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Labour's Penal Policy has cost them my vote..

  • 11-01-2011 5:09pm
    #1
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭


    Labour reveals penal policy plans: RTE.ie

    What are they thinking, the biggest problem in this country is that the Justice system is not punishing people, Criminals should go to jail and not to the hotels that the Irish prison service operates.
    This thing of asking judges to explain in writing why they sent people to jail is like asking a waitress why she put food on a customers table, its a judges job to punish these individuals.
    Our justice system needs a major overhaul and that includes real punishment of criminals otherwise there would be no deter ant to commit crime. This is why the country is in such a sorry state, there was no detterant and still is no detterant to stop these bankers destroying our economy...
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    I think you have missed the point slightly.

    Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

    Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

    Many are turned away from the prison, serving no time, but have a record that they were jailed. If a Judge has to explain, in writing, why Mary, aged 28, a widow with three young kids, got 3 months for non payment of her TV licence, they might stop bloody well doing it.

    Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.


  • #3
    Mr.Micro
    Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    I see nothing wrong in a Judge having to give reasons for a conviction......it is vital that transparency exists. Judges are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.


  • #4
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    I kind of want my cake and eat it.
    I'd love to see them bring in a system where yes, if you haven't paid a fine because you can't you aren't just chucked into prison with all of the other criminals.

    On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.


  • #5
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    I kind of want my cake and eat it.
    I'd love to see them bring in a system where yes, if you haven't paid a fine because you can't you aren't just chucked into prison with all of the other criminals.

    On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.


    Other criminals? Hmmm

    And why is there no room or budget for the latter? Because of the former.


  • #6
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    mayotom wrote: »
    Criminals should go to jail and not to the hotels that the Irish prison service operates.

    What a ridiculous thing to suggest. I suggest you read the reports of the Inspector of Prisons and those of his predecessor, or better, visit some of the prisons yourself.

    I don't agree that sending young prisoners to St Patrick's (which is really two prisons by the way) is a violation of human rights. I do think, however, that the shameful waste in failing to engage with these kids, provide them with workshops or reasonable levels of education or reform is a violation visited upon this society and upon those young men themselves.


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  • #7
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I think you have missed the point slightly.

    Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

    Yes there are different grades of criminals, however if you break the law you are a criminal, but in my opinion these people who have not paid fines should be doing community service or something similar and not taking up space in the prisons which should be full of the violent criminals who plague this Country along with the white collar criminals who inflict just as much pain as armed robbers

    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

    Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.

    I hear more cases of the drunk driver who shows no remorse for the deaths and injuries they have caused who are let off due to stupid technicalities, the irish justice system needs to be completely revamped.

    I would have no problems with the re introduction of corporal punishment and chain gangs, prison can not be seen as the easy way out of serious criminals.
    the lady who has not paid her TV licence should be well capable of clearing the masses of rubbish from the streets of this country.
    later10 wrote: »
    What a ridiculous thing to suggest. I suggest you read the reports of the Inspector of Prisons and those of his predecessor, or better, visit some of the prisons yourself.

    I have never been in an active Irish prison, but was in Castlerea several times during construction work, the facilities going into that prison were far better than was going to to hotels at the time, I have visited prisons when I lived abroad as part of a research project, I can tell you that things are very different, In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there. We have all seen these scumbags in Limerick on the TV saying that they want to go to prison because they are so well taken care of. If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.


  • #8
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »

    On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.

    48 convictions, well obviously the justice system is not working, how often do we here of people with multiple convictions murdering in this country.

    NOW IS THE TIME FOR CHANGE... SOMETHING RADICAL HAS GOT TO BE DONE


  • #9
    irishh_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    mayotom wrote: »
    Yes there are different grades of criminals, however if you break the law you are a criminal, but in my opinion these people who have not paid fines should be doing community service or something similar and not taking up space in the prisons which should be full of the violent criminals who plague this Country along with the white collar criminals who inflict just as much pain as armed robbers




    I hear more cases of the drunk driver who shows no remorse for the deaths and injuries they have caused who are let off due to stupid technicalities, the irish justice system needs to be completely revamped.

