Depression

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 10:24AM

Chad ghostal wrote: »

Y

wtf have you been smoking?

He's been smoking a bit of common sense. You should try some.

26-01-2011 10:24AM

I don't think Princess Peach was referring to euthanasia - that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 10:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't think Princess Peach was referring to euthanasia - that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

I'm not just talking about euthanasia, I think everyone should have the right to end their own life what ever their cicumstances.

It's very easy for us here in Ireland for the most part in the lap of luxry to say everyone should want to live.

Life is not that much fun for a lot of people and there's no reason people can't evaluate that rationally and actually choose not to want to live anymore without them having some mental problem.

26-01-2011 10:31AM

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm not just talking about euthanasia, I think everyone should have the right to end their own life what ever their cicumstances.

It's very easy for us here in Ireland for the most part in the lap of luxry to say everyone should want to live.

Life is not that much fun for a lot of people and there's no reason people can't evaluate that rationally and actually choose not to want to live anymore without them having some mental problem.

Yet what of the people you left behind? What of the families of the 5 people that committed suicide in Offaly What have you got to say to them? That they made the right choice?

sunflower27 · 26-01-2011 10:35AM

Think I may be suffering depression at the moment

Lost my job in December and had a serious relationship split a few weeks ago.

Finding it hard to look forward; finding it hard to see the light at the end.

Maybe it is because it is all so raw. I dont feel i want to go down the AD route but if I am not feeling better in the next month then I will think about it again.

Oh to be happy and laughing again (and I mean really laughing; not feeling as if I am putting it on)

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 10:43AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yet what of the people you left behind? What of the families of the 5 people that committed suicide in Offaly What have you got to say to them? That they made the right choice?

You can't live your life for other people. I don't know the circumstances of the offaly situation. It's not always right, but it's not always wrong.

Lumen · 26-01-2011 10:48AM

ntlbell wrote: »

It might not be for you.

An example was that irish (i think he was irish) rugby player, 19 paralised for life from the neck down. Who's parents brought him to swizterland to end his life.

You can't say that wasn't right, only he could decide what was right for him and to be a perfectly viable option. Keeping him alive against his will and torturing him for 70/80 years. That's a soloution?

19 year olds are not known for their sense of perspective or ability to think clearly about the long term future.

You also have no idea whether his life would have been torture. I'm sure it felt that way at the time. Maybe he would have gotten over it. Maybe not.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 10:52AM

Lumen wrote: »

19 year olds are not known for their sense of perspective or ability to think clearly about the long term future.

I think his future was pretty obvious, 19 or not.

Lumen wrote: »

You also have no idea whether his life would have been torture. I'm sure it felt that way at the time. Maybe he would have gotten over it. Maybe not.

Maybe he didn't want to get over it? maybe he didn't want to burden his parents for the rest of their years? or watch all his friends live a life he never could etc.

I don't know, you don't know, but I respect his choice and he shouldn't have had to do it in switzerland.

Wibbs · 26-01-2011 10:53AM

Deleted User wrote:

I don't think Princess Peach was referring to euthanasia - that's an entirely different kettle of fish.

I think Naikon and ntlbell were simply arguing that there may be overlap between the two. However small(which I would agree with).

The 5 outa 6 mature male suicides doesn't surprise me one bit tbh. Elderly men killing themselves is actually quite common and has been forever. It's one of the hidden stats. What seems different is the mature 30's to 50's guys doing it. Guys that in other generations and times would be least likely to.

Personally I can think of a number of guys 35 to 50 year old family men, crippled by debt, with little obvious hope for the future and every day they switch on the news it seems the tunnel is getting longer and the light at the end of it more distant. Quite a number of them have kept the wife in the dark about the extent of the trouble too(silly). Though the wives must be 24 carat morons not to spot it. Maybe that's their way of coping though. Ignore it. Understandable.

These are men who have little of a safety net(self employed so few entitlements) and when no jobs are coming in, mortgages haven't been paid in months, bills are piling up and they're digging down the back of sofas for food money for their kids, you can well understand them looking for "a way out".

