Is there complete separation of church and state in rep of Ireland ?

MungoMan

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

liah

As long as there's a Blasphemy law, I'm afraid the answer is no.

strobe

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" or the pope or any sun gods or whatever ?

No there is not, unfortunately.

Our constitution begins "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,"

byhookorbycrook

hospitals + nuns.

Debthree

Ha ha ha ha ha.

Oh sorry, you were serious? No, definitely not.

syklops

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Department of Education: Most primary and many secondary schools are still managed by the clergy in some form.

Department of Health: A large number of institutions have clergy helping to run them if not managing them.

All I can think of for now.

bonerm

I guess you didn't go to school in Ireland op?

MungoMan

strobe wrote: »

No there is not, unfortunately.

Our constitution begins "In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,"

You cannot become President, a Judge or a member of the Council of State because you have to swear a religious oath to take office. Your freedom of conscience is not respected in the education system, either as a parent or as a teacher. If you attend court as a defendant or witness you have to potentially prejudice jurors against you (by refusing to swear a religious oath) in circumstances that could result in you losing your liberty.

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

Otacon

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

Jake Rugby Walrus666

They seem to have a lot of wealth and land. It should all be seized off them. They should be thrown on the side of the road.

Bizarrely the Irish tax payer had to fork out compensation to people who were raped by catholic church priests. Huge amounts of money.

Mark Hamill

MungoMan wrote: »

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Schools (>90%), hospitals. Most have catholic/christian ethos which (in the case of schools) allows for discrimination (can discriminate against potential employees and students, allocation of spaces gives preferences to christians).

MungoMan wrote: »

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

Yes, several articles in fact do:

Articles referring to God are: 6.1 (" All powers of government, legislative, executive and judicial, derive, under God, from the people"); 44.1 ("The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion."); and the oaths prescribed for the President (12.8), the Council of State (31.4), and the Judiciary (34.5.1).

Not to mention the preamble:

"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial, (...) do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution."

In Ireland, you cant be president or a judge if you are atheist (possibly even non christian, I dont know how specific the oaths are)

prinz

Otacon wrote: »

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

Try living in Iran for a bit, come back and say that.

strobe

MungoMan wrote: »

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

The group 'Atheist Ireland' recently sent out e-mails to all the political parties and all the candidates running in the next general election addressing this issue. They asked questions about the party's/candidate's stances on secular (separation of church and state) issues. You can view their responses below.

http://www.atheist.ie/information/2011-general-election/

Sinn Fein and Labour seem to be the most secularly leaning parties.

MungoMan

bonerm wrote: »

I guess you didn't go to school in Ireland op?

I did, but it was 20 years ago......and clearly things have become much more secular, although maybe not as much as I thought.

Fratton Fred

Any one fancy a few beers in town on April 22nd?

Ghost Buster

MungoMan wrote: »

I did, but it was 20 years ago......and clearly things have become much more secular, although maybe not as much as I thought.

Seeing as church run institutions were allowed to rape something like a quarter of us and lock grown women up in laundries for no good reason, all with the collusion or at best a blind eye turned to it by law and state I would say no. And if any of you say this was the past guess what.... we are paying for a huge lump of their costs and legal fees stemming from cases brought against them and they are still allowed to run 92% of our schools.... thanks to our state.

strobe

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Any one fancy a few beers in town on April 22nd?

Discovery Day? Sure. You bring the samba playlist and I'll break out the Cachaca.

RichieC

I like the fact that a bronze age myth has such a stranglehold on our country.

It's quaint!

Morag

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

Wow just wow, ok now that I have stopped laughing and figured out your serious.

92% off all primary schools in the country are 'patronage' buy the roman catholic church, the running costs of the school is paid as a grant per child and the wages of all the staff members by the dept of education and those schools set their own biased enrolment policy which puts children baptised in the parish first then those from outside the parish and local kids who are not baptised last on the list.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_primary_school/ownership_of_primary_schools.html

Each school is ran by the board of manage ment and the head of that is the parish priest.

Many of our hosptials were founded and run by holy orders.
The Mater hospital could not take part in drug trials for breast cancer as it would mean the women taking the drugs would have to be on contraception.
It is a catholic hospital so that went against it's ethos.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/1003/hospital.html

We have crucifixes in the majority of schools and hospitals and we have had child abusers not prosecuted and left to their employer to sort out.

