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New Stadium
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Join Date:Posts: 6721
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Rip down the Olympic Stadium, build the very same 60,000 seater new Spurs ground (that would have been built in N17) and then redelevop a site in Crystal Palace for athletics use that will meet the highest standards. Which covers the whole 'leaving a legacy after London 2012' deal.
Levy's a clever fella in fairness. He has all the bases covered in relation to the bid.0 -
Levy is first and foremost, a businessman, and a very good one at that. IMO He's mostly interested in making Spurs more successful on the financial front. Financial success will not necessarily bring playing success and silverware to the club.
I believe that this move is part of a bigger plan to very quickly increase the value of 'the business', and as I previously mentioned, to then be auctioned off to the highest bidder and most likely a foreign owner who will have no regard for the history and tradition of the club.
The bread and butter of the club (the fans) do not want this move. To us mere supporters we don't look at the year end accounts, we don't look out five year profit forecasts etc. We follow our team because we love the team, the style of football, the feeling when we win or lose, the songs, the colours and the history and tradition.
If the club does move there then expect to see Arsenal increasing their fan base throughout the North London area because Spurs will lose out on the next generation of young fans who are based in the current traditional catchment area for supporters.
I'll give up if it happens.0 -
One week left to save our club, if you haven't already please add your name to the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/say-no-to-stratford-hotspur/4340 -
In fairness, he is a cheeky cúnt.
The Bingo Club ST holder/Mayor of the borough is looking to put people out of work but he can find the money to fund their move to Stratford? Obviously I hope he gets his wish, but fúck him otherwise.0 -
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therecklessone wrote: »One week left to save our club, if you haven't already please add your name to the petition:
http://www.petitiononline.co.uk/petition/say-no-to-stratford-hotspur/434
Done!0 -
Lifted from FTL
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The decision which was due on the future of the OS this Friday has been postponed I just heard?
I reckon Seb Coe's comments have changed everything?0 -
I live in Dublin so in theory the 'location' of Tottenham Hotspur is arguably irrelevent to me. However, for better or for worse, I have supported spurs from a young age, they are my club. If they were to move away from tottenham I think its another step toward franchising in modern football.
I like that whenever I go to see spurs play I have to walk for ages from Seven Sisters, or through the tottenham area from the stanstead express.... I like the characters in all the greasy spoons, i like the fact that every second shop is a hairdressers, i like that they arbitrarily changed a petrol station into a club shop, and that school playgrounds become car parks on matchday... the whole area is part of what the club is...
I have been to several grounds in england and europe. Recently was at man city - spurs a few years ago at the city of manchester stadium, in the middle of a car park, with an asda beside it... what a hopelessly soulless stadium. if THAT is the future of tottenham I may become a blackpool fan, at least there's a theme park within walking distance!!!
If i'm saying yes to moving tottenham across london, why wouldnt i say yes to someone moving "Tottenham Hotspur" to birmingham to in 2021 for business reasons!?!? Sure why dont we trade some of the EPL positions with the two glasgow clubs while we're at it... ugh.. the future of football depresses me... then we can all enjoy as Manchester Qatar field a team of diverse internationals in the january world cup!!! /end rant0 -
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I live in Dublin so in theory the 'location' of Tottenham Hotspur is arguably irrelevent to me. However, for better or for worse, I have supported spurs from a young age, they are my club. If they were to move away from tottenham I think its another step toward franchising in modern football.
I like that whenever I go to see spurs play I have to walk for ages from Seven Sisters, or through the tottenham area from the stanstead express.... I like the characters in all the greasy spoons, i like the fact that every second shop is a hairdressers, i like that they arbitrarily changed a petrol station into a club shop, and that school playgrounds become car parks on matchday... the whole area is part of what the club is...
I have been to several grounds in england and europe. Recently was at man city - spurs a few years ago at the city of manchester stadium, in the middle of a car park, with an asda beside it... what a hopelessly soulless stadium. if THAT is the future of tottenham I may become a blackpool fan, at least there's a theme park within walking distance!!!
If i'm saying yes to moving tottenham across london, why wouldnt i say yes to someone moving "Tottenham Hotspur" to birmingham to in 2021 for business reasons!?!? Sure why dont we trade some of the EPL positions with the two glasgow clubs while we're at it... ugh.. the future of football depresses me... then we can all enjoy as Manchester Qatar field a team of diverse internationals in the january world cup!!! /end rant
Great post.0 -
Ideally, id like to see us stay in white hart lane. But sometimes the world moves on and we have to move with it.
I understand all the romance and history that goes with the club, but football is a business and the olympic stadium makes better business sense.
Maybe we would lose alot of fans, maybe we will gain alot too.
If we redevelop the lane, finish 5th this year, can we compete in the transfer market?
Look at how little dealing arsenal have done since moving to the emptycrates, will a new WHL leave us financially handicapped for the next 5 or 6 seasons?
Given we made a loss last year for the first time in ages, and we sold berbatov for 30 mill, are we likey to be further in the red this season? especially if we fail to finish fourth?
Head says stratford, heart says Tottenham, but successful business's dont run on sentiment.
And after all that, i think the spam will get the stadium anyway, i just hope Levy can wrangle some funding from somewhere.
It could be the start of a special era for the spurs or it could be false dawn no. 559.0 -
I live in Dublin so in theory the 'location' of Tottenham Hotspur is arguably irrelevent to me. However, for better or for worse, I have supported spurs from a young age, they are my club. If they were to move away from tottenham I think its another step toward franchising in modern football.
I like that whenever I go to see spurs play I have to walk for ages from Seven Sisters, or through the tottenham area from the stanstead express.... I like the characters in all the greasy spoons, i like the fact that every second shop is a hairdressers, i like that they arbitrarily changed a petrol station into a club shop, and that school playgrounds become car parks on matchday... the whole area is part of what the club is...
