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Enda Kenny to make irish optional?

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    #2
    An gal gréine
    Registered Users Posts: 941 ✭✭✭An gal gréine


    Our thoughts are all on:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html
    Over 14,000 now.


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    #3
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    great, little late though


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    #4
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    great, little late though

    How so? FG are not even in government yet. Plans for protest's are already being made.


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    #5
    MathsManiac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,595 ✭✭✭MathsManiac


    An gal gréine wrote: »
    Our thoughts are all on:
    http://www.petitiononline.com/gaeilge/petition.html
    Over 14,000 now.

    All very well, but a pity that it actually makes an incorrect statement about what the FG policy is. The petition states: "It is Fine Gael’s policy to end the Irish language as a compulsory subject for students in schools in the Irish educational system." This is incorrect, if reports are accurate. The FG policy is to retain it as a compulsory subject for the Junior Cert (which is the period of compulsory education) and have it as an option for Leaving Cert.

    Irrespective of one's views on the matter, it would be nicer to be able to express an opinion on the actual policy rather than a fictitious one.


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    #6
    RJGMovie
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭RJGMovie


    FG are not going far enough. The amount of money wasted on irish in this country is a shame. If it was made optional at all levels there would be more interest in it. This is one of the reasons we have so many migrants taking up the language.


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    #7
    alejandro1977
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭alejandro1977


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Just saw this:
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gf8jm-TLQPjLWIxuJak29bUDxoQA?docId=N0602721297099463953A

    Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.

    Thoughts?

    You're assuming that forcing everyone to learn it will improve the level of spoken Irish. History has shown that it hasn't.

    Think of the lads doing pass/foundation subjects in your school - they would have been much better off getting a better grasp of practical subjects.

    For those considering going to University the situation isn't going to change - people in favour of Irish revival are really bad at strategy and picking their battles. The definition of madness is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.


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    #8
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    alejandro1977 wrote: »
    You're assuming that forcing everyone to learn it will improve the level of spoken Irish. History has shown that it hasn't.

    History has shown that trying to teach a language through a curriculum that isent fit for purpus will fail. Nothing more.

    For those considering going to University the situation isn't going to change - people in favour of Irish revival are really bad at strategy and picking their battles. The definition of madness is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting a different result.

    And that statment would be valid if Irish language organisations were proposing that the Status Quo be maintained, This is not true however. Compulsion is just one Issue.

    Irish language organisations propose major reform in the Curriculum, while leaving it compulsory.

    They are not doing the same thing repeatdly and expecting the same result. They are changing how it is done and expecting a different result. Quite sane dont you think?



    FG are not going far enough. The amount of money wasted on irish in this country is a shame. If it was made optional at all levels there would be more interest in it. This is one of the reasons we have so many migrants taking up the language.


    Care to show any evidience to support this claim? They tried this in England and it failed miserably.


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    #9
    alejandro1977
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭alejandro1977


    deise go deo wrote: »
    History has shown that trying to teach a language through a curriculum that isent fit for purpus will fail. Nothing more.




    And that statment would be valid if Irish language organisations were proposing that the Status Quo be maintained, This is not true however. Compulsion is just one Issue.

    Irish language organisations propose major reform in the Curriculum, while leaving it compulsory.

    They are not doing the same thing repeatdly and expecting the same result. They are changing how it is done and expecting a different result. Quite sane dont you think?


    Then why the knee jerk reaction why a change in compulsion is mentioned?

    I'll believe that change when I see it. They have been talking about it since I did my leaving... Even if they do, let's face it, learning Irish is wasted on a good proportion of students.

    The Organisations you refer to- who are they? Non Gov Organisations - with no power.


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    #10
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    alejandro1977 wrote: »
    Then why the knee jerk reaction why a change in compulsion is mentioned?

    I'll believe that change when I see it. They have been talking about it since I did my leaving... Even if they do, let's face it, learning Irish is wasted on a good proportion of students.

    The Organisations you refer to- who are they? Non Gov Organisations - with no power.


    Making languages optional failed Misirably a few years ago in England. The same will happen here.

