Ivan Yates - Celtic Bookmakers

jmayo · 04-01-2011 05:19PM

Dodge wrote: »

I'd argue that his ministerial pension allowed him the freedom of being slightly more aggressive than he would've been if he need Celtic to survive.

Obviously no where on the scale of McNamara

Yates comes from a long line of enterprise minded generations if I recell correctly and I get the feeling he was destined to move out of the stifling world of politics and back into business anyway.
It does now make sense why he took the Newstalk gig.

Atilathehun wrote: »

Did I say something about the taxpayer being responsible for Yates's debt's. No I didn't!

No, but you compare Yates' business failing with mcnamara.
There is no comparison between the two because we all have been made liable for the losses incurred by mcnamara.

Atilathehun wrote: »

I do however suggest that Yates got caught up in the hubris of the bubble and expanded his business at an unsustainable pace.

Yes maybe he did expand too fast and maybe he probably thought that the growth would have continued.
Most businesses try and expand.
He got hit with both massive cuts in consumer spending and the huge advent of on-line gambling which has led to this, but did he offer a product that was way overpriced or had reached bubble proportions ?

Atilathehun wrote: »

At the same time, he has taken strips out of other business people for making essentially the same mistake. That's my only point about Yates.

Comparing someone expanding a chain of betting shops to someone borrowing crazy amounts to buy over valued sites, all based on cheap credit continuiing and a bubble housing market continuing is stretching it.
Then the fallout from this crazy borrowing is dumped on us the taxpayers.

Atilathehun wrote: »

By the way, you are typing quicker than your brain can think! Read your blather about McNamara, and correct the statement about his gambles NOT, being covered by the tax payer.

That was a misprint, it should have read NOW and I think most people could infer that without being condescending about it.

For some reason it appears you do not like Yates and the other presenters and it actually appears from your posts that it is they have been speaking the truth about people like mcnamara.

Looking at your posts I could even hazard a bet that Yates' failure may be giving you joy. :rolleyes:

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup · 04-01-2011 05:21PM

Did anyone hear him on the Last Word there with Cooper? Poor fecker nearly broke down in tears, he's too honest for this country.

The Dagda · 04-01-2011 05:27PM

I heard him The Last Word and while I applaud his candor and openess, I feel, a large part of Ivan's publicising of this unfortunate event is the desire to protect the Ivan Yates "brand" for his bourgeoning media career...

danbohan · 04-01-2011 05:34PM

The Dagda wrote: »

I heard him The Last Word and while I applaud his candor and openess, I feel, a large part of Ivan's publicising of this unfortunate event is the desire to protect the Ivan Yates "brand" for his bourgeoning media career...

maybe , or maybe your just too cynical ?, either ways guy is in deep s1ht so goodluck to him if he can rebuild a career /buisness , he will need to

one thing has not changed in ireland is the amount of begrudgers

Liam Byrne · 04-01-2011 06:05PM

Yates' business has failed, possibly through some over-stretching on his behalf, possibly because of the crap state of the economy.

I have sympathy for him - as I would with anyone whose business is in jeopardy for the above reasons - because it's his business and because we haven't been asked forced to take on his debts by mates of his in power.

Mind you, the irony of those comparing Yates with FF & Co is hilarious; Yates was open about the fact that his business involved gambling!

oppenheimer1 · 04-01-2011 06:25PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Yates' business has failed, possibly through some over-stretching on his behalf, possibly because of the crap state of the economy.

I have sympathy for him - as I would with anyone whose business is in jeopardy for the above reasons - because it's his business and because we haven't been asked forced to take on his debts by mates of his in power.

Mind you, the irony of those comparing Yates with FF & Co is hilarious; Yates was open about the fact that his business involved gambling!

Actually we will be taking on his debts. Allied Irish Banks is the main creditor, and the one who called in the receiver, and if memory serves me correctly AIB is in the process of being fully nationalised. Monies not raised by the sale of assets will be bad debts for AIB - and the taxpayer.

Although a simplistic and high level approach to the reasons for failure, it was caused by optimism and expansion in a time the country was struggling financially. You could say he "carried on regardless" which is a term used to describe another group of businessmen.

Yes his business was based on gambling but Ivan didn't know he was gambling his business, which is an important distinction.