    I would have no problems with the re introduction of corporal punishment and chain gangs, prison can not be seen as the easy way out of serious criminals.
    the lady who has not paid her TV licence should be well capable of clearing the masses of rubbish from the streets of this country.



    I have never been in an active Irish prison, but was in Castlerea several times during construction work, the facilities going into that prison were far better than was going to to hotels at the time, I have visited prisons when I lived abroad as part of a research project, I can tell you that things are very different, In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there. We have all seen these scumbags in Limerick on the TV saying that they want to go to prison because they are so well taken care of. If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.


    damn , had i known that , i would have not paid a 3000 euro fine and instead chose to spend a month ( or perhaps a week ) in castlerea some years back

    i recieved a conviction ( albeit its now struck out ) for assaulting an intruder on my property a number of years ago , ( my barrister was a freshman and got stage fright so the hearing was a farce , i think the judge didnt fully understand the fact that i was acting in self defense , other guy had a really good council and got cleared off assaulting me , we were both summonsed for assaulting each other prior to court hearing ) ironically the judge who convicted me , was in the news a year later for having said he would blow the head of anyone who tresspassed onto his property

    i tell you , some of theese judges are drunk on thier own power most of the time and simply revel in sending all in sundry to the gulags regardless of the offense committed


  • #10
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    In the report, there is a proposal to build smaller, more localised prisons. However, there was no costing associated with this. In the US penal system, the trend has been towards larger "warehousing" style prisons. From a rehabilation stance, these are non-runners but they are cheaper to store prisoners than the smaller prisons, producing savings on the budget (paraphrasing here from Prof. Jonathan Simon, Berkeley).


  • #11
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I think you have missed the point slightly.

    Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

    Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

    Many are turned away from the prison, serving no time, but have a record that they were jailed. If a Judge has to explain, in writing, why Mary, aged 28, a widow with three young kids, got 3 months for non payment of her TV licence, they might stop bloody well doing it.

    Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.

    Sorry.

    Just to clarify, imprisonment for failure/refusal to pay fines/licences etc arises out of repeated failure to pay them. In fact, the defaulter is usually the subject of a court order before they are imprisoned.

    Your emotive ramblings about "Mary" are not reflected in fact. Thus, it will still be the case that repeated defaulters will be dealt with, and sound justification will be offered.


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  • #12
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    irishh_bob wrote: »

    i recieved a conviction ( albeit its now struck out ) for assaulting an intruder on my property a number of years ago , ( my barrister was a freshman and got stage fright so the hearing was a farce , i think the judge didnt fully understand the fact that i was acting in self defense , other guy had a really good council and got cleared off assaulting me , we were both summonsed for assaulting each other prior to court hearing ) ironically the judge who convicted me , was in the news a year later for having said he would blow the head of anyone who tresspassed onto his property

    i tell you , some of theese judges are drunk on thier own power most of the time and simply revel in sending all in sundry to the gulags regardless of the offense committed

    there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary


  • #13
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    mayotom wrote: »
    there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary
    I think one has to be careful when dismissing the Irish judiciary in such terms, generally it is the more unreasonable members whose comments or judgements tend to stick out, but one shouldn't really suggest they are reflective of the overall body. One particularly stupid comment that always sticks in my head was District Court Judge Mary Collins's claim that she had rarely seen peaceful begging. It tends to be things like that which promote the idea that there is a serious lack of common sense in the judiciary, but one ought to remember that common sense often doesn't get reported so enthusiastically as lack thereof.


  • #14
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mayotom wrote: »

    I have never been in an active Irish prison,........

    Then on what basis do you talk about "the hotels that the Irish prison service operates."?


  • #15
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Nodin wrote: »
    Then on what basis do you talk about "the hotels that the Irish prison service operates."?

    MayoTom is Wrong. Just plain wrong.

    The amount of misconceptions on this thread is incredible. We even have been given the staple American "Lawyer ****ed Me" approach.


  • #16
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    mayotom wrote: »
    In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there.
    Sounds like Mountjoy to me. And recidivism is a huge problem in Mountjoy.
    If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.
    I happen to know that Judge Dermot Kinlen, the previous inspector of Prisons, did exactly that. He unequivocally recommended, effectively, more Castlereas than Mountjoys. Genuinely, I suggest you read his reports.


