Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

ILA · 21-01-2011 11:48AM

Support the Workers!

bada_bing · 21-01-2011 11:48AM

850 hours a year for CC????? that's less than half of what the average 9 to 5 person works in a year. I used my employment as an example e.g. 365 - 102 ( weekends) - 10 ( bank holidays) - 20 (annual leave) = 233 * 7.5 hours a day gives you 1747.5 hours a year for me. and that's all before you add in overtime & travelling abroad on the job.
Seems they are indeed pampered , spoilt and out of touch with reality!!!!

kevinmcc · 21-01-2011 11:55AM

Sack them all I say! I'd take their job if they paid me half what they are on! I'll work 12 hours without a break, seeing as I'll have a day in New York or Orlando to rest right after it

I seen on someone who works for EI's facebook page that they were on the Orlando route recently and stayed there for 3 days before having to fly back, and they think they have it tough :rolleyes:

And what's this about crew having family commitments, ****s sake your in the airline industry, flexibility will be required!

Wibbs · 21-01-2011 11:56AM

Joey the lips wrote: »

I love the work class attitude that exists in this country.

"Work class"? sorry don't follow you.

We have unions with no power.

ha.. ha..hahahhahhahahahhahahahhahahahhaha Ah jesus stop Joey, I'm squirting my elevenses out of my nose here. Croke park agreement anyone. Heads of unions being directors on various banks etc. You have got to be effin joking. Try the self employed who have absolutely zero power and are entitled to eff all. Now there you may have a point. But unions and unionised workers? Eh no. Just no.

People on crap wages.

Less hilarious, but kinda mirth worthy. We have high wages in this country. We're pricing ourselves out of the international markets in a few areas. And no I'm not talking the two bowls of rice a day jobs either.

a goverment who plays golf with manageing directors rather than look after us

True but unrelated. Well... not if we go back to the same union leaders with "interesting" connections.

saywhatyousee · 21-01-2011 11:56AM

bada_bing wrote: »

850 hours a year for CC????? that's less than half of what the average 9 to 5 person works in a year. I used my employment as an example e.g. 365 - 102 ( weekends) - 10 ( bank holidays) - 20 (annual leave) = 233 * 7.5 hours a day gives you 1747.5 hours a year for me. and that's all before you add in overtime & travelling abroad on the job.
Seems they are indeed pampered , spoilt and out of touch with reality!!!!

850 is just flying hours i presume they do hours on the ground unless they all work part time

Wibbs · 21-01-2011 11:57AM

ILA wrote: »

Support the Workers!

Buy bras!

SeaFields · 21-01-2011 11:59AM

I'm not too familiar with the whole thing but I wonder is there significance in that at the moment its only the Dublin staff involved in this dispute?

Seems like the Cork and Shannon crews are just getting on with it as per the agreement. Or is it likely to spread?

I'm flying out of Cork next Saturday. Will be a very, very angry man if my holiday is cancelled because of this.

cock robin · 21-01-2011 11:59AM

Sack the lot of em. Sure all they do is serve tea in the sky FFS. Hardly rocket science.

LittleBook · 21-01-2011 11:59AM

Journal.ie

The discrimination claims centre on the question of whether the airline had breached equality laws, as the new rosters had a greater impact on female staff by making it impossible for them to handle their family responsibilities.

Oh I see, because only women can handle their family responsibilities.

I wonder how those of us who find it necessary to work more than an average of 20 hours per week manage? :rolleyes:

Keep digging that hole ladies.

saywhatyousee · 21-01-2011 12:02PM

SeaFields wrote: »

I'm not too familiar with the whole thing but I wonder is there significance in that at the moment its only the Dublin staff involved in this dispute?

Seems like the Cork and Shannon crews are just getting on with it as per the agreement. Or is it likely to spread?

I'm flying out of Cork next Saturday. Will be a very, very angry man if my holiday is cancelled because of this.

could be worse i am flying from dublin tomorrow with them:eek::eek:

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 12:30PM

Unions - the ruination of many a good company and some bad ones as well

Lord Trollington · 21-01-2011 12:50PM

bada_bing wrote: »

850 hours a year for CC????? that's less than half of what the average 9 to 5 person works in a year. I used my employment as an example e.g. 365 - 102 ( weekends) - 10 ( bank holidays) - 20 (annual leave) = 233 * 7.5 hours a day gives you 1747.5 hours a year for me. and that's all before you add in overtime & travelling abroad on the job.
Seems they are indeed pampered , spoilt and out of touch with reality!!!!