MidlandsM · 04-01-2011 06:32PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Allied Irish Banks is the main creditor, and the one who called in the receiver,

incorrect, he was on the 6.1 tv news there and he said he called in the recievers.

Sulmac · 04-01-2011 06:35PM

Did anyone see him on the Six-One News?

He basically said that he takes full personal responsibility for the business' failure and can't blame anyone or anything else.

If only our current politicians were like him!

oppenheimer1 · 04-01-2011 06:37PM

MidlandsM wrote: »

incorrect, he was on the 6.1 tv news there and he said he called in the recievers.

According to the Irish Times - from a statement issued from the directors this afternoon

"A statement from the directors confirmed AIB had appointed Neil Hughes of Hughes Blake accountants as receiver. The 47 betting shops are immediately being put up for sale as a going concern, either as individual units or as one lot." - Irish Times

I didn't see the 6.01 news so I can't comment if he contradicted his statement earlier.

paulaa · 04-01-2011 06:38PM

Mongarra wrote: »

Apart from his mother's house being vulnerable, I feel sorry for the 100 or so employees. The little I know of Ivan from a friend of a friend, he is sincere and I would think he is distressed about the job losses and the implications for his family. I know the latter would be at the forefront of any business failure but he would have thought long and hard about pulling the plug rather than just say 'to hell with it' and walk away.

He has over 200 employees. I agree with you. I've known Ivan for a long time and he is one of the straightest people I know. He took a chance and created a business, it failed.

Unlike the big developers and bankers who failed spectacularly, he is not hiding away or running off to Marbella or the US. He's open and above board about his problems and he's not asking the taxpayers to bail him out. I know he will be devastated about his staff too.

jimmycrackcorm · 04-01-2011 06:42PM

paulaa wrote: »

he's not asking the taxpayers to bail him out.

Unless he has the six million to repay the companys debt to AIb then yes the taxpayer will be on hook.

But sure what's six million compared to the billions bandied around....

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 06:42PM

Atilathehun wrote: »

I see Celtic Bookmakers have gone belly up.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0104/breaking31.html

In his statement Mr Yates said of the collapse of his business "we didn't see it coming" and "I acknowledge that the rapid expansion of the group in a few years left it vulnerable in a downturn"

Makes me laugh in one sense. Right here we have yet another media personality in the TV3 / Newstalk stables, preaching down their noses to the politicians, the unions, private sector employers, etc as to how things should have been handled over the past number of years.
The media personalities I refer to are Vincent Browne, George Hook and now Ivan Yates.
What do they have in common. They are all failed business men in their own rights, and yet think nothing of telling everybody else how the country should be run, and how it should have been run :cool::cool: FFS:rolleyes:

Your post absolutely stinks of typical Irish begrudgery. The vast majority of people who end up running a successful business, have failed on at least one or two previous occasions. Show me a man who has not failed and I'll show you a man who has not lived. There is no shame in having tried and failed, that's why we have no job opportunities in Ireland, because we'd rather slag off and abuse those that have tried and failed, rather than recognise them as people who are inherently wired to give it another go and create jobs in the future.

Ivan Yates pointed at the real cause of the problem with his business, which was that he wasn't able to develop an on-line presence within the business, while his competitors such as Paddy Power, etc, all had that in place and gained market share without having to have a real estate presence in every town and village that he wanted to trade in.

Shame on you for knocking a decent man who had the guts to give it a go, we need more people like him in Ireland...

fulmer1984 · 04-01-2011 06:44PM

just watched him on the news there a few minutes ago, got to give the guy credit for his honesty, took it on the chin, especially knowing full well that he could lose everything he ever worked for!

paulaa · 04-01-2011 06:49PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Unless he has the six million to repay the companys debt to AIb then yes the taxpayer will be on hook.

But sure what's six million compared to the billions bandied around....

He has 47 shops that should bring in a few bob to go towards his debt. He also gave a personal guarantee which includes his home. How many of those who owe Billions did that and have lost their homes ?

I suppose if he had been FF and owed billions he would be slapped on the back and maybe given a "digout"

The_Thing · 04-01-2011 06:51PM

It's nice to see someone paying the price for their gambles that didn't pay off.

