producing any constructive result? Integration is important, but you don't achieve that by demonising French citizens.

    I see what you're getting at, but I don't think it is demonising a group to highlight their behaviour as incorrect (particularly within such a secular society). Appeasement here simply won't work as they'll just carry on doing it, and when dealing with people's heartfelt beliefs in an imaginary friend reason is a non-starter too.

    The fact that Srakozy hopes to benefit from his comments indicates that a large proportion of the French are inclined to agree with him. If the requirement that their religion not be imposed upon the public leads to radicalisation, that will only help Sarkozy or those who follow.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Ive never seen a Muslim praying in the street. Ive encountered various christian types doing so. Some were harmless enough but others were using loudspeakers in residential areas where shift workers lived. Oddly this sort of anti social behaviour is widely ignored by the Police :mad:
    JohnathanM wrote: »
    There are elements of immigrant society who utterly refuse to integrate,

    I do wish people would make up their minds on whether these threads are about Immigrants or Muslims


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Ive never seen a Muslim praying in the street. Ive encountered various christian types doing so. Some were harmless enough but others were using loudspeakers in residential areas where shift workers lived. Oddly this sort of anti social behaviour is widely ignored by the Police :mad:
    :eek:

    bloody shift workers, you would think they would all live in estates specifically for themselves


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,228 ✭✭✭epgc3fyqirnbsx


    He's dead right. Still a bit of a bollox though...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    So how do we fix it?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Interesting article, 'The future of Islamic Ireland' in todays Irish Times.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0212/1224289614194.html


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    Odd. David Cameron said exactly the same thing about multiculturalism failing in Britain at a news conference in Berlin last week. Wonder where they're going with this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Interesting article, 'The future of Islamic Ireland' in todays Irish Times.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0212/1224289614194.html

    why a woman would willingly convert to islam is completely beyond me.

    turkey christmas and voting springs to mind :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    Whilst I don't like Sarkosy and I feel that he is cynically pandering to the right wing element in French society with a view to holding onto his power as President with election next year, he is now the third leader of a major European country to question multiculturalism, after Merkel and Cameron.

    I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.

    We hold secular values in the West and if Islamic immigrants don't like it, then they can leave. I don't mean to sound xenophobic but we have to defend an uphold out values of tolerance. However, we cannot tolerate naked intolerance.

    I mean, you have extreme elements in Islamic communities in Europe calling for the destruction of the West and all it stands for and advocating terrorist murder, "honour" killings, marital rape and the murder of gay people. This is simply not acceptable.

    Just yesterday evening in Stoneybatter I saw two women in the nijab -or whatever the black garment that only leaves slits for the eyes is called. Basically a tiny step away from the Burqua. I did not feel comfortable and I have every right to question why a commubnity exists in my country that refuses to integrate and indeed despises my society quite openly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.
    .

    Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
    1) All Muslims are immigrants
    2) All Muslims are extremists

    If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 410 ✭✭JohnathanM


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

    Indeed, so it is just as well that JupiterKid did not actually make any kind of similar comparison.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
    1) All Muslims are immigrants
    2) All Muslims are extremists

    If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

    well the KKK are anti-catholic so i don't think anyone would make that statement in the first place


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    aDeener wrote: »
    well the KKK are anti-catholic so i don't think anyone would make that statement in the first place

    Didnt they start admitting RC members in the 1960's or am I mixing them up with the Klux Ku Klan <Insert Life of Brian reference>


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Why have the religious sought to impose their values on citizens who do not share their beliefs?

    How do they impose? Just by practicing?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    Whilst I don't like Sarkosy and I feel that he is cynically pandering to the right wing element in French society with a view to holding onto his power as President with election next year, he is now the third leader of a major European country to question multiculturalism, after Merkel and Cameron.

    I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.

    We hold secular values in the West and if Islamic immigrants don't like it, then they can leave. I don't mean to sound xenophobic but we have to defend an uphold out values of tolerance. However, we cannot tolerate naked intolerance.

    I mean, you have extreme elements in Islamic communities in Europe calling for the destruction of the West and all it stands for and advocating terrorist murder, "honour" killings, marital rape and the murder of gay people. This is simply not acceptable.

    Just yesterday evening in Stoneybatter I saw two women in the nijab -or whatever the black garment that only leaves slits for the eyes is called
    . Basically a tiny step away from the Burqua. I did not feel comfortable and I have every right to question why a commubnity exists in my country that refuses to integrate and indeed despises my society quite openly.

    Have you heard of the Irish blasphemy law?
    What if they want to wear it of their own choice? People do have a right to be morons!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,404 ✭✭✭Lone Stone


    I dont know if it has failed, i have a few friends who arent irish we get on great they have integrated great, Its the older generation that try to impose their views and ways granted this rubs off on the kids so they will try to push this eventually, but most get to grow up see'ing both ways of life and most people tend to conform with the majority.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,619 ✭✭✭fontanalis


    Lone Stone wrote: »
    I dont know it has failed, i have a few friends who arent irish we get on great they have integrated great, Its the older generation that try to impose their views and ways granted this rubs off on the kids so they will try to push this eventually, but most get to grow up see'ing both ways of life and most people tend to conform with the majority.

    I'd love to hear someones definition of integration aswell; I guarantee if a few foreign people got involved in local community/politics (as integrataed as you can get in my imho) the next complaint would be foreigners telling irish people what to do.

    And before I get accused of being pc by people insecure of their culture (if they know what theirs is), I think immigration should always be on the terms of the host country. Ireland can't have a three tier law system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,992 ✭✭✭✭partyatmygaff


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
    1) All Muslims are immigrants
    2) All Muslims are extremists

    If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.
    The majority of Muslims in the Western world ARE immigrants so that's a somewhat valid assumption.

    Not all Muslims are extremists but most extremists who refuse to integrate just so happen to be Muslims. There's no point in denying it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,018 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Roger Scruton on Immigration, Multiculturalism and the Need to Defend the Nation State.

    'Although religion has been an important part of European identity, it was gradually, under the influence of the Enlightenment, pushed into the background by nationality, and subsequently by the rise of the nation state. And it is thanks to the nation state that we enjoy the freedoms and secular jurisdictions that are so attractive to immigrants – and especially to those immigrants who define their pre-political membership in religious, rather than national, terms. For national loyalty is a form of neighbourliness: it is loyalty to a shared home and to the people who have built it. It makes no specific demands of a religious or ideological nature, and is content with a common obedience to a secular rule of law, and a common sense of belonging to the land, its customs and its habits of peaceful coexistence.'

    Source:

    http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1126


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    The majority of Muslims in the Western world ARE immigrants so that's a somewhat valid assumption. .

    In Ireland the majority of Muslims may be immigrants in France/Germany or even Britain youd need to provide some figures to back this up. Either way its still not a valid assumption.


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