So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

syklops

maninasia wrote: »

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up

That is the problem. HR people who dont have a clue when it comes to IT. Thats why companies cant hire. I wonder how many CVs get binned by idiots HR people because they have C++ and C# on their CVs but the Job Spec says "Experience with Object-Oriented programming".

Procasinator

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

Obviously I don't know your requirements, but why not get someone proficient in Java, JavaScript and Visual Basic (should be dime a dozen), and purchase some training/certification from IBM.

http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/training/

The cost of training would be probably less than the cost of hours spent for the last 9 months trying to hire the perfect match.

starbelgrade

I don't know what's going on here.

SeaFields

syklops wrote: »

That is the problem. HR people who dont have a clue when it comes to IT. Thats why companies cant hire. I wonder how many CVs get binned by idiots HR people because they have C++ and C# on their CVs but the Job Spec says "Experience with Object-Oriented programming".

Substitute all the IT stuff there with almost anything professional and same problem applies. I know someone who, at the time was working in HR, and was interviewing mechanical engineers for various projects.

Edit - should have mentioned she worked in HR after her leaving cert.

aidan24326

maninasia wrote: »

Managers
-Don't let HR depts control hiring
-Invest in people and train them up

Absolutely. How HR staff gimps are seen fit to handle the hiring process is beyond me. Fair enough if it's a failry routine or menial job, but for anything relatively skilled they often don't have a clue. I think HR actually refers to an (unfortunately) related hominid species called 'Homo Retardus'.

Procasinator

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know what's going on here.

Thank you for your interest, but we have decided to select a more suitable candidate.

Korvanica

Rothmans wrote: »

Where does that link go? For some reson it won't let me follow it.

Thread called "Stupid feckin interviewers" in Ranting & Raving. You need a mods permission to access ranting and raving...

tommyhaas

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Here in Canada, there is a serious doctor shortage. Yet, we have countless doctors from all around the world driving taxis in Toronto etc because their qualifications aren't recognized.
The thing with skills is that they are only skills and in most cases are easily learned. Employers should take more heed of this.

Thats a dangerous road to go down though for a number of reasons. Both the authenticity and the standard of these qualification obtained in certain countries is questionable. Another issue then is the Medical professionals. Surely they wouldnt be happy working alongside others with questionable qualifications, both from a profesional view point and from a selfish one (''I should earn more then them because I was trained to a higher standard etc'')

While Im not saying these taxi drivers are not good doctors, I dont think a Medical liscence obtained in the likes of India or the Philippines should entitle the holder to practice eleswhere without a substantial period of training and equivelancy exams

El Horseboxo

I found out that i got turned down for a position before because i wrote fluent in español rather than fluent in spanish. That's all i can really put as i never studied spanish. I inherited it. I ended up with a different job in the same company and then transfered. The person in HR didn't know the translation despite me sending in a cover letter in both English and spanish to a company looking for someone with knowledge of that language.

Lumen

aidan24326 wrote: »

Absolutely. How HR staff gimps are seen fit to handle the hiring process is beyond me. Fair enough if it's a failry routine or menial job, but for anything relatively skilled they often don't have a clue. I think HR actually refers to an (unfortunately) related hominid species called 'Homo Retardus'.

You can't really blame the HR people. HR are mostly there to shuffle paper and protect the company from legal action by its employees.

Hiring people is boring and time consuming. Engineers in particular (including those promoted to management positions) would rather be doing anything else. So HR get pulled in to "help".

As for recruitment consultants, they are an occasionally necessary evil for headhunting purposes, but for the most part I'd rather stick stuff on Monster or whatever and filter the results myself.

El Horseboxo

El Horseboxo wrote: »

I found out that i got turned down for a position before because i wrote fluent in español rather than fluent in spanish. That's all i can really put as i never studied spanish. I inherited it. I ended up with a different job in the same company and then transfered. The person in HR didn't know the translation despite me sending in a cover letter in both English and spanish to a company looking for someone with knowledge of that language.

Maybe it was the fact you wrote 'fluent in español' in an English cover letter? Why on earth would you do that other than to be pretentious?

HellFireClub

The problem with this country is the standard of people management, the whole country has progressed on a "it's not what you know it's who you know", basis for the last 20 years, and no more so than in the boom.

So now we have a whole hierarchy of idiots in people management positions in this couldn't that couldn't be trusted to run a f*cking bath...

Copper23

sink wrote: »

Surely there are plenty of people out there with both Java and VB. Lotus is adapted from basic, anybody adept with VB should be able learn Lotus in a few days.