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 06:54PM

fulmer1984 wrote: »

just watched him on the news there a few minutes ago, got to give the guy credit for his honesty, took it on the chin, especially knowing full well that he could lose everything he ever worked for!

Another thing he mentioned is that back in I think it was 2007, he banked a profit of 4 million Euro, his bank manager said that using the standard multiplier of 8, his business on that basis had a market value of 32 million Euro and he could borrow half of that figure to pursue future growth.

I know one or two guys running their own businesses who were approached by their bank managers, (I admit I don't know who made the approach in this particular case of Ivan Yates), and got the same set of proposals extended to them, such was the pressure on bank managers to lend more to "out Anglo" Anglo. The usual Celtic Tiger banking language of, "look sure it's a no brainer", "We're pre-approved this whole thing for you, the money can be in your bank account by midnight", "we need to you sign a personal guarantee but it's only a formality", all these revolting cliches were wheeled out to pressure people into taking on business loans that business owners had never even sought!

You'd have to say that the issue of who is liable under these kind of circumstances is a debate that we really need to have in this country. At the very least, the bank that pushed this loan onto any lender should be co-responsible for the loss if it doesn't work out... After all, it was the bank that valued the business on a short term basis while extending the loan as a long term liability...

InchicoreDude · 04-01-2011 06:56PM

Never really liked celtic for some reason. Did they even have an online facility actually? Never heard of one person using it anyway! Wouldnt be surprised to see more of this happening with other bookies. I know that I never bet in betting shops anymore and do most of this at Betfair.

sollar · 04-01-2011 07:05PM

He mentioned the farce that is upward only rent reviews in his interview. He says he could not renegotiate his rents when the business got into trouble and he even had to pay 2 and half years rent on some of the shops he closed.

I hope he uses his position on newstalk now to bang on and on and on about this unfair set up.

oppenheimer1 · 04-01-2011 07:09PM

sollar wrote: »

He mentioned the farce that is upward only rent reviews in his interview. He says he could not renegotiate his rents when the business got into trouble and he even had to pay 2 and half years rent on some of the shops he closed.

I hope he uses his position on newstalk now to bang on and on and on about this unfair set up.

I'm sure he knew about the upward only clause in the rental agreement when he signed the contracts. If he wasn't happy about it then he shouldn't have signed it. No point moaning about it after the fact.

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 07:10PM

InchicoreDude wrote: »

Never really liked celtic for some reason. Did they even have an online facility actually? Never heard of one person using it anyway! Wouldnt be surprised to see more of this happening with other bookies. I know that I never bet in betting shops anymore and do most of this at Betfair.

No he admitted on Six One that the failure to deploy an on-line betting capability within the business was one of the reasons why not only the business failed but also was part of why a merger wasn't possible. You can see easily enough why the likes of Paddy Power would look at Celtic and see a business that was based on an "old school", model that required shops on main streets, etc, all having to be staffed, when Paddy Power had moved on to be a leader in a national market, all run from an office block somewhere, it allowed for completely different economies of scale than could be pushed out of a business like Celtic with high street outlets all over the country.

I've seen a few businesses fail for this reason, technology moves along very fast these days and some business owners first of all don't have the lifetime exposure to internet technology even comprehend the fact that they need to move fast to deploy new internet technology within the business, then when it finally dawns on them, they lack the ability to manage the introduction of the new technology platform into the business in a cost efficient way...

bigpink · 04-01-2011 07:13PM

Pretty sure Ivan Yates will be fine what woukld his income from pensions be?

cson · 04-01-2011 07:23PM

@ Atilathehun

Do you know what's Irish?

Delighting in the failure of others.

cson · 04-01-2011 07:23PM

The_Thing wrote: »

It's nice to see someone paying the price for their gambles that didn't pay off.

Nicer than the 200 joining the dole queues in the near future?

paulaa · 04-01-2011 07:25PM

bigpink wrote: »

Pretty sure Ivan Yates will be fine what woukld his income from pensions be?

Since he gave personal guarantee I would imagine his ministerial pension is part of that. Sorry I have no idea what his pension would be.

Welease · 04-01-2011 07:27PM

bigpink wrote: »

Pretty sure Ivan Yates will be fine what woukld his income from pensions be?

