Sarkozy denounces multiculturalism as 'a failure'

Ban Ki Moon

I think a lot of people already knew this anyway..

The Irish Times - Saturday, February 12, 2011

FRENCH PRESIDENT Nicolas Sarkozy has declared multiculturalism a failure and has taken issue with Muslims praying on the streets of French cities.
In a televised exchange with selected voters, aimed at setting out his plans for the year ahead, Mr Sarkozy echoed the recent critiques of multiculturalism by British prime minister David Cameron and German chancellor Angela Merkel.
“It’s a failure,” he said. “The truth is that in all our democracies, we’ve been too concerned about the identity of the new arrivals and not enough about the identity of the country receiving them. This raises the issue of Islam and our Muslim compatriots.
“Our Muslim compatriots should be able to live and practise their religion like anyone else . . . but it can only be a French Islam and not just an Islam in France.”
Mr Sarkozy’s public approval ratings have held constant at about 30 per cent for the past year and cracks have begun to appear in the centre-right coalition that ensured his victory in 2007.
With a presidential election due next year, his UMP party has been unsettled by the improved standing of the far-right National Front under its new leader, Marine Le Pen.
The president’s remarks came just days after Ms Le Pen congratulated Mr Cameron on his criticism of multiculturalism, claiming it was an endorsement of her party’s position.
In a wide-ranging TV interview watched by 8.2 million people, Mr Sarkozy also echoed Ms Le Pen’s controversial remarks about Muslims praying on the streets of French cities. She compared the sight to an occupation, which was widely interpreted as a reference to the second World War.
“In France we don’t want people to pray in an ostentatious manner in the street. Prayer offends no one but we do not want . . . aggressive religious proselytising,” he said.
The president’s remarks on multiculturalism raised confusion yesterday, as France sees itself as having implicitly rejected the live-and-let-live model by insisting on assimilation of immigrants in the state system and the rejection of religion in the secular public sphere.
While Germany and Britain have been relatively flexible about minorities’ cultural practices, France has banned headscarves in schools and is about to introduce a separate ban on face veils in all public places.
A group representing French people of African origin called on Mr Sarkozy yesterday to explain his statement.
“The diversity of French society, especially its religious diversity, cannot be a failure because this diversity is France itself,” Patrick Lozès, head of the Representative Council of Black Associations, said.
Mr Sarkozy broke a mainstream political taboo last summer when he explicitly linked immigration and crime. In the TV interview, he acknowledged his government had not done enough on juvenile delinquency.
On the controversy over French ministers’ holidays in north Africa, which have provoked rows over the government’s close connections to autocratic Arab regimes, Mr Sarkozy said “not a cent of public money was misused”, but he accepted the revelations about foreign leaders’ hospitality could “shock” the public.

Nolanger

He's right, pity none of our spineless, politically-correct, and left-wing politicians will say this.

temply

Nolanger wrote: »

He's right, pity none of our spineless, politically-correct, and left-wing politicians will say this.

yup i agree

he's spot on!

Amhran Nua

Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices? They aren't breaking any laws, they aren't causing any problems that I can tell from the article. This comes off as "they're different, git 'em bubba" brand of nationalism. I mean what, is he afraid he'll catch teh muslim from them?

Of course the truth is that M Sarkozy is in deep trouble with his own electorate and is grabbing at any scapegoat straw to divert attention. Last week he was warbling about the Irish corporation tax rate.

http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images/e/e5/Digem.png

JohnathanM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices? They aren't breaking any laws, they aren't causing any problems that I can tell from the article. This comes off as "they're different, git 'em bubba" brand of nationalism. I mean what, is he afraid he'll catch teh muslim from them?

Of course the truth is that M Sarkozy is in deep trouble with his own electorate and is grabbing at any scapegoat straw to divert attention. Last week he was warbling about the Irish corporation tax rate.

http://images.wikia.com/familyguy/images/e/e5/Digem.png

Sark is in bother, but there is still a good point here. There are elements of immigrant society who utterly refuse to integrate, and this has been a growing problem for a number of years now. The fact that the discussion on the matter has moved ahead of PC criticism I think indicates how troubled many people are, and it is not simply a intolerance of what's different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNIKz9b8FAA

You may also be interested in the Dispatches documentary (C4, England), if you have a little time. Open in YouTube to see the remaining parts.:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnHi7SK6Qbg

Badgermonkey

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Why? What reason has a politician got to interfere with their religious practices?

