So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

Procasinator · 06-01-2011 12:00PM

desaparecidos wrote: »

:rolleyes:

If you look into the Lotus stack, you will see that often either Java or JavaScript can be used within the environment. So it's very possible that they are looking for someone that has either language (and are worth the same value). There is no implication they are the same language.

Of course, you probably assumed JavaScript and Java domains never intercept. :rolleyes:

mbiking123 · 06-01-2011 12:06PM

I'm not the hiring manager. Pay depends on skills & contract type. But I'd guess at least 35k per year, plus a variable bonus each March & other perks/discounts etc.

Not bad for the job, especially in these times.

yes, good salary with so many people unemployed. To be honest I dont know anyone (with experience) who would give up their job to work for that salary. It is not high enough to attract someone out of a job. I think possibly that is what you actually want.

You could employ a recent grad for less and spend some money training them in specifically on what you require

In any case only my opinion, I dont know what you really want-just an opinion

RoisinDove · 06-01-2011 12:30PM

maninasia wrote: »

You are wrong mate, the exact same situation exists in Chinese for example. Within the Chinese 'language' there are numerous dialects, all of which are quite different to each other. So on a resume you would need to state very clearly if you are fluent in Mandarin, Cantonese, Taiwanese, Shanghainese, Hakka etc.

The candidate erred by not understanding Irish people's lack of knowledge regarding Spanish, but if the actual manager he/she was supposed to work with checked his cover letter there would have been no problem whatsoever.

Finally should a HR person bin a letter if they think the applicant is 'pretentious' or not? Is that the one of the main criteria they should judge something on?

Except it's not the same at all. In most countries, espanol and castellano are synonymous, and in any case, writing that you speak 'espanol' does nothing at all to tell the person which 'type' of Spanish you have. Whether it's Mexican or Argentinian or Cuban. Writing espanol is exactly the same as writing Spanish. The HR person would see that the guy was Mexican from his CV. I agree that writing espanol comes off as pretentious, and it is also completely redundant. Writing 'Mexican Spanish' would have been much more sensible, if he insisted on making the distinction (which is also silly, IMO, who ever specifies that they speak 'Irish English' on a CV?). BTW I am half Latin American so I know what I'm talking about.

prinz · 06-01-2011 12:38PM

maninasia wrote: »

The candidate erred by not understanding Irish people's lack of knowledge regarding Spanish, but if the actual manager he/she was supposed to work with checked his cover letter there would have been no problem whatsoever.

The candidate erred by not expressing himself properly through English, the language the application was to be submitted in. You cater your application to your audience, not the other way around. It was a mistake to assume the one reading your application would be aware of the difference. Lesson learned.

06-01-2011 12:38PM

maninasia wrote: »

You are wrong mate, the exact same situation exists in Chinese for example. Within the Chinese 'language' there are numerous dialects, all of which are quite different to each other. So on a resume you would need to state very clearly if you are fluent in Mandarin, Cantonese, Taiwanese, Shanghainese, Hakka etc.

You wouldn't write it in chinese/chinese lettering on the English cover letter though would you?

Degsy · 06-01-2011 01:15PM

desaparecidos wrote: »

Well that goes without saying. People on the dole are on the dole for a reason.

Pigeon-holed skill set and/or are lazy feckers.

There is no more "pigeon-holed skill set" than IT..lazy bastards never want to actually work and there are thousands of them sitting on teh dole waiting for jobs to be handed to them on a plate.

ntlbell · 06-01-2011 02:28PM

Degsy wrote: »

There is no more "pigeon-holed skill set" than IT..lazy bastards never want to actually work and there are thousands of them sitting on teh dole waiting for jobs to be handed to them on a plate.

abosoloute farcical nonsense.

The vast majority of people on the dole are from the construction sector and related industries.

Not getting 70k a year now for mixing cement so they'll milk the tax payer :rolleyes:

CrazyRabbit · 06-01-2011 05:59PM

boblong wrote: »

CrazyRabbit does your company invest any time in students by offering internships (to CS students etc.)?

hinthintnodnod

Not that I'm aware of.....well, in this particular area.

roryc · 06-01-2011 07:29PM

stimpson wrote: »

Are you an English major?

Are you American?

stimpson · 06-01-2011 08:30PM

roryc wrote: »

Are you American?

Are you xenophobic?

