Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

Jim236 · 20-01-2011 09:05PM

delta720 wrote: »

Your talking about two different IRA's, also FF and FG didn't have the same links to the IRA as SF do.

To be fair the IRA of the 70s, 80s and early 90s was a very different IRA to one we saw take centre-stage from the late 90s.

There were plenty of people in 1916 who would've called Collins, Pearse, deValera etc terrorists, yet they're all now celebrated as national heroes. I'm not saying the IRA of the troubles should be seen in that light, but their cause was just as legitimate.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 20-01-2011 09:07PM

delta720 wrote: »

Your talking about two different IRA's, also FF and FG didn't have the same links to the IRA as SF do.

Both were violent IRAs that used terrorism as a tactic and both of whom's operations led to civilian death. And I mean the actual definition of terrorism there btw not the modern evil-doer version

OhNoYouDidn't · 20-01-2011 09:11PM

delta720 wrote: »

Your talking about two different IRA's, also FF and FG didn't have the same links to the IRA as SF do.

Thats just plain incorrect.

PenelopeT · 20-01-2011 09:15PM

southsiderosie wrote: »

That's interesting because my impression of SF is the exact opposite: even people who disagree strongly with their policies say they are very good with constituent services. SF is deeply rooted in grassroots organizing, and there is a strong Republican ethos of active citizenship. Personally, I have never had anything but positive interactions with them, both North and South.

However, in the South they have two key problems: they don't have a deep "bench" of potential candidates compared to the other parties (which negates their grassroots organizing skills), and despite their skill at a local level, the only national-level policy that they have real experience debating both internally and externally is the national question. If politics is about striking a balance between guns and butter, arguably 90% of SF's energy historically has focused on guns. However, the most pressing issue in the South is butter...or what little of it that hasn't melted away anyhow. And they are really going to have to get serious about economic issues in the North as well, especially given their reliance on a cash-strapped Whitehall.

Aye, well like I said, it's only a local opinion.I'm glad you had only postive dealings with them. Thats all I have to go on. I'll come back to you if Gerry Adams gets elected in my constituency!! :DDefinitely agree with your second paragraph.

PenelopeT · 20-01-2011 09:18PM

Also, we're Sinn Fein the party that used dead peoples names to vote for them? That REALLY pees me off.

Wolfe Tone · 20-01-2011 09:19PM

PenelopeT wrote: »

Also, we're Sinn Fein the party that used dead peoples names to vote for them? That REALLY pees me off.

What?

Monty Burnz · 20-01-2011 09:19PM

Jim236 wrote: »

There were plenty of people in 1916 who would've called Collins, Pearse, deValera etc terrorists, yet they're all now celebrated as national heroes. I'm not saying the IRA of the troubles should be seen in that light, but their cause was just as legitimate.

Hmm...the original war of independence was most of Ireland versus Britain (simplifying massively). Most of Ireland won independence. The bit of Ireland where most people didn't want independence (simplifying) didn't get it. The IRA of the '90s carried out a terrorist campaign for the minority in NI to overcome the will of the majority.

Not quite the same, in my opinion.

Monty Burnz · 20-01-2011 09:20PM

PenelopeT wrote: »

Also, we're Sinn Fein the party that used dead peoples names to vote for them? That REALLY pees me off.

Them and Fianna Failure. Hence the famous FF motto, 'vote early and often'.

EDIT: Lol, I googled 'Vote early and often' and Ireland and this came right up...

imme · 20-01-2011 09:25PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They already do lots of business with the UK, some would say too much.

do you think we should do less business with the UK.
what a crazy suggestion. :rolleyes:

OP said: "Especially now that there is a vacuum in Irish politics for a credible alternative to the main parties? If I'm honest I wouldn't be too up to speed with any SF policies, but is there reason to believe they may perform well in this election if people begin to look at them in a different light, as a political part with political policies?"

where's the vacuum OP? We already have small parties niche parties like SF, Green Party, People Before Profit, United Left Alliance.