We are very very from the secular republic that the state was meant to be.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland#Preamble_.28full_text.29

Preamble (full text)

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.

Morag

MungoMan wrote: »

Thanks.
Do any of the main political parties have policies to make things more secular, to amend the constitution to remove references to dieties, and to remove dieties from state institutions ?

Yes but most won't as they are afraid of loosing their conservative voting base.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

The 5th amendment to the constitution removed these two

* Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.2:

The State recognises the special position of the Holy Catholic Apostolic and Roman Church as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens.

* Deletion of the entirety of Article 44.1.3:

The State also recognises the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, as well as the Jewish Congregations and the other religious denominations existing in Ireland at the date of the coming into operation of this Constitution.

The progressive democrats party when it was founded wanted to removed all the rest of the references to god in the constitution and sort out the rest of the separation of church and state but they got into coalition with FF and that was the end of that.

KeithAFC

Nope. I think the republic still has huge problems with the Roman Catholic church.

strobe

Just to mention. If you would like to do your part to ensure Ireland becomes a more secular nation.....There is a census coming up on Sunday 10th April 2011. The census contains a question asking what religion you are. In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?} but a lot of people just tick the box cause they did their confirmation when they were 12 or because they bring their grandmother to the church once a year on Christmas day etc whilst not believing any Catholic dogma or supporting the Vatican.

The Catholic church use these numbers to try and validate their continued influence over Irish society. Over our schools and hospitals and children.

If you are not a Catholic, then please do not tick the 'Roman Catholic' option out of habit. Please do not allow your spouse or parent to fill in the form and tick 'Roman Catholic' for you. If you are non-religious then tick 'no religion'. If you are a Christian but no longer follow Rome or the Catholic Church in Ireland then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' either as you are not one. If you believe 'there is something out there' but do not believe all the bizare stuff that the RCC come out with and preach then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' as you are not one.

Overheal

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

LOL

KeithAFC

strobe wrote: »

Just to mention. If you would like to do your part to ensure Ireland becomes a more secular nation.....There is a census coming up on Sunday 10th April 2011. The census contains a question asking what religion you are. In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?} but a lot of people just tick the box cause they did their confirmation when they were 12 or because they bring their grandmother to the church once a year on Christmas day etc whilst not believing any Catholic dogma or supporting the Vatican.

The Catholic church use these numbers to try and validate their continued influence over Irish society. Over our schools and hospitals and children.

If you are not a Catholic, then please do not tick the 'Roman Catholic' option out of habit. Please do not allow your spouse of parent to fill in the form and tick 'Roman Catholic' for you. If you are non-religious then tick 'no religion'. If you are a Christian but no longer follow Rome or the Catholic Church in Ireland then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' either as you are not one. If you believe 'there is something out there' but do not believe all the bizare stuff that the RCC come out with and preach then do not tick 'Roman Catholic' as you are not one.

Some people would put Catholic for political reasons if you know what i mean. Less catholics, it can look bad. So lets click it anyway.

Snakeblood

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

As long as the state is paying for the churches fingerbanging, I think separation is some way away.

strobe

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people would put Catholic for political reasons if you know what i mean. Less catholics, it can look bad. So lets click it anyway.

That's really only a concern up your neck of the woods Keith.

Pace2008

strobe wrote: »

In the last census in 2006 ~3.7 millions people (that's 87% of the population) ticked the box marked 'Roman Catholic'. I believe that nowhere near 87% of the population of this country are Roman Catholics {are 87% of the people you know Catholic? I mean really Catholic?}

To put is as clearly as possible:

Do 87% of people you know (under the age of 65) condemn homosexual relationships and the use of artificial contraception, and believe communion bread and wine literally become the body and blood of Christ during transubstantiation? Do 5%? Does anyone?

EDIT: this has just given me an idea.

In the interest of clarity, I think that they should place in brackets a brief description of each option under the religion section of the census.

So it'll read: Roman Catholic (I refuse to wear johnnies or have premarital sexual relations, and my gay friend is living in Sin).

Have at them, then.

KeithAFC

strobe wrote: »

That's really only a concern up your neck of the woods Keith.

We get the census too. I thought he meant in general.