This may sound extreme to some, especially if they revolve in relatively stable PAYE or public sector circles, but it's not that uncommon at all. Like I said I know quite a number of men like this.

And how do you fix this? Very difficult I would say. It's not chemical/biological depression(though may end up that way), its almost entirely situational. No amount of talking or medication will pay these family's bills, or take away the background issues. It's a tough one.

Wibbs · 26-01-2011 11:00AM

ntlbell wrote: »

I think his future was pretty obvious, 19 or not.

I would tend to agree. We are usually OK with someone terminally ill seeking to take the choice into their own hands, but what does terminal mean beyond the obvious? Practically speaking it means that your future is finite. Hope's and dreams are gone or have a severely restricted shelf life. For a 19 year old paralysed from the neck down, living on machines, being entirely reliant on others, with little hope of the milestones others take for granted, or even the simple pleasure of scratching an itchy nose? That's pretty close to "terminal" to be fair. An example of the living dead for most people. I admire someone who can move beyond that and carve a life out of such rotten stone, but equally understand someone wanting no part of it.

Lumen · 26-01-2011 11:23AM

Wibbs wrote: »

I would tend to agree. We are usually OK with someone terminally ill seeking to take the choice into their own hands, but what does terminal mean beyond the obvious? Practically speaking it means that your future is finite. Hope's and dreams are gone or have a severely restricted shelf life. For a 19 year old paralysed from the neck down, living on machines, being entirely reliant on others, with little hope of the milestones others take for granted, or even the simple pleasure of scratching an itchy nose? That's pretty close to "terminal" to be fair. An example of the living dead for most people. I admire someone who can move beyond that and carve a life out of such rotten stone, but equally understand someone wanting no part of it.

So can I.

I was only pointing out that the statement about "torturing him for 70/80 years" was speculative.

Luxie · 26-01-2011 01:03PM

Susannahmia wrote: »

Ok, just imagine the feeling you would get if you for example just realized you had a vitally important exam in two hours and you haven't studied for it.

Now multiply that by two and imagine having that feeling constantly for no logical or discernible reason along with feeling miserable and being completely unable to do or enjoy anything.

That's how it was for me at my worst point anyway.

Anxiety was the worst symptom for me, (I was diagnosed with clinical depression with generalized anxiety symptoms.)

For me it was PTSS. It seemed like a chicken and egg scenario where going out made me feel physically ill, which I then avoided like the plague, which in turn left me depressed. But it took five odd years to ascertain all that. I didn't actually realise I had advanced anxiety (well, not at first, over time I thought I need to see if anything can be done about this), I just thought I was a natural stresshead, daft and all as that sounds now.

Tchaikovsky · 26-01-2011 02:49PM

ntlbell wrote: »

You can't live your life for other people. I don't know the circumstances of the offaly situation. It's not always right, but it's not always wrong.

It's a very selfish stance to take. Everyone has family and friends, and as I know from personal experience, the effects of suicide is everlasting.
It's a long-term solution to a short-term problem, as the saying goes.

Chad ghostal · 26-01-2011 03:14PM

ntlbell wrote: »

He's been smoking a bit of common sense. You should try some.

It's common sense to believe that "society" is conspiring to keep people alive to take money and "resources" from them? the notion is beyond ridiculous..

I was not in any way arguing that people should not have the right to take their own life, but that they should seek help in order to try and improve their life first; before killing themselves, removing any chance of rehabilitation.

Panrich · 26-01-2011 03:16PM

Talking of people with massive debts looking for a way out takes no account of the families they leave worse off by their actions.

Young people paralysed at 19 is sad but life often deals you a bad hand. It's how you deal with adversity like this that makes the difference.

Christy Brown overcame cerebral palsy to become a successful writer and painter. Stephen Hawking has battled motor neuron disease to become the pre-eminent physicist of his generation. Both are excellent examples of people not allowing their personal misfortune shape their destiny.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 03:19PM

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

It's a very selfish stance to take. Everyone has family and friends, and as I know from personal experience, the effects of suicide is everlasting.
It's a long-term solution to a short-term problem, as the saying goes.