  • #17
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    I think you have missed the point slightly.

    Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

    Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.
    Aren't most of these small fines levied because of crimes? So the criminal in question has the choice of paying the fine or doing prison time, and a lot of them prefer to do the time. That should tell you something.


  • #18
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    mayotom wrote: »
    there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary

    And here you are giving out about a policy to make them more accountable...


  • #19
    Fitzerb
    Registered Users Posts: 619 ✭✭✭Fitzerb


    Mr.Micro wrote: »
    I see nothing wrong in a Judge having to give reasons for a conviction......it is vital that transparency exists. Judges are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.


    Should the prison then have to write up a report as to why they are releasing the prisioner.
    We are paying enough to paper puhed around the place.

    If the Judge is not performing then let Pat" rock the foundation of the state" Rabbitte go through the process of sacking the Judge.
    This is the normal Labour crap. I want the job and Merc but not the responsibility of making a decision.


  • #20
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Sorry.

    Just to clarify, imprisonment for failure/refusal to pay fines/licences etc arises out of repeated failure to pay them. In fact, the defaulter is usually the subject of a court order before they are imprisoned.

    Your emotive ramblings about "Mary" are not reflected in fact. Thus, it will still be the case that repeated defaulters will be dealt with, and sound justification will be offered.

    A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud a few years back. I don't recall the fine details, but I recall it happening. There was even a follow up on how fellow inmates didn't give him a hard time because they knew he wasn't in, lets say, the same kind of fraternity, that being a criminal.

    I believe keeping some form of tabs on judges is a good idea. They are a law onto themselves, they should have no more free reign than any public servant. For example on a small scale, TV licence fines can go a few hundred more one way or the other depended on the judge and his or her mood.

    *Just like to welcome all the new FFail supporters with nothing to say and no points to make. It's made up of forums for Irish people to chat, but FFail separatists are welcome too ;)
    Sorry to interrupt, you where saying Labour have no policies, FG would do the same, we are all to blame and so on...


  • #21
    sligopark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,620 ✭✭✭sligopark


    unfortunately we have too many liberal do gooders here ... perhaps they should be asked to lodge them in their homes as part of their parole conditions, this might give a lesson in reality.


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  • #22
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud a few years back. I don't recall the fine details, but I recall it happening. There was even a follow up on how fellow inmates didn't give him a hard time because they knew he wasn't in, lets say, the same kind of fraternity, that being a criminal.

    I believe keeping some form of tabs on judges is a good idea. They are a law onto themselves, they should have no more free reign than any public servant. For example on a small scale, TV licence fines can go a few hundred more one way or the other depended on the judge and his or her mood.

    *Just like to welcome all the new FFail supporters with nothing to say and no points to make. It's made up of forums for Irish people to chat, but FFail separatists are welcome too ;)
    Sorry to interrupt, you where saying Labour have no policies, FG would do the same, we are all to blame and so on...

    In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.


  • #23
    OhNoYouDidn't
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭OhNoYouDidn't


    Het-Field wrote: »
    In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.

    But its still daft to be putting anyone whose original transgression is not criminal in jail full stop. Playing drums 'inappropriately' is not a reason to incarcerate anyone. Ditto debtors or people who pay too small a bus fare.

    If a judge had to write down his reasons for sticking the drummer in the Joy knowing it would be re-printable in the media and open him to ridicule, he might not take such a preposterous approach to sentencing.


  • #24
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »
    But its still daft to be putting anyone whose original transgression is not criminal in jail full stop. Playing drums 'inappropriately' is not a reason to incarcerate anyone. Ditto debtors or people who pay too small a bus fare.

    If a judge had to write down his reasons for sticking the drummer in the Joy knowing it would be re-printable in the media and open him to ridicule, he might not take such a preposterous approach to sentencing.

    Again, Judges will not jail people for failing to pay the requsite bus-fare. They will only jail repeated/willing defaulters. That is a fact. As I have said, the failure to pay will often by subject to a court order. Failure to comply, can result in attachment.