    They are putting pressure on FG to change their Policy from making Irish optional to reforming the Curriculum. No one wants it to stay the same.
    Learning a second language is never a waste, Even limited learning of a second language is beneficial.


    NGO's with no power iniatly, But with the election looming that list now includes all political parties except FG(So far).


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    #11
    EricPraline
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.
    Thoughts?
    I think that everyone should be given the opportunity to learn our native language and should be encouraged to do so. However, what saddens me is that the compulsory teaching of the Irish language for the Leaving Certificate appears to have instilled a strong dislike for the language in several recent generations of Irish people. I don't remotely share this dislike, but the vast majority of people I know do.

    Personally I'd rather people learn the language out of genuine interest or curiosity. I think that more effort some made to encourage the learning and practical use of Irish at a younger age. By 14-16 students are clearly old enough to decide whether they want to pursue this any further, or specialise in other languages or disciplines.


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    #12
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Making languages optional failed Misirably a few years ago in England. The same will happen here.

    They are putting pressure on FG to change their Policy from making Irish optional to reforming the Curriculum. No one wants it to stay the same.
    Learning a second language is never a waste, Even limited learning of a second language is beneficial.


    NGO's with no power iniatly, But with the election looming that list now includes all political parties except FG(So far).

    It is if the language in question isn't practically dead


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    #13
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Fighting Irish wrote: »
    It is if the language in question isn't practically dead


    Nope, Learning a second language(Any second language, Even if it is dead) Will be of benefit to the learner. It helps them with their language skills in general. Kids who learn a second language will become better at language in general and their first language will benifit.

    This is true of Bi-Lingual kids, and studys have shown that the same is true with limited second language learning.


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    #14
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    EricPraline wrote: »
    , what saddens me is that the compulsory teaching of the Irish language for the Leaving Certificate appears to have instilled a strong dislike for the language in several recent generations of Irish people. I don't remotely share this dislike, but the vast majority of people I know do.


    Thats odd, Surveys into peoples attuides to the Irish language over the past few years have shown that younger people are the most likely to be in favor of Irish.
    Followed by high earners.

    This can be seen most clearly in students(Where the two groups meet really)

    This can be seen by the rapid increase in size of 3rd level Irish societies in recent years.

    In UCD the Cumann Gaelach grew to 2000 members last year.


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    #15
    alejandro1977
    Registered Users Posts: 505 ✭✭✭alejandro1977


    deise go deo wrote: »

    This is true of Bi-Lingual kids, and studys have shown that the same is true with limited second language learning.



    Sources? Links?

    The point is that many kids don't speak Irish despite being in Irish class for years;

    Of course using that time for another subject would also provide benefits


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    #16
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Making languages optional failed Misirably a few years ago in England. The same will happen here.
    By what measure, the numbers fell? That would be a shocking result.


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    #17
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    amacachi wrote: »
    By what measure, the numbers fell? That would be a shocking result.


    The numbers fell from 78% to 44% in the space of a few years. And had a damaging knock on effect across the English Education system

    The crisis is outlined here.


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    #18
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    alejandro1977 wrote: »
    Sources? Links?

    The point is that many kids don't speak Irish despite being in Irish class for years;

    Of course using that time for another subject would also provide benefits


    Benifits of second language study
    The Effect of Second Language Learning on Test Scores, Intelligence and
    Achievement


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    #19
    EricPraline
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Nope, Learning a second language(Any second language, Even if it is dead) Will be of benefit to the learner. It helps them with their language skills in general. Kids who learn a second language will become better at language in general and their first language will benifit.

    This is true of Bi-Lingual kids, and studys have shown that the same is true with limited second language learning.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    The numbers fell from 78% to 44% in the space of a few years. And had a damaging knock on effect across the English Education system
    I agree with you regarding the benefit of learning a second language. But I can't see the compelling reason why an 18-year old should be sitting an exam in Irish, as opposed to French, German, Spanish or Chinese. All of your above points equally apply to these languages.

    Currently many students take no science subject at Leaving Cert level. That would concern me at least as much as a student not taking a second language.