No matter what way you look at there's aspects of selfishness.

Youl could make a claim human reproduction is a selfish act.

Friends and familiy expecting you to continue to live when you have no inclination to do so to protect their feelings? selfish?

long-term soloution to a short term problem is a cliche thrown out by people who don't want to try and comprhend that some people might just have no interest in living. Not everyone views life the way you do and people should have the right not to continue if they so wish.

Not everyone who doesn't want to live has depression, or in debt or has no friends or a **** job, but it's our nature to try and fix everything we precive as a "problem" sometimes there is no problem to fix.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 03:22PM

Chad ghostal wrote: »

It's common sense to believe that "society" is conspiring to keep people alive to take money and "resources" from them? the notion is beyond ridiculous..

I was not in any way arguing that people should not have the right to take their own life, but that they should seek help in order to try and improve their life first; before killing themselves, removing any chance of rehabilitation.

but by suggesting they should seek help you're assuming there is a problem in the first place, as I said sometimes there is no problem.

Panrich · 26-01-2011 03:27PM

ntlbell wrote: »

but by suggesting they should seek help you're assuming there is a problem in the first place, as I said sometimes there is no problem.

In most cases there is the 'problem' of the effect the solution has on family and loved ones. It takes selfishness to a whole new sphere to refuse to acknowledge this.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 03:29PM

Panrich wrote: »

In most cases there is the 'problem' of the effect the solution has on family and loved ones. It takes selfishness to a whole new sphere to refuse to acknowledge this.

How will the familiy and loved ones be affected if they decide not to for their sake and then every waking moment for that person is living hell?

Will that cheer them up?

are familiy and loved ones not suppose to want what's best for you? to be understanding? forgiving?

Lumen · 26-01-2011 03:35PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Personally I can think of a number of guys 35 to 50 year old family men, crippled by debt, with little obvious hope for the future and every day they switch on the news it seems the tunnel is getting longer and the light at the end of it more distant. Quite a number of them have kept the wife in the dark about the extent of the trouble too(silly). Though the wives must be 24 carat morons not to spot it. Maybe that's their way of coping though. Ignore it. Understandable.

These are men who have little of a safety net(self employed so few entitlements) and when no jobs are coming in, mortgages haven't been paid in months, bills are piling up and they're digging down the back of sofas for food money for their kids, you can well understand them looking for "a way out".

This may sound extreme to some, especially if they revolve in relatively stable PAYE or public sector circles, but it's not that uncommon at all. Like I said I know quite a number of men like this.

And how do you fix this? Very difficult I would say. It's not chemical/biological depression(though may end up that way), its almost entirely situational. No amount of talking or medication will pay these family's bills, or take away the background issues. It's a tough one.

If suicide was a reasonable response to poverty, humankind would be extinct.

Chad ghostal · 26-01-2011 03:37PM

ntlbell wrote: »

as I said sometimes there is no problem.

you have lost me.. if someone is depressed, there is a problem. Whether it is something in their lives that is affecting them or a chemical imbalance, depression is a problem.

While people are depressed, they are not thinking clearly and should seek help in order to be able to see what options they have. If they have no options and are in a situation where they are in a state of constant pain (mental or otherwise) then, absolutely they should have the right to decide what to do with themselves. But it should be a last resort as MOST people do not have problems that would result in their quality of life being permanently destroyed.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 03:39PM

Chad ghostal wrote: »

you have lost me.. if someone is depressed, there is a problem. Whether it is something in their lives that is affecting them or a chemical imbalance, depression is a problem.

I'm suggesting that not everyone who wants to end their life is depressed. I thought this was fairly obvious?

Chad ghostal wrote: »

While people are depressed, they are not thinking clearly and should seek help in order to be able to see what options they have. If they have no options and are in a situation where they are in a state of constant pain (mental or otherwise) then, absolutely they should have the right to decide what to do with themselves. But it should be a last resort as MOST people do not have problems that would result in their quality of life being permanently destroyed.

