Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

ILA · 21-01-2011 10:52AM

Vote No.1.

Why the disregard? Because of ignorance on the part of many and for others the policies of Sinn Fein are a direct threat to their class (self) interest (i.e: the rich, speculators, the incompetent in our public services)

ILA · 21-01-2011 10:55AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well obviously they don't kneecap everyone who disagrees with them, but if you're unlucky they will do worse, like gut you so that your bowels are spilling onto the street like Robert McCartney, or execute you with a shot to the back of the head like Jim Curran. Incidentally, have the Shinners who murdered Robert McCartney been brought to justice yet? If not, why not?

Absolute rubbish which I'm not going to dignify with a response.

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 10:55AM

Wide Road wrote: »

I agree with a lot of what you say (fellow) Tipp Man, but doesn't it sound silly that our govt are happy with Sinn Fein in power up north but not down south.

good to know i'm not alone!!

How much power do they actually have up north?? The purse strings are controlled from London - the major policies come from london.

Belfast has far less control over its own destiny than Wales or definately Scotland - its a bit of a sham IMO

For me you can look at SF in "power" in the north in 2 ways:

they have a lot of power in which case they are responsible for the huge cuts in government spending which surely goes against what they as a party believe in. In which case they are just as hypocritical as every party down here
all the (major) shots in the North are still called by London so it is a bit of a pharce to say SF are in power in the North - if a party can't implement its own policies then how can it be in "power" in the country?? But SF followers don't want to hear that

SF in the North seem to go against everything they supposedly stand for - so for me it has to be 1 of the 2 reasons above. And if its reason 2 then I don't think that SF supporters can use the example of NI as an example of SF in "power" which they so often like to do. Just my opinion of course

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 11:01AM

Tipp Man wrote: »

good to know i'm not alone!!

How much power do they actually have up north?? The purse strings are controlled from London - the major policies come from london.

Belfast has far less control over its own destiny than Wales or definately Scotland - its a bit of a sham IMO

For me you can look at SF in "power" in the north in 2 ways:
they have a lot of power in which case they are responsible for the huge cuts in government spending which surely goes against what they as a party believe in. In which case they are just as hypocritical as every party down here

all the (major) shots in the North are still called by London so it is a bit of a pharce to say SF are in power in the North - if a party can't implement its own policies then how can it be in "power" in the country?? But SF followers don't want to hear that

SF in the North seem to go against everything they supposedly stand for - so for me it has to be 1 of the 2 reasons above. And if its reason 2 then I don't think that SF supporters can use the example of NI as an example of SF in "power" which they so often like to do. Just my opinion of course

Their electorate is changing. They're attracting middle class voters now who previously would have voted SDLP. They therefore have to be a bit more right wing in the north

Monty Burnz · 21-01-2011 11:09AM

ILA wrote: »

Absolute rubbish which I'm not going to dignify with a response.

Rubbish? I can see why you don't want to address this issue, and that attitude is a bit of a turn-off for those of us who don't like our politicians to be linked to butchers.

Nice of you to hold up the white flag so obviously though.

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 11:14AM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Their electorate is changing. They're attracting middle class voters now who previously would have voted SDLP. They therefore have to be a bit more right wing in the north

Isn't that the whole point of my post

They are flip flopping with their policies to see which will get them the most votes. If you are a left wing socialist party then have left wing socialist policies.

All SF are doing is pandering to the masses, saying whatever needs to be said to get votes - as you say yourself

Why can't they have the courage of their convictions (tm Johnny G:D) to pursue their left wing sociliast policies?? Why feel the need to be a bit more right wing if their left wing policies are so good??

I want a party to come out with its policies and stick to them and implement them if they get into power - not somebody who'll change policies faster than the weather changes

Does this make them any less hypocritical than any of the other Irish parties? Why should we trust anything they say any more than any other Irish party?