Dudess

Baptised as Roman catholic though, which is definitely true for most of us here.

Otacon wrote: »

We're about as secular as Iran TBH.

You know that's not true. Church and state here are not separate yet, but in-roads have been made - Ireland is not a theocracy. I would agree it was a borderline one 50 years ago, but there's no way there has not been significant change for the better.

Rented Mule

liah wrote: »

As long as there's a Blasphemy law, I'm afraid the answer is no.

As long as they are involved in the running of the schools, I'm afraid the answer is 'no'.

gurramok

We're a million miles away from been a truly secular state.

I got battered here before from a few religious posters when I brought up the issue of some hospitals having a Catholic ethos so i'll say a few Novena's for you MungoMan so they will not condemn you to eternal hell

My name is URL

I remember there was a discussion here a while back about RTE running the Angelus before the news and the majority of people seemed to be of the opinion that it was of little importance or even a real issue. That's hardly an indicator of people being ready for the complete separation between State and Church let alone being bothered enough to do anything about bringing it about.

Ghost Estate

it doesn't bother me a bit that there isn't.

but its funny to see the atheist crowd getting so worked up over it.

My name is URL

Ghost Estate wrote: »

it doesn't bother me a bit that there isn't.

but its funny to see the atheist crowd getting so worked up over it.

• 98% of Irish primary schools are under religious patronage. There should be an adequate choice in the range of primary and post-primary schools available in keeping with the increased diversity and changing nature of Irish society. The statutory option of withdrawing children from religious instruction in classes is difficult to exercise in practice, particularly in rural areas and where the curriculum is integrated as is the case in the primary schools.

• Legislative and policy changes are required to ensure that people of non-faith and from religious minorities are not deterred from training as teachers or taking up employment as teachers.

http://www.ihrc.ie/newsevents/press/2010/12/10/ihrc-says-ireland-scores-poorly-on-its-record-to-e/

The United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racism and Discrimination (CERD) will be monitoring Ireland’s record on this issue at meetings from 14 February to 11 March.

The CERD sees a link between racial and religious discrimination. In its last report on Ireland, in 2005, the CERD asked Ireland to establish more nonreligious schools and to ensure that pupils are not discriminated against because of their religion or lack of religion.

http://www.atheist.ie/2011/01/un-to-monitor-racial-and-religious-discrimination-in-irish-schools/

Ghost Estate

My name is URL wrote: »

http://www.ihrc.ie/newsevents/press/2010/12/10/ihrc-says-ireland-scores-poorly-on-its-record-to-e/



http://www.atheist.ie/2011/01/un-to-monitor-racial-and-religious-discrimination-in-irish-schools/

It never bothered me when I was going to school and that was in the good old days. Religious discrimination? never an issue. There was one muslim fella in my school and the sun shone out of his arse.

even if i had kids going to school I wouldn't give 2 shits. tis not as big of a deal as you seem to think. but then again i'm not in the 'z0mg, he`s being brainwashed! quick! phone Dawkins!' camp

darragh16

KeithAFC wrote: »

Some people would put Catholic for political reasons if you know what i mean.

Sure we're all catholic in some way...

As Dara O'Briain says "I'm atheist but still Catholic"

PeterIanStaker

The sooner all forms of religion are taken out of society, the better. Catholicism in particular has strangled this country and left more negative after effects than colonialism.

My name is URL

Ghost Estate wrote: »

It never bothered me when I was going to school and that was in the good old days. Religious discrimination? never an issue. There was one muslim fella in my school and the sun shone out of his arse.

even if i had kids going to school I wouldn't give 2 shits. tis not as big of a deal as you seem to think. but then again i'm not in the 'z0mg, he`s being brainwashed! quick! phone Dawkins!' camp

I'm usually against the militant atheism & Dawkins worship which you're talking about. The entanglement of schools and religion in Ireland is beyond reasonable though. My own relion teacher in post-primary school was also a Maths teacher. I remember people asking about atheism and agnosticism and being asked to leave class over it, (though admittedly they could have just being clowning around).

If one of those kids were raising legitimate questions regarding arithmetic or anything else, they certainly wouldn't have been asked to leave the class.