Lux23 · 06-01-2011 08:54PM

I think the problem is with Computer Science degrees, I know loads of people that spend 4 years in college learning loads of random **** but they all complain that the practical application of what they learned isn't fully covered. But then I also know people who did certs here and there while working and they seem to be able to pick up better jobs.

mbiking123 · 06-01-2011 11:29PM

I think the problem is with Computer Science degrees, I know loads of people that spend 4 years in college learning loads of random **** but they all complain that the practical application of what they learned isn't fully covered. But then I also know people who did certs here and there while working and they seem to be able to pick up better jobs.

Its because they have work experience. For me a degree is just a box to tick when looking for a job. A degree has 3 advantages (my own opinion)

-proves you can study
-proves you have learnt about a certain area (for example networking you may have CCNA from college etc)
-snob effect, 'I am a Harvard graduate' etc etc. Suppose UCD or Trinity may also have snob effect but not to same level

Problem with Universities is licencing, alot of the stuff you would like to learn costs too much on licencing. Even a simple web design subject with say Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Illustrator, Fireworks, Flash and on and on ...................... Just too expensive

Copper23 · 07-01-2011 12:18AM

Lux23 wrote: »

I think the problem is with Computer Science degrees, I know loads of people that spend 4 years in college learning loads of random **** but they all complain that the practical application of what they learned isn't fully covered. But then I also know people who did certs here and there while working and they seem to be able to pick up better jobs.

I wouldn't agree.

As I've said over and over in this thread.
Some people seem to get a CS degree being thaught mainly Java, for example, then someone tells them they can have the job if they can do it in C++ and they freak out.

If you have a CS degree it makes bugger all difference what the language of choice was during your tution. If you reached a high enough degree of learning you'd understand not the language but the pincipals of computing behind it. Languages are only different semantics on the same principals. Any decent CS student could pick up a new language in a few days and be flying, thats my opinion.

But as I said,you have too many people freaking out because they think learning a new programming language is a lot more than changing a few semantics and understanding the core principals of that language and how it could be different to the one(s) they know. It is basic stuff for a CS student. Yet you hear them freak at the very thought of a different language and have a look of shock on their face when presented with some PERL script or something. I don't know how they get the degrees in the first place if that is the level of their understanding of the topics they learned.

maninasia · 07-01-2011 03:22AM

bluewolf wrote: »

You wouldn't write it in chinese/chinese lettering on the English cover letter though would you?

Well to be honest if you don't know what 'espanol' is and see that the candidate had submitted a cover letter in two different languages, one that looks like Spanish which is what you are supposed to be looking for, you should't be involved in hiring people, but there are a lot of dense people out there.
So what if it looks pretentious...they can put flowers and birds on their resume, whatever, the point is if they have the right background and are fluent in Spanish and English. Irish business culture is too rigid and often focuses on the wrong things.

sandmanporto · 07-01-2011 03:57AM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

I think ireland was more reliant on education rather than raw talent or skill. Irish people are either skill admirers or education admires. Ultimately, a mixture of both is the most admirble in a candidate! Or in ireland, your best mates son! Who ya knw!

franklyon · 07-01-2011 04:04AM

Hey Dory,
What job is that, I speak fluent French and have an honours degree, but working in France as no jobs over here.

07-01-2011 07:36AM

maninasia wrote: »

Well to be honest if you don't know what 'espanol' is and see that the candidate had submitted a cover letter in two different languages, one that looks like Spanish which is what you are supposed to be looking for, you should't be involved in hiring people, but there are a lot of dense people out there.
So what if it looks pretentious...they can put flowers and birds on their resume, whatever, the point is if they have the right background and are fluent in Spanish and English. Irish business culture is too rigid and often focuses on the wrong things.

They may well have been advertising for a Spanish speaker, but that doesn't mean all staff and departments should know Spanish. Perhaps they were offering roles in a variety of languages, who knows? Perhaps the person dealing with it wasn't Irish and had other foreign languages? Although I highly doubt the person was unable to look it up in a dictionary. It's just bad form to write in any language other than English in an English cover letter. It looks stupid. I work in a huge multilingual organisation where dozens of languages are spoken and it's still understood that if the application form is in English, you write in English. If it's in French, you write in French. Doing otherwise is a sure way to get your application binned. Of course it matters if you have flowers and birds on your resume. It shows a lack of common sense and appropriate business etiquette. It shows signs of a person thinking they're too good for a 'normal' CV. Fine if it's for a creative industry, but most desk jobs are just looking for people to fit in and do the job. I'm not saying that most HR people aren't morons, but sometimes some of the blame lies with the candidate as well.