Monty Burnz · 21-01-2011 11:17AM

Tipp Man wrote: »

I want a party to come out with its policies and stick to them and implement them if they get into power - not somebody who'll change policies faster than the weather changes

True. Those who voted for Fianna Failure didn't know what the hell they were voting for. One minute they are scrapping financial regulation and jumping in bed with developers, next thing Bertie is claiming he's a socialist. Bizarre. You need to know what you are getting when you vote, and Fianna Failure stand for nothing except for themselves and whoever is giving them the brown envelopes. At least Sinn Fein have a position on economics (left wing) so you know what to expect if you vote them in.

DJCR · 21-01-2011 11:50AM

The FF faithfull - yes they still exist will have major issues when it comes to voting.

They won't vote FG on principal.
Won't vote Lab as it is essentially a vote for FG. (Lab have admitted this themselves with most high ranking Lab TD's preaching that the next govt. is a FGLAB govt.)

So who does this leave for transfers and so called tactical voting. (Please don't lecture about cronyism over this remark everyone knows its going to happen that there will be a high FG -> Lab percentage)

Is Sinn Fein the only Viable alternative as the Greens have proven themselves spineless and Vincent Browne aka "GOD" to those who seem to detest RTE reporting :rolleyes: has indicated he expects them to have no seats in the next government.

So heres the Question - Will FF Supporters transfer to Sinn Fein?

21-01-2011 11:53AM

Vote SF?
Are you menthol?

Monty Burnz · 21-01-2011 11:57AM

DJCR wrote: »

The FF faithfull - yes they still exist will have major issues when it comes to voting.

They won't vote FG on principal.

This tells you all you need to know about those morons. FG are basically a less corrupt version of Fianna Failure that didn't wipe out the economy with a crazy asset bubble.

Rather than change from Barry's Tea to Lyons Tea, they will switch to tequila instead, just to spite those Lyons bastards.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 12:01PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Isn't that the whole point of my post

They are flip flopping with their policies to see which will get them the most votes. If you are a left wing socialist party then have left wing socialist policies.

All SF are doing is pandering to the masses, saying whatever needs to be said to get votes - as you say yourself

Why can't they have the courage of their convictions (tm Johnny G:D) to pursue their left wing sociliast policies?? Why feel the need to be a bit more right wing if their left wing policies are so good??

I want a party to come out with its policies and stick to them and implement them if they get into power - not somebody who'll change policies faster than the weather changes

Does this make them any less hypocritical than any of the other Irish parties? Why should we trust anything they say any more than any other Irish party?

They're not a socialist party. They're social democrats which is a lot closer to capitalism than socialism. Actually it simply is just capitalism.

I think people are over-critical of them for having different policies for north and south. Stormont is a pseudo-parliament. Westminister tells them how much pocket money they're allowed to have so Sinn Fein/DUP have no choice but to implement cuts.

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 12:04PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

They're not a socialist party. They're social democrats which is a lot closer to capitalism than socialism. Actually it simply is just capitalism.

Ah come on now - who are you trying to kid here. SF are a capitalist party??!! - wow I'd hate to hear what you'd define as a socialist

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 12:05PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This tells you all you need to know about those morons. FG are basically a less corrupt version of Fianna Failure that didn't wipe out the economy with a crazy asset bubble.

Rather than change from Barry's Tea to Lyons Tea, they will switch to tequila instead, just to spite those Lyons bastards.

Brilliant

the_syco · 21-01-2011 12:11PM

IRcolm wrote: »

And I don't want the first post after this to be "They're murdering Scum" and get a million thanks. (Which someone will definitely do now that I've written that).

How about: one of their members have driven Gardaí murdering IRA members from prison? Silly move, and I'd say such silly moves are not easily forgotten by people?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 12:13PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Ah come on now - who are you trying to kid here. SF are a capitalist party??!! - wow I'd hate to hear what you'd define as a socialist

Cuba, the former USSR, Eirigi, Irish Republican Socialist Party.

Are Sinn Fein looking for a state controlled economy? Are Sinn Fein looking for the workers to own, control and share all profits in businesses?

They are not socialist.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 12:14PM

the_syco wrote: »

How about: one of their members have driven Gardaí murdering IRA members from prison? Silly move, and I'd say such silly moves are not easily forgotten by people?