Don't comment on something you know nothing about. The 850 hours is 850 hours flight time, not actual working hours. So its basically from the time the aircraft takes of until it lands and reaches its gate.

Having worked in Aerlingus in the past i know how it goes.

As Cabin Crew you check in an hour before a flight, and 2 hours before an Transatlantic flight.

Cabin Crew work unsocialble hours 7 days a week, bank holiday, easter, christmas all year round.

Its not all the glitz and glam that some people would make it out to be.

You fly to a destination, turn around and come back.

If you do happen to do a Transatlantic flight, You fly out for up to a 14 hour duty, and then stay one night away from your family/friends and fly back the following day through the night Irish Time.
You get home and your not worth a sh*t for 2 days because your body clock is all over the place.

There are many different aspects to this dispute. One of which is Aerlingus do not wish to grant a half hour meal break during a duty. A duty could last anything up to a 10 hour day. In what other job would someone not get a half hour break during a 9 hour day?

In saying that, there are plenty of people in Aerlingus that should be glad they have a job.

I'm neither siding with the Union or the Company, but people should know all the facts.

FlutterinBantam · 21-01-2011 12:53PM

OutlawPete wrote: »

Quite a sweeping statement and if all unions did was act like the world owed them a living, their members would not tolerate it.

Why would they? For one - it would get them nowhere in the longrun.

Also, someone doesn't have to be a socialist to see the value in unions. It has become fashionable to deride them in this day an age, for whatever reason I don't know. You seem to be blind to how destructive capitalism would be without them.

I'm not saying that they can be whiter than snow and are always acting from a position of genuine grievance, but without them this country would go to shit if it hasn't already that is.

Unions are (or should be) just there to balance the power that management has over them. The potential for abuse of that power is massive the moral rights of workers need a voice and unions have to be it.

You simply cannot have a fair and democratic capitalist society without them.

Why is it in a company (Aer Lingus) which never has had forced redundancies,has conditions ,perks, pay and a career path which many can only look enviously at, have such an appalling industrial relations history?

Why?

Because over the years the Unions held a stranglehold over the Company, because a certain coterie in the workforce saw the advantage of this and using the strength behind them succeeded in binding Aer Lingus in a skein of rules regulations conditions which would take a constitutional lawyer to unravel.

This would wear in the 'old days' when a nod and a wink and a years discussion with plenty of working lunches and drinks and 'fact finding missions'

Then the chairs would be re-arranged, nothing would change and everyone would carry on until someone felt 'put upon' and needed a bit of disruption,totally confident that a few weeks later there would be no recriminations, no hard feelings and the same old bandwagon would rumble on to next dispute.

Those days are well gone , time you realised it.

Lord Trollington · 21-01-2011 12:53PM

saywhatyousee wrote: »

could be worse i am flying from dublin tomorrow with them:eek::eek:

Where are you flying to, I could guess if you will be effected or not.

will1977 · 21-01-2011 01:11PM

whycliff wrote: »

Don't comment on something you know nothing about. The 850 hours is 850 hours flight time, not actual working hours. So its basically from the time the aircraft takes of until it lands and reaches its gate.

Having worked in Aerlingus in the past i know how it goes.

As Cabin Crew you check in an hour before a flight, and 2 hours before an Transatlantic flight.

Cabin Crew work unsocialble hours 7 days a week, bank holiday, easter, christmas all year round.

Its not all the glitz and glam that some people would make it out to be.

You fly to a destination, turn around and come back.

If you do happen to do a Transatlantic flight, You fly out for up to a 14 hour duty, and then stay one night away from your family/friends and fly back the following day through the night Irish Time.
You get home and your not worth a sh*t for 2 days because your body clock is all over the place.

There are many different aspects to this dispute. One of which is Aerlingus do not wish to grant a half hour meal break during a duty. A duty could last anything up to a 10 hour day. In what other job would someone not get a half hour break during a 9 hour day?

In saying that, there are plenty of people in Aerlingus that should be glad they have a job.

I'm neither siding with the Union or the Company, but people should know all the facts.

Correct me if Im wrong but do they not spend 3 nights when they are in the US in 4/5 star hotels before they fly back and then get another 2/3 days off after they come back ??

Beaucoupfish · 21-01-2011 01:15PM

OisinT wrote: »

This is one of the main reasons why I'm dreading a large Labour presence in any new government. This type of bullyboy tactics is wrong.

Vote FF

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 01:18PM

whycliff wrote: »

As Cabin Crew you check in an hour before a flight, and 2 hours before an Transatlantic flight.