Why have the religious sought to impose their values on citizens who do not share their beliefs?

Cheap Thrills!

That's stating the obvious.

Multiculturalism IS a failure.

Amhran Nua

JohnathanM wrote: »

You may also be interested in the Dispatches documentary (C4, England), if you have a little time. Open in YouTube to see the remaining parts.:

You have to wonder though, is Sarkozy contributing more to radicalisation with his comments, than producing any constructive result? Integration is important, but you don't achieve that by demonising French citizens.

wes

France has never engaged Multi-culturalism. So another blatant attempt by Sarkozy to try and save him self from his failures.

Riamfada

Why is integration important?

Caoimhín

Riamfada wrote: »

Why is integration important?

Without integration communities become more ghettoised, insular and disconnected with the rest of the population. Human nature, being as it is, often leads to a "them and us" mentality in the different communities, this can breed mistrust and irrational hatreds.

In an ideal world we would all love and respect each other but unfortunately this is not the case and we cant all go on living in a dream world.

JohnathanM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

You have to wonder though, is Sarkozy contributing more to radicalisation with his comments, than producing any constructive result? Integration is important, but you don't achieve that by demonising French citizens.

I see what you're getting at, but I don't think it is demonising a group to highlight their behaviour as incorrect (particularly within such a secular society). Appeasement here simply won't work as they'll just carry on doing it, and when dealing with people's heartfelt beliefs in an imaginary friend reason is a non-starter too.

The fact that Srakozy hopes to benefit from his comments indicates that a large proportion of the French are inclined to agree with him. If the requirement that their religion not be imposed upon the public leads to radicalisation, that will only help Sarkozy or those who follow.

Mike 1972

Ive never seen a Muslim praying in the street. Ive encountered various christian types doing so. Some were harmless enough but others were using loudspeakers in residential areas where shift workers lived. Oddly this sort of anti social behaviour is widely ignored by the Police :mad:

JohnathanM wrote: »

There are elements of immigrant society who utterly refuse to integrate,

I do wish people would make up their minds on whether these threads are about Immigrants or Muslims

aDeener

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Ive never seen a Muslim praying in the street. Ive encountered various christian types doing so. Some were harmless enough but others were using loudspeakers in residential areas where shift workers lived. Oddly this sort of anti social behaviour is widely ignored by the Police :mad:

:eek:

bloody shift workers, you would think they would all live in estates specifically for themselves

epgc3fyqirnbsx

He's dead right. Still a bit of a bollox though...

MagicMarker

So how do we fix it?

Badgermonkey

Interesting article, 'The future of Islamic Ireland' in todays Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0212/1224289614194.html

david75

Odd. David Cameron said exactly the same thing about multiculturalism failing in Britain at a news conference in Berlin last week. Wonder where they're going with this?

aDeener

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Interesting article, 'The future of Islamic Ireland' in todays Irish Times.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0212/1224289614194.html

why a woman would willingly convert to islam is completely beyond me.

turkey christmas and voting springs to mind

JupiterKid

Whilst I don't like Sarkosy and I feel that he is cynically pandering to the right wing element in French society with a view to holding onto his power as President with election next year, he is now the third leader of a major European country to question multiculturalism, after Merkel and Cameron.

I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.

We hold secular values in the West and if Islamic immigrants don't like it, then they can leave. I don't mean to sound xenophobic but we have to defend an uphold out values of tolerance. However, we cannot tolerate naked intolerance.

I mean, you have extreme elements in Islamic communities in Europe calling for the destruction of the West and all it stands for and advocating terrorist murder, "honour" killings, marital rape and the murder of gay people. This is simply not acceptable.

Just yesterday evening in Stoneybatter I saw two women in the nijab -or whatever the black garment that only leaves slits for the eyes is called. Basically a tiny step away from the Burqua. I did not feel comfortable and I have every right to question why a commubnity exists in my country that refuses to integrate and indeed despises my society quite openly.

Mike 1972

JupiterKid wrote: »

I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.
.

Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
1) All Muslims are immigrants
2) All Muslims are extremists

If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

JohnathanM

Mike 1972 wrote: »

If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

Indeed, so it is just as well that JupiterKid did not actually make any kind of similar comparison.

aDeener

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
1) All Muslims are immigrants
2) All Muslims are extremists

If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

well the KKK are anti-catholic so i don't think anyone would make that statement in the first place

Mike 1972

aDeener wrote: »

well the KKK are anti-catholic so i don't think anyone would make that statement in the first place

Didnt they start admitting RC members in the 1960's or am I mixing them up with the Klux Ku Klan <Insert Life of Brian reference>

fontanalis

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Why have the religious sought to impose their values on citizens who do not share their beliefs?

How do they impose? Just by practicing?

fontanalis

JupiterKid wrote: »

Whilst I don't like Sarkosy and I feel that he is cynically pandering to the right wing element in French society with a view to holding onto his power as President with election next year, he is now the third leader of a major European country to question multiculturalism, after Merkel and Cameron.

I also believe that multicultural policy has failed. Immigrants of a particular religious grouping are simply not integrating. And let's call it as it is and no dancing around the fact - it's Islam and Islamic communities that seem to be the most problematic with integrating into their host societies.

We hold secular values in the West and if Islamic immigrants don't like it, then they can leave. I don't mean to sound xenophobic but we have to defend an uphold out values of tolerance. However, we cannot tolerate naked intolerance.

I mean, you have extreme elements in Islamic communities in Europe calling for the destruction of the West and all it stands for and advocating terrorist murder, "honour" killings, marital rape and the murder of gay people. This is simply not acceptable.

Just yesterday evening in Stoneybatter I saw two women in the nijab -or whatever the black garment that only leaves slits for the eyes is called. Basically a tiny step away from the Burqua. I did not feel comfortable and I have every right to question why a commubnity exists in my country that refuses to integrate and indeed despises my society quite openly.

Have you heard of the Irish blasphemy law?
What if they want to wear it of their own choice? People do have a right to be morons!

Lone Stone

I dont know if it has failed, i have a few friends who arent irish we get on great they have integrated great, Its the older generation that try to impose their views and ways granted this rubs off on the kids so they will try to push this eventually, but most get to grow up see'ing both ways of life and most people tend to conform with the majority.

fontanalis

Lone Stone wrote: »

I dont know it has failed, i have a few friends who arent irish we get on great they have integrated great, Its the older generation that try to impose their views and ways granted this rubs off on the kids so they will try to push this eventually, but most get to grow up see'ing both ways of life and most people tend to conform with the majority.

I'd love to hear someones definition of integration aswell; I guarantee if a few foreign people got involved in local community/politics (as integrataed as you can get in my imho) the next complaint would be foreigners telling irish people what to do.

And before I get accused of being pc by people insecure of their culture (if they know what theirs is), I think immigration should always be on the terms of the host country. Ireland can't have a three tier law system.

partyatmygaff

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Your post is based on two flawed assumptions
1) All Muslims are immigrants
2) All Muslims are extremists

If one were to spout the notion that all Christians were card carrying members of the Ku Klux Klan one would be quite widely derided (even in AH) but this Daily-Mail shyte about all Muslims being infidel-beheading, adulterer-stoning terrorist lunatics regularly goes almost unchallenged.

The majority of Muslims in the Western world ARE immigrants so that's a somewhat valid assumption.

Not all Muslims are extremists but most extremists who refuse to integrate just so happen to be Muslims. There's no point in denying it.

Badgermonkey

Roger Scruton on Immigration, Multiculturalism and the Need to Defend the Nation State.

'Although religion has been an important part of European identity, it was gradually, under the influence of the Enlightenment, pushed into the background by nationality, and subsequently by the rise of the nation state. And it is thanks to the nation state that we enjoy the freedoms and secular jurisdictions that are so attractive to immigrants – and especially to those immigrants who define their pre-political membership in religious, rather than national, terms. For national loyalty is a form of neighbourliness: it is loyalty to a shared home and to the people who have built it. It makes no specific demands of a religious or ideological nature, and is content with a common obedience to a secular rule of law, and a common sense of belonging to the land, its customs and its habits of peaceful coexistence.'

Source:

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1126

Mike 1972

partyatmygaff wrote: »

The majority of Muslims in the Western world ARE immigrants so that's a somewhat valid assumption. .