    Playing drums is not an offence. Disobeying a court order/injunction is an offence, which is punishable with jail-time. As I have said, the likely-hood that he was jailed for playing his drums too loud on a once off occasions is negligible.


  • #25
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Labour says that many inmates, women in particular, should not be in jail, but on diversion programmes, and more should be held in open prisons.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0111/labour.html

    :eek:

    nutjobs, dont they remember the scissors sisters or Catherine Nevin???


  • #26
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud
    This is the kind of thing that grows legs. Without knowing any facts at all*, I would presume he was FINED for playing the drums (in some anti-social manner - say in the middle of the night beside some old folks). If he refused to pay this fine, he would have been jailed for the crime of contempt of court.

    Refusal to pay fines is what gets you sent to jail in the case of all these petty civil matters.

    *I can't really Google it with no info, Shea


  • #27
    GarlicBread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭GarlicBread


    We are going to be reading more Ryan Reports if there isnt hasty reform of the justice system. Same sad story all over again, only ourselves to blame.

    I feel unsafe living in a country knowing that this can happen to me if i didnt pay my tv license.

    Why the fcuk would anyone want to pay a tv license anyway, most people only watch vincent browne and RTE are to blame as much as anyone else for the extreme mismanagement that has taken place in this country over the decades. Some great watchdog we have.

    Spare a thought for all those 'non payment of fines' people who tonite are sleeping next to murderers and buckets of ****. Im sure they feel very patriotic knowing that their suffering ensures the viability of the RTE's aristocratic coke addiction.


  • #28
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Het-Field wrote: »
    In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.

    By fine detail I mean I don't know how long he was locked up. As I recall a neighbour complained, but I would expect there was more to it. I would add that my point is, as regards the thread, we don't always see fair and equal justice. Could the guy not have had some fine imposed, public service, or civil order placed regarding playing his drums? If you steal a car, assault someone, defraud the state, it is not automatic that you'll see the inside of a cell. I see no harm in questioning the judiciary.

    On a side note, do judges still have a state funded manservant, who cuts the grass makes his/her tea?


  • #29
    Shea O'Meara
    Closed Accounts Posts: 960 ✭✭✭Shea O'Meara


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    This is the kind of thing that grows legs. Without knowing any facts at all*, I would presume he was FINED for playing the drums (in some anti-social manner - say in the middle of the night beside some old folks). If he refused to pay this fine, he would have been jailed for the crime of contempt of court.

    Refusal to pay fines is what gets you sent to jail in the case of all these petty civil matters.

    *I can't really Google it with no info, Shea

    He was in the joy, for playing drums. That's all I recall from reading about it in the papers and discussing it with friends. Any road up, questioning judges is fine with me.

    *Anyhoo, can't find it, but found this:
    'My prison nightmare after being locked up over €12.70 dog licence'
    http://www.herald.ie/national-news/my-prison-nightmare-after-being-locked-up-over-euro1270-dog-licence-1968600.html
    Didn't get the fine in the post, An Post admitted they hadn't been delivering..


  • #30
    Rodin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,130 ✭✭✭Rodin


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Does TV not report on the scumbags from other areas or what?

    3) repeated violent assault, rape and/or murder should incur the death penalty

    Heard of the Guilford four?
    Birmingham six?


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  • #31
    Liam Byrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Rodin wrote: »
    Heard of the Guilford four?
    Birmingham six?

    Read the post ? hint : repeated

    Heard of DNA testing?


  • #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0111/labour.html

    :eek:

    nutjobs, dont they remember the scissors sisters or Catherine Nevin???


    Please, less of the sensationalism. It'd be pretty obvious women would go to prison, just less of them for missing payments etc.


  • #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The use of the word "Scumbag" is expressly forbidden in this forum. The use of the English language can be a beautiful one, so let's try something other than "Scumbag"


  • #34
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    GarlicBread wrote: »
    We are going to be reading more Ryan Reports if there isnt hasty reform of the justice system. Same sad story all over again, only ourselves to blame.

    I feel unsafe living in a country knowing that this can happen to me if i didnt pay my tv license.

    Why the fcuk would anyone want to pay a tv license anyway, most people only watch vincent browne and RTE are to blame as much as anyone else for the extreme mismanagement that has taken place in this country over the decades. Some great watchdog we have.