Morag

Ghost Estate wrote: »

It never bothered me when I was going to school and that was in the good old days. Religious discrimination? never an issue. There was one muslim fella in my school and the sun shone out of his arse.

even if i had kids going to school I wouldn't give 2 shits. tis not as big of a deal as you seem to think. but then again i'm not in the 'z0mg, he`s being brainwashed! quick! phone Dawkins!' camp

Thats nice but I have kids in the current system and we have had bullying and exclusion by kids and parents. Lets see if you have to spend time trying to comfort your crying child cos they have been told they are full of sin and that thier parent will be in hell if you still dont' give two ****s.

Ghost Estate

My name is URL wrote: »

I'm usually against the militant atheism & Dawkins worship which you're talking about. The entanglement of schools and religion in Ireland is beyond reasonable though. My own relion teacher in post-primary school was also a Maths teacher. I remember people asking about atheism and agnosticism and being asked to leave class over it, (though admittedly they could have just being clowning around).

If one of those kids were raising legitimate questions regarding arithmetic or anything else, they certainly wouldn't have been asked to leave the class.

if the teacher felt that they were clowning around it wouldn't surprise me.

Sharrow wrote: »

Thats nice but I have kids in the current system and we have had bullying and exclusion by kids and parents. Lets see if you have to spend time trying to comfort your crying child cos they have been told they are full of sin and that thier parent will be in hell if you still dont' give two ****s.

Well thats down to the particular people involved being arseholes, and if they are going to do that to your kids they would have done it regardless of religion. They'd have come up with some other boogeyman because they are intent on getting a rise out of your child.

Never had any of this problem here, it was actually when I went to school for a while in the model progressive EU state of the Netherlands that I was told I was going to hell.

Up de Barrs

Pace2008 wrote: »

In the interest of clarity, I think that they should place in brackets a brief description of each option under the religion section of the census.

So it'll read: Roman Catholic (I refuse to wear johnnies or have premarital sexual relations, and my gay friend is living in Sin).

Have at them, then.

If the question was put like that there are very few who would want to associate themselves with such ridiculous views but the reality of the need to get their children in to the local school means that every year thousands of parents are forced against their better judgement to do just that.
Far from being overly aggressive, securlarists in this country arent not aggressive enough. Access to education for non religious families hasnt even featured in the election campaign.

Morag

http://www.educatetogether.ie/election-2011/

MungoMan

Thanks for the replies. I hadn't realised that the religious authorities had such control over the schools (and some hospitals).

If there were political will to force every school to be secular (and have religious instruction done outside of the curriculum, and that religious instruction would be optional), how could this be done ?
The dilemma is that schools are owned by the religious authorities.....

Could the schools be forced to be secular ? Maybe a compulsary purchase order of the schools from the religious authorities ? OK, that's silly, the state couldn't afford that !

As far as I can see, the UK has the exact same issue, some schools are Catholic, some are Church of England etc........one Catholic school in Surrey, England where I used to live required proof that the parents went to Mass, and that the children were baptised etc......it was a popular school with good educational standards and it didnt have enough places to satisfy demand.

m@cc@

MungoMan wrote: »

It's obvious that the established churches in Ireland (Catholic, Church of Ireland etc etc) do not have much (if any) influence on the running of the state.

Are there any areas where the church still has influence ? Can anyone give any examples ? Are there any state institutions where the church has some influence ?

Is it true to say that there is complete separation between church and state in Ireland ?
In France, you often hear about "agressive secularism" where the state and church are very separate, has this happened in Ireland ?

Is there anything in the constitution which refers to "God" or "Budda" or "Allah" or "Jesus" "sun gods" or any established church ?

Do your own f***in' assignment!

MungoMan

m@cc@ wrote: »

Do your own f***in' assignment!

I'm not doing an assignment........I'm just trying to understand how separate church and state are in the republic.

JupiterKid

To answer he OP's question...sadly no, not by a long shot. Indeed Ireland has made huge strides for the better in the past 20 years in casting off the Vatican pall, but schools and hospitals are still in control by the Catholic church.

Indeed, I was in hospital just a month ago for a minor procedure and I was asked what religion I was.

Ireland really needs to address the religious stranglehold on our schools. This can't happen fast enough. The Angelus on our national TV and radio is clearly sectarian and shows how this country still has quite a distance to go yet.

Religion has been a curse on this country.

