Labour's Penal Policy has cost them my vote..

mayotom

Labour reveals penal policy plans: RTE.ie

What are they thinking, the biggest problem in this country is that the Justice system is not punishing people, Criminals should go to jail and not to the hotels that the Irish prison service operates.
This thing of asking judges to explain in writing why they sent people to jail is like asking a waitress why she put food on a customers table, its a judges job to punish these individuals.
Our justice system needs a major overhaul and that includes real punishment of criminals otherwise there would be no deter ant to commit crime. This is why the country is in such a sorry state, there was no detterant and still is no detterant to stop these bankers destroying our economy...

OhNoYouDidn't

I think you have missed the point slightly.

Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

Many are turned away from the prison, serving no time, but have a record that they were jailed. If a Judge has to explain, in writing, why Mary, aged 28, a widow with three young kids, got 3 months for non payment of her TV licence, they might stop bloody well doing it.

Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.

Mr.Micro

I see nothing wrong in a Judge having to give reasons for a conviction......it is vital that transparency exists. Judges are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Dr. Baltar

I kind of want my cake and eat it.
I'd love to see them bring in a system where yes, if you haven't paid a fine because you can't you aren't just chucked into prison with all of the other criminals.

On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.

OhNoYouDidn't

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

I kind of want my cake and eat it.
I'd love to see them bring in a system where yes, if you haven't paid a fine because you can't you aren't just chucked into prison with all of the other criminals.

On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.

Other criminals? Hmmm

And why is there no room or budget for the latter? Because of the former.

later12

mayotom wrote: »

Criminals should go to jail and not to the hotels that the Irish prison service operates.

What a ridiculous thing to suggest. I suggest you read the reports of the Inspector of Prisons and those of his predecessor, or better, visit some of the prisons yourself.

I don't agree that sending young prisoners to St Patrick's (which is really two prisons by the way) is a violation of human rights. I do think, however, that the shameful waste in failing to engage with these kids, provide them with workshops or reasonable levels of education or reform is a violation visited upon this society and upon those young men themselves.

mayotom

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think you have missed the point slightly.

Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

Yes there are different grades of criminals, however if you break the law you are a criminal, but in my opinion these people who have not paid fines should be doing community service or something similar and not taking up space in the prisons which should be full of the violent criminals who plague this Country along with the white collar criminals who inflict just as much pain as armed robbers

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.

I hear more cases of the drunk driver who shows no remorse for the deaths and injuries they have caused who are let off due to stupid technicalities, the irish justice system needs to be completely revamped.

I would have no problems with the re introduction of corporal punishment and chain gangs, prison can not be seen as the easy way out of serious criminals.
the lady who has not paid her TV licence should be well capable of clearing the masses of rubbish from the streets of this country.

later10 wrote: »

What a ridiculous thing to suggest. I suggest you read the reports of the Inspector of Prisons and those of his predecessor, or better, visit some of the prisons yourself.

I have never been in an active Irish prison, but was in Castlerea several times during construction work, the facilities going into that prison were far better than was going to to hotels at the time, I have visited prisons when I lived abroad as part of a research project, I can tell you that things are very different, In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there. We have all seen these scumbags in Limerick on the TV saying that they want to go to prison because they are so well taken care of. If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.

mayotom

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

On the other hand however, these "people" with 48 convictions. Some for assault and just pure thuggery should be locked up until we're sure it's not going to happen again.

48 convictions, well obviously the justice system is not working, how often do we here of people with multiple convictions murdering in this country.

NOW IS THE TIME FOR CHANGE... SOMETHING RADICAL HAS GOT TO BE DONE

irishh_bob

mayotom wrote: »

Yes there are different grades of criminals, however if you break the law you are a criminal, but in my opinion these people who have not paid fines should be doing community service or something similar and not taking up space in the prisons which should be full of the violent criminals who plague this Country along with the white collar criminals who inflict just as much pain as armed robbers




I hear more cases of the drunk driver who shows no remorse for the deaths and injuries they have caused who are let off due to stupid technicalities, the irish justice system needs to be completely revamped.

