Ivan Yates - Celtic Bookmakers

oppenheimer1

jmayo wrote: »

Please enlight us ?



You claim he has no right to pick