So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

EKRIUQ · 05-01-2011 08:50PM

El Horseboxo wrote: »

Are you for real? A Mexican being pretentious by saying he speaks Spanish. I didn't even know i was capable of that. Never mind the fact that i was applying for a position that required spanish or the fact that i want to write my first language's spelling correctly or the fact that i wanted to specify that i am fluent in español and not castellano. You must work in HR.

You seem to have that Latin temperament anyway.

squod · 05-01-2011 08:50PM

desaparecidos wrote: »

Bring on high college fee's I say, weed out the wasters who aren't dedicated enough and hire some decent lecturers.

Heard a story of recently. Person just recently finished a doctorate gets a job as a shop manager with Adil. That's what six years of free college education gets you me thinks. Fuck.

amen · 05-01-2011 08:50PM

If there are still lots of Irish jobs for Lotus notes developers then why aren't the colleges here teaching this stuff?

why should they ? An IT degree is not a vocational cert in language X,Y, z of which there are several thousand.

The IT degree is meant to provide a broad understanding of the concepts and methodologies of programming, computer architecture, algorithms etc

Once you understand these its easy to lean the languages.

Think of college as learning how to read/write. Once you can read/write you can learn to be a doctor/plumber/teacher etc

gaellem · 05-01-2011 08:51PM

I think its a disgrace the way Irish companies today prefer to employ an eatern european with near enough no english than employing their own and accept to spend a bit of time and money to train them to their requirements. why should the irish bother paying themselves for training as they know they wont be employed even with the skills...

veryangryman · 05-01-2011 08:55PM

desaparecidos wrote: »

I was supposed to do a course focused on Networking when the college cancelled the course (the day before I was due to start) saying that there was no longer any jobs in Networking.

A few years later when I graduated from a Software Engineering course I was let known there was now a high demand for Network Engineers.

Colleges are ****e in Ireland. The standard of lecturers and their lack of knowledge is pathetic.

The standard of Irish students is also pathetic. Borderline special needs most of them.

Bring on high college fee's I say, weed out the wasters who aren't dedicated enough and hire some decent lecturers.

Id sooner have these wasters being paid to do a job than by my tax thanks very much.

Yeah the system drags along some very useless people who go into it for the wrong reasons (i work with some of them and there is not a day that you dont have facepalm moments - not that im particularly bright myself) but id sooner have it that way - what other solutions do you have? There is not enough smart people out there - society will always have passengers

05-01-2011 09:11PM

squod wrote: »

Heard a story of recently. Person just recently finished a doctorate gets a job as a shop manager with Adil. That's what six years of free college education gets you me thinks. Fuck.

What?

CrazyRabbit · 05-01-2011 09:12PM

ronkmonster wrote: »

Would it not be faster to grab a candidate with some of the skills you need (java) and train them up than having to grab someone from dole with (potentially) no programming experience and fully train them.

That's my point...it seems it would be faster. I guess they were hoping to quickly find someone with Lotusscript and then either Java or Javascript to compliment it.

bluewolf wrote: »

9 months waiting and it didn't occur to you to find someone with js OR lotus and train them up? They'd know what they were doing by now.

How skilled are Irish people at hiring?!

We didn't need anyone urgently (well until recently). So they were just hoping someone would come along with LS and also either JS or Java.

Procasinator wrote: »

Obviously I don't know your requirements, but why not get someone proficient in Java, JavaScript and Visual Basic (should be dime a dozen), and purchase some training/certification from IBM.

http://www-01.ibm.com/software/lotus/training/

The cost of training would be probably less than the cost of hours spent for the last 9 months trying to hire the perfect match.

Training costs money. Budgets are very tight.

stimpson wrote: »

Anyone qualified to develop in Lotusscript can probably find better (paying) jobs.

Oh, and Java and Javascript are two completely different languages. But then I'm sure your department knew that...

Yup, I'm aware they are different. Primarily we need a Lotusscript coder, who also has either JS or Java since we have other projects that could benefit from either of those skills. But it's 90% LS coding.

desaparecidos wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I didn't mean to suggest that JS & Java are the same. Only that we needed someone with either of those skills.

squod wrote: »

A company having to train someone to do a job. Jaysus, what is the world coming to. :rolleyes:

As above, training costs money. Budgets are very tight.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 09:20PM

Original post was

Where I work, my dept has been trying for over 9 months to hire someone with a specific skillset (Lotusscript + Java/Javascript) and has been unable to do so. There has been dozens of interviews, with no suitable candidates (most failing the technical exam).
One of the managers jokingly suggested that it would be quicker to grab a random person from the dole queue & train them from scratch.