I would have no problems with the re introduction of corporal punishment and chain gangs, prison can not be seen as the easy way out of serious criminals.
the lady who has not paid her TV licence should be well capable of clearing the masses of rubbish from the streets of this country.



I have never been in an active Irish prison, but was in Castlerea several times during construction work, the facilities going into that prison were far better than was going to to hotels at the time, I have visited prisons when I lived abroad as part of a research project, I can tell you that things are very different, In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there. We have all seen these scumbags in Limerick on the TV saying that they want to go to prison because they are so well taken care of. If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.

damn , had i known that , i would have not paid a 3000 euro fine and instead chose to spend a month ( or perhaps a week ) in castlerea some years back

i recieved a conviction ( albeit its now struck out ) for assaulting an intruder on my property a number of years ago , ( my barrister was a freshman and got stage fright so the hearing was a farce , i think the judge didnt fully understand the fact that i was acting in self defense , other guy had a really good council and got cleared off assaulting me , we were both summonsed for assaulting each other prior to court hearing ) ironically the judge who convicted me , was in the news a year later for having said he would blow the head of anyone who tresspassed onto his property

i tell you , some of theese judges are drunk on thier own power most of the time and simply revel in sending all in sundry to the gulags regardless of the offense committed

Manach

In the report, there is a proposal to build smaller, more localised prisons. However, there was no costing associated with this. In the US penal system, the trend has been towards larger "warehousing" style prisons. From a rehabilation stance, these are non-runners but they are cheaper to store prisoners than the smaller prisons, producing savings on the budget (paraphrasing here from Prof. Jonathan Simon, Berkeley).

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think you have missed the point slightly.

Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

Many are turned away from the prison, serving no time, but have a record that they were jailed. If a Judge has to explain, in writing, why Mary, aged 28, a widow with three young kids, got 3 months for non payment of her TV licence, they might stop bloody well doing it.

Stories consistantly emerge like the Judge who jailed EVERYONE who was convicted of drink driving in his court and stated he would let the appeal court sort out valid sentencing.

Sorry.

Just to clarify, imprisonment for failure/refusal to pay fines/licences etc arises out of repeated failure to pay them. In fact, the defaulter is usually the subject of a court order before they are imprisoned.

Your emotive ramblings about "Mary" are not reflected in fact. Thus, it will still be the case that repeated defaulters will be dealt with, and sound justification will be offered.

mayotom

irishh_bob wrote: »

i recieved a conviction ( albeit its now struck out ) for assaulting an intruder on my property a number of years ago , ( my barrister was a freshman and got stage fright so the hearing was a farce , i think the judge didnt fully understand the fact that i was acting in self defense , other guy had a really good council and got cleared off assaulting me , we were both summonsed for assaulting each other prior to court hearing ) ironically the judge who convicted me , was in the news a year later for having said he would blow the head of anyone who tresspassed onto his property

i tell you , some of theese judges are drunk on thier own power most of the time and simply revel in sending all in sundry to the gulags regardless of the offense committed

there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary

later12

mayotom wrote: »

there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary

I think one has to be careful when dismissing the Irish judiciary in such terms, generally it is the more unreasonable members whose comments or judgements tend to stick out, but one shouldn't really suggest they are reflective of the overall body. One particularly stupid comment that always sticks in my head was District Court Judge Mary Collins's claim that she had rarely seen peaceful begging. It tends to be things like that which promote the idea that there is a serious lack of common sense in the judiciary, but one ought to remember that common sense often doesn't get reported so enthusiastically as lack thereof.

Nodin

mayotom wrote: »

I have never been in an active Irish prison,........

Then on what basis do you talk about "the hotels that the Irish prison service operates."?

Het-Field

Nodin wrote: »

Then on what basis do you talk about "the hotels that the Irish prison service operates."?

MayoTom is Wrong. Just plain wrong.