I have been to several grounds in england and europe. Recently was at man city - spurs a few years ago at the city of manchester stadium, in the middle of a car park, with an asda beside it... what a hopelessly soulless stadium. if THAT is the future of tottenham I may become a blackpool fan, at least there's a theme park within walking distance!!!
If i'm saying yes to moving tottenham across london, why wouldnt i say yes to someone moving "Tottenham Hotspur" to birmingham to in 2021 for business reasons!?!? Sure why dont we trade some of the EPL positions with the two glasgow clubs while we're at it... ugh.. the future of football depresses me... then we can all enjoy as Manchester Qatar field a team of diverse internationals in the january world cup!!! /end rant
Great post.
I agree with JRT here about liking where WHL lane is. Yes in an ideal world the neighbourhood would be nicer and the stadium would be closer to the train. But its not that bad. For all of us who travel over to games the Stantsted express leaves us in Tottenham Hale. We then have a 30 min walk or bus/taxi up to the ground- its not like we have to face an epic journey to reach WHL. Along the way their are a few good boozers where we can mingle and enjoy the matchday atmosphere. You don't have any restaurants with Michelin stars in Tottenham - so what. I for all my years going to games all over the world have never really worried about what food I will be eating before or after the game.
Maybe this post is irrelevant after listening to Levy last night on SSN but I would prefer if we stayed in Tottenham - warts and all.0 -
Chairman Daniel Levy told Special Report that Tottenham will leave White Hart Lane even if the club doesn't win the right to take over the Olympic Stadium in Stratford.
Levy says it is imperative for Spurs to find a new home if the club wants to develop and that protests against any move by "a very, very small group" of supporters will not change his mind.
Seems definite that those in charge at Tottenham have there minds made up to move. I know that what ever happens I will still be a Spurs fan. I didn't decide to support Tottenham because of the location of the club or anything like that. I started because I liked what I saw, players like Ossie, Hoddle, Gazza etc. At 9 years old Spurs could have being playing in my local town for all I knew.
Two questions I would ask are will the club change the name if they do not stay in the Tottenham area. And what will happen to WHL, will it just be abandoned and left to fall to pieces like evertything else in the area0 -
From the SSN Report last night:-
Levy says it is imperative for Spurs to find a new home if the club wants to develop and that protests against any move by "a very, very small group" of supporters will not change his mind.
In the video from same report (8min 10secs in) Alan Sugar says "I understand that Sky in their research have not found one Tottenham fan that wants to support this thing".(http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11675_6700224,00.html
So Mr Levy if it's only "a very, very small group" let's see some numbers.
The fcuking lies they tell. Worse than politicians.0 -
The fcuking lies they tell. Worse than politicians.
Ain't that the truth...• The Club recognises the importance of remembering our history as a part of the new plans.
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans/scheme/club_heritage.htmlThe Club is proud of its roots in Haringey, having been based in Tottenham for over 126 years.
http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/futureplans/scheme/stadium.html
Meanwhile...Please show your support
With 73,000 Club members and 23,000 people on the waiting list for a season ticket, we can make this happen and continue to invest hugely into the Tottenham area.
Tottenham Hotspur has now submitted a new planning application for the development of a world-class scheme in Tottenham to Haringey Council.
As the planning application process moves ahead it will be important to provide a strong demonstration of support for the scheme.
And still no consultation on Stratford.0 -
This link makes for an interesting read on where Spurs stand with Haringey Council.
http://www.thfc1882.com/category/articles/
Scroll down to 'Haringey Council Speaks Out'0 -
Really conflicted on all this. I love the club, but have no huge affinity to the area as I've only been able to go a few times. I've supported Spurs since I was 7, in 1973, and watchedthem on the radio for the first 10 years, before live football on TV.
What do I want? Spurs competing at the highest level. Ideally in a state of theart stadium- ideally in WHL. It seems like Levy is trying to be too smart, but it also seems like Haringey council have been shafting the club to fund the regeneration of the whole area. At a time when the economy is in a downward spiral- that may not be over- this could be very dangerous. We could sell a 60,000 seater stadium out, but would that cover the cost of empty shops, offices and apartments?
I hope the Stratford thing goes south. It seems obscene to build an Olympic Stadium and then flatten it. I don't understand why they didn't use a cricket ground- Lords or the Oval, turn it into a track and field stadium for the month and revert afterwards. The size would work fine.
If our Stratford bid falls short, as it should, we go back to Haringey council and tell them approve the new Stadium, as a stand alone, and let the rest be a co-development whenever it makes economic sense.
Do I trust Levy and the board? No. Do I trust them to not mortgage the club ona pipedream? yes.
If we do move, and leave Tottenham, I'll be disapponted, but I probably won't leave. I'd rather that than sell out to the Sheiks. As to our name- thats simple. We are Spurs, pure and simple.0 -
Wendell Gee wrote: »What do I want? Spurs competing at the highest level. Ideally in a state of theart stadium- ideally in WHL. It seems like Levy is trying to be too smart, but it also seems like Haringey council have been shafting the club to fund the regeneration of the whole area. At a time when the economy is in a downward spiral- that may not be over- this could be very dangerous. We could sell a 60,000 seater stadium out, but would that cover the cost of empty shops, offices and apartments?
I hope the Stratford thing goes south. It seems obscene to build an Olympic Stadium and then flatten it. I don't understand why they didn't use a cricket ground- Lords or the Oval, turn it into a track and field stadium for the month and revert afterwards. The size would work fine.
If our Stratford bid falls short, as it should, we go back to Haringey council and tell them approve the new Stadium, as a stand alone, and let the rest be a co-development whenever it makes economic sense.