OP, you ask about people discounting SF straight off, but you say you're not up to date with their policies, would that not be one of the main things a person should consider when deciding who to vote for?

Wolfe Tone · 20-01-2011 09:27PM

imme wrote: »

do you think we should do less business with the UK.
what a crazy suggestion. :rolleyes:

I see that went over your head.

PenelopeT · 20-01-2011 09:31PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

What?

Apologies, "weren't", not "we're". They used deceased peoples names, put them on the register and had them vote for Sinn Fein. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it was them?

wee truck big driver · 20-01-2011 09:31PM

KeithAFC wrote: »

Don't be silly. Only great victories. Tony Blair is a failure.

like the ira's victory over the brits in the north of ireland

Jim236 · 20-01-2011 09:35PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm...the original war of independence was most of Ireland versus Britain (simplifying massively). Most of Ireland won independence. The bit of Ireland where most people didn't want independence (simplifying) didn't get it.

No it wasn't, there was very little support for the easter rebellion or for independence. Only after the executions from the easter rising did the movement for independence begin to get widespread support.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The IRA of the '90s carried out a terrorist campaign for the minority in NI to overcome the will of the majority.

lol You're rewriting history now. When do you think the troubles began?

wee truck big driver · 20-01-2011 09:38PM

the answer to the question is that the media in ireland is owned by the british and also the other political parties have always discredited the ira and sinn fein because they were afraid of them getting too strong the same way as now ever political party is putting ther own interests ahead of the country,s

southsiderosie · 20-01-2011 09:47PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Them and Fianna Failure. Hence the famous FF motto, 'vote early and often'.

EDIT: Lol, I googled 'Vote early and often' and Ireland and this came right up...

"Vote Early, vote Often" actually was an old Chicago catchphrase; it came into use before Fianna Fail existed. And in New York in the late 19th century, "Repeaters" were common on election day. Irish political shenanigans were/are a trans-Atlantic phenomenon.

Chucky the tree · 20-01-2011 10:23PM

Here's a brief list

1. They skill have strong links to terrorist organisations, and don't give me this bull**** about FF and FG are aswell. That was 90 odds year's ago. When any other party has members of a terrorist organisation giving the a hand with putting up campaign posters I'll cross them off my voting list as well. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/four-years-for-ira-men-up-to-no-good-275376.html

2. TD Martin Ferris support for the killers of Garda McCabe. This for me is the clincher. It's been a long time since McCabe was killed so a lot of people might not remeber it, but here's a bit from Wiki about it

Two men wearing balaclavas jumped out of the Pajero, and fired fourteen rounds from an AK-47 at the detectives. Three rounds hit Jerry McCabe, killing him. His colleague, O'Sullivan was seriously injured.

How any SF supporter or voter can defend this I have no idea. Not just Ferris, but Gerry Adams and Sinn Feinn for even pushing for their release in the first place is disgusting in my opinion. The icing on the cake is having Ferris turn up at their release and shake their hands. SF supporters seriously expect the general public to vote this party into Government so they can give a man like Ferris a nice well paid job as Minister for Justice? Good luck. Not in my life time will I vote for this party while Ferris is in it or while they accept someone like him in it.

3. Various issues with dodgy expenses. While Pearse Doherty is doing a great job rabble rousing with his sound bites attacking other TD's and parties about expense claims, he'd come across a lot better if he took to checking up figures from his owner party first. Here's just a few issues he can look into and other SF supporters can look into while there up on their high horse claiming themselves to be so above board and unlike other political parties.

- Martin Ferris expenses in Kerry North for 2008. He claimed €78k in total and €50k in travel and subssitence. While Jimmy Deenihan(FG) whos in the same constituency claimed €65k in total and €40K in travel. Maybe Pearse can look into this for us while he's so eager to check out what everyone spends on travel.