It's got me wondering....exactly how skilled is our workforce?
Even if there was a sudden influx of new jobs to the country, would we be able to fill those jobs with appropriately skilled people, or would we be reliant on foriegn nationals (i.e. 80% of the people on my team are foriegn nationals).

For Lotusscript its based on Lotus notes/IBM. I used to work with Lotus notes years ago and its on the way out. The UN years ago used Lotus Notes and they also switched away from it. This is a very restricted area

For Javascript it sounds like java but in reality are very different. Javascript was called it cause Java had such a good name that they reused the name in its own name

The IT degree is meant to provide a broad understanding of the concepts and methodologies of programming, computer architecture, algorithms etc

Once you understand these its easy to lean the languages.

yes I agree, Unix was developed by At&T, Berkley, DARPA so is mixed in its code as different parts developed by different groups but all of it is basically like C. If take C++, Unix,Linux, VB, Java, Javascript you can see a relation in them. When you learn one the rest are easier

Alot of the learning with Java is their libraries, I hear the swing library alone is huge. Personally I dont see how you can know all there is about Java, you learn what you need to use. So if doing visual programming, then learn the relevant areas for that type of programming - thats what you need to know.

Just to get a specialist for Lotusscript would be hard enough, you would find one but they would also specialise in other areas that the original person is not interested in. A person for Lotusscript for qualification would need to pass CLP and then PCLP(LotusScript), to become qualified. Why would someone with Java/Javascript study such an exam when hardly any companies offer positions. I would recommend MCSE as more companies hire people with this qualification.

Not much point studying cisco CCNA then CCNP and then CCNE if there is no work in your area for a network specialist/engineer. Might as well get A+ and work in PC World.

I would say get a good graduate with Java programming and spend the money training them

Out of interest how much where you prepared to pay a suitably qualified person

SeaFields · 05-01-2011 09:33PM

squod wrote: »

Heard a story of recently. Person just recently finished a doctorate gets a job as a shop manager with Adil. That's what six years of free college education gets you me thinks.

Undergraduate is free (aside from registration fee) but you have to pay for postgraduate study by and large especially research.

05-01-2011 09:34PM

El Horseboxo wrote: »

Are you for real? A Mexican being pretentious by saying he speaks Spanish. I didn't even know i was capable of that. Never mind the fact that i was applying for a position that required spanish or the fact that i want to write my first language's spelling correctly or the fact that i wanted to specify that i am fluent in español and not castellano. You must work in HR.

Yes, I am for real. As you seem to have trouble understanding my posts, it's not pretentious to say you speak Spanish. It's pretentious to say you speak español. It's ridiculous. The name of the language in English is Spanish, not español. It's right up there with saying you went on holiday to Napoli instead of saying Naples. 'Oh look at me, I can speak another language, aren't I clever?' Do you also write 'hablo English' in your Spanish cover letters?

No, I don't work in HR, but if I did, I'd definitely have binned your application for that. I'm almost sure that's what happened. Even the thickest HR bint would either understand 'español' or look it up in a dictionary.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 09:40PM

As above, training costs money. Budgets are very tight

How much are you prepared to spend on training

If your short on money perhaps pay is poor. A poor pay packet will not attract a person to leave their current position to work with you. In the end your looking for more than just a recent graduate

What is the salary for position

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 09:47PM

snuggles285 ****** How bad can unemployment get well then emigration is the only answer if there aren't any jobs! Where are they?!

Yes I agree with post, I had this conversation with relation over the Christmas when he was home. Take United States for example, on Manhatten Island alone on any one day 5 million people there. Thats more than Ireland(total). You are bound to find a company requiring you skill set there. If not go to queens, New Jersey etc. Then again a short move to Boston, Washingtom etc you probably will find someone. The numbers are bigger so if you have CCNE for example, you will get an employer. In Ireland it would be much harder(smaller numbers etc).

In the end its the same for employers.

Wagon · 05-01-2011 10:23PM

LotusScript, Java and Javascript.

You'll have to train someone for that. It's really specific skills you're looking for. You'll get people with one or two of the skills needed (most likely Java and Javascript) but you'll have to get off your hole to train them in LotusScript

stimpson · 05-01-2011 10:33PM

A quick search shows all of one LS position in Ireland and it's based in Donegal. I'd rather a lowly QA job nearer civilisation than a Notes development gig in Letterkenny.

In fairness, we've had issues finding properly experienced staff ourselves and we're in Dublin city centre. You'll find that most of the 400,000 people on the dole don't actually have highly specialized IT skills.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 10:35PM

In fairness, we've had issues finding properly experienced staff ourselves and we're in Dublin city centre

What was salary

Alot of experienced people have jobs already, how are you going to attract them to move

What experience were you looking for ?