I really wouldn't think so.
The very fact that someone studies Java in college, for example, is the exact reason why they would NEVER have touched VB or anything of the like. Why would they?

Having said that, any Java programmer worth his salt could be banging out vb with very little training.

As I said, it's a failure of the candidates part, if you are out of work for a year yet don't have the time to prepare to learn a new skil which the industry is looking for them good luck to you, you dont deserve a job.

From the employers part, they need to realise there are plenty great Java developers out there, probably a smaller number with Lotus experience of any note. Any common sense would say to offer the job to a decent Java programmer with the caveat that the job will entail the Lotus-scripting. If they are that desperate for a job they certainly won't turn it down based on not wanting to learn Lotus script, it should be piss easy for them.



I'm just using the OP's situation as an example. It applies to so many situations, job, topics, etc...
Everyone wants stuff on a golden plate. You have to work for it. OP desperately wants someone for this position, there are plenty people out there with IT degrees desperate for jobs.... Logic says if you are one of those people, then use your time to get the knowledge, submit a CV and boom, you've done a good interview, all are happy.

stimpson

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript)

Anyone qualified to develop in Lotusscript can probably find better (paying) jobs.

Oh, and Java and Javascript are two completely different languages. But then I'm sure your department knew that...

muckwarrior

Copper23 wrote: »

As I said, it's a failure of the candidates part, if you are out of work for a year yet don't have the time to prepare to learn a new skil which the industry is looking for them good luck to you, you dont deserve a job.

You could learn XYZ but if you don't have any work experience most recruiters will discount it.

I agree though, if you're a developer you should use your downtime to learn something new, preferably something that's demonstrable to a prospective employer, e.g. a mobile app. I got my first job out of college because I put some websites online that I'd developed as college projects.

aidan24326

tommyhaas wrote: »

Medical liscence obtained in the likes of India or the Philippines should entitle the holder to practice eleswhere without a substantial period of training and equivelancy exams

India has some very decent universities turning out graduates of a good standard. Yes they'd still have to sit a medical licensing exam here (as is standard for non-EU-trained applicants) but I expect their training and education, provided they attended one of the better universities (of which there are plenty), would be well up to scratch. Think you're being a tad harsh on India there (but of course being such a vast country it's bound to have some colleges that aren't very good).

Now parts of Africa would be a whole other matter, there's a good reason why degrees from some parts of that continent get little or no recognition.

af_thefragile

I got Skills!!!

muckwarrior

muckwarrior wrote: »

You could learn XYZ but if you don't have any work experience most recruiters will discount it.

Don't agree. I find a lot of employers are surprisingly flexible about that and if you say you can do it, it's enough. Once you can talk about it and it's obvious you didn't just make it up. I've never had to prove I could speak any of my languages (the ones I didn't do in college) or that I really knew web design, the cover letter was enough. I was just looking for jobs there today and I was surprised at how many jobs didn't require exact qualifications.

starlit

It is very difficult for employers to pinpoint a potential employee with definite skillsets. Not every potential cadidate is going to have what employers are looking for. If they have most of what employers need in a employee they should consider employing them even if it means training them up in one or two or more areas but is an expert in everything else should that be such a big deal for employers? If you can one learn computing language you can learn another, hands on training is probably better than some joe soap teaching them or in the case of some versions of computer languages do go out of date, they need to be trained up anyway so whats the difference!? Is it that employers are too lazy to train them up or rather someone have the exact skill set (that's vertually impossible!)

There are so many different computer languages, so many different range of IT skills and software etc not evevery IT person will have learnt lotus notes and everything else as IT is such a varied subject. There are people who range in different types of skills, most people should have a basic skill set in IT i.e. turn on a computer, email, print, use word/excel ect and those who may need ECDL to do a basic office job, and those who are a little more advanced say technical support and then those who are experts i.e. in more difinitive roles like networking admin, Java programmer etc

There are those who are skilled in a variety of areas multimedia as well as business and or IT or those a jack of all trades. There are those who have only one area of expertise like nursing, teaching, science and business etc. For them its probably harder to find jobs outside of those areas as their skills are soley on the industry they have skills in.

Some people in Ireland have the right skills but not the right job for them so end up emigrating or end up doing a different job from the industry they wished to go into. Employers could be just a little bit too picky as to employing people, just because an employee might not have all the qualifications and skills needed but their experience and qualities could be what an employer is looking for yet not employ them. I thought qualities and experience is just as important as I always thought that was the case not just skills and qualifications? Surely employers could learn to meet potential employees half way? "You scratch my back I scratch yours..."
Its possible that potential employees don't have the right skills but surely if they don't have the right skills their skills are redudant then and no use for them otherwise? Whats the point!? So basically the education system is a farce? I didn't spend over 20 years in the education system to end up with no job!

