So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

CrazyRabbit

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

biko

Skilled.

prinz

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

Behind some, ahead of others. Depending on the area of work etc. Tbh I can't think of anyone I have come across in any sort of business transaction/service industry who could be said to be more skilled than what I have experienced abroad. Depends on what you mean by 'skilled' though.

ronkmonster

Would it not be faster to grab a candidate with some of the skills you need (java) and train them up than having to grab someone from dole with (potentially) no programming experience and fully train them.

jester77

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Lotusscript

Found your problem

PeakOutput

according to a few people i know who run it departments there are 80K unfilled it jobs in this country. it is the one area we are grossly lacking and one of the main areas were we should be thriving

on the other hand i do think that companies should be hiring developers who dont have a specific skillset but are experts in the theory of software development, it isnt very hard to learn a new language if you have the foundations and i have heard numerous very successful technology entrepeneurs say the biggest mistake they made was hiring geniuses in one particular area

eg. if they needed something done in php they would hire the best php guy they could find, but once al the php work was done he was affectively useless wereas if you hire the best developers in general they have the ability to adapt to any language recquired for the project

Lumen

@CrazyRabbit: I imagine those are bordering on legacy skills at this stage, so it's not really a reflection on the Irish workforce.

I used to do that stuff (salaried with Lotus/IBM in the UK for a couple of years then worked as a contractor on the same stuff) but moved on to Java EE in about 2001, and I'm much happier for it.

You'd have to pay me about a million quid a year to ever touch a piece of Lotus software again. :pac:

CrazyRabbit

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

9 months waiting and it didn't occur to you to find someone with js OR lotus and train them up? They'd know what they were doing by now.

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

dory

Same in my job - very few Irish people speak second or third languages so they can't be hired.

CrazyRabbit

jester77 wrote: »

Found your problem

Yeah...Lotusscript is a pain. Though it is still very very common as a lot of large companies use Lotus Notes, so Notes application development is still very common (We have over 5,000 Notes Applications in the company I work for).

muckwarrior

I know a java developer who didn't get a job because he was experienced in struts but not spring (or vice versa). It probably would have taken him no more than a week or two to adapt but instead the company chose to spend months looking for someone with the exact skill set required.

It'd be kinda like not hiring a painter because he's never used the particular colour you want to paint your room.

Duggy747

bluewolf wrote: »

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

Apparently, whatever you have in IT experience and degrees /cert don't hold a candle to you holding an ECDL cert.

I was essentially told that 2 years ago by a non-IT interviewer. :pac:

prinz

The problem with Ireland IMO is there is a lack of appreciation for education (for education's sake). We view education as a conveyor belt to study, job, earn, repeat. Hence whenever a sort of boom comes along there's a mad rush for the bandwagon, be it computers/IT, then construction, banking and legal etc. By the time we get a glut of graduates through the system the bubble in the relevant sector has burst and a lot end up emigrating.

Secondly we have an almost 'socialist' education system, where everyone is forced through at the one level. Those above are held back, those below are just pushed through regardless. It doesn't work. You end up with both sets of people unhappy and incapable of adapting IMO.

themucaro

Same in the company I work in - we can't find a Russian/German translator, madness considering the Eastern European influence in Ireland today

Korvanica

if companies are as retarded as some of these stories, they dont deserve employees...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056110501&highlight=ecdl

Dangerous Man

It's not just restricted to Ireland though. If, as another poster pointed out, there are 80,000 vacancies in Ireland - it's unlikely it's the fault of the unemployed. Here in Canada, there is a serious doctor shortage. Yet, we have countless doctors from all around the world driving taxis in Toronto etc because their qualifications aren't recognized.
The thing with skills is that they are only skills and in most cases are easily learned. Employers should take more heed of this.

syklops

When I was leaving in school at the end of the last millennium, I was advised by numerous guidance counsellors to avoid IT, because of the downturn and the aftermath of the Dotcom bubble. Stubbornly, I carried on and after years of hard work have secured my dream job.

So between stupidity by those who should be in the know, and the property bubble(where a lot of smart people left IT degrees and IT careers to go lay blocks for a euro a minute), our IT skillset is left poor and under manned.

And don't get me started on Fas.

Orando Broom

Is the Irish education system not based on the behavioural model of lemmings. One jumps in all jump in.

Duggy747

syklops wrote: »

And don't get me started on Fas.

Actually, since Fás got their act together in past while I've been pretty grateful. I've gotten to build up on my IT certs for free and, though it's a WPP1 non-paying job, I'm back working as an IT Techie in a disability sector and loving it.