Let's clarify a few things...
The cost of the S106 order from Haringey is in and around £15m, that is the price the Borough want to allow the NPD go ahead. English Heritage have imposed conditions on the preservation of certain listed buildings on the High Road which will cost us money, and TFL are looking for money to upgrade stations in the area.
By no means are Haringey trying to hold us to ransom, if anyone is it is the other way around.
According to David Lammy MP the Emirates received zero public funding, and their S106 ran into the tens of millions. They were required to build a new recycling centre at a cost of £60m alone.
Lammy has also claimed that Spurs have not made any requests for public funding for NPD, either from Haringey or the Mayor of London. How then can Daniel Levy cite the lack of public support as a contributory factor in his decision to favour Stratford?
As for the commercial developments in the NPD, none of them are required by Haringey per se (as I understand)...and all will be revenue generating.
I think its time the Levy PR speak was tossed aside and we got some truths on this matter once and for all.0 -
Article from the London Evening Standard
"The first opinion poll on the future of the £500 million Stratford venue - conducted by BBC London News - reveals a huge backing for West Ham's plan to take over the stadium and share it with athletics.
Four out of five Londoners (81 per cent) are opposed to the stadium's demolition and 70 per cent say an athletics track should be retained after the Olympics.
Asked what they would most like to see in the stadium after the Games, 39 per cent said athletics, 26 per cent football and 21 per cent concerts. Almost three quarters (72 per cent) back the West Ham bid with only 13 per cent in favour of Spurs. Almost two thirds (63 per cent) said it would damage the concept of creating an Olympic legacy if athletics could not be held in the stadium after the Games".
read full article here: http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-olympics/article-23917603-londoners-say-dont-demolish-olympic-stadium.do
But yet Levy & Co. will push on with the bullsh1t spin.0 -
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Join Date:Posts: 6721
But yet Levy & Co. will push on with the bullsh1t spin.
Of course!
The above article is spin from the opposing camp, it reads like a load of bullshit, kinda like one of those l'oreal adds where everyone says they love the product, then at the bottom it says something like 80% of the 100 women tested. In this case it's 1001 londoners voicing their opinion, or a little less than 3% of a filled WHL, or 0.00013% of the population of london.
If I was in a position of power, I'd ignore this too.0 -
Of course!
The above article is spin from the opposing camp, it reads like a load of bullshit, kinda like one of those l'oreal adds where everyone says they love the product, then at the bottom it says something like 80% of the 100 women tested. In this case it's 1001 londoners voicing their opinion, or a little less than 3% of a filled WHL, or 0.00013% of the population of london.
If I was in a position of power, I'd ignore this too.
Personally, I see it as a general consensus of what people, who actually live in London, think what should be done with the London Olympic Stadium. And seeing as it is their taxes that have paid for it, then I believe they should have some say in what happens to it.
Of course, Levy will ignore this. I wouldn't expect anything else as he just see's £££££ signs in front of his eyes.
I don't see why the national owned broadcaster, BBC London News, would be spinning for "the opposing camp".0 -
To read the full aticle from Jim Duggan's Topspurs site, go to link http://www.topspurs.com/thfccol-rbs.htm
but in the meantime, I thought this made up Q & A by the columnist was very accurate. Judge for yourselves and try to think as a fan who lives in or near London as opposed to as a fan that lives further away.
For me Points 6,7,8 and 10 are most significant.
1. “We have moved before, so that is a precedent for moving again”
Well actually we have only ever been located in the environs of Tottenham (hence our name), so for 128 years we have been in Tottenham and for 111 years at WHL. We became Tottenham Hotspur in 1884 just two years after our formation as Hotspur FC, which was a name change to identify us from the area we are from, to differentiate us from another club. We were Tottenham Hotspur before the Goons, Chelsea or West Ham were conceived.
2. “It is only 5 miles, so it is not far”
It is only give 5 miles by helicopter, it actually more like 7-8 miles by road and even if you take it as the crows flies, in terms of London as we know it is still significant, going through two boroughs, over 500,000 people and if boroughs are considered like counties (they have the same power), then it is like moving a team from Essex to Norfolk. More importantly it is also entering a completely different London region, North to East and will leave our traditional heartlands. If there really had been no choice but to leave Tottenham (there isn’t) then more fans would have understood a potential move to a neighbouring area e.g Enfield, as these are considered Tottenham areas but East London – never.
3. "I support Tottenham Hotspur, I would support the club anywhere"
Really? What about if we relocated to Beijing, would that be acceptable? Who's to say in 50 that we won’t have Levy's successor saying that "we are a global team - so we need a global stadium, Beijing is a global city and has perfect transport links blah, blah, blah".
4. "Tottenham, is a dump and Stratford is better"
The people who say this, must be blind, or have never actually been to Stratford. I have had the misfortune of going to Stratford many times; it is a hole, a shiny new stadium and a shopping centre, is not going to change that. And Tottenham is OUR dump. What is more the New White Hart Lane could galvanise the area, creating a mecca in north London.
5. "Levy owns the club and he has our best interests at heart".
Levy's concern is money; he is not a fan like me or you. Although he has made mistakes during his stewardship I cannot knock him for the progress that we have seen on the pitch compared to the Sugar era, however the notion that we should simply allow him to ride rough-shot and let him to do what he likes? Well not on my watch. Owners are temporary and sooner or later Levy will sell up to whoever gives him the best price. Yet we as fans can dictate to a degree, as we have the power over Levy – we supply the money he craves.
6. "The Stratford stadium is £200 million less so we will have this to spend on the squad."
We won't have an "extra" £200 million, if you decide to buy a house for £250k instead of £300, you don't get the 50k, your mortgage payments might be a bit lower, that is it, but not necessarily, depending on loan deal, etc etc.