In Ireland the majority of Muslims may be immigrants in France/Germany or even Britain youd need to provide some figures to back this up. Either way its still not a valid assumption.

partyatmygaff

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In Ireland the majority of Muslims may be immigrants in France/Germany or even Britain youd need to provide some figures to back this up. Either way its still not a valid assumption.

They may be second or third generation immigrants but if they refuse to integrate then they are still "immigrants" in the eyes of society which at the end of the day is what matters.

WindSock

wes wrote: »

France has never engaged Multi-culturalism. So another blatant attempt by Sarkozy to try and save him self from his failures.

Indeed, I think he must have been a bit Sarkoztic.

twinQuins

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not all Muslims are extremists but most extremists who refuse to integrate just so happen to be Muslims.

But the way it's phrased often suggests the opposite: that all, or a majority, of Muslims are extremists or that Muslims and Islam in general are to be feared.

When people are marginalised like that is it any wonder they become extremists?
It's been pointed out on the same thread in Politics that France took immigrants in with the expectation that they would be short-term workers and when they didn't leave the fact that they weren't prepared to deal with them became a problem.

You can talk about how in Europe we've supposedly outgrown religion but really it's just been pushed underground, so to speak. How often are our own religious groups appeased against more egalitarian principles?
It may no longer be overt but that doesn't mean it's not there, it's just more subtle and insidious.

Mike 1972

partyatmygaff wrote: »

if they refuse to integrate then they are still "immigrants" in the eyes of society.

In that case society is wrong.

Besides you havent actually defined "integrate" indeed people spout this phrase "multiculturalism" without defining exactly what it is supposed to mean. Cameron's claims that "*multiculturalism has failed" are particularly odd given that he is the prime minister of a country which has been based on multiculturalism for hundreds of years namely the United Kingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and that other place.........

* =possibly paraphrasing

greendom

david75 wrote: »

Odd. David Cameron said exactly the same thing about multiculturalism failing in Britain at a news conference in Berlin last week. Wonder where they're going with this?

Yes and Angela Merkel said almost exactly the same thing last October. Is it to do with Turkey ?

smegmar

Ban Ki Moon wrote: »

it can only be a French Islam and not just an Islam in France.”

exactly right. When other cultures immigrate to another country they need to understand that they must adapt to suit the locality not the other way around. If this continues the way it is there will be no distinct unique cultures, all will be nullified and coalesce into one global generic cultural-less uniformity.

We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

Grasshoppa

An interesting article on Muslims and integration in France (using the burqa ban as a platform)...

http://durkadurkistan.wordpress.com/2010/07/26/burqas-and-banlieues-disguising-frances-integration-problems/

Badgermonkey

fontanalis wrote: »

How do they impose? Just by practicing?

No, that would be sheer intolerance.

The catholic church has had a profound influence on the formulation of social policy, health, education and even external relations since the foundation of the state.

'From early 1937 Eamonn de Valera was bombarded with letters daily - sometimes twice a day - from Fr. John McQuaid C.S.Sp. They were crammed with suggestions, viewpoints, documents and learned references on nearly every aspect on what was to become Bunreacht na hEireann - the Constitution of Ireland. McQuaid was the persistent adviser, 'one of the great architects of the Constitution, albeith in the shadows'.

From John Cooney's "John Charles McQuaid, Ruler of Catholic Ireland".

fontanalis

smegmar wrote: »

exactly right. When other cultures immigrate to another country they need to understand that they must adapt to suit the locality not the other way around. If this continues the way it is there will be no distinct unique cultures, all will be nullified and coalesce into one global generic cultural-less uniformity.

We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

Irish culture is under more threat from Irish indifference and in some cases even hostility.

strobe

What do you people think the alternative to multiculturalism is? Dress everyone up in big grey overalls in case some one runs around looking all different and weird and scary? Form some kind of new state approved way of talking, we can call it, ohh I dunno, Newspeak or something, so that we don't have people speaking like for'ners and making the bitter old men nervous. That kind of thing?

Seriously now kids. It would be grand if everyone was just like you, cause you are so great and all, but it's not realistic. It's make believe, faery tale, pie in the sky stuff and it's dull. Dull and silly. It is pointless barking and rabbling about how things ought to be when you won't address how things are.