- Aengus O'Snodaigh who lives in Bluebell and is a TD for Dublin South Central claimed €14k in 2008 for travel expenses, is Dublin bus really that expensive now? Catherine Byrne(FG) managed to get by with just €7k in travel expenses in the same constituency. For someone who's fighting for the poor and vulnerable in society like SF always claim I love how he has balls to claim for €14k on travel expenses for a Dublin constituency. :rolleyes:

- Gerry, Martin and the other boys and the pad in London. Claiming over £500,000 for expenses in London when they don't even take up their Parliamentary seats is pretty epic. I can under understand how one or two might needs to pop over every now and again, but no no, all 5 SF MP's have claimed this money. And this for me, was the icing on the cake...

Since MPs' second-home expenses figures were first published in 2004 for the period covering 2001/2, the five MPs have claimed £437,405 under the Additional Costs Allowance (ACA) system, which helps MPs to meet the cost of running a second home, and which was last year worth up to £24,000 per MP.

The five each claimed £21,000 of ACA in the last financial year, just short of the maximum permitted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/mps-expenses/5301510/MPs-expenses-Sinn-Fein-claimed-500000-for-second-homes.html

Lol, all 5 of the boys must be sick of all that traveling they do to London so often if all 5 can claim for nearly the maximum while none of them actually attend parliamentary meetings.

As for there policies, well take a look...
http://www.sinnfein.ie/the-issues
http://www.sinnfein.ie/campaign-statements

So, that's basically why I disregard Sinn Fein.

lugha · 20-01-2011 10:37PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

How any SF supporter or voter can defend this I have no idea. Not just Ferris, but the Gerry Adams and Sinn Feinn for even pushing for their release in the first place is disgusting in my opinion. The icing on the cake is having Ferris turn up at their release and shake their hands. SF supporters seriously expect the general public to vote this party into Government so we can give a man like Ferris a nice well paid job as Minister for Justice?

I know our republican friends will be miffed at this being brought up again but it's no trivial matter. It is absolutely unconscionable that an individual who sits in the national parliament of a state does not convey, by their words and actions, that they fully and unreservedly support the men and women who guard and protect that state. I’m inclined to think that many republican apologists genuinely don’t get this and just see it as just another stick to beat SF with.

Interesting that you mention the ministry of justice. Jim McDaid lost his job in that ministry for doing something very similar, though not nearly as bad, 20 years ago. And he offered the same “personal relationship” excuse as Ferris.
It tells you something about how inappropriate such behaviour is when it is deemed a sacking offence in Fianna Fail.

Jim236 · 20-01-2011 10:39PM

Chucky the tree wrote: »

1. They skill have strong links to terrorist organisations, and don't give me this bull**** about FF and FG are aswell. That was 90 odds year's ago. When any other party has members of a terrorist organisation giving the a hand with putting up campaign posters I'll cross them off my voting list as well.

What was so different about the troubles and the war of independence? Both were legitimate wars, fighting for legitimate causes. I don't understand how you can celebrate the IRB or the ICA as national heroes, but the IRA of the troubles as a bunch of "terrorists"?

Chucky the tree wrote: »

2. TD Martin Ferris support for the killers of Garda McCabe. This for me is the clincher. It's been a long time since McCabe was killed so a lot of people might not remeber it, but here's a bit from Wiki about it

How any SF supporter or voter can defend this I have no idea. Not just Ferris, but Gerry Adams and Sinn Feinn for even pushing for their release in the first place is disgusting in my opinion. The icing on the cake is having Ferris turn up at their release and shake their hands. SF supporters seriously expect the general public to vote this party into Government so they can give a man like Ferris a nice well paid job as Minister for Justice? Good luck. Not in my life time will I vote for this party while Ferris is in it or while they accept someone like him in it.

Well nobody in this topic has so far tried to defend the killing of Jerry McCabe, which can never be justified.

But I can understand why you'd resent the party for their stance on the killing, but I don't agree with generalising every SF politician and supporter as supporters of the killing, just because of the stance of senior party members. I don't think I'm alone in saying I'm a Sinn Féin supporter and I never supported or condoned the killing of Jerry McCabe.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

3. Various issues with dodgy expenses. While Pearse Doherty is doing a great job rabble rousing with his sound bites attacking other TD's and parties about expense claims, he'd come across a lot better if he took to checking up figures from his owner party first. Here's just a few issues he can look into and other SF supporters can look into while there up on their high horse claiming themselves to be so above board and unlike other political parties.