7. "Stratford has better transport links, shopping centre etc."
This is one of the most sickening of the myths being perpetrated. If that really is a priority then I have missed something during my 20+ years of support. Perhaps this kind of fan would be better suited to supporting Chelsea, they do have the Kings Road nearby after all. As for the transport links – absolute rubbish. Like any major football ground in London, there is congestion on match days – this is what happens when thousands of people arrive and leave at the same time, the notion that this will disappear when we move to Stratford is fanciful. At Tottenham, we have two train lines within 5 mins of stadium, we have the north circular 10 mins away and two tube stations and an overground within 25 mins. The Stratford stadium will be like Wembley on match days. The only fans it will actually be better for, will be Essex fans (I am one – so I have no vested interest in the this – I would be one of the minority of our fans where the journey would be better – but that is not the reason why I became a football fan).
8. "It will piss off West Ham."
Yes, I hate West Ham too, nearly as much as the Goons. But that is the crucial point, nearly. If we leave North London, we leave it to the Goons, and 97 years after they turned up in North London uninvited they will have completed their invasion. Arsenal fans are loving this potential move and that says it all.
9. “This is progress, which we cannot stop, even if we don’t like it”
We, as fans, do have collective power. We got Sugar out, we got Graham out and we can stop this move, if Levy thinks there will not be enough bums on seats, he would change his tune.
10. “We cannot afford to stay in Tottenham and the council and Lammy have screwed us”
We are actually in a very lucky position, we have a supportive council, (much as Levy’s spin doctors have tried to dish the dirt on them – we got our planning permission in a relatively short period of time, with conditions, hardly onerous), supportive local businesses and a supportive MP. Levy was happy with all of this seemingly, until just a few months ago. The council gave us almost what we wanted, it had been priced and it would not impact on the team we were told. Now he has changed his tune, he has spied a cheap and nasty option to relocate to East London and he wants it. If we had not won the Olympics, we would not be having this debate and we would be moving ahead with the New White Hart Lane.0 -
Jim Duggan wrote:1. “We have moved before, so that is a precedent for moving again”
Well actually we have only ever been located in the environs of Tottenham (hence our name), so for 128 years we have been in Tottenham and for 111 years at WHL. We became Tottenham Hotspur in 1884 just two years after our formation as Hotspur FC, which was a name change to identify us from the area we are from, to differentiate us from another club. We were Tottenham Hotspur before the Goons, Chelsea or West Ham were conceived.
AgreeJim Duggan wrote:2. “It is only 5 miles, so it is not far”
It is only give 5 miles by helicopter, it actually more like 7-8 miles by road and even if you take it as the crows flies, in terms of London as we know it is still significant, going through two boroughs, over 500,000 people and if boroughs are considered like counties (they have the same power), then it is like moving a team from Essex to Norfolk. More importantly it is also entering a completely different London region, North to East and will leave our traditional heartlands. If there really had been no choice but to leave Tottenham (there isn’t) then more fans would have understood a potential move to a neighbouring area e.g Enfield, as these are considered Tottenham areas but East London – never.
Can completely understand why people born and bred in the area would be upset. Still dont understand why its so improtant to everyone else. Stratford is so much easier to commute to for people living in London and coming in from outside. Its not like it takes long to get from Statford to Tottenham .. a few minutes on the tube.Jim Duggan wrote:3. "I support Tottenham Hotspur, I would support the club anywhere"
Really? What about if we relocated to Beijing, would that be acceptable? Who's to say in 50 that we won’t have Levy's successor saying that "we are a global team - so we need a global stadium, Beijing is a global city and has perfect transport links blah, blah, blah"..
I think this is a bit of a strawman. We are moving 15/20 minutes at the most down the road because we have encountered obstacles to staying where we are. We are still in the general area .. its not like we have moved out of london or even south of the riverJim Duggan wrote:4. "Tottenham, is a dump and Stratford is better"
The people who say this, must be blind, or have never actually been to Stratford. I have had the misfortune of going to Stratford many times; it is a hole, a shiny new stadium and a shopping centre, is not going to change that. And Tottenham is OUR dump. What is more the New White Hart Lane could galvanise the area, creating a mecca in north London.
eh .. well i have been to Stratford many times too and even lived close by. It used to be a bit of a dump but was still nicer than Tottenham. With the regeneration from the Olympics it will be now a very nice area .. no comparison with Tottenham.Jim Duggan wrote:5. "Levy owns the club and he has our best interests at heart".
Levy's concern is money; he is not a fan like me or you. Although he has made mistakes during his stewardship I cannot knock him for the progress that we have seen on the pitch compared to the Sugar era, however the notion that we should simply allow him to ride rough-shot and let him to do what he likes? Well not on my watch. Owners are temporary and sooner or later Levy will sell up to whoever gives him the best price. Yet we as fans can dictate to a degree, as we have the power over Levy – we supply the money he craves.
Well unfortunately we are a publicly listed company and we have to deal with the issues that come along with that. I do believe that Levy is a fan though as well as being a chairman. I'm not a big fan of his and there of a course a financial influence on this decision .. but as a Chairman/CEO of a company he is legally obligated to his shareholders to manage the finances of the company to the best of his ability.Jim Duggan wrote:6. "The Stratford stadium is £200 million less so we will have this to spend on the squad."
We won't have an "extra" £200 million, if you decide to buy a house for £250k instead of £300, you don't get the 50k, your mortgage payments might be a bit lower, that is it, but not necessarily, depending on loan deal, etc etc.
lol .. Can you imagine the interest payments alone on an extra £200 million loan? Every penny we spend on repayments or interst is money that could have been spent on the squad.Jim Duggan wrote:7. "Stratford has better transport links, shopping centre etc."