Cabin Crew work unsocialble hours 7 days a week, bank holiday, easter, christmas all year round.

Its not all the glitz and glam that some people would make it out to be.

You fly to a destination, turn around and come back.

If you do happen to do a Transatlantic flight, You fly out for up to a 14 hour duty, and then stay one night away from your family/friends and fly back the following day through the night Irish Time.
You get home and your not worth a sh*t for 2 days because your body clock is all over the place.

Isn't this known to everybody BEFORE they start working as an air steward??

Plenty of people work long and anti social hours in other jobs

there is a huge culture problem at AER Lingus - between pilots on strike, cabin crew on strike, ground staff on strike. in the long run it would probably be better for the company if they made every staff member redunant - banned unions ala Ryanair - and started again

The company would be better and the customers better served

FlutterinBantam · 21-01-2011 01:19PM

will1977 wrote: »

Correct me if Im wrong but do they not spend 3 nights when they are in the US in 4/5 star hotels before they fly back and then get another 2/3 days off after they come back ??

Not strictly correct.

Typical Dub-JFK Monday arr JFK circa 1430.... return Tue about 1900 in at 0600.

Some destinations may not have a daily flight hence the three night scenario.

kevinmcc · 21-01-2011 01:21PM

I worked my ass of on an outsourced ground role at the airport whilst cabin crew have it handy. They have **** all to do. When it snows they stand there and say how they hope it's cancelled so they can stay in New York another day, and get extra allowance. They avoid having to deal with passengers roaring in your face when the flight is delayed or cancelled. I got 0 benefits, not much more than a minimum wage, unsociable hours yet I got on with it. They cry about not having a break, well I worked sometime from 5pm right through to 8am the next morning dealing with cancellations through the time of the ash..where were the crew? sitting in a hotel in new york getting extra daily allowances for nothing!

solerina · 21-01-2011 01:21PM

After having read all this..much of it not actually realted to the issue (just sniping at unions/the government/anyone at all)...I have yet to learn what exactly this dispute is about....surely there is more to it than an arguemant over a short lunch/coffee break.....has anyone got any real facts on this issue. If it is all over a short lunch break god help us !!

cornbb · 21-01-2011 01:22PM

whycliff wrote: »

Don't comment on something you know nothing about. The 850 hours is 850 hours flight time, not actual working hours. So its basically from the time the aircraft takes of until it lands and reaches its gate.

Having worked in Aerlingus in the past i know how it goes.

As Cabin Crew you check in an hour before a flight, and 2 hours before an Transatlantic flight.

Cabin Crew work unsocialble hours 7 days a week, bank holiday, easter, christmas all year round.

Its not all the glitz and glam that some people would make it out to be.

You fly to a destination, turn around and come back.

If you do happen to do a Transatlantic flight, You fly out for up to a 14 hour duty, and then stay one night away from your family/friends and fly back the following day through the night Irish Time.
You get home and your not worth a sh*t for 2 days because your body clock is all over the place.

There are many different aspects to this dispute. One of which is Aerlingus do not wish to grant a half hour meal break during a duty. A duty could last anything up to a 10 hour day. In what other job would someone not get a half hour break during a 9 hour day?

In saying that, there are plenty of people in Aerlingus that should be glad they have a job.

I'm neither siding with the Union or the Company, but people should know all the facts.

Its an intrinsic part of the career. Its not like this lifestyle was sprung upon cabin crew out of the blue... claiming that AL are discriminating is frankly ridiculous. Regularly flying across the Atlantic is inevitably going to be disruptive to family life, anyone with a head on their shoulders knows that.

I do think a 30 minute break would be in order, but if you get a couple of days off after your shift in lieu of that, then maybe its worth it.

I'm sure there are plenty of people in Aer Lingus who work hard, but I don't feel sorry for them in the slightest. All that I'm detecting out of this dispute is a sense of entitlement without the slightest understanding that when times are tough, you need to work your ass off for you and your company to get ahead.

mikemac · 21-01-2011 01:25PM

I'd love a neutral explanation on what this whole issue is about, it's getting complicated now by both sides issueing press releases. Surely it's more then a 30 minute break

And the aviation forum has posters taking sides between management and the workers.

I suspect the answer is somewhere in the middle, it's rare one side is completly right and the other side all wrong.

Some mess anyway and it's the passengers who suffer.
And in the long term the airline as passengers worry over flights so book with their competitors

outandabout · 21-01-2011 01:28PM

Here's a suggestion.