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    #20
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    Just saw this:
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gf8jm-TLQPjLWIxuJak29bUDxoQA?docId=N0602721297099463953A

    Quite frankly I'm kind of saddened by that fact. I really wish Irish was more spoken in Ireland, and although I'm not great myself, I think that everyone should be learning our native language.

    Thoughts?



    Utter hypocrisy. "I can't speak it but schoolgoers must learn it" You do realise they only want to make it optional for leaving cert? So schoolkids will still be learning it. Jesus wept.

    No subject should be mandatory for leaving cert. It should be a preparation for university/working life. You learn enough English and Maths at Junior cert level to cover you for nearly all college courses and jobs.

    If you wanted to do engineering/physics or english literature/journalism at third level you wouldn't be the type of person who'd drop maths or english.

    Bloody fear of change in this country is shocking.


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    #21
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The numbers fell from 78% to 44% in the space of a few years. And had a damaging knock on effect across the English Education system

    The crisis is outlined here.

    Thing is though Deise, it has been pointed out to you numerous times that is an incredibly disengenous argument.

    What age did the British remove the compulsary requirement . . . as you well know - at 14-16. Therefore non-comparable.

    FG want to remove it at leaving cert level. It can't have a knock on effect because well . . . there's no school after leaving cert.

    If people don't choose Irish for leaving cert - well so what? They'll still have done it from age 4-16 so will be just as capable in it.


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    #22
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Thing is though Deise, it has been pointed out to you numerous times that is an incredibly disengenous argument.

    What age did the British remove the compulsary requirement . . . as you well know - at 14-16. Therefore non-comparable.

    FG want to remove it at leaving cert level. It can't have a knock on effect because well . . . there's no school after leaving cert.

    If people don't choose Irish for leaving cert - well so what? They'll still have done it from age 4-16 so will be just as capable in it.


    Ok, Perhaps I dident choose my words carefully enough, By knock on effect I really ment that it would spread out from where it was made optional and damage other parts of the Education system.

    People wouldent bother making an effort for the JC because its not needed for the Leaving.

    As clearly mentioned in the article I linked to, It will have an effect on school after the LC, University's in the UK were forced to downsize or close their language departments due to a lack of people coming into them.
    This shows clearly that making languages optional did not just let people who dident want to do languages do something else, it affected people who would have studied and progressed with languages, The numbers of people that went on to University to persue a language in the UK declined after it was made optional.


    Making languages optional had a wider effect in the UK and it will have a wider effect here. It will not just let people who dont want to study it out of studying it, it will cause a decline in Language learning across the board.


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    #23
    EricPraline
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Making languages optional had a wider effect in the UK and it will have a wider effect here. It will not just let people who dont want to study it out of studying it, it will cause a decline in Language learning across the board.
    If this is the sole basis of your argument, then I presume you wouldn't be against students being required to take one language of their choosing for the Leaving Certificate?


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    #24
    Toyota_Avensis
    Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭Toyota_Avensis


    I'm all pro-Irish and I do speak it myself to a good degree, but I'm in agreement with Enda Kenny's proposal. Sitting the Leaving Cert Course at the minute, so I know myself first hand of the new Irish syllabus & how it's being received. Currently, despite awarding 40% of the overall mark to the Oral, competency in Irish still isn't there. There's a general lack of interest, even for myself who has a great interest, the course still remains very tedious and riddled with lots of time consuming literature which isn't very inspiring for promoting it as a spoken, useful language. What is very frustrating is sitting amongst a class with a poor command of Irish at Higher Level whom are simply doing it (a) because it is compulsory and (b) Preparing them in case they decide to persue a teaching degree in Ireland, as their honour at Higher Level will stand to them in that case.. It's about time we gave those with no interest the opportunity to opt out. They're presence is of no benefit to anyone. It's wasteful time for those who do not enjoy it, It's frustrating for the teacher trying to teach it to those who do not have the required standard of Irish to cooperate with. And lastly, for those of us who have an interest, the boredom created by the lack of interest from others and the ****ty course of literature, the current system could do with being made optional. The Education system in general regarding Irish needs reform. We have a Primary Education stream which lasts 8 Years, somewhere it fails to bring competency (as opposed to fluency) in the language. So yeah, me thinks it's time to address the elephant in the Leaving Certain Classroom and let those who've no interest/intention of using Irish to opt out, letting them get on with their respective lives. And for those of us whom remain with an interest, teach us the spoken, conversational irish, encourage us to use it, and somehow help us to use it in a way which is ''socially acceptable.'' / Deireadh leis an Rant!