The amount of misconceptions on this thread is incredible. We even have been given the staple American "Lawyer ****ed Me" approach.

later12

mayotom wrote: »

In one particular Spanish Prison there up to 8 people to a cell, bed pans and certainly no TV's, Radio, internet, phones etc. Once these people have done their hard time they do not want to go back there.

Sounds like Mountjoy to me. And recidivism is a huge problem in Mountjoy.

If the Inspector of prisons can produce reports that irish prisons are anything but luxurious then they need to look for some junket money to go and check out some real prisons abroad.

I happen to know that Judge Dermot Kinlen, the previous inspector of Prisons, did exactly that. He unequivocally recommended, effectively, more Castlereas than Mountjoys. Genuinely, I suggest you read his reports.

Monty Burnz

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I think you have missed the point slightly.

Its obvious why a convicted murderer is going to jail, thats a one liner.

Reality is the majority of people sent to prison in this country is due to non payment of small fines. In other words, not criminals and taking up space.

Aren't most of these small fines levied because of crimes? So the criminal in question has the choice of paying the fine or doing prison time, and a lot of them prefer to do the time. That should tell you something.

OhNoYouDidn't

mayotom wrote: »

there is a serious lack of common sense in the Irish judiciary

And here you are giving out about a policy to make them more accountable...

Fitzerb

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I see nothing wrong in a Judge having to give reasons for a conviction......it is vital that transparency exists. Judges are not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Should the prison then have to write up a report as to why they are releasing the prisioner.
We are paying enough to paper puhed around the place.

If the Judge is not performing then let Pat" rock the foundation of the state" Rabbitte go through the process of sacking the Judge.
This is the normal Labour crap. I want the job and Merc but not the responsibility of making a decision.

Shea O'Meara

Het-Field wrote: »

Sorry.

Just to clarify, imprisonment for failure/refusal to pay fines/licences etc arises out of repeated failure to pay them. In fact, the defaulter is usually the subject of a court order before they are imprisoned.

Your emotive ramblings about "Mary" are not reflected in fact. Thus, it will still be the case that repeated defaulters will be dealt with, and sound justification will be offered.

A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud a few years back. I don't recall the fine details, but I recall it happening. There was even a follow up on how fellow inmates didn't give him a hard time because they knew he wasn't in, lets say, the same kind of fraternity, that being a criminal.

I believe keeping some form of tabs on judges is a good idea. They are a law onto themselves, they should have no more free reign than any public servant. For example on a small scale, TV licence fines can go a few hundred more one way or the other depended on the judge and his or her mood.

*Just like to welcome all the new FFail supporters with nothing to say and no points to make. It's made up of forums for Irish people to chat, but FFail separatists are welcome too
Sorry to interrupt, you where saying Labour have no policies, FG would do the same, we are all to blame and so on...

sligopark

unfortunately we have too many liberal do gooders here ... perhaps they should be asked to lodge them in their homes as part of their parole conditions, this might give a lesson in reality.

Het-Field

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud a few years back. I don't recall the fine details, but I recall it happening. There was even a follow up on how fellow inmates didn't give him a hard time because they knew he wasn't in, lets say, the same kind of fraternity, that being a criminal.

I believe keeping some form of tabs on judges is a good idea. They are a law onto themselves, they should have no more free reign than any public servant. For example on a small scale, TV licence fines can go a few hundred more one way or the other depended on the judge and his or her mood.

*Just like to welcome all the new FFail supporters with nothing to say and no points to make. It's made up of forums for Irish people to chat, but FFail separatists are welcome too
Sorry to interrupt, you where saying Labour have no policies, FG would do the same, we are all to blame and so on...

In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.

But its still daft to be putting anyone whose original transgression is not criminal in jail full stop. Playing drums 'inappropriately' is not a reason to incarcerate anyone. Ditto debtors or people who pay too small a bus fare.

If a judge had to write down his reasons for sticking the drummer in the Joy knowing it would be re-printable in the media and open him to ridicule, he might not take such a preposterous approach to sentencing.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

But its still daft to be putting anyone whose original transgression is not criminal in jail full stop. Playing drums 'inappropriately' is not a reason to incarcerate anyone. Ditto debtors or people who pay too small a bus fare.