    Spare a thought for all those 'non payment of fines' people who tonite are sleeping next to murderers and buckets of ****. Im sure they feel very patriotic knowing that their suffering ensures the viability of the RTE's aristocratic coke addiction.

    You dont live in a Country where you could be jailed for non-payment of your TV Licence. You may be jailed for breaching a mandatory order of the court to pay your licence, after repeated and inexplicable failure to pay.


  • #35
    Het-Field
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,350 ✭✭✭Het-Field


    Shea O'Meara wrote: »
    By fine detail I mean I don't know how long he was locked up. As I recall a neighbour complained, but I would expect there was more to it. I would add that my point is, as regards the thread, we don't always see fair and equal justice. Could the guy not have had some fine imposed, public service, or civil order placed regarding playing his drums? If you steal a car, assault someone, defraud the state, it is not automatic that you'll see the inside of a cell. I see no harm in questioning the judiciary.

    On a side note, do judges still have a state funded manservant, who cuts the grass makes his/her tea?

    It is likely that an injunction had been granted in favour of those who were subjected to the drums. Again, jail will only be given to those who willingly disregard rulings of court, or who transgress the law on a crimnal basis.


  • #36
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Het-Field wrote: »
    Again, jail will only be given to those who willingly disregard rulings of court, or who transgress the law on a crimnal basis.

    Not something that I noticed when I did an assignment on District Court sentencing practice.

    Most people who were convicted of very minor crimes barely got a chance to utter a word - although of course they did get to utter one word but there was nothing to suggest that blatant disregard or an ability to pay came into it.

    The new Fines Act 2010 specifically notes that a persons ability to pay a fine must now be taken into consideration. It also amended the Community Service Act 1983 so that community service orders be given as an alternative. It is also introduced a mechanism that allows fine to be paid by installments - this did not happen in the Criminal Justice System and therefore if you couldn't pay the full amount within 72hrs, you were imprisoned.

    Prison should only be used for very serious offence and countries that operate a less punitive and more humane system of sanctions particulary in the area of non violent crimes have less recidivism and much better outcomes than Ireland.

    Mayotom What are they thinking, the biggest problem in this country is that the Justice system is not punishing people, Criminals should go to jail and not to the hotels that the Irish prison service operates.
    This thing of asking judges to explain in writing why they sent people to jail is like asking a waitress why she put food on a customers table, its a judges job to punish these individuals.
    Our justice system needs a major overhaul and that includes real punishment of criminals otherwise there would be no deter ant to commit crime. This is why the country is in such a sorry state, there was no detterant and still is no detterant to stop these bankers destroying our economy..


    Mayotom studies on sentencing practice suggest that you couldn't be more wrong in your analysis of what this country needs regarding sentencing practice and imprisonment although I totally understand why you would come to the conclusion you have
    Crime rates or evidence-based analysis of sentencing practices rather than political consideration should determine prison sentences - the last thing we need as a country is the media and propagenda determining of sentencing practices never the less thats what happens here. That is also why people think we need harsher sentencing but what we actually need is the opposite if we do really want crime rate to drop.
    In countries such as the Baltic countries where more restorative sentencing systems and more humane senctening practices operate, crime rates and specifically recidivism rates are much lower than in countries like Ireland - the media does not dictate prison policy in these countries.

    Another point to be noted is that countries such as Sweden and Norway have a proper functioning welfare state and this has done a great deal in bringing about social cohesion. Prof Thomas Mathiesen is considered to be one the main experts in prison reform and he states that countries with proper function welfare states, makes it difficult to create "social distance", so that each person feels connected to everyone else and therefore no one gets scapegoated for the troubles that occur. So, too, Mathiesen believes that the low prison numbers reflect a "moderate social system" in Norway, and that the only real danger is "excess" and the growing divide between those who have and those who have not.

    Before you decide to take your vote from Labour be sure you are doing it for the right reasons. This is a link to Labours proposed policy and people should read it so they can judge for themselves as to whether or not the proposals make sense - I have to say when I read it I was surprised at how enlightened Pat Rabbitte appears to be
    http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/129475738510468192.html

    By the way I am not sure who I am going to vote for yet but I would be more inclined to consider a vote for Labour now - I will have to take a closer look at their manifesto.