It's just me and the Network Admin covering Co.Galway and the odd week I get bumped up to Admin :pac:

Copper23

I see a problem on both candidate and employers side.

Potential Employees:
- If out of work realise it is a great time to re-train, in computing, if you already have an existing degree, find out what the industry is using and self learn it.
- Stop thinking a degree is enough!
- I know people who have got a degree 2,3,4,5,10(!) years ago and think this alone gets the the job without even brushing up on what they learned (10!) years ago before and interview.
- I know people who don't realize a degree alone is not enough, technology changes, it is your duty to keep up, not your right to have a job.
- I also know one good friend who realized their Sciences degree alone was not enough, they have gone on to specialize in a certain area where they are crying out for people however so by the summer he will be qualified and able. Had he not done the extra 12 months of learning, his degree wasn't much help but he realized this.

Employers:
- Realize your skillset is diverse and in the OP's case these languages do not compliment each other usually, it is more "by chance" someone experienced both than it is the norm.
- Realize your best bet is to hire someone with the highest experience/closest skillset and train the rest.
- Yeah it's a hit but a little investment in the new employee could pay off long term and a top java programmer should pick up a new language at the drop of a hat.

sink

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

strokemyclover

Surely prostitution is where the money is at these days. Single IT professionals needs to spend their money somewhere that doesn't require good social skills!

ciagr297

i think alot of job descriptions are not properly understood by both sides.

the job description is an ideal list of things and it may be an exact match for someone, but its fairly rare it happens that way

Lumen

sink wrote: »

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

It's not about the language.

Ticktactoe

Duggy747 wrote: »

Apparently, whatever you have in IT experience and degrees /cert don't hold a candle to you holding an ECDL cert.

I was essentially told that 2 years ago by an non-IT interviewer idiot. :pac:

In the words of Jester77 - Found your problem

Pft none of these skills will benefit you when the Zombies come.

Scram

bluewolf wrote: »

9 months waiting and it didn't occur to you to find someone with js OR lotus and train them up? They'd know what they were doing by now.

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

Should be the name of this thread tbh.

Rothmans

Korvanica wrote: »

if companies are as retarded as some of these stories, they dont deserve employees...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056110501&highlight=ecdl

Where does that link go? For some reson it won't let me follow it.

Overheal

Too many employers looking for planetary alignment. Sure you think "gosh, theres a million people unemployed! Surely we can find someone with X Y Z and has background work in Q V D" But what they all fail to realise is that whatever business they are in probably doesn't have that much competition, or that much competition with that position in their company, and that the person they are looking for to bring them in the door with no requirement for training is a less than 1 in a million probability; that in all, there might only be a dozen or so people in the country that have that particular skillset, and if you need to hire one, there is a chance the other 12 are employed elsewhere.

Senna

Paddy Power are having a difficult time filling IT jobs, one department is 25 people short and it's not a big department. The problem is some companies Will just up and leave for another country if they can't get the staff here

maninasia

Overheal wrote: »

Too many employers looking for planetary alignment. Sure you think "gosh, theres a million people unemployed! Surely we can find someone with X Y Z and has background work in Q V D" But what they all fail to realise is that whatever business they are in probably doesn't have that much competition, or that much competition with that position in their company, and that the person they are looking for to bring them in the door with no requirement for training is a less than 1 in a million probability; that in all, there might only be a dozen or so people in the country that have that particular skillset, and if you need to hire one, there is a chance the other 12 are employed elsewhere.

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up

syklops

maninasia wrote: »

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up

That is the problem. HR people who dont have a clue when it comes to IT. Thats why companies cant hire. I wonder how many CVs get binned by idiots HR people because they have C++ and C# on their CVs but the Job Spec says "Experience with Object-Oriented programming".

Procasinator

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

Obviously I don't know your requirements, but why not get someone proficient in Java, JavaScript and Visual Basic (should be dime a dozen), and purchase some training/certification from IBM.

http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/training/

The cost of training would be probably less than the cost of hours spent for the last 9 months trying to hire the perfect match.

starbelgrade

I don't know what's going on here.

SeaFields

syklops wrote: »

That is the problem. HR people who dont have a clue when it comes to IT. Thats why companies cant hire. I wonder how many CVs get binned by idiots HR people because they have C++ and C# on their CVs but the Job Spec says "Experience with Object-Oriented programming".

Substitute all the IT stuff there with almost anything professional and same problem applies. I know someone who, at the time was working in HR, and was interviewing mechanical engineers for various projects.

