So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

CrazyRabbit

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

biko

Skilled.

prinz

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

Behind some, ahead of others. Depending on the area of work etc. Tbh I can't think of anyone I have come across in any sort of business transaction/service industry who could be said to be more skilled than what I have experienced abroad. Depends on what you mean by 'skilled' though.

ronkmonster

Would it not be faster to grab a candidate with some of the skills you need (java) and train them up than having to grab someone from dole with (potentially) no programming experience and fully train them.

jester77

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Lotusscript

Found your problem

PeakOutput

according to a few people i know who run it departments there are 80K unfilled it jobs in this country. it is the one area we are grossly lacking and one of the main areas were we should be thriving

on the other hand i do think that companies should be hiring developers who dont have a specific skillset but are experts in the theory of software development, it isnt very hard to learn a new language if you have the foundations and i have heard numerous very successful technology entrepeneurs say the biggest mistake they made was hiring geniuses in one particular area

eg. if they needed something done in php they would hire the best php guy they could find, but once al the php work was done he was affectively useless wereas if you hire the best developers in general they have the ability to adapt to any language recquired for the project

Lumen

@CrazyRabbit: I imagine those are bordering on legacy skills at this stage, so it's not really a reflection on the Irish workforce.

I used to do that stuff (salaried with Lotus/IBM in the UK for a couple of years then worked as a contractor on the same stuff) but moved on to Java EE in about 2001, and I'm much happier for it.

You'd have to pay me about a million quid a year to ever touch a piece of Lotus software again. :pac:

CrazyRabbit

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

9 months waiting and it didn't occur to you to find someone with js OR lotus and train them up? They'd know what they were doing by now.

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

dory

Same in my job - very few Irish people speak second or third languages so they can't be hired.

CrazyRabbit

jester77 wrote: »

Found your problem

Yeah...Lotusscript is a pain. Though it is still very very common as a lot of large companies use Lotus Notes, so Notes application development is still very common (We have over 5,000 Notes Applications in the company I work for).

muckwarrior

I know a java developer who didn't get a job because he was experienced in struts but not spring (or vice versa). It probably would have taken him no more than a week or two to adapt but instead the company chose to spend months looking for someone with the exact skill set required.

It'd be kinda like not hiring a painter because he's never used the particular colour you want to paint your room.

Duggy747

bluewolf wrote: »

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

Apparently, whatever you have in IT experience and degrees /cert don't hold a candle to you holding an ECDL cert.

I was essentially told that 2 years ago by a non-IT interviewer. :pac:

prinz

The problem with Ireland IMO is there is a lack of appreciation for education (for education's sake). We view education as a conveyor belt to study, job, earn, repeat. Hence whenever a sort of boom comes along there's a mad rush for the bandwagon, be it computers/IT, then construction, banking and legal etc. By the time we get a glut of graduates through the system the bubble in the relevant sector has burst and a lot end up emigrating.

Secondly we have an almost 'socialist' education system, where everyone is forced through at the one level. Those above are held back, those below are just pushed through regardless. It doesn't work. You end up with both sets of people unhappy and incapable of adapting IMO.

themucaro

Same in the company I work in - we can't find a Russian/German translator, madness considering the Eastern European influence in Ireland today

Korvanica

if companies are as retarded as some of these stories, they dont deserve employees...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056110501&highlight=ecdl

Dangerous Man

It's not just restricted to Ireland though. If, as another poster pointed out, there are 80,000 vacancies in Ireland - it's unlikely it's the fault of the unemployed. Here in Canada, there is a serious doctor shortage. Yet, we have countless doctors from all around the world driving taxis in Toronto etc because their qualifications aren't recognized.
The thing with skills is that they are only skills and in most cases are easily learned. Employers should take more heed of this.

syklops

When I was leaving in school at the end of the last millennium, I was advised by numerous guidance counsellors to avoid IT, because of the downturn and the aftermath of the Dotcom bubble. Stubbornly, I carried on and after years of hard work have secured my dream job.