Fremen

You can tell we're still in the grip of the god-botherers when this guy gets appointed Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.

/kicks a puppy in anger

Irish_Elect_Eng

Separation of church and state is largely a myth in most countries that profess to have it.

Sure, nominally secular governments may not pray each morning before starting business for the day, their schools may not work under the ethos of a single religion or their public areas may have no symbols of religion.

But governments are made up of people and people have their beliefs, so each day their actions are guided by their beliefs and in that way society will always be affected by the religion/beliefs of their people. Here in Irelandwe have an Irish solution to an Irish problem, based on historical need and societal beliefs.

From my experience (and my children's) although only one religion is actively taught, no child is forced to study that religion. From a practical standpoint it is not possible to teach all religions, so the primary religion in the country is taught and others are treated with respect.

In my oldest child's class, there were 4 different religions represented and the teacher took the time to let each of the children explain their religion to the class and the class came to the conclusion that all the religions were the same 'except for the strange names' and that all the Gods l "made you be good" and "were mad if you were bad" I love the simplicity of children,we could learn from it.

I believe and stand to be corrected, that while the chaplaincy service of most of our hospitals are catholic or protestant as are the majority of patients, that most if not all of the hospital will arrange for visits from a cleric of choice for patients of different religions/beliefs on request.

Good health and wealth tend to see populations move away from spirituality, but I am always reminded of the sawing "There are no Atheists in Foxholes" perhaps that is why when the census comes around people answer that they are Roman Catholic/Christian, it takes more courage to actively denounce something that you really believe when the chips are down, than it does to passively dissent from aspects of your religion that you do not agree with.

We should not easily discard the role that the church has played in educating and healing the people of Ireland from ancient times, yes I agree, in recent times flogging would be more appropriate for some, but we cannot lightly discard our history and part of our culture. Are we not proud that Ireland was a beacon of knowledge in the dark ages, who has not looked on the book of Kells with awe? So now that our own religious are in their dark age should we abandon them? While I like many people have a problem with the church-state behavior in the past, and I do hope that it is in the past, I will not discard all the good men an women of the church with those that did evil and those that hid and condoned the behavior.

Let us move onwards and upwards, not separate, but together.:)

Sometimes I wish that I had an unquestioning faith either in religion or as an atheistic or as an agnostic, as some seem to do, but I do not, I struggle like most others, guided by my life experiences, parental guidance, society values and my own internal moral/beliefs....

Mike 1972

Up de Barrs wrote: »

If the question was put like that there are very few who would want to associate themselves with such ridiculous views but the reality of the need to get their children in to the local school means that every year thousands of parents are forced against their better judgement to do just that.

Schools have access to parents census returns ???

darragh16 wrote: »

As Dara O'Briain says "I'm atheist but still Catholic"

The God he doesnt believe in is represented by the Pope ?

Cybertron85

We have a Minister for science who doesn't believe in evolution.


ENOUGH SAID!

Irish_Elect_Eng

Cybertron85 wrote: »

We have a Minister for science who doesn't believe in evolution.


ENOUGH SAID!

Not true, I believe the correct statemetn is that we have a minister for Science that has a loony constituent who doesn't believe in evolution, and who doesn't have the good sense not to attend said constituents book-launch.:(

"The invitation to launch the book came from the author, who is a constituent and friend of the Minister’s. May said that the Minister Lenihan would have dissociated himself from the contents of the book at the launch. The Minister made the same point himself, saying that ‘people who might argue that in some way I was giving support to the views in the book are really getting it quite wrong.’

‘Had I attended I would be making a very fulsome defence of the importance of science in this country and to its future economic and social well-being,’ said Lenihan."

http://euroscientist.com/page/8/

The author eventually asked him not to attend:

http://www.siliconrepublic.com/new-media/item/17698-anti-evolution-writer-asks

http://www.atheist.ie/2010/09/science-minister-lenihan-to-launch-book-calling-evolution-a-hoax/

I read the book and it is the greatest pile of pooh that I have ever read, even normal anti-evolution folks would be embarrassed, the Daily Star has more credibility on scientific issues.....:eek:

But I do agree that Science Minister Conor Lenihan TD is not the sharpest tool in the shed.... We shouldn't have to worry about it for too much longer though:)