Edit - should have mentioned she worked in HR after her leaving cert.

aidan24326

maninasia wrote: »

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up

Absolutely. How HR staff gimps are seen fit to handle the hiring process is beyond me. Fair enough if it's a failry routine or menial job, but for anything relatively skilled they often don't have a clue. I think HR actually refers to an (unfortunately) related hominid species called 'Homo Retardus'.

Procasinator

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know what's going on here.

Thank you for your interest, but we have decided to select a more suitable candidate.

Korvanica

Rothmans wrote: »

Where does that link go? For some reson it won't let me follow it.

Thread called "Stupid feckin interviewers" in Ranting & Raving. You need a mods permission to access ranting and raving...

tommyhaas

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Here in Canada, there is a serious doctor shortage. Yet, we have countless doctors from all around the world driving taxis in Toronto etc because their qualifications aren't recognized.
The thing with skills is that they are only skills and in most cases are easily learned. Employers should take more heed of this.

Thats a dangerous road to go down though for a number of reasons. Both the authenticity and the standard of these qualification obtained in certain countries is questionable. Another issue then is the Medical professionals. Surely they wouldnt be happy working alongside others with questionable qualifications, both from a profesional view point and from a selfish one (''I should earn more then them because I was trained to a higher standard etc'')

While Im not saying these taxi drivers are not good doctors, I dont think a Medical liscence obtained in the likes of India or the Philippines should entitle the holder to practice eleswhere without a substantial period of training and equivelancy exams

El Horseboxo

I found out that i got turned down for a position before because i wrote fluent in español rather than fluent in spanish. That's all i can really put as i never studied spanish. I inherited it. I ended up with a different job in the same company and then transfered. The person in HR didn't know the translation despite me sending in a cover letter in both English and spanish to a company looking for someone with knowledge of that language.

Lumen

aidan24326 wrote: »

Absolutely. How HR staff gimps are seen fit to handle the hiring process is beyond me. Fair enough if it's a failry routine or menial job, but for anything relatively skilled they often don't have a clue. I think HR actually refers to an (unfortunately) related hominid species called 'Homo Retardus'.

You can't really blame the HR people. HR are mostly there to shuffle paper and protect the company from legal action by its employees.

Hiring people is boring and time consuming. Engineers in particular (including those promoted to management positions) would rather be doing anything else. So HR get pulled in to "help".

As for recruitment consultants, they are an occasionally necessary evil for headhunting purposes, but for the most part I'd rather stick stuff on Monster or whatever and filter the results myself.

El Horseboxo

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I found out that i got turned down for a position before because i wrote fluent in español rather than fluent in spanish. That's all i can really put as i never studied spanish. I inherited it. I ended up with a different job in the same company and then transfered. The person in HR didn't know the translation despite me sending in a cover letter in both English and spanish to a company looking for someone with knowledge of that language.

Maybe it was the fact you wrote 'fluent in español' in an English cover letter? Why on earth would you do that other than to be pretentious?

HellFireClub

The problem with this country is the standard of people management, the whole country has progressed on a "it's not what you know it's who you know", basis for the last 20 years, and no more so than in the boom.

So now we have a whole hierarchy of idiots in people management positions in this couldn't that couldn't be trusted to run a f*cking bath...

Copper23

sink wrote: »

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

I really wouldn't think so.
The very fact that someone studies Java in college, for example, is the exact reason why they would NEVER have touched VB or anything of the like. Why would they?

Having said that, any Java programmer worth his salt could be banging out vb with very little training.

As I said, it's a failure of the candidates part, if you are out of work for a year yet don't have the time to prepare to learn a new skil which the industry is looking for them good luck to you, you dont deserve a job.

From the employers part, they need to realise there are plenty great Java developers out there, probably a smaller number with Lotus experience of any note. Any common sense would say to offer the job to a decent Java programmer with the caveat that the job will entail the Lotus-scripting. If they are that desperate for a job they certainly won't turn it down based on not wanting to learn Lotus script, it should be piss easy for them.



I'm just using the OP's situation as an example. It applies to so many situations, job, topics, etc...
Everyone wants stuff on a golden plate. You have to work for it. OP desperately wants someone for this position, there are plenty people out there with IT degrees desperate for jobs.... Logic says if you are one of those people, then use your time to get the knowledge, submit a CV and boom, you've done a good interview, all are happy.

stimpson

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript)

Anyone qualified to develop in Lotusscript can probably find better (paying) jobs.