It's multiculturalism, Airstrip One, or state enforced conformity and isolation. They are the options.

partyatmygaff

Mike 1972 wrote: »

In that case society is wrong.

lol

Society is wrong. What a strange statement to make. Just because you disagree with society does not make them "wrong".

Besides you havent actually defined "integrate" indeed people spout this phrase "multiculturalism" without defining exactly what it is supposed to mean.

Simple really. Multiculturalism is the belief that several different cultures often with conflicting views can coexist peacefully and equitably with one another. There's no need to define something that people ought to know. This is a thread dedicated to discussing multiculturalism, there should be no need for definition.

As for "integration" that is being one with society. Not completely dumping your own original culture and values but adopting a reasonable "blend" if you will of the culture of both societies. Simply refusing to integrate and preferring to isolate yourself and to even scorn the society of the country in which you live is not on.

is Cameron's claims that "multiculturalism has failed" are a tad odd given that he is the prime minister of a country which has been based on multiculturalism for hundreds of years namely. the UnitedKingdom of England, Scotland, Wales, and that other place.........

You know perfectly well what he meant. England, Scotland, Wales and dare I say it (:pac:) Ireland have a lot in common in terms of culture. We have only very slight differences which have allowed us to at first co-exist relatively peacefully and nowadays they are at times indistinguishable from one another.

Grasshoppa

Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places.

If it doesn't work in France, then perhaps some of the blame lies at the feet of successive French governments.

fontanalis

strobe wrote: »

What do you people think the alternative to multiculturalism is? Dress everyone up in big grey overalls in case some one runs around looking all different and weird and scary? Form some kind of new state approved way of talking, we can call it, ohh I dunno, Newspeak or something, so that we don't have people speaking like for'ners and making the bitter old men nervous. That kind of thing?

Seriously now kids. It would be grand if everyone was just like you, cause you are so great and all, but it's not realistic. It's make believe, faery tale, pie in the sky stuff and it's dull. Dull and silly. It is pointless barking and rabbling about how things ought to be when you won't address how things are.

It's multiculturalism, Airstrip One, or state enforced conformity and isolation. They are the options.

No you see to be truly free you have to stop people from acting differently from you!

Grasshoppa

smegmar wrote: »

We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

So you'd agree we should ban all American and UK films and TV series, in order to protect our 'Irish culture'?

fontanalis

Grasshoppa wrote: »

So you'd agree we should ban all American and UK films and TV series, in order to protect our 'Irish culture'?

No, just TG4!

Nodin

smegmar wrote: »

..........
We need to be proud of our nations and our identity. protect them from dilution and keep our traditions alive.

Who is "we" and who would "we" be protecting ourselves against, might I ask?

Grasshoppa wrote:

..........
Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places..

Generally speaking, it does indeed. Not everybody gets on, but theres not blood on the streets either.

Grasshoppa wrote:

..........

If it doesn't work in France, then perhaps some of the blame lies at the feet of successive French governments. ..

They never tried it in France. I'd imagine he's slagging off the Brits. As the Germans denied citizenship to those 'not of German blood' until 10 or so years ago, they rather painted themselves into a corner on the issue.

Mike 1972

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Society is wrong. What a strange statement to make. Just because you disagree with society does not make them "wrong".

So society can never be wrong ? What strange ideas you have. I suppose burning witches, hanging homosexuals, enslaving foreigners, sending minorities to the gas chambers or indeed beheading infidels are all fine and dandy :rolleyes:

Badgermonkey

Grasshoppa wrote: »

Multiculturalism seems to work fine in New York, London, Amsterdam and a host of other places.

The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

New York and London are success stories for the integration and assimilation of cultures, not multiculturalism.

Grasshoppa

Badgermonkey wrote: »

The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

The people who voted for Geert Wilders are from the predominantly catholic, border regions of Holland, where immigrant numbers are lowest.

It was a victory for scaremongering.

New York and London are success stories for the integration and assimilation of cultures, not multiculturalism.

Could you explain the subtleties to me, please?

Nodin

Badgermonkey wrote: »

The Dutch immigration debate has had a real and substantial impact on national politics for a long period of time. The fact that Geert Wilders party, the PVV currently supports the government demonstrates the popular support for parties advocating a more restrictive immigration policy.

Popular =/= right/correct/fact