Not just a member, he was a TD. Don't know why they did that. Though they're too cunning for there not to be a reason.

MagicSean · 21-01-2011 12:15PM

How can you have a party in control who has no respect for the law?

Monty Burnz · 21-01-2011 12:19PM

k_mac wrote: »

How can you have a party in control who has no respect for the law?

*cough* Fianna Fail *cough*

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 12:31PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Cuba, the former USSR, Eirigi, Irish Republican Socialist Party.

Are Sinn Fein looking for a state controlled economy? Are Sinn Fein looking for the workers to own, control and share all profits in businesses?

They are not socialist.

I'm curious

Does Gerry Adams not admire the "work" that Castro has done as the Cuban leader?? did he not fly to Cuba to thank him personally for his support? The same as Mugabe and Chavez have done. Or are they capitalists as well

Has Gerry Adams been a visitor to the communist party conventions in the former USSR??

Does SF allign itself with socialist or communist parties in the European Parliament??

DJCR · 21-01-2011 12:58PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Rather than change from Barry's Tea to Lyons Tea, they will switch to tequila instead, just to spite those Lyons bastards.

Ah well there are a lot of morons no matter what we talk about:-

Dubs Vs. the rest
Beamish Vs. Guiness
Aer lingus Vs. Change
Crisps Vs. Taytos

Everyone has a rival .... its normal!!

Saying that ...... in the current climate Tequila may be whats needed, if nothing else all of my troubles will be gone for a while.

MagicSean · 21-01-2011 01:02PM

k_mac wrote: »

How can you have a party in control who has no respect for the law?

At least they try and hide it. They may be greedy but they're a far cry from condoning murder.

Fratton Fred · 21-01-2011 01:34PM

Sinn fein aren't too bad, but tbh, It's their supporters that really put me off voting for them.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 01:43PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

I'm curious

Does Gerry Adams not admire the "work" that Castro has done as the Cuban leader?? did he not fly to Cuba to thank him personally for his support? The same as Mugabe and Chavez have done. Or are they capitalists as well

Has Gerry Adams been a visitor to the communist party conventions in the former USSR??

Does SF allign itself with socialist or communist parties in the European Parliament??

During the troubles they recruited support and IRA members from the working class and rallied against the ruling class. James Connolly was a socialist. They have to pay lip service to it but the fact remains that their modern policies do not resemble anything like socialism or communism.

KeithAFC · 21-01-2011 02:30PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sinn Fein today are intertwined with it

6 mins 30 secs in former IRA man Brendan Hughes tells all about the murder
of Jean Mc Conville implicating Gerry Adams in her murder
RTE Documentary "Voices from the grave"

so yeah its totally relevant

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/30/northernireland.northernireland1

Brendan Huges also accuses Adams of being in charge of "The Unknowns" who made people "disappear".

Very good video which sums up who is running Sinn Fein. Brendan Hughes is a republican hero to many people on the ground. Gerry Adams actually spits on the legacy of fallen republicans.

RIP Jean.

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 03:01PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

During the troubles they recruited support and IRA members from the working class and rallied against the ruling class. James Connolly was a socialist. They have to pay lip service to it but the fact remains that their modern policies do not resemble anything like socialism or communism.

To be quite frank about it I don't give a damn what James Connelly's economic incline was - he's not going to be running the country after the next election

The fact is that Sein Fein joined the European United Left Party in 2004 - a fairly hardline party made up of a lot of communists and former communists

Gerry went to see Castro in Cuba in 2001 (or 2002??).

Forgive me if I'm cynical but aren't both of these events, long after the troubles had come to an end??

Bottle_of_Smoke · 21-01-2011 03:12PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

To be quite frank about it I don't give a damn what James Connelly's economic incline was - he's not going to be running the country after the next election

Hold your horses. I meant that in the context that James Connolly is a republican hero, that's why they have to pay lip service. Personally I'm completely against socialism for Ireland.

The fact is that Sein Fein joined the European United Left Party in 2004 - a fairly hardline party made up of a lot of communists and former communists

Europe's perfect for paying lip service without actually doing anything.

