Is there complete separation of church and state in rep of Ireland ?

MungoMan · 11-02-2011 06:22PM #1

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

liah · 11-02-2011 06:23PM

As long as there's a Blasphemy law, I'm afraid the answer is no.

strobe · 11-02-2011 06:26PM

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" or the pope or any sun gods or whatever ?

No there is not, unfortunately.

Our constitution begins "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,"

byhookorbycrook · 11-02-2011 06:28PM

hospitals + nuns.

Debthree · 11-02-2011 06:29PM

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh sorry, you were serious? No, definitely not.

syklops · 11-02-2011 06:30PM

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Department of Education: Most primary and many secondary schools are still managed by the clergy in some form.

Department of Health: A large number of institutions have clergy helping to run them if not managing them.

All I can think of for now.

bonerm · 11-02-2011 06:31PM

I guess you didn't go to school in Ireland op?

MungoMan · 11-02-2011 06:32PM

strobe wrote: »

No there is not, unfortunately.

Our constitution begins "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,"

You cannot become President, a Judge or a member of the Council of State because you have to swear a religious oath to take office. Your freedom of conscience is not respected in the education system, either as a parent or as a teacher. If you attend court as a defendant or witness you have to potentially prejudice jurors against you (by refusing to swear a religious oath) in circumstances that could result in you losing your liberty.

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

Otacon · 11-02-2011 06:32PM

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

Jake Rugby Walrus666 · 11-02-2011 06:34PM

They seem to have a lot of wealth and land. It should all be seized off them. They should be thrown on the side of the road.

Bizarrely the Irish tax payer had to fork out compensation to people who were raped by catholic church priests. Huge amounts of money.

Mark Hamill · 11-02-2011 06:35PM

MungoMan wrote: »

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Schools (>90%), hospitals. Most have catholic/christian ethos which (in the case of schools) allows for discrimination (can discriminate against potential employees and students, allocation of spaces gives preferences to christians).

MungoMan wrote: »

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

Yes, several articles in fact do:

Articles referring to God are: 6.1 (" All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people"); 44.1 ("The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion."); and the oaths prescribed for the President (12.8), the Council of State (31.4), and the Judiciary (34.5.1).

Not to mention the preamble:

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, (...) do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

In Ireland, you cant be president or a judge if you are atheist (possibly even non christian, I dont know how specific the oaths are)

prinz · 11-02-2011 06:36PM

Otacon wrote: »

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

Try living in Iran for a bit, come back and say that.

strobe · 11-02-2011 06:36PM

MungoMan wrote: »

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

The group 'Atheist Ireland' recently sent out e-mails to all the political parties and all the candidates running in the next general election addressing this issue. They asked questions about the party's/candidate's stances on secular (separation of church and state) issues. You can view their responses below.

http://www.atheist.ie/information/2011-general-election/

Sinn Fein and Labour seem to be the most secularly leaning parties.

MungoMan · 11-02-2011 06:37PM

bonerm wrote: »

I guess you didn't go to school in Ireland op?

I did, but it was 20 years ago......and clearly things have become much more secular, although maybe not as much as I thought.

Fratton Fred · 11-02-2011 06:42PM

Any one fancy a few beers in town on April 22nd?

Ghost Buster · 11-02-2011 06:44PM

MungoMan wrote: »

I did, but it was 20 years ago......and clearly things have become much more secular, although maybe not as much as I thought.

Seeing as church run institutions were allowed to rape something like a quarter of us and lock grown women up in laundries for no good reason, all with the collusion or at best a blind eye turned to it by law and state I would say no. And if any of you say this was the past guess what.... we are paying for a huge lump of their costs and legal fees stemming from cases brought against them and they are still allowed to run 92% of our schools.... thanks to our state.

strobe · 11-02-2011 06:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Any one fancy a few beers in town on April 22nd?

Discovery Day? Sure. You bring the samba playlist and I'll break out the Cachaca.

RichieC · 11-02-2011 06:47PM

I like the fact that a bronze age myth has such a stranglehold on our country.

It's quaint!

Morag · 11-02-2011 06:52PM

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

Wow just wow, ok now that I have stopped laughing and figured out your serious.

92% off all primary schools in the country are 'patronage' buy the roman catholic church, the running costs of the school is paid as a grant per child and the wages of all the staff members by the dept of education and those schools set their own biased enrolment policy which puts children baptised in the parish first then those from outside the parish and local kids who are not baptised last on the list.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

Each school is ran by the board of manage ment and the head of that is the parish priest.

Many of our hosptials were founded and run by holy orders.
The Mater hospital could not take part in drug trials for breast cancer as it would mean the women taking the drugs would have to be on contraception.
It is a catholic hospital so that went against it's ethos.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1003/hospital.html

We have crucifixes in the majority of schools and hospitals and we have had child abusers not prosecuted and left to their employer to sort out.