And BTW, writing 'español' so people wouldn't think you spoke 'castellano' is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard in my life. They are the same thing to 99% of people and anyway, español is the usual translation of 'Spanish'. Specifying that you speak Latin American or Mexican Spanish could be appropriate if you're worried about someone expecting European Spanish.

maninasia · 07-01-2011 07:40AM

Yes the candidate should have anticipated that. There is another factor in hand in that some companies use automated software to search through CVs and applications, so you need keywords. But I doubt that was the case here.

In reality it shouldn't matter what colour your CV/resume is but as I said business culture is artificially rigid in Ireland and in many multinationals...that will change overtime. You take the fact that somebody uses something individual as 'too good', but actually that could mean this person has more to bring to the role or it simply means nothing at all, after all the content should be king. Some people would bin the CV without interviewing the person. See what I'm saying. Too rigid like the 1950s (maybe that's why I don't like working for multinationals as try to force round people into square holes:)). Some countries and cultures suffer from this...anything different is considered pretentious or strange (the nail that sticks out gets beat down), anyway that's a topic for another day.

maninasia · 07-01-2011 07:50AM

mbiking123 wrote: »

yes, good salary with so many people unemployed. To be honest I dont know anyone (with experience) who would give up their job to work for that salary. It is not high enough to attract someone out of a job. I think possibly that is what you actually want.

You could employ a recent grad for less and spend some money training them in specifically on what you require

In any case only my opinion, I dont know what you really want-just an opinion

You have hit the nail on the head here. The employer needs to think first, can I get the person I want for the salary I am offering. Am I not better off training somebody instead?
Some employers falsely think they can pick up the right people at a fairly cheap price in a weak job market but the fact is that it differs greatly among sectors and people with the right experience and education.

Nolanger · 07-01-2011 08:37PM

sandmanporto wrote: »

I think ireland was more reliant on education rather than raw talent or skill.

Those who can - emigrate, those who can't - teach!

thebman · 01-07-2011 12:44PM

Copper23 wrote: »

I see a problem on both candidate and employers side.

Potential Employees:
- If out of work realise it is a great time to re-train, in computing, if you already have an existing degree, find out what the industry is using and self learn it.
- Stop thinking a degree is enough!
- I know people who have got a degree 2,3,4,5,10(!) years ago and think this alone gets the the job without even brushing up on what they learned (10!) years ago before and interview.
- I know people who don't realize a degree alone is not enough, technology changes, it is your duty to keep up, not your right to have a job.
- I also know one good friend who realized their Sciences degree alone was not enough, they have gone on to specialize in a certain area where they are crying out for people however so by the summer he will be qualified and able. Had he not done the extra 12 months of learning, his degree wasn't much help but he realized this.

Employers:
- Realize your skillset is diverse and in the OP's case these languages do not compliment each other usually, it is more "by chance" someone experienced both than it is the norm.
- Realize your best bet is to hire someone with the highest experience/closest skillset and train the rest.
- Yeah it's a hit but a little investment in the new employee could pay off long term and a top java programmer should pick up a new language at the drop of a hat.

I've done self-training, it isn't recognised. You have to do a course or people assume your lying in an interview even if you can produce a program, they will just assume you downloaded it somewhere and are trying to bluff it or will consider it not production environment experience so not good enough despite having production environment experience elsewhere.

syklops wrote: »

That is the problem. HR people who dont have a clue when it comes to IT. Thats why companies cant hire. I wonder how many CVs get binned by idiots HR people because they have C++ and C# on their CVs but the Job Spec says "Experience with Object-Oriented programming".

This is the job seekers job. To match the CV to the job description so the HR people don't have to know anything. Handiest job on earth I swear but since they expect to have a handy job, don't expect them to be amazed by a lack of effort made to an adapt a CV so they don't have to learn anything.

If a HR person says you don't have ECDL then they should be fired and you should be glad you didn't get the job in a company that values ECDL so highly for its IT workers.

I think most of these jobs are tech support with languages because I've been keeping an eye on job seeking sites and most of the jobs are in that area. It is just high turn over or people moving around in many cases. Not really that many programming jobs (not being advertised by recruitment agencies who are generally lying about jobs existing and CV hoarding).

Also students are finished their exams so are applying so what they are saying in a lot of cases is that the candidate has no experience whatsoever and they don't want to train them and their college work placement doesn't count as experience no matter what they did on it.