Gerry went to see Castro in Cuba in 2001 (or 2002??).

He met with Hamas last year, doesn't mean he's planning for an Islamic Republic of Eire

Forgive me if I'm cynical but aren't both of these events, long after the troubles had come to an end??

There's simply no appetite for socialism in Ireland. There'd be revolution if it was attempted.

Before you reply remind yourself I am referring to real socialism, not this modern idea that socialism is the state putting extra funding into the health service.

RandomName2 · 21-01-2011 03:20PM

IRcolm wrote: »

This is based on the assumption people have had similar experiences as I have. This is a genuine question, with the election imminent I'm weighing up my options and without thinking I wrote off Sinn Féin. I've never really considered voting for them and probably won't, but why is their a casual disregard of their status as a viable party to vote for.

Okay, so we have Adams who vehemently denies leading the IRA when it's plain he had more than any old casual involvement. But Fiann Fáil are a party built on violence, and the War was won by tactics similar to that employed by the IRA of modern times, with 1916 having less of a mandate. (I'd presume).

I am not advocating this, or saying I supported it. My point is, is there something beyond the paramilitary history that warrants the sneer at the 'Sinners'? Especially now that there is a vacuum in Irish politics for a credible alternative to the main parties? If I'm honest I wouldn't be too up to speed with any SF policies, but is there reason to believe they may perform well in this election if people begin to look at them in a different light, as a political part with political policies?

The main reasons why SF are written off are because:
1) Their connection to violence is quite significant. They have members who were in the IRA, members who are apologists for the IRA, members who negotiated on the part of the IRA, etc. It is mainly the Good Friday Agreement that forms any sort of barrier.

The analogy of Fine Gael/ Fianna Fail is not appropriate unless we think of them in terms of the 1920s. However, there was no political alternative between CnG and Fianna Fail at the time (in reality - technically the Redmonistes and Labour parties were there but were minor forces). Note the big problems that civil war politics did create though when talking about this.

2) Sinn Fein have typically been composed of radical and slightly loopy ideologies. That is the point of a fringe group, and the manner it maintains its (albeit limited) support base. HOWEVER Sinn Fein have recently made noises that sound closer to the centre ground than previous pronouncements. Are they changing tack, or just trying to appeal to a broader market???

3) Sinn Fein's politics are more supernatonal than any other party in Ireland. It brings in awkward considerations concerning Stormont, Westminster, and Europe. A vote for a Sinn Fein is a vote for a united Ireland and leaving the EU? Quite likely: and add shadows of terrorism and socialism to the mix and you have a combination that looks like it might be trouble if given too much political leverage.

4) Most parties don't like the idea of forming a coalition with Sinn Fein. Fianna Fail would be their most likely partner at these present times. The reasons why this might make Sinn Fein be 'disregarded' are self evident.

Hannibal · 21-01-2011 03:24PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Well obviously they don't kneecap everyone who disagrees with them, but if you're unlucky they will do worse, like gut you so that your bowels are spilling onto the street like Robert McCartney, or execute you with a shot to the back of the head like Jim Curran

the murderer of Jim Curran has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Fein, he was a member if the PIRA at one stage. There's a big difference there

Hannibal · 21-01-2011 03:29PM

Tipp Man wrote: »

Does Gerry Adams not admire the "work" that Castro has done as the Cuban leader?? did he not fly to Cuba to thank him personally for his support? The same as Mugabe and Chavez have done. Or are they capitalists as well

Does SF allign itself with socialist or communist parties in the European Parliament??

What has Chavez done bad with Venezuela apart from standing up for the people and national interests before American profit??
Robert Mugabe was once knighted by the Queen whats your point?? Zimbabwe of part of the Non Aligned movement along with many countries and he wouldve met Raul Castro at summit meetings same way Obama is meeting with Chinas president this week. Doesnt make them friends

MagicSean · 21-01-2011 03:31PM

Dotsey wrote: »

the murderer of Jim Curran has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Fein, he was a member if the PIRA at one stage. There's a big difference there

Between the PIRA and Sinn Fein?

Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

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