This is one of the most sickening of the myths being perpetrated. If that really is a priority then I have missed something during my 20+ years of support. Perhaps this kind of fan would be better suited to supporting Chelsea, they do have the Kings Road nearby after all. As for the transport links – absolute rubbish. Like any major football ground in London, there is congestion on match days – this is what happens when thousands of people arrive and leave at the same time, the notion that this will disappear when we move to Stratford is fanciful. At Tottenham, we have two train lines within 5 mins of stadium, we have the north circular 10 mins away and two tube stations and an overground within 25 mins. The Stratford stadium will be like Wembley on match days. The only fans it will actually be better for, will be Essex fans (I am one – so I have no vested interest in the this – I would be one of the minority of our fans where the journey would be better – but that is not the reason why I became a football fan). .
I disagree .. Statfords transport facilities will be topclass after the olympics .. they have to make it as easily accessible as possible to get to for the Olympics. Also Crossrail will mean that we will probably be able to get the eurostar to continental europe from Stratford. For most people living in london Tottenham is a pain to get to .. byu far one of the most inconveneint grounds of the top clubs.Jim Duggan wrote:8. "It will piss off West Ham."
Yes, I hate West Ham too, nearly as much as the Goons. But that is the crucial point, nearly. If we leave North London, we leave it to the Goons, and 97 years after they turned up in North London uninvited they will have completed their invasion. Arsenal fans are loving this potential move and that says it all.
Seriously? We are going to leave North London to the Goons? Whats going to happen .. all of a sudden all the Spurs fans in North London are going to move to East London? Or are gangs of Arsenal fans going to go a recruitment drive around the boroughs of North London? It doesnt really matter where in London where you live anymore .. its more about who your family support and especially who your Dad supports. Football fans from all clubs are dispersed all over london, the Uk and the World .. the days of everyone in East London supporting West Ham and everyone in North London supporting Arse or spurs are gone.
If you and your family are from the area and grew up with this tribal rivalry then I can completley understand you being against the move .. otherwise I dont really get how this applies to most Spurs fans who were born and live outside of TottenhamJim Duggan wrote:9. “This is progress, which we cannot stop, even if we don’t like it”
We, as fans, do have collective power. We got Sugar out, we got Graham out and we can stop this move, if Levy thinks there will not be enough bums on seats, he would change his tune.
I agree .. the fans are the club to an extent. If everyone organises and stops going to games then they would have to stay. I do think fans should be consulted and I do believe they should have all the facts to make an informed decision.
My point of view is that I would rather to progress as a club on the field rather than stagnate by staying in a 36,000 seater stadium in a bad area of london with crap transport links. If both options were equally viable then I think we should stay in tottenham and try and regenerate the area .. but not if its going to cost us an extra £200m and the council isnt prepared to help us. Stratford wont need to be regenerated and West Ham will be getting £100m to move to the OS .. How much sense does that make? We get obstacles thrown in our path by TFL and London Heritage for our efforts to help the community.Jim Duggan wrote:10. “We cannot afford to stay in Tottenham and the council and Lammy have screwed us”
We are actually in a very lucky position, we have a supportive council, (much as Levy’s spin doctors have tried to dish the dirt on them – we got our planning permission in a relatively short period of time, with conditions, hardly onerous), supportive local businesses and a supportive MP. Levy was happy with all of this seemingly, until just a few months ago. The council gave us almost what we wanted, it had been priced and it would not impact on the team we were told. Now he has changed his tune, he has spied a cheap and nasty option to relocate to East London and he wants it. If we had not won the Olympics, we would not be having this debate and we would be moving ahead with the New White Hart Lane.
Again another strawman .. Levy has not tried to dish the dirt on Haringey Council .. its been the other way around. Levy came out in his letter to the fans and praised how helpful the council have been. Lammy is the one who has been kicking off all over the news and threatening us with legal action. If he wants us to stay so bad then why doesnt he put some effort into securing some council/govenrment funding for the regeneration of the area.
It comes down to simple finances .. We can move to Stratford and basically be in profit from the deal .. meaning that we have plenty of money to invest in the squad and fight for honours and the CL. The other option is to saddle ourselves with a huge amount of debt which will affect investment in teh squad .. this will probably mean we can kiss goodbye to the Modrics, Vand Der Vaarts, and Bales and say hello to playing football in a fantastic stadium with a crap team. I dont know about you guys but i would like to see us win some trophies before 2025
Obviously everyone has their different views on the issue and I respect anyone who wants to stay where we are but I dont think we should let the issue divide the fans like it has. We all have a vested interest in the future of the club and we all want whats best so lets try not fight amongst ourselves whatever the outcome.0 -
Thats a really good riposte playboy in fairness to you.
On the last issue however there has been mention from Lammy to say he will press to have the name Tottenham removed from THFC as they no longer represent the area.
If this came to pass then its suddenly about a lot more than money & logistics. Removing the name Tottenham from the club is essentially killing the club.0 -
Can completely understand why people born and bred in the area would be upset. Still dont understand why its so improtant to everyone else. Stratford is so much easier to commute to for people living in London and coming in from outside. Its not like it takes long to get from Statford to Tottenham .. a few minutes on the tube.
It matters to me because the history and the tradition of the club I love is explicitly linked with the Tottenham area. It's got nothing to do with travel, the entire emphasis on travel is from the pro-Stratford side. You heard the song "it's a grand ol team"? "and if you know your history"...I think this is a bit of a strawman. We are moving 15/20 minutes at the most down the road because we have encountered obstacles to staying where we are. We are still in the general area .. its not like we have moved out of london or even south of the river
It is not a strawman, and it is entirely relevant. What if we could save another £200m by moving to Birmingham? Wouldn't that free us of debt and mean investment in the squad? Oh goody gumdrops, maybe we can make another £100m by offering to change our name? As long as its in our long term interest of course.