€41.1K

leeroybrown · 04-01-2011 07:28PM

Some people on this thread seem to be forgetting that most sustainable businesses take a certain degree of risk and make bad decisions from time to time. The difference with Celtic Bookmakers and many of the other companies that are going under is that the huge global economic mess means that most of the normal recovery options aren't viable. At any time other than a deep recession most of these small/medium companies would would have the time to re-structure and stop making losses.

Upwards only rent reviews are something that the government should have tackled ages ago. They were supposed to but they've silently brushed it to one side as a sizeable percentage of these properties are already owned by either NAMA, encumbered by large bank loans that could go bad or owned by large companies that could go under.

Cummybaby · 04-01-2011 07:36PM

I watched RTE news today and for the first time i can remember a man stood under the spotlight put his hands up and said, "I messed up and I take full responsibility". And furthermore he is going to do his best to rectify the situation. He put everything on the line and it didn't work out yet it wasn't a reckless gamble (Celtic was earning 4 million at one stage). His humility contrasts to the many lying cheating c***s you hear on the radio/TV everyday.

I hope things work out for all concerned.

"Success in the affairs of life often serves to hide one's abilities, whereas adversity frequently gives one an opportunity to discover them."
- Horace

Liam Byrne · 04-01-2011 07:39PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Actually we will be taking on his debts. Allied Irish Banks is the main creditor, and the one who called in the receiver, and if memory serves me correctly AIB is in the process of being fully nationalised. Monies not raised by the sale of assets will be bad debts for AIB - and the taxpayer.

That is down to FF's (and AIB's) monumental cock-ups, though, not Yates'.

If FF hadn't decided to lumber us all with AIB's debts then we wouldn't be footing the bill.

Similarly, if someone who got an affordable mortgage has since lost their job and can't pay it back, that person should not be vilified just because FF decided to - according to Lenihan - "return AIB to its former glory".

HellFireClub · 04-01-2011 07:39PM

leeroybrown wrote: »

Some people on this thread seem to be forgetting that most sustainable businesses take a certain degree of risk and make bad decisions from time to time. The difference with Celtic Bookmakers and many of the other companies that are going under is that the huge global economic mess means that most of the normal recovery options aren't viable. At any time other than a deep recession most of these small/medium companies would would have the time to re-structure and stop making losses.

Upwards only rent reviews are something that the government should have tackled ages ago. They were supposed to but they've silently brushed it to one side as a sizeable percentage of these properties are already owned by either NAMA, encumbered by large bank loans that could go bad or owned by large companies that could go under.

Another major factor has probably been that these rents were negotiated when rents were at their peak, yet again, the greed that was the property market has caused massive job losses. Bad enough that the lease agreements were made back in the madness of the boom, but now someone in Ivan yates's position will have a landlord waving what was always an unsustainable lease agreement, in front of his face, looking for "surrender money", on what we all know now was a completely unsustainable rent figure.

The correct government response would have been to introduce emergency legislation to force landlords to renegotiate what we all now know were defective rent agreements, in that the market could never sustain these rents outside of a booming economy.

oppenheimer1 · 04-01-2011 07:55PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That is down to FF's (and AIB's) monumental cock-ups, though, not Yates'.

If FF hadn't decided to lumber us all with AIB's debts then we wouldn't be footing the bill.

Similarly, if someone who got an affordable mortgage has since lost their job and can't pay it back, that person should not be vilified just because FF decided to - according to Lenihan - "return AIB to its former glory".

I agree that its AIBs fault for getting itself into the mess it finds itself in, however I'm not going to derail this thread getting into the rights and wrongs of the bank nationalisation.

Ultimately there is little difference in a Bookmaker or housing developer who loses up to €6m of borrowed money.

Perhaps its worse though in Ivans case as he saw the downturn coming after the builders holidays in 2007, yet appears to have carried on regardless.

Someone who bought an affordable house but can't keep up the payments deserves about much sympathy as any borrower that can't make their repayments - none. Loss of income, should be taken into account when giving the commitment to repay.

In any case Ivan will be fine, he has that nice ministerial pension to fall back on. I don't expect to see him on a council housing list any time soon.

Ivan Yates - Celtic Bookmakers

Comments