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  • #37
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Where to they plan on putting children who don't engage with the JLO or probation service?


  • #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Papa Smut wrote: »
    Please, less of the sensationalism. It'd be pretty obvious women would go to prison, just less of them for missing payments etc.

    come off of it!
    Its sexist to single out women any differently from men

    I call shennannigans


  • #39
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    I think that in the short to medium term we need more prisons, not less. And those prisons should be of a more modern design.

    And I think that prison should not be EITHER a deterrent or a rehabilitive function. It should be a mixture of both.

    For serious crimes, solitary cell for 24 hours a day minus 1 hour exercise and minus an hour or 2 of work/skills development.


  • #40
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    If he refused to pay this fine, he would have been jailed for the crime of contempt of court.
    Or if he just didn't bother to show up for his day in court. You see a lot of that happening with mortgage repossessions, people hand the keys back and don't bother to keep up with the paperwork, next thing you know they've a custodial sentence.

    I'm not in favour of harsher prisons, I think the emphasis should be on rehabilitiation and dealing with the root causes of criminality. I've seen tropical prisons that would turn your hair white, twenty men stuffed into a small cage with barely enough room to lay down, concrete shelves for cells without enough space to sit up and no air conditioning in that humid heat - it didn't seem to have much of a deterrent effect overall. I seem to recall some good progress being made with the CONNECT programme, whatever happened to that?
    According to O'Donoghue, "The main result from the first stage of the CONNECT Project was the creation of a process which could clearly benefit prisoners in their preparation for employment after release. There also were some interesting facts and figures: 174 prisoners, both men and women, participated in the first stage (as of Nov. 1, 2000); of those, 76 have been released. Of the 76 who were released: 26 percent started jobs immediately, 7 percent had further training, 5 percent received residential drug treatment and 58 percent lost contact with the (prison) service. Most remarkably, of the 76 who were released, only 4 percent have been returned to prison. This needs to be set against a national pattern of 70 percent recidivism in the (Irish) prison system."


  • #41
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    The reform situation does indeed need to be addressed.

    I would also have no problem with Judges giving written reasons for custodial sentences.
    But
    I would also ensure that the do them same when the fail to impose a custodial sentence, for: Violent crime, Abuse & drug offenses.


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  • #42
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Labour often get accused of being poppulist but this thankfully is the opposite. Instead of a jail all the crims attitutde it is reasoned and responsible policy


  • #43
    Laminations
    Registered Users Posts: 4,693 ✭✭✭Laminations


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    The reform situation does indeed need to be addressed.

    I would also have no problem with Judges giving written reasons for custodial sentences.
    But
    I would also ensure that the do them same when the fail to impose a custodial sentence, for: Violent crime, Abuse & drug offenses.


    I agree. Sending people to prison who dont necessarily deserve it needs some explanation, but I also want/need to understnd the more lenient sentences handed down for the more violent crimes. 5 years for arming yourself with a knife and stabbing someone to death is not explicable using the mitigating factors mentioned. This is just the most recent example of leniency. Prison needs to act as deterrent, constraint and rehabilitation. If a doctor signed you off as having a clean bill of health and you keeled over with cancer 2 weeks later they'd be done for malpractice. If a judge deems a 6 month sentence is adequate rehabilitation and the person upon release commits yet another crime, the judge loses no sleep.


  • #44
    usernamegoes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 901 ✭✭✭usernamegoes


    I do think that we do need to be jailing more people and for longer terms in this country, but the right people need to be jailed.

    I am in favor of a system for more and longer jail time for multiple violent offenders. PErhaps not as far as a three-strikes-and-your-out for violent crimes, but close enough and with discretion.

    There is no reason why those disgusting people that beat-up and rob others can do so because they know that IF they are caught they will have little happen to them.


  • #45
    later12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0111/labour.html

    :eek:

    nutjobs, dont they remember the scissors sisters or Catherine Nevin???
    I agree that it is bizarre to single out women, but nobody is suggesting that the likes of those you mention ought not to be behind bars.