If a judge had to write down his reasons for sticking the drummer in the Joy knowing it would be re-printable in the media and open him to ridicule, he might not take such a preposterous approach to sentencing.

Again, Judges will not jail people for failing to pay the requsite bus-fare. They will only jail repeated/willing defaulters. That is a fact. As I have said, the failure to pay will often by subject to a court order. Failure to comply, can result in attachment.

Playing drums is not an offence. Disobeying a court order/injunction is an offence, which is punishable with jail-time. As I have said, the likely-hood that he was jailed for playing his drums too loud on a once off occasions is negligible.

Labour says that many inmates, women in particular, should not be in jail, but on diversion programmes, and more should be held in open prisons.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0111/labour.html

:eek:

nutjobs, dont they remember the scissors sisters or Catherine Nevin???

Monty Burnz

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

A young man got jail time for playing his drums too loud

This is the kind of thing that grows legs. Without knowing any facts at all*, I would presume he was FINED for playing the drums (in some anti-social manner - say in the middle of the night beside some old folks). If he refused to pay this fine, he would have been jailed for the crime of contempt of court.

Refusal to pay fines is what gets you sent to jail in the case of all these petty civil matters.

*I can't really Google it with no info, Shea

GarlicBread

We are going to be reading more Ryan Reports if there isnt hasty reform of the justice system. Same sad story all over again, only ourselves to blame.

I feel unsafe living in a country knowing that this can happen to me if i didnt pay my tv license.

Why the fcuk would anyone want to pay a tv license anyway, most people only watch vincent browne and RTE are to blame as much as anyone else for the extreme mismanagement that has taken place in this country over the decades. Some great watchdog we have.

Spare a thought for all those 'non payment of fines' people who tonite are sleeping next to murderers and buckets of ****. Im sure they feel very patriotic knowing that their suffering ensures the viability of the RTE's aristocratic coke addiction.

Shea O'Meara

Het-Field wrote: »

In the context of the criminal law, fine detail is of grave importance. Without attention to detail, the committal of the requsite elements of an offence, the principle of isonomy will never prevail. It is beyond doubt that there was something more to his drum-playing then an unfortunate trespass into a criminally hight decibel level. Without doubt, his playing was motivated by malice, or at least an injunction restraining him from playing his drums inappropriatly had been granted.

By fine detail I mean I don't know how long he was locked up. As I recall a neighbour complained, but I would expect there was more to it. I would add that my point is, as regards the thread, we don't always see fair and equal justice. Could the guy not have had some fine imposed, public service, or civil order placed regarding playing his drums? If you steal a car, assault someone, defraud the state, it is not automatic that you'll see the inside of a cell. I see no harm in questioning the judiciary.

On a side note, do judges still have a state funded manservant, who cuts the grass makes his/her tea?

Shea O'Meara

Monty Burnz wrote: »

This is the kind of thing that grows legs. Without knowing any facts at all*, I would presume he was FINED for playing the drums (in some anti-social manner - say in the middle of the night beside some old folks). If he refused to pay this fine, he would have been jailed for the crime of contempt of court.

Refusal to pay fines is what gets you sent to jail in the case of all these petty civil matters.

*I can't really Google it with no info, Shea

He was in the joy, for playing drums. That's all I recall from reading about it in the papers and discussing it with friends. Any road up, questioning judges is fine with me.

*Anyhoo, can't find it, but found this:

'My prison nightmare after being locked up over €12.70 dog licence'
http://www.herald.ie/national-news/my-prison-nightmare-after-being-locked-up-over-euro1270-dog-licence-1968600.html

Didn't get the fine in the post, An Post admitted they hadn't been delivering..

Rodin

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Does TV not report on the scumbags from other areas or what?

3) repeated violent assault, rape and/or murder should incur the death penalty

Heard of the Guilford four?
Birmingham six?

Liam Byrne

Rodin wrote: »

Heard of the Guilford four?
Birmingham six?

Read the post ? hint : repeated

Heard of DNA testing?