So between stupidity by those who should be in the know, and the property bubble(where a lot of smart people left IT degrees and IT careers to go lay blocks for a euro a minute), our IT skillset is left poor and under manned.

And don't get me started on Fas.

Orando Broom

Is the Irish education system not based on the behavioural model of lemmings. One jumps in all jump in.

Duggy747

syklops wrote: »

And don't get me started on Fas.

Actually, since Fás got their act together in past while I've been pretty grateful. I've gotten to build up on my IT certs for free and, though it's a WPP1 non-paying job, I'm back working as an IT Techie in a disability sector and loving it.

It's just me and the Network Admin covering Co.Galway and the odd week I get bumped up to Admin :pac:

Copper23

I see a problem on both candidate and employers side.

Potential Employees:
- If out of work realise it is a great time to re-train, in computing, if you already have an existing degree, find out what the industry is using and self learn it.
- Stop thinking a degree is enough!
- I know people who have got a degree 2,3,4,5,10(!) years ago and think this alone gets the the job without even brushing up on what they learned (10!) years ago before and interview.
- I know people who don't realize a degree alone is not enough, technology changes, it is your duty to keep up, not your right to have a job.
- I also know one good friend who realized their Sciences degree alone was not enough, they have gone on to specialize in a certain area where they are crying out for people however so by the summer he will be qualified and able. Had he not done the extra 12 months of learning, his degree wasn't much help but he realized this.

Employers:
- Realize your skillset is diverse and in the OP's case these languages do not compliment each other usually, it is more "by chance" someone experienced both than it is the norm.
- Realize your best bet is to hire someone with the highest experience/closest skillset and train the rest.
- Yeah it's a hit but a little investment in the new employee could pay off long term and a top java programmer should pick up a new language at the drop of a hat.

sink

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

strokemyclover

Surely prostitution is where the money is at these days. Single IT professionals needs to spend their money somewhere that doesn't require good social skills!

ciagr297

i think alot of job descriptions are not properly understood by both sides.

the job description is an ideal list of things and it may be an exact match for someone, but its fairly rare it happens that way

Lumen

sink wrote: »

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

It's not about the language.

Ticktactoe

Duggy747 wrote: »

Apparently, whatever you have in IT experience and degrees /cert don't hold a candle to you holding an ECDL cert.

I was essentially told that 2 years ago by an non-IT interviewer idiot. :pac:

In the words of Jester77 - Found your problem

Pft none of these skills will benefit you when the Zombies come.

Scram

bluewolf wrote: »

9 months waiting and it didn't occur to you to find someone with js OR lotus and train them up? They'd know what they were doing by now.

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

Should be the name of this thread tbh.

Rothmans

Korvanica wrote: »

if companies are as retarded as some of these stories, they dont deserve employees...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056110501&highlight=ecdl

Where does that link go? For some reson it won't let me follow it.

Overheal

Too many employers looking for planetary alignment. Sure you think "gosh, theres a million people unemployed! Surely we can find someone with X Y Z and has background work in Q V D" But what they all fail to realise is that whatever business they are in probably doesn't have that much competition, or that much competition with that position in their company, and that the person they are looking for to bring them in the door with no requirement for training is a less than 1 in a million probability; that in all, there might only be a dozen or so people in the country that have that particular skillset, and if you need to hire one, there is a chance the other 12 are employed elsewhere.

Senna

Paddy Power are having a difficult time filling IT jobs, one department is 25 people short and it's not a big department. The problem is some companies Will just up and leave for another country if they can't get the staff here

maninasia

Overheal wrote: »

Too many employers looking for planetary alignment. Sure you think "gosh, theres a million people unemployed! Surely we can find someone with X Y Z and has background work in Q V D" But what they all fail to realise is that whatever business they are in probably doesn't have that much competition, or that much competition with that position in their company, and that the person they are looking for to bring them in the door with no requirement for training is a less than 1 in a million probability; that in all, there might only be a dozen or so people in the country that have that particular skillset, and if you need to hire one, there is a chance the other 12 are employed elsewhere.

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up