  • #46
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    spank_inferno wrote: »
    The reform situation does indeed need to be addressed.

    I would also have no problem with Judges giving written reasons for custodial sentences.
    But
    I would also ensure that the do them same when the fail to impose a custodial sentence, for: Violent crime, Abuse & drug offenses.

    I do agree with this statement, when I started this thread it was the serious criminals who came to mind. When somebody is convicted rape, murder, assault, repeat offences the Judge shouldn't have to file a report to explain why they are gone to jail, because in my opinion it should be Mandatory that they go to jail.
    Equally so the judge who sends somebody to jail for minor crimes, should be accountable, but not to the level where they would be reluctant to send people to jail. Like I said before this is common sense.
    It has been stated above that Jail time is not always the best solution for violent crimes, maybe its not, but it will without doubt save the people of this country from the pain that countless other victims have suffered.

    On a separate point, I lived in the UAE for a couple of years, this is a country which is virtually crime free, I never felt unsafe there, I would walk in any area of any city in the country among people in disadvantaged areas, I could leave my wallet on the seat of my car with the windows open for hours with out worrying about it. Nobody there is willing to go to prison, they know its an unplesant place to do time, and more importantly they know that if found guilty of even the smallest of crimes they will be punished, there is no such thing as Suspended sentences (another joke in our justice system). The death penalty is available to judges but is only used in the most extream cases which are rare. While I don't agree with many aspects of their system, The Irish judiciary could learn a lot from them.


  • #47
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Before you decide to take your vote from Labour be sure you are doing it for the right reasons. This is a link to Labours proposed policy and people should read it so they can judge for themselves as to whether or not the proposals make sense - I have to say when I read it I was surprised at how enlightened Pat Rabbitte appears to be
    http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/129475738510468192.html

    By the way I am not sure who I am going to vote for yet but I would be more inclined to consider a vote for Labour now - I will have to take a closer look at their manifesto.

    Very Valid point on reading what they have on their website, it does make a lot more sense and they may possibly get my vote depending on their other policies. however I would like to see some serious change to the judicial system, maybe along the lines of taking some of the sentencing authority away from judges, and bring in stricter sentencing rules for the judiciary to follow, then when they don't follow the guidelines then explain themselves. e.g. Murder = Life in Prison simple as that, no rubbish about tough background, no suspended sentences, no parole. You stab somebody = Attempted murder = 10 years. etc etc etc

    Re Scandinavia and the Baltic's I have spent time throughout these areas albeit no more than a month at a time and what I have noticed there is that the attitude of the people goes a long way to reducing crime, its hard to explain but there is a friendliness in those countries which we used to have here in Ireland before the boom, crime is by no means non existent but from the outside it seems to be pretty low, maybe this is related to their social services, but most likely due to a strong judicial system, where if you do the crime you do the time and there is no ambiguity about the punishment.


  • #48
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    mayotom wrote: »
    Very Valid point on reading what they have on their website, it does make a lot more sense and they may possibly get my vote depending on their other policies. however I would like to see some serious change to the judicial system, maybe along the lines of taking some of the sentencing authority away from judges, and bring in stricter sentencing rules for the judiciary to follow, then when they don't follow the guidelines then explain themselves. e.g. Murder = Life in Prison simple as that, no rubbish about tough background, no suspended sentences, no parole. You stab somebody = Attempted murder = 10 years. etc etc etc

    Re Scandinavia and the Baltic's I have spent time throughout these areas albeit no more than a month at a time and what I have noticed there is that the attitude of the people goes a long way to reducing crime, its hard to explain but there is a friendliness in those countries which we used to have here in Ireland before the boom, crime is by no means non existent but from the outside it seems to be pretty low, maybe this is related to their social services, but most likely due to a strong judicial system, where if you do the crime you do the time and there is no ambiguity about the punishment.

    Definitely agree with the guidelines for judges as there doesn't appear to be any consistency in sentencing here.