7sr2z3fely84g5 · 01-07-2011 01:01PM

i think its down to salary in some cases,i heard of one employer who wanted college educated I.T person on a community employment scheme so could pay next to nothing.

bnt · 01-07-2011 03:18PM

I agree with the views of other posters: employers are just too picky, and could hire an employee who doesn't tick every single box. Decisions like this should not be in the hands of HR people who don't know the difference between Java and JavaScript. :rolleyes:

Using the OP's example: what if you hired someone who had Java and JavaScript experience, but not LotusScript ... and paid them a lower salary while they learned LotusScript? Two seconds on Wikipedia will tell you that LotusScript is very similar to Visual Basic, so skill in that can be leveraged. That has to be a better solution than letting the position sit empty for months, right?

(Or, if I wanted to be naughty: I did quite a bit of VB years ago, and I bet I could read up on LotusScript quickly enough to fool an interviewer! :cool: )

thebman · 01-07-2011 05:00PM

bnt wrote: »

I agree with the views of other posters: employers are just too picky, and could hire an employee who doesn't tick every single box. Decisions like this should not be in the hands of HR people who don't know the difference between Java and JavaScript. :rolleyes:

Using the OP's example: what if you hired someone who had Java and JavaScript experience, but not LotusScript ... and paid them a lower salary while they learned LotusScript? Two seconds on Wikipedia will tell you that LotusScript is very similar to Visual Basic, so skill in that can be leveraged. That has to be a better solution than letting the position sit empty for months, right?

(Or, if I wanted to be naughty: I did quite a bit of VB years ago, and I bet I could read up on LotusScript quickly enough to fool an interviewer! :cool: )

I did Lotusscript on my student placement. It is basically just VB, that was my first thought when I saw it and I just wrote it as if I was writing in VB to start and don't remember any real syntax differences. Biggest problem was having to read the API for object names and function calls.

Other than that, it was basically the same as VB.

strangel00p · 01-07-2011 05:25PM

thebman wrote: »

I did Lotusscript on my student placement. It is basically just VB, that was my first thought when I saw it and I just wrote it as if I was writing in VB to start and don't remember any real syntax differences. Biggest problem was having to read the API for object names and function calls.

Other than that, it was basically the same as VB.

It's been a good few years since I worked on Lotus Notes. Lotusscript may be very similar to VB but that does not mean you are competent to develop a notes application. There is a LOT of experience required on notes development before you can start designing good applications.

If a job advertisement is looking specifically for lotusscript then to me this would imply someone who has a notes development background.

As far as I know there are two fairly big companies in Dublin who specialize in notes development and their main customer would be probably be the government where notes is used extensively.

gracehopper · 01-07-2011 05:42PM

Programming is Programming and a good programmer will be able to apply his/her skillset to any language, web or application based.. A couple of months training and they will be away in a hack.

RainbowRose81 · 01-07-2011 07:31PM

I think it's the Irish educational system. It's not fully functioning. Education is a lot more than getting a good job when your an adult. Education is should be about socialisation and development of the mind for a person to reach their potential.

The problem is that most children in primary school are not taugh how to think fully and use their minds to develope their imagination, creativity etc. then they go in to secondary school and its all about retaining information to do well in junior and leaving cert to get enought points for what course they want to do. In many universities here , they put the cart before the horse and start the practical side of things before they start the theory. They often don't see things in perspective of the world and reality and how the way how things are going.

In relation to skills,I think in most jobs, its a combination of knowledge, skills and experience to have a good chance of getting a job, its not alone having the skills. Some people have more skills in more areas than others. Some people have innate skills e.g leadership. Some people have to learn skills but its about having the knowledge required, some of the skills and some experience to be able to get an okay job starting off in your area of work.

starlit · 01-07-2011 07:41PM

maninasia wrote: »

Yes the candidate should have anticipated that. There is another factor in hand in that some companies use automated software to search through CVs and applications, so you need keywords. But I doubt that was the case here.

You serious? I didn't know that!? Had an idea some of the big companies might do that but search on a database sort of thing with those that had required keywords etc but didn't know that companies might use automated software to search CV's and applications.

What is wrong with training someone up especially for a role, its difficult enough to get someone with specific skills/experience why can't employers reason that out I suppose they go with the cheaper option. They rather pay a high salary for someone who ticks all the boxes rather than giving someone the job who hasn't enough skills/experience for the role whose paid a lower salary and has to be trained up might cost more for the employer? Who benefits more for the employer/company/employee? I suppose it alls boils down to what is most cost effective and will bring profits to the company.

Nolanger · 01-07-2011 08:06PM

How difficult is for an IT graduate to buy a book on Lotus Notes development and learn it themselves? We've too many people who need to be trained. No wonder they can't get jobs.

Celly Smunt · 01-07-2011 08:10PM

all you have to do is watch the apprentice,see who's "trained" and find out why we're all fcuked.

So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

Comments