If potential employees are willing to go all out to find jobs then why aren't employers taking more notice? If its just about money then employers have more problems if they aren't willing to pay people and just have people work for them for free its different if they couldn't afford it thats ok better to lay off people in that case. There is a reason why people are being paid though so they can pay bills and afford a decent standard of living and spend. No wonder the recession has created a domino affect which in itself is partially to blame for high rise in unemployment. Don't get me started on the government and agencies of any sort trying to create jobs. Have they made an effort, I am uncertain. If they have I see very little evidence of their effort. They don't go all out to force people to work whether they on the dole or not! They say so many jobs have been created in such a place but when you see the jobs they are offering doesn't add up to the number of jobs that they are offering? To me its all talk, creating jobs, have the jobs been created is what I'd like to know? If they have its a poor number if you ask me. Or else they have been filled before anyone else gets a chance to go for them once announced.

How bad can unemployment get well then emigration is the only answer if there aren't any jobs! Where are they?!

Nolanger

If there are still lots of Irish jobs for Lotus notes developers then why aren't the colleges here teaching this stuff?

starlit

Nolanger wrote: »

If there are still lots of Irish jobs for Lotus notes developers then why aren't the colleges here teaching this stuff?

They probably aren't. Depends on the course, every undergraduate IT course is slightly different whether they teach lotus notes may or may not be in the course. Depends on the college and resources I suppose. Chances are likely lotus notes tend to be taught in the working environment i.e hands on training or else they need to go off to do a short course specific in lotus notes! Only way around it I suppose. As far as I know you need to be a very good lotus notes developer like as in a genius to be able to do a job like that an average joe wouldn't have a hope not unless you have some sort of IT background at least.

RockinRolla

We need to privatise education.

The voucher system works well in Sweden and with a system like Finland we could produce the most skilled workforce in the world.

Birdnuts

As the guy said "the smart economy will not employ stupid people who are by far the majority". Worse IT itself is destroying jobs in other sectors since it allows downsizing, increased mechanisation and outsourcing. Mass unemployment I'm afraid is going to be the norm across most Western Societies FTFF:(

Nolanger

snuggles285 wrote: »

Chances are likely lotus notes tend to be taught in the working environment i.e hands on training or else they need to go off to do a short course specific in lotus notes!

Would this explain the IT skills shortage in Ireland when people are expected to learn Lotus Notes development "on the job" while the colleges teach stuff like Prolog or C++?

ntlbell

Birdnuts wrote: »

As the guy said "the smart economy will not employ stupid people who are by far the majority". Worse IT itself is destroying jobs in other sectors since it allows downsizing, increased mechanisation and outsourcing. Mass unemployment I'm afraid is going to be the norm across most Western Societies FTFF:(

Get into IT then

desaparecidos

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Java/Javascript

:rolleyes:

El Horseboxo

Serenity Nutritious Bug wrote: »

Maybe it was the fact you wrote 'fluent in español' in an English cover letter? Why on earth would you do that other than to be pretentious?

Are you for real? A Mexican being pretentious by saying he speaks Spanish. I didn't even know i was capable of that. Never mind the fact that i was applying for a position that required spanish or the fact that i want to write my first language's spelling correctly or the fact that i wanted to specify that i am fluent in español and not castellano. You must work in HR.

squod

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

So, I guess my main question is..how skilled are Irish people relative to people from other countries?

A company having to train someone to do a job. Jaysus, what is the world coming to. :rolleyes:

desaparecidos

Nolanger wrote: »

If there are still lots of Irish jobs for Lotus notes developers then why aren't the colleges here teaching this stuff?

I was supposed to do a course focused on Networking when the college cancelled the course (the day before I was due to start) saying that there was no longer any jobs in Networking.

A few years later when I graduated from a Software Engineering course I was let known there was now a high demand for Network Engineers.

Colleges are ****e in Ireland. The standard of lecturers and their lack of knowledge is pathetic.

The standard of Irish students is also pathetic. Borderline special needs most of them.

Bring on high college fee's I say, weed out the wasters who aren't dedicated enough and hire some decent lecturers.

sink

Copper23 wrote: »

I really wouldn't think so.
The very fact that someone studies Java in college, for example, is the exact reason why they would NEVER have touched VB or anything of the like. Why would they?

Afaik Basic and VB used to be common as an introductory language for beginner programmers, Java/C++ and other lower level languages being thought later.