What so few of the pro-Stratford mob will acknowledge is that once you cast away our attachment to the area we were founded and have played football for 128 years then you have no moral claim to remaining within any locality. All of the arguments for the transport and infrastructure, all of the arguments for financing, all of them apply away from London as well. Fúck it, Crewe has some of the best railways connections in the world, lets move there.Well unfortunately we are a publicly listed company and we have to deal with the issues that come along with that. I do believe that Levy is a fan though as well as being a chairman. I'm not a big fan of his and there of a course a financial influence on this decision .. but as a Chairman/CEO of a company he is legally obligated to his shareholders to manage the finances of the company to the best of his ability.
Jim Duggan is aware of those facts, which is why he is questioning the myth that Levy just has our best interests at heart. He has a primary responsibility to the shareholders, and if he can maximise their ROI then he will, regardless of the long term damage.For most people living in london Tottenham is a pain to get to .. byu far one of the most inconveneint grounds of the top clubs.
I've been to:
Old Trafford
Anfield
Stamford Bridge
The Emirates
City of Manchester Stadium
Upton Park
Craven Cottage
The DW Stadium
The Reebok
Goodison Park
The Hawthorns
Fratton Park
The Riverside
The Walkers Stadium
The Madejski Stadium
The National Hockey Stadium (MK Dons)
With the exception of Craven Cottage and Fratton Park I have had problems getting into or away from all of them. Only The Emirates of the current top 5 is easier to travel to than WHL.
What is your experience of other stadiums?Seriously? We are going to leave North London to the Goons? Whats going to happen .. all of a sudden all the Spurs fans in North London are going to move to East London? Or are gangs of Arsenal fans going to go a recruitment drive around the boroughs of North London? It doesnt really matter where in London where you live anymore .. its more about who your family support and especially who your Dad supports. Football fans from all clubs are dispersed all over london, the Uk and the World .. the days of everyone in East London supporting West Ham and everyone in North London supporting Arse or spurs are gone.
Other fans seem to get this much easier than Spurs fans for some reason, yes it might be prehistoric to cling to tribal rivalries but it is those rivalries that help inject passion into the English game. Once you cast aside a century of tradition you risk reducing the game to just another form of sports entertainment, and why should I feel any affinity towards the 11 players wearing this season's shirt if all it is about is spending discretionary income? I am not a customer, customers wouldn't accept the level of sh1t that we have been dealt for the last two decades (and even as we were on the up we have been fleeced and taken for granted on the commercial side). I am a fan, and that is why I've stuck with the club through thick and thin...to date...
Arsenal are our rivals, not West Ham. West Ham are like an annoying little runt who wants to play with the big boys but the big boys don't even acknowledge his existence. They are a nothing club, and I will not enter into any sort of rivalry with them by choice.My point of view is that I would rather to progress as a club on the field rather than stagnate by staying in a 36,000 seater stadium in a bad area of london with crap transport links. If both options were equally viable then I think we should stay in tottenham and try and regenerate the area .. but not if its going to cost us an extra £200m and the council isnt prepared to help us. Stratford wont need to be regenerated and West Ham will be getting £100m to move to the OS .. How much sense does that make? We get obstacles thrown in our path by TFL and London Heritage for our efforts to help the community.
Newham Council are making staff redundant because of funding cut backs by the ConDems yet their West Ham supporting Mayor can still arrange finance for his favourite club. That is obscene.Again another strawman .. Levy has not tried to dish the dirt on Haringey Council .. its been the other way around. Levy came out in his letter to the fans and praised how helpful the council have been. Lammy is the one who has been kicking off all over the news and threatening us with legal action. If he wants us to stay so bad then why doesnt he put some effort into securing some council/govenrment funding for the regeneration of the area.
What part of this are you not getting? There is no public money available, and other projects that have been mentioned by Levy and co did not receive public funding (The Emirates that I mentioned in a previous post)Obviously everyone has their different views on the issue and I respect anyone who wants to stay where we are but I dont think we should let the issue divide the fans like it has. We all have a vested interest in the future of the club and we all want whats best so lets try not fight amongst ourselves whatever the outcome.
If we go I will walk away from this club, it pains me to think I share a common space with people who are so ready to sell our soul.0 -
golfball37 wrote: »
If this came to pass then its suddenly about a lot more than money & logistics. Removing the name Tottenham from the club is essentially killing the club.
Really?
What if we got another £100m for changing our name? Cos that would leave us sitting pretty, wouldn't it? Challenging for trophies and everything.
Magic.0 -
In 2005 Red Bull bought Autrian club SV Salzburg and changed their name to Red Bull Salzburg. Perhaps more controversially, they changed the club's colours from violet and white to red, blue and yellow (associated with the brand)SV Salzburg has a rich history. The club was formed in 1933 when teams associated with the left and right wings of the political spectrum merged. In fact, the selection of violet and white as team colors was intended to suggest the new team was politically neutral (Guenther, 2006). SV Salzburg has traditionally been one of the strongest teams in Austria’s Bundesliga and won the league championship in 1994, 1995, and 1997. In 1994 the team finished as the runner-up in the UEFA Cup.
However, SV Salzburg began encountering financial difficulties around the year 2000, and Red Bull purchased the team in 2005. Robinson (2005) describes how many fans were initially supportive of Red Bull’s purchase of the team, since it would provide needed finances to recruit top-caliber players. But he notes that (fans) soon … recognized that the new management’s purpose was to destroy the old club to establish a Red Bull company club.”