If the Labour Court issues a ruling which is binding and accepted by both sides, there should be a clause stating that if either side breaks the agreement they should be fined.

I'd make the fine substantial, say €100,000 euro, to help ensure that neither side made agreements they had no intention of keeping.

If a particular union or company breaks agreements on a frequent basis then a heavier penalty should be imposed.

kevinmcc · 21-01-2011 01:29PM

This is what I found on facebook from CC as to their strike reasons!

To all my friends , these are the real truths as to why the cabin crew in aer lingus need to stand up for their rights , could you take this lying down? Please support Aer lingus cabin crew ... all info below available on impact facebook page

All meal breaks removed from European flights. This means cabin crew can work shifts of up to 11 hours with no meal break. There was formerly an entitlement to a half-hour break after six hours duties.

Double shifts where staff must work on flights out and back from a destination twice in a day. (eg: Dublin-London-Dublin-London-Dublin. These ‘doubles’ can also include other destinations of similar distance, eg, Paris; Amsterdam; Hamburg. The doubles mean a working day of up to 11 hours – and more if there are delays for any reason.

Duties can be changed by 3 hours on the day of duty. Eg, you could come in to do a 7am flight to be told you are on a different flight departing up to three hours later – and can finish work three hours later than rostered. A nightmare if you have kids or other caring responsibilities.
Similarly, duties can be changed by up to four hours the day before the rostered shift.

The existing right to request one weekend off duty every eight weeks is abolished under the new rosters.

The minimum of 8 rostered days off per month is reduced to 7.

Cabin crew can be sent to work away from base for 26 days at a stretch. No such duty has yet been rostered, but there are big fears about how this would work in practice, particularly for those with childcare and other caring responsibilities.

The rest period on transatlantic flights has been halved from 24 to 12 hours. This means that staff can do the outward flight to, say, New York and then work the flight back to Ireland that evening.

drdeadlift · 21-01-2011 01:35PM

ei need to get there crap sorted or else all the profit saving measures taken so far are a complete waste.
I was going to go away with them next week,but once the cc kick of with more industrial action i decided against going.
If Aerlingus are willing to advertise low cost as ryanair do the company must function similar simple as.

Lord Trollington · 21-01-2011 01:44PM

will1977 wrote: »

Correct me if Im wrong but do they not spend 3 nights when they are in the US in 4/5 star hotels before they fly back and then get another 2/3 days off after they come back ??

You are wrong.

For the most part theY spend one night in the US in a hotel. New York, Boston, Chicago.
One might think this would be great, a night in those cities, but its not like that whatsoever.
Fly back the next day through the night Irish time and have 2 days off when you get home.
The 2 days you get off are the 2 days you are entitled to off that week, its not a perk that goes with flying to the USA.

There was a few years ago a flight to L.A where they spent up to 3 nights there, but these weren't daily flights.

ixoy · 21-01-2011 01:53PM

The thing is some of the wording there: the notice says only the maximum/minimuns. So staff may be asked for a 11hr shift with no break but is it actually likely? Are they only giving extreme scenarios?

Also: Why have so many cabin crew accepted it if it's such a horrendous deal?

And what is the ratio of EI staff per flight compared to Ryanair? As I recall it was much higher but, since they struggled to remove staff, they needed to make savings elsewhere in staff wages. That and other exhorbant costs (e.g. they didn't outsource in-flight meals like everyone else, driving up costs).

De Dannan · 21-01-2011 01:55PM

SIX PACK wrote: »

I was meant to fly with AerLingus today but flight is cancelled, Why the hell cant the Airline operate & replace the crew with emergency staff so the customers can get to & from their destination, Im so angry Knew i should of flew Ryanair

The staff were looked after so well for so long. they all need a dose of economic reality. If they want to strike, and I would say the same to public servent, dont pay them and get in replacements , they will soon see sense when they start not getting paid at all

mikemac · 21-01-2011 01:59PM

Impact won't strike, they aren't getting support from the other unions.
Very rare you hear of strikes these days, unions are not what they once were.

This is going to drag on with work to rule and obstruction on one side and issuing on the spot suspensions on the other

This company has always had a terrible industrial relations record, management and the unions are as bad as each other

jackiebaron · 21-01-2011 02:02PM

SIX PACK wrote: »

I was meant to fly with AerLingus today but flight is cancelled, Why the hell cant the Airline operate & replace the crew with emergency staff so the customers can get to & from their destination, Im so angry Knew i should of flew Ryanair

should have flown with

Aerlingus Cabin Crew want the best of both worlds

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