Oh, and Java and Javascript are two completely different languages. But then I'm sure your department knew that...

muckwarrior

Copper23 wrote: »

As I said, it's a failure of the candidates part, if you are out of work for a year yet don't have the time to prepare to learn a new skil which the industry is looking for them good luck to you, you dont deserve a job.

You could learn XYZ but if you don't have any work experience most recruiters will discount it.

I agree though, if you're a developer you should use your downtime to learn something new, preferably something that's demonstrable to a prospective employer, e.g. a mobile app. I got my first job out of college because I put some websites online that I'd developed as college projects.

aidan24326

tommyhaas wrote: »

Medical liscence obtained in the likes of India or the Philippines should entitle the holder to practice eleswhere without a substantial period of training and equivelancy exams

India has some very decent universities turning out graduates of a good standard. Yes they'd still have to sit a medical licensing exam here (as is standard for non-EU-trained applicants) but I expect their training and education, provided they attended one of the better universities (of which there are plenty), would be well up to scratch. Think you're being a tad harsh on India there (but of course being such a vast country it's bound to have some colleges that aren't very good).

Now parts of Africa would be a whole other matter, there's a good reason why degrees from some parts of that continent get little or no recognition.

af_thefragile

I got Skills!!!

muckwarrior

muckwarrior wrote: »

You could learn XYZ but if you don't have any work experience most recruiters will discount it.

Don't agree. I find a lot of employers are surprisingly flexible about that and if you say you can do it, it's enough. Once you can talk about it and it's obvious you didn't just make it up. I've never had to prove I could speak any of my languages (the ones I didn't do in college) or that I really knew web design, the cover letter was enough. I was just looking for jobs there today and I was surprised at how many jobs didn't require exact qualifications.

starlit

It is very difficult for employers to pinpoint a potential employee with definite skillsets. Not every potential cadidate is going to have what employers are looking for. If they have most of what employers need in a employee they should consider employing them even if it means training them up in one or two or more areas but is an expert in everything else should that be such a big deal for employers? If you can one learn computing language you can learn another, hands on training is probably better than some joe soap teaching them or in the case of some versions of computer languages do go out of date, they need to be trained up anyway so whats the difference!? Is it that employers are too lazy to train them up or rather someone have the exact skill set (that's vertually impossible!)

There are so many different computer languages, so many different range of IT skills and software etc not evevery IT person will have learnt lotus notes and everything else as IT is such a varied subject. There are people who range in different types of skills, most people should have a basic skill set in IT i.e. turn on a computer, email, print, use word/excel ect and those who may need ECDL to do a basic office job, and those who are a little more advanced say technical support and then those who are experts i.e. in more difinitive roles like networking admin, Java programmer etc

There are those who are skilled in a variety of areas multimedia as well as business and or IT or those a jack of all trades. There are those who have only one area of expertise like nursing, teaching, science and business etc. For them its probably harder to find jobs outside of those areas as their skills are soley on the industry they have skills in.

Some people in Ireland have the right skills but not the right job for them so end up emigrating or end up doing a different job from the industry they wished to go into. Employers could be just a little bit too picky as to employing people, just because an employee might not have all the qualifications and skills needed but their experience and qualities could be what an employer is looking for yet not employ them. I thought qualities and experience is just as important as I always thought that was the case not just skills and qualifications? Surely employers could learn to meet potential employees half way? "You scratch my back I scratch yours..."
Its possible that potential employees don't have the right skills but surely if they don't have the right skills their skills are redudant then and no use for them otherwise? Whats the point!? So basically the education system is a farce? I didn't spend over 20 years in the education system to end up with no job!

If potential employees are willing to go all out to find jobs then why aren't employers taking more notice? If its just about money then employers have more problems if they aren't willing to pay people and just have people work for them for free its different if they couldn't afford it thats ok better to lay off people in that case. There is a reason why people are being paid though so they can pay bills and afford a decent standard of living and spend. No wonder the recession has created a domino affect which in itself is partially to blame for high rise in unemployment. Don't get me started on the government and agencies of any sort trying to create jobs. Have they made an effort, I am uncertain. If they have I see very little evidence of their effort. They don't go all out to force people to work whether they on the dole or not! They say so many jobs have been created in such a place but when you see the jobs they are offering doesn't add up to the number of jobs that they are offering? To me its all talk, creating jobs, have the jobs been created is what I'd like to know? If they have its a poor number if you ask me. Or else they have been filled before anyone else gets a chance to go for them once announced.

How bad can unemployment get well then emigration is the only answer if there aren't any jobs! Where are they?!

Nolanger

If there are still lots of Irish jobs for Lotus notes developers then why aren't the colleges here teaching this stuff?