Austria’s premier football association, the Bundesliga, has a history of allowing football club names to help promote private investors (Joyce, 2003). Still, Red Bull took this concept to the extreme, completely rebranding the team and replacing the traditional purple and white uniforms with the red, blue, and yellow colors used to market its drink (Plenderleith, 2007b). Red Bull also referred to the origin of the club based on when the company made the purchase (2005) rather than on the year the team was founded (1933). According to Guenther (2006), “There was a clear intention to sever any ties with the ‘old’ Austria Salzburg. Club sources went on to say that, as far as Red Bull is concerned, there is no history, no tradition” associated with the transformation of SV Salzburg to the new ownership.
When discussing the rationale for changing the color of the team’s uniforms, Red Bull CEO Dieter Mateschitz (cited in Joyce, 2003) referred to fan protests as “kindergarten stuff.” He said, “The Red Bull can’t be violet or else we couldn’t call it Red Bull. Whether you play in purple, blue, or green is irrelevant; the only thing that matters is the team being successful.”
Sound familiar?
http://www.thesportjournal.org/article/how-do-fans-react-when-sports-teams-are-named-after-corporations0 -
therecklessone wrote: »It matters to me because the history and the tradition of the club I love is explicitly linked with the Tottenham area. It's got nothing to do with travel, the entire emphasis on travel is from the pro-Stratford side. You heard the song "it's a grand ol team"? "and if you know your history"...
The history and tradition of the club will remain unchanged .. So we are a few miles down the road in a nicer stadium .. so what? Are you from Tottenham .. have you lived there.. why does the area matter so much especially to a fan from Ireland that most people from the area will only turn their noses up as being some kind of plastic fan who jumped on the Spurs bandwagon for no particular reason. Lets be realistic here .. we are Irish fans following a football team in London. Some of us might live in London.. some of us might have ties to the club through relatives .. but at the end of the day what does some dump in North London really mean to you other the meaning you have given it because you have tried to identify with it out of love for a football team. You can romanticise walking up the high road in the pissing rain or eating in Chick King all you want but it still doesnt make it not a ****hole. Why should one ****hole be any different to one 5 miles down the road to a fan not from the area?therecklessone wrote: »It is not a strawman, and it is entirely relevant. What if we could save another £200m by moving to Birmingham? Wouldn't that free us of debt and mean investment in the squad? Oh goody gumdrops, maybe we can make another £100m by offering to change our name? As long as its in our long term interest of course.
It is a strawman .. Comparing moving 5 miles within the same city on the same side of the river and in the same general area of North East London with moving to Beijing? The move is a good option because we can stay relatively close to our home and avail of excellent facilities while making tickets available for all our fans who want to go see games but cant! Moving anywhere else isnt going to happen and especially not after building a new stadium.therecklessone wrote: »What so few of the pro-Stratford mob will acknowledge is that once you cast away our attachment to the area we were founded and have played football for 128 years then you have no moral claim to remaining within any locality. All of the arguments for the transport and infrastructure, all of the arguments for financing, all of them apply away from London as well. Fúck it, Crewe has some of the best railways connections in the world, lets move there.
Well first of all I'm not part of some mob. I have an opinion that I'm entitled to that I was able to piece together on my own .. not part of some mindless group of idiots. I really dont understand you point here .. banging on about moral claims and moving to crewe .. you are just sensetionalising stuff to make it sound like its some kind of crime to move a few miles. We are still a London club in the English premiership with fans from all over london and all oevr the world. We are not some kind of club like leyton orient with an almost entirely local fanbase.therecklessone wrote: »I've been to:
Old Trafford
Anfield
Stamford Bridge
The Emirates
City of Manchester Stadium
Upton Park
Craven Cottage
The DW Stadium
The Reebok
Goodison Park
The Hawthorns
Fratton Park
The Riverside
The Walkers Stadium
The Madejski Stadium
The National Hockey Stadium (MK Dons)
With the exception of Craven Cottage and Fratton Park I have had problems getting into or away from all of them. Only The Emirates of the current top 5 is easier to travel to than WHL.
What is your experience of other stadiums?
I havent been to Goodison, Walkers, MK Dons, the Riverside or the DW but i have been to St. James .. but that isnt really the point. I was talking about London based clubs. Chelsea is simple to get to as is Fulham and Emirates and upton Park. Maybe thats because I live in London and not having to travel from Ireland .. but for me getting to WHL is always a real pain in the ass.therecklessone wrote: »Other fans seem to get this much easier than Spurs fans for some reason, yes it might be prehistoric to cling to tribal rivalries but it is those rivalries that help inject passion into the English game. Once you cast aside a century of tradition you risk reducing the game to just another form of sports entertainment, and why should I feel any affinity towards the 11 players wearing this season's shirt if all it is about is spending discretionary income? I am not a customer, customers wouldn't accept the level of sh1t that we have been dealt for the last two decades (and even as we were on the up we have been fleeced and taken for granted on the commercial side). I am a fan, and that is why I've stuck with the club through thick and thin...to date...
The passion isnt going to change because we move a few miles down the road. As is said earlier it will probably be even stronger with Arse and Chelsea because we will be able to compete with them. Just like we think West Ham fans are annoying a lot of Arse fans think we were. Its only in the last few years since Jol that the rivalry has increased again for Arse fans in general .. how can you be rivals with a club you spank a couple of times eevry season? I dont get spurs fans who are more obsessed with le arse than with us kicking on as club .. its such a small time mentality that we slag ogg hammers for.therecklessone wrote: »What part of this are you not getting? There is no public money available, and other projects that have been mentioned by Levy and co did not receive public funding (The Emirates that I mentioned in a previous post)
Well there is public money available for West Ham .. moral or immoral. Without public funding the WHL redevelopment jsut isnt viable and I personally dont want to wait another 10 years until it becomes availabletherecklessone wrote: »If we go I will walk away from this club, it pains me to think I share a common space with people who are so ready to sell our soul.