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    #25
    conor.hogan.2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,246 ✭✭✭conor.hogan.2


    For a language that has been dieing for over 400 years and has been "dead" for around 40 odd years it is remarkably fresh.

    On topic - I am not surprised, this is Fine Gael.


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    #26
    SeanMadd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 268 ✭✭SeanMadd


    I agree with Toyota_Avensis. Although I just found out that they want to make it optional after Junior Cert, which actually isn't that bad. because people with really no interest in the language at all can drop it, but others will take it on. I myself hated Irish up to the Junior Cert. I couldn't put together a proper sentence in Irish and was completely shocked when I got a B.. In pass. Nonetheless a B. But since I've started 5th year I've grown to love it and I have an excellent teacher.

    I have to say, I put the blame on how the language is taught, especially in primary school. Right now, us students are wasting our time learning off stories and poems and summaries and notes for each, for about 5%(I think) of our leaving cert. Emphasis should be put more into our grammar/oral..You know, stuff that you'll actually need.

    Also I think if irish was more emphasized in primary school we would have been nearly fluent by the time we got to first year. I'm sorry, but Inis Dom or whatever book they're using now is totally useless. Children learn languages a lot quicker than adults, so they should be taught it earlier.


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    #27
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    SeanMadd wrote: »
    I have to say, I put the blame on how the language is taught, especially in primary school. Right now, us students are wasting our time learning off stories and poems and summaries and notes for each, for about 5%(I think) of our leaving cert. Emphasis should be put more into our grammar/oral..You know, stuff that you'll actually need.

    Also I think if irish was more emphasized in primary school we would have been nearly fluent by the time we got to first year. I'm sorry, but Inis Dom or whatever book they're using now is totally useless. Children learn languages a lot quicker than adults, so they should be taught it earlier.

    Bingo! Chuir tú do mhéar go díreach air! Seo é an fhadhb, gan aon amhras


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    #28
    Gael
    Registered Users Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Gael


    61% in favour of compulsory Irish

    Different Fine Gael views on Irish in exam


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    #29
    EricPraline
    Registered Users Posts: 486 ✭✭EricPraline


    Gael wrote: »
    61% in favour of compulsory Irish
    It should be stated that the poll was comissioned by Comhar na Muinteoirí Gaeilge. No vested interest there.


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    #30
    Krusader
    Registered Users Posts: 4,057 ✭✭✭Krusader


    EricPraline wrote: »
    It should be stated that the poll was comissioned by Comhar na Muinteoirí Gaeilge. No vested interest there.

    When you open the link it is stated :rolleyes:
    And it was coducted by a 3rd party on behalf of them


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    #31
    subedei
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭subedei


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Utter hypocrisy. "I can't speak it but schoolgoers must learn it" You do realise they only want to make it optional for leaving cert? So schoolkids will still be learning it. Jesus wept.

    No subject should be mandatory for leaving cert. It should be a preparation for university/working life. You learn enough English and Maths at Junior cert level to cover you for nearly all college courses and jobs.

    If you wanted to do engineering/physics or english literature/journalism at third level you wouldn't be the type of person who'd drop maths or english.

    Bloody fear of change in this country is shocking.

    Actually I used to live in England and still have friends from there and they all complained about making these subjects optional, because once you choose there is no way back. Most people in the UK as here, dont know 100% what they want to do by 16 but the difference there is once someone figures it out a year or two after school they cant go back or if they did it would involve way more work than if they had done it for their A levels. Its not fear of change, just fear of regressing.


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