Right, if people are depressed they should seek help. no one's suggesting otherwise.

Tchaikovsky · 26-01-2011 03:42PM

ntlbell wrote: »

How will the familiy and loved ones be affected if they decide not to for their sake and then every waking moment for that person is living hell?

Will that cheer them up?

are familiy and loved ones not suppose to want what's best for you? to be understanding? forgiving?

Well the last thing they would want is for their loved one to be 6 feet under. There are always solutions and ways out of living hells. Humans are an incredibly resilient species, capable of surviving through the most horrendous of circumstances.

I'm guessing you've never been affected by suicide?

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 03:45PM

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Well the last thing they would want is for their loved one to be 6 feet under. There are always solutions and ways out of living hells. Humans are an incredibly resilient species, capable of surviving through the most horrendous of circumstances.

But does "their" wants not make them selfish? Why is this selfishness only one sided in relation to suicide? Again, horrendous cimstances, blah blah. putting problems in the way for an explanation, the only problem maybe they don't want to live. This seems to be very hard for people to understand.

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

I'm guessing you've never been affected by suicide?

Yes, Yes I have.

Chad ghostal · 26-01-2011 03:59PM

ntlbell wrote: »

He's been smoking a bit of common sense. You should try some.

ntlbell wrote: »

I think his future was pretty obvious, 19 or not.

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm suggesting that not everyone who wants to end their life is depressed. I thought this was fairly obvious?

That's not what I was arguing about

are you just being patronising to every comment you get?

ntlbell wrote: »

and a bit less patronoising comments.

It would be nice if you at least followed your own advice.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 04:02PM

Chad ghostal wrote: »

That's not what I was arguing about are you just being patronising to every comment you get?

It would be nice if you at least followed your own advice.

It's what was been discussed for a number of pages, I thought you were following the thread. if not.

yes people with depression should seek help.

Now, can we move on.

Tchaikovsky · 26-01-2011 04:09PM

ntlbell wrote: »

But does "their" wants not make them selfish? Why is this selfishness only one sided in relation to suicide? Again, horrendous cimstances, blah blah. putting problems in the way for an explanation, the only problem maybe they don't want to live. This seems to be very hard for people to understand.

It's hard for people to understand because it's an unnatural way of thinking.

Selfishness is one-sided because once you're dead, there's no going back.

midlandsmissus · 26-01-2011 04:09PM

They say everyone considers suicide at some point in their lives. I have really seriously I'd say on two occasions, really thinking "I can't go on, I'm definitely going to do it".
What stopped me was the pain I'd cause my mother, and thinking "I can't do that to her".
I know no helpine, or person or friend would have helped me at that stage. You make the decision yourself, no external factor will help you when you're that low. Which is why friends/family should never blame themselves.

I'm definitely not suicidal now, but it's weird, I remember the day I thought I was definitely going to do it, a good while ago now, and I remember that the whole day, time seemed to literally slow down. Everything seemed to slow down, people moving, everything.

ntlbell · 26-01-2011 04:12PM

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

It's hard for people to understand because it's an unnatural way of thinking.

It's different, sure.

I don't understand people who play piano, or cricket, or take coke bottles up their ring. Different strokes.

Tchaikovsky wrote: »

Selfishness is one-sided because once you're dead, there's no going back.

People are incredibly reslieant specices you said, will get over the most horredous circumstances? right?

They'll get over it.

Tchaikovsky · 26-01-2011 04:18PM

ntlbell wrote: »

It's different, sure.

I don't understand people who play piano, or cricket, or take coke bottles up their ring. Different strokes.

People are incredibly reslieant specices you said, will get over the most horredous circumstances? right?

They'll get over it.

I can't believe you're equating killing yourself with playing piano, as if it was a hobbie or something!

You never get over a death, especially if it's a sudden one. You might learn to cope, but things are irretrievably changed.

Depression

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