We are very very from the secular republic that the state was meant to be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland#Preamble_.28full_text.29

Preamble (full text)

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Morag · 11-02-2011 06:58PM

MungoMan wrote: »

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

Yes but most won't as they are afraid of loosing their conservative voting base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

The 5th amendment to the constitution removed these two

* Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.2:

The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

* Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.3:

The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.

The progressive democrats party when it was founded wanted to removed all the rest of the references to god in the constitution and sort out the rest of the separation of church and state but they got into coalition with FF and that was the end of that.

KeithAFC · 11-02-2011 07:00PM

Nope. I think the republic still has huge problems with the Roman Catholic church.

strobe · 11-02-2011 07:02PM

Just to mention. If you would like to do your part to ensure Ireland becomes a more secular nation.....There is a census coming up on Sunday 10th April 2011. The census contains a question asking what religion you are. In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?} but a lot of people just tick the box cause they did their confirmation when they were 12 or because they bring their grandmother to the church once a year on Christmas day etc whilst not believing any Catholic dogma or supporting the Vatican.

The Catholic church use these numbers to try and validate their continued influence over Irish society. Over our schools and hospitals and children.

If you are not a Catholic, then please do not tick the 'Roman Catholic' option out of habit. Please do not allow your spouse or parent to fill in the form and tick 'Roman Catholic' for you. If you are non-religious then tick 'no religion'. If you are a Christian but no longer follow Rome or the Catholic Church in Ireland then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' either as you are not one. If you believe 'there is something out there' but do not believe all the bizare stuff that the RCC come out with and preach then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' as you are not one.

Overheal · 11-02-2011 07:03PM

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

LOL

KeithAFC · 11-02-2011 07:08PM

strobe wrote: »

Just to mention. If you would like to do your part to ensure Ireland becomes a more secular nation.....There is a census coming up on Sunday 10th April 2011. The census contains a question asking what religion you are. In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?} but a lot of people just tick the box cause they did their confirmation when they were 12 or because they bring their grandmother to the church once a year on Christmas day etc whilst not believing any Catholic dogma or supporting the Vatican.

The Catholic church use these numbers to try and validate their continued influence over Irish society. Over our schools and hospitals and children.

If you are not a Catholic, then please do not tick the 'Roman Catholic' option out of habit. Please do not allow your spouse of parent to fill in the form and tick 'Roman Catholic' for you. If you are non-religious then tick 'no religion'. If you are a Christian but no longer follow Rome or the Catholic Church in Ireland then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' either as you are not one. If you believe 'there is something out there' but do not believe all the bizare stuff that the RCC come out with and preach then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' as you are not one.

Some people would put Catholic for political reasons if you know what i mean. Less catholics, it can look bad. So lets click it anyway.

Snakeblood · 11-02-2011 07:09PM

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

As long as the state is paying for the churches fingerbanging, I think separation is some way away.

strobe · 11-02-2011 07:09PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people would put Catholic for political reasons if you know what i mean. Less catholics, it can look bad. So lets click it anyway.

That's really only a concern up your neck of the woods Keith.

Pace2008 · 11-02-2011 07:10PM

strobe wrote: »

In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?}

To put is as clearly as possible:

Do 87% of people you know (under the age of 65) condemn homosexual relationships and the use of artificial contraception, and believe communion bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ during transubstantiation? Do 5%? Does anyone?

EDIT: this has just given me an idea.

In the interest of clarity, I think that they should place in brackets a brief description of each option under the religion section of the census.

So it'll read: Roman Catholic (I refuse to wear johnnies or have premarital sexual relations, and my gay friend is living in Sin).

Have at them, then.

KeithAFC · 11-02-2011 07:11PM

strobe wrote: »

That's really only a concern up your neck of the woods Keith.

We get the census too. I thought he meant in general.

Dudess · 11-02-2011 07:12PM

Baptised as Roman catholic though, which is definitely true for most of us here.

Otacon wrote: »

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

You know that's not true. Church and state here are not separate yet, but in-roads have been made - Ireland is not a theocracy. I would agree it was a borderline one 50 years ago, but there's no way there has not been significant change for the better.

Rented Mule · 11-02-2011 07:12PM

liah wrote: »

As long as there's a Blasphemy law, I'm afraid the answer is no.

As long as they are involved in the running of the schools, I'm afraid the answer is 'no'.

gurramok · 11-02-2011 07:37PM

We're a million miles away from been a truly secular state.

I got battered here before from a few religious posters when I brought up the issue of some hospitals having a Catholic ethos so i'll say a few Novena's for you MungoMan so they will not condemn you to eternal hell

Is there complete separation of church and state in rep of Ireland ?

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