.. sell our soul? Well what is our soul and how are we selling it? This is a football club with a philosophy of playing football in a certain way and trying to be successful .. To dare is to do. Id rather see Spurs play the Spurs way with top players and be successful. Would you prefer another 2 decades of mediocrity and relegation battles so you can walk up the high road and drink the Bricklayers? From my perspective its you who is selling our soul and our future as club0 -
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The history and tradition of the club will remain unchanged .. So we are a few miles down the road in a nicer stadium .. so what? Are you from Tottenham .. have you lived there.. why does the area matter so much especially to a fan from Ireland that most people from the area will only turn their noses up as being some kind of plastic fan who jumped on the Spurs bandwagon for no particular reason. Lets be realistic here .. we are Irish fans following a football team in London. Some of us might live in London.. some of us might have ties to the club through relatives .. but at the end of the day what does some dump in North London really mean to you other the meaning you have given it because you have tried to identify with it out of love for a football team. You can romanticise walking up the high road in the pissing rain or eating in Chick King all you want but it still doesnt make it not a ****hole. Why should one ****hole be any different to one 5 miles down the road to a fan not from the area?
It doesn't matter where the hell I'm from, what matters is that as a club we have a sense of belonging. We do not belong in Stratford, quite apart from our own attachment to N17 we would be moving into an area currently occupied by another PL club (and let us not forget Leyton Orient in all of this) who have been playing at the Boelyn Ground since 1904. Yes this move will not extinguish the memory of the double, or our Glory Glory Nights, but it will rent asunder the 128 year connection we have with North London, and that is as much a part of the history and tradition of this club as our white shirts and trophy cabinet.It is a strawman .. Comparing moving 5 miles within the same city on the same side of the river and in the same general area of North East London with moving to Beijing? The move is a good option because we can stay relatively close to our home and avail of excellent facilities while making tickets available for all our fans who want to go see games but cant! Moving anywhere else isnt going to happen and especially not after building a new stadium.
It is entirely relevant. Firstly, it may only be 5 miles but that is a great distance in London when it involves moving Boroughs. And the principle remains the same: should we choose to move further afield (say if Stratford is awarded to West Ham) then all of your arguments remain valid. As long as the money's right we'll go anywhere, yeah?
I have to laugh at your mention of "home" btw, what need have we to stay close to home at all if Tottenham is such a sh1thole?Well first of all I'm not part of some mob. I have an opinion that I'm entitled to that I was able to piece together on my own .. not part of some mindless group of idiots. I really dont understand you point here .. banging on about moral claims and moving to crewe .. you are just sensetionalising stuff to make it sound like its some kind of crime to move a few miles. We are still a London club in the English premiership with fans from all over london and all oevr the world. We are not some kind of club like leyton orient with an almost entirely local fanbase.
I am not sensationalising anything: all of the arguments in favour would hold water if we were to relocate miles from London: good transport links, cheap construction, support from local government, a nice latte and a Nandos after the match. What does it matter if we are in London or not? Are you going to stop supporting the team if we moved further afield? What if it was in our best interests?I havent been to Goodison, Walkers, MK Dons, the Riverside or the DW but i have been to St. James .. but that isnt really the point. I was talking about London based clubs. Chelsea is simple to get to as is Fulham and Emirates and upton Park. Maybe thats because I live in London and not having to travel from Ireland .. but for me getting to WHL is always a real pain in the ass.
I refer only to that element of travel that I have encountered in and around the grounds, so my start point in Dublin has no bearing on the matter. I still stand by my original point, I would much rather the short walk to Northumberland Park for a train to Liverpool Street or the 20mins to Tottenham Hale for the Vic Line than queuing at Upton Park or Fulham Broadway after a game.The passion isnt going to change because we move a few miles down the road. As is said earlier it will probably be even stronger with Arse and Chelsea because we will be able to compete with them. Just like we think West Ham fans are annoying a lot of Arse fans think we were. Its only in the last few years since Jol that the rivalry has increased again for Arse fans in general .. how can you be rivals with a club you spank a couple of times eevry season? I dont get spurs fans who are more obsessed with le arse than with us kicking on as club .. its such a small time mentality that we slag ogg hammers for.
I'm not obsessed with Arsenal, but I recognise who we are and where we come from, and that means retaining enmity for our rivals. I think it is absolute bollox to suggest that rivalries will emerge because of the level we'll be playing at, as if we'll pick and choose a new set of teams to front up to every few years. I want to remember Robbo putting Charlie in the stands, rSol signing for them, then watching him disintegrate in his final game at the Lane for them when we absolutley cained him, them winning the league at our place, assorted **** on their team winding us up over the years, the 5-1, Lennon's goal to make it 4-4 at the Death Star, Kaboul's header to win this season, Gazza's freekick in the North London Cup. Bollox if you think I'm going to retain memories like that about Man City just because they've bucketloads to spend.Well there is public money available for West Ham .. moral or immoral. Without public funding the WHL redevelopment jsut isnt viable and I personally dont want to wait another 10 years until it becomes available
The NPD was viable until about 4 months ago, it is a downright lie to say it is not viable now. It is more costly, but it is viable... sell our soul? Well what is our soul and how are we selling it? This is a football club with a philosophy of playing football in a certain way and trying to be successful .. To dare is to do. Id rather see Spurs play the Spurs way with top players and be successful. Would you prefer another 2 decades of mediocrity and relegation battles so you can walk up the high road and drink the Bricklayers? From my perspective its you who is selling our soul and our future as club
You wish to set a standard, that standard is that everything has a price. I reject that.0
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