- Martin Ferris expenses in Kerry North for 2008. He claimed €78k in total and €50k in travel and subssitence. While Jimmy Deenihan(FG) whos in the same constituency claimed €65k in total and €40K in travel. Maybe Pearse can look into this for us while he's so eager to check out what everyone spends on travel.

- Aengus O'Snodaigh who lives in Bluebell and is a TD for Dublin South Central claimed €14k in 2008 for travel expenses, is Dublin bus really that expensive now? Catherine Byrne(FG) managed to get by with just €7k in travel expenses in the same constituency. For someone who's fighting for the poor and vulnerable in society like SF always claim I love how he has balls to claim for €14k on travel expenses for a Dublin constituency. :rolleyes:

Ah come off it. You're cherrypicking examples without even giving attendance rates for those TDs. We all know Fine Gael have one of the worst attendance rates of all the parties, so don't give me this bullsh*t about FG being a beacon of light that all TDs should aspire to.:rolleyes:

Chucky the tree wrote: »

- Gerry, Martin and the other boys and the pad in London. Claiming over £500,000 for expenses in London when they don't even take up their Parliamentary seats is pretty epic. I can under understand how one or two might needs to pop over every now and again, but no no, all 5 SF MP's have claimed this money. And this for me, was the icing on the cake...

No doubt some of those expensions should be looked into, but you're a bit simple if you think the party isn't entitled to claim anything just because they abstain from Westminster. When all those meetings were taking place in Downing St. between Sinn Féin and the British government leading up to the St. Andrews and Hillsborough Agreements, the SF representatives had to stay somewhere like. Then there was the countless meetings between the British government and the First Minister/Deputy First Minister about securing funding for the North over the next 10 years, not to mention the recent budget cuts.

Athlone_Bhoy · 20-01-2011 10:42PM

Gerry won't be claiming it anymore. He has stood down looks like he running for the seat in the republic. Things looking good for SF I'd imagine with him in the south they will pickup a lot of support.

wee truck big driver · 20-01-2011 10:46PM

it has to be said everything happens for a reason det jerry mc cabe wasnt shot for no reason

Jim236 · 20-01-2011 10:49PM

wee truck big driver wrote: »

it has to be said everything happens for a reason det jerry mc cabe wasnt shot for no reason

What valid reason can you give for him being killed?

And you're doing Republicanism nor Sinn Féin any favours when you come out with tripe like that...

Monty Burnz · 20-01-2011 11:09PM

wee truck big driver wrote: »

it has to be said everything happens for a reason det jerry mc cabe wasnt shot for no reason

I think the reason was that some murderers were robbing a bank and he was a policeman who was in their way.

Hope that helps.

Wolfe Tone · 20-01-2011 11:12PM

Jim236 wrote: »

What valid reason can you give for him being killed?

And you're doing Republicanism nor Sinn Féin any favours when you come out with tripe like that...

Wasnt there some history between McCabe and the volunteer who killed him?

Regardless it truly was reprehensible.

Monty Burnz · 20-01-2011 11:18PM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Regardless it truly was reprehensible.

How do you feel about those who campaigned for the early release of the murderers?

And about the fact that they weren't able to secure murder convictions for some mysterious *cough*witness intimidation*cough* reason so they literally got away with murder?

Chucky the tree · 20-01-2011 11:21PM

Jim236 wrote: »

What was so different about the troubles and the war of independence? Both were legitimate wars, fighting for legitimate causes. I don't understand how you can celebrate the IRB or the ICA as national heroes, but the IRA of the troubles as a bunch of "terrorists"?

The difference is no current member's of FF or FG have never been apart of a terrorist orgnaisation or strongly linked to it. Cowen has no control over how FF operated in the 1920's.

Well nobody in this topic has so far tried to defend the killing of Jerry McCabe, which can never be justified.