MysticalRain · 05-01-2011 10:35PM

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Training costs money. Budgets are very tight.

If you are not prepared to invest in people, then you cannot expect very much from them. You get what you pay for in the end. (I don't actually think it would cost that much to train a bright spark who knows VB.net or Java in LotusScript)

You would probably get away with it if the technology in question was more mainstream and in demand these days. Besides, few s/w developers these days can afford to risk their future career on a technology like Lotus script which is well obsolete at this point. The fact that you cannot find anybody for this kind of job is probably "the market" telling you that you expectations are unrealistic and you need to re-adjust them accordingly.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 10:38PM

If you are not prepared to invest in people, then you cannot expect very much from them. You get what you pay for in the end. (I don't actually think it would cost that much to train a bright spark who knows VB.net or Java in LotusScript)

You would probably get away with it if the technology in question was more mainstream and in demand these days. Besides, few s/w developers these days can afford to risk their future career on a technology like Lotus script which is well obsolete at this point. The fact that you cannot find anybody for this kind of job is probably "the market" telling you that you expectations are unrealistic and you need to re-adjust them accordingly.

I agree

stimpson · 05-01-2011 10:51PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

What was salary

Alot of experienced people have jobs already, how are you going to attract them to move

What experience were you looking for ?

In fairness we did fill our positions but it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. We were looking for a specific skill set and they had to be native language speakers. Money wasn't a problem (in that we were willing to pay over the odds for the right candidates).

Cuddlesworth · 05-01-2011 10:54PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

I would recommend MCSE as more companies hire people with this qualification.

Sounded like you knew what you were talking about there for a while.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 10:57PM

Sounded like you knew what you were talking about there for a while

tell me why I am wrong and I will tell you why I have that opinion

ScumLord · 05-01-2011 10:58PM

I have two unemployed friends that I've told should learn something like web design as it's a piece of piss and is an area where experience and work already done count more than a collage course. I gave them books but they wouldn't red them.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 11:01PM

I have two unemployed friends that I've told should learn something like web design as it's a piece of piss and is an area where experience and work already done count more than a collage course. I gave them books but they wouldn't red them.

I would also suggest MCSE, but Cuddlesworth is going to tell me why I am wrong

zweton · 05-01-2011 11:03PM

what about ccna?

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 11:07PM

what about ccna

good qualification, but you are restricted to a company with a network. A company with something like switches, routers etc

You cover how to program them. CISCO switches are different from 3COM which use a GUI. Need to track down a company which has a network that requires admin work or a company that provides this service etc.

zweton · 05-01-2011 11:09PM

dont most companys have a network...

OctavarIan · 05-01-2011 11:10PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I have two unemployed friends that I've told should learn something like web design as it's a piece of piss and is an area where experience and work already done count more than a collage course. I gave them books but they wouldn't red them.

Shit web design is a piece of piss. Maybe if you want to hover at a level that's just below average.

ntlbell · 05-01-2011 11:12PM

mbiking123 wrote: »

I would also suggest MCSE, but Cuddlesworth is going to tell me why I am wrong

first of all having an MCSE doesn't prove anything and for most MCSE (courses) all they teach you is how to pass the actual exam.

This might have been impressive 10 years ago but employers don't put much weight on MCSE's anymore, well at least not in any company you would want to work in.

An MCSE with no real world sys admin expirience is like applying to be a forumula 1 driver because you obtained a driving license.

ntlbell · 05-01-2011 11:13PM

zweton wrote: »

dont most companys have a network...

Most don't have one big enough that would require a full time/dedicated net admin/engineer.

mbiking123 · 05-01-2011 11:21PM

This might have been impressive 10 years ago but employers don't put much weight on MCSE's anymore, well at least not in any company you would want to work in.

An MCSE with no real world sys admin expirience is like applying to be a forumula 1 driver because you obtained a driving license.

But MCSE is what proves you have reaches the standard. There has been a gradual movement from network OS such as Novell to Microsoft. It is alot easier to admin as Novell for example runs on Linux. A company will always need people to do the usual password reset etc etc. Some users are real bad, they tell you there password wont work it is correct and its the system fault etc etc ..................................................

Doing SMS, SCCM, profiles etc etc does take a bit of learning. Most companies are on MS server at this stage and possibly a bit like a driving licence but even a formula one driver needs to start somewhere.

If someone wants to study for CCNE, fair play but will you get a job in say Castlebar? I would say get MCSE and prob get admin work alot easier. Would also handy to be A+ certified. Not much point getting Oracle OCA or Cisco CCNA if no positions where you live

muckwarrior · 05-01-2011 11:31PM

Off topic, but even F1 drivers need a super license before they're allowed race :cool:

So many unemployed...so few with the right skills

Comments