    I read of a new initiative that was being tried in some part of Norway.
    A guy in Norway [I think] who had been convicted of attempted burglary- he had also been drinking - no violence involved I should add. The guy was employed and the judge sentenced him to weekend imprisonment for 1 year - he could only leave his house during the week when he was on his way to work, while at work and coming directly home from work- I can't remember if the guy was actually tagged
    He also had to attend a civic or social responsibilty and a conselling class once a week to learn to understand the consequences of his actions on himself, his community and society as a whole, I think the conselling classes address issues the offender may have. And finally a certain amount was deducted from his wage to repay the family he burgled for damage done and donate money to the the community for the cost of his imprisonment.

    I thought this was the most brillant way of deterring people from crime - getting them to understand the consequences of their crime . They also had to bear the financial cost of what they had done, which is excellent I think for victims as well as offenders.

    We need some radical changes in our whole attitude towards punishing offenders and rehabilitating them - the media focus needs to stop as it is completely unhelpful too.

    Its also worth noting that at increase in people being sent to jail directly correlated with the closing down of psychiatric hospitals in Ireland, why issues like this do not get proper media attention is hard to fathom.
    Maybe its not emotive enough or prehaps we would have to look at how with actually treat people with mental health problems.


  • #49
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mayotom wrote: »
    I do agree with (......)could learn a lot from them.

    I believe I asked you a question back here.......
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70013216&postcount=14


  • #50
    mayotom
    Registered Users Posts: 742 ✭✭✭mayotom


    Nodin wrote: »
    I believe I asked you a question back here.......
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70013216&postcount=14

    well if you care to have read the post that I made re the facilities that are provided within the prison you will have noted that these are facilities that I would not consider to be something that should be provided to criminals, people who have been convicted of not living by the rules of society but are still afforded the comforts of modern society albeit behind closed doors..

    as discussed here here on Prime time Investigates last month,(I can't find the video, but will put it here when I do) there was a local self confessed unrepentant criminal who openly stated that he enjoyed been in prison where the taxpayer would pay for his food and accommodation, this is the problem here, the prisons are too easy and these people prefer to be on the inside than on the outside.

    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Definitely agree with the guidelines for judges as there doesn't appear to be any consistency in sentencing here.

    I read of a new initiative that was being tried in some part of Norway.
    A guy in Norway [I think] who had been convicted of attempted burglary- he had also been drinking - no violence involved I should add. The guy was employed and the judge sentenced him to weekend imprisonment for 1 year - he could only leave his house during the week when he was on his way to work, while at work and coming directly home from work- I can't remember if the guy was actually tagged

    These are the things that really need to be looked at, how about instead of the weekend in prison put them to work on 12 hour shifts cleaning up this mess, hail, rain, sleet or Snow. Forget the dogooders going on about human rights, if this was the law if they choose to ignore he law then the human rights laws should ignore them. If this sort of detterant was there then maybe these areas wouldnt become so dilapidated.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bohaDYA9lg



  • #51
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    mayotom wrote: »
    well if you care to have read the post that I made re the facilities that are provided within the prison you will have noted that these are facilities that I would not consider to be something that should be provided to criminals, people who have been convicted of not living by the rules of society but are still afforded the comforts of modern society albeit behind closed doors..

    as discussed here here on Prime time Investigates last month,(I can't find the video, but will put it here when I do) there was a local self confessed unrepentant criminal who openly stated that he enjoyed been in prison where the taxpayer would pay for his food and accomadation, this is the problem here, the prisons are too easy and these people prefer to be on the inside than on the outside.

    Halden Prison is Norways newest prison and compared to Irish Prisons and even some Irish Hotels it is definitely luxurious - I expect alot of Irish peole would be horrified by it. But you have to remember their governments thinking is based on dealing with the actual problems these people have, while making them aware that their behaviour is unacceptable in a civilised society.
    The ethos of humanity and kindness is really pushed for example it is felt that Halden's greatest asset, may be the strong relationship between staff and inmates. Prison guards don't carry guns — that creates unnecessary intimidation and social distance — and they routinely eat meals and play sports with the inmates. "Many of the prisoners come from bad homes, so we wanted to create a sense of family," says architect Per Hojgaard Nielsen. Half the guards are women — Hoidal believes this decreases aggression — and prisoners receive questionnaires asking how their experience in prison can be improved.

    Norways recidivism rate is 20% - Irelands is 80%


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