But I can understand why you'd resent the party for their stance on the killing, but I don't agree with generalising every SF politician and supporter as supporters of the killing, just because of the stance of senior party members. I don't think I'm alone in saying I'm a Sinn Féin supporter and I never supported or condoned the killing or Jerry McCabe.

Sinn Fein actively pushed for their release, Ferris turned up to shake here hand ffs. While not all supporters might take this view, the fact one of your TD's did and was never called up on it by anyone in his party speaks volumes. You support Sinn Fein, that means you support the stance of Senior party members. I can understand how a differing view on certain opinions, but when it comes to the killing of a Garda I don't understand how you disagree with Ferris' stance yet expect people to vote for him. It's a massive negative against Sinn Fein. Also, I presume you mean don't defend the killing but do condone it.

Ah come off it. You're cherrypicking examples without even giving attendance rates for those TDs. We all know Fine Gael have the worst attendance rate of all the parties, so don't give me this bullsh*t about FG being a beacon of light that all TDs should aspire to.:rolleyes:

Sorry. Both attended the Dail on 73 days, while Deenihan claimed for 90 days and Ferris for 97 days. Catherine Byrne attended for 73 days and claimed for 100, the exact same as Angus. So we have a €10k difference for 7 days, and even more unbelievable a €7k differnece when there is no difference is attendence. Seriously, Is Angus getting a limo to work everyday? I'd love to know what Pearse's attitude is to this.

The regulations provide for reconciliation for (1) ill health reasons, (2)
a member abroad in the performance of his/her duties as a member or office holder, or elsewhere in the state on behalf of a committee or (3) extraordinary circumstances which the appropriate authority determines are good and sufficient and could not have been foreseen. Administrative reconciliations are recorded based on specified evidence of attendance in Leinster House.

No doubt some of those expensions should be looked into, but you're a bit simple if you think the party isn't entitled to claim anything just because they abstain from Westminster. When all those meetings were taking place in Downing St. between Sinn Féin and the British government leading up to the St. Andrews and Hillsborough Agreements, the SF representatives had to stay somewhere like. Then there was the countless meetings between the British government and the First Minister/Deputy First Minister about securing funding for the North over the next 10 years, not to mention the recent budget cuts.

They've been paying rent for 12 months for the last 5 years or so. While yes they might need to go over every so often, I've no idea how they need to rent houses for 12 months when they never attend parliament.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 20-01-2011 11:24PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Hmm...the original war of independence was most of Ireland versus Britain (simplifying massively). Most of Ireland won independence. The bit of Ireland where most people didn't want independence (simplifying) didn't get it. The IRA of the '90s carried out a terrorist campaign for the minority in NI to overcome the will of the majority.

Not quite the same, in my opinion.

Sorry that's not simplifying massively it is just plain incorrect.

Monty Burnz · 20-01-2011 11:45PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Sorry that's not simplifying massively it is just plain incorrect.

Can you do better in 50 words?

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 12:15AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

How do you feel about those who campaigned for the early release of the murderers?

And about the fact that they weren't able to secure murder convictions for some mysterious *cough*witness intimidation*cough* reason so they literally got away with murder?

If they thought that they should have been released early under the GFA then thats up to them, justice is for everyone, no matter what they have done.

I don't thnk SF could be seen to be "leaving men behind" as it where, but it was deffo wrong.

21-01-2011 12:27AM

Jim236 wrote: »

What was so different about the troubles and the war of independence? Both were legitimate wars.

ah yeah real heroes knee capping teenagers and assassinating mothers and burying them in bogs.....nothing legitimate about blowing shoppers up in London, Belfast or anywhere else either.

And I`ll go one further and say the security forces who hunted those murderers did right

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 12:29AM

Deleted User wrote: »

ah yeah real heroes knee capping teenagers and assassinating mothers and burying them in bogs.....nothing legitimate about blowing shoppers up in London, Belfast or anywhere else either.

And I`ll go one further and say the security forces who hunted those murderers did right

No offense, but do we really need to get into a debate on the justification for armed conflict? This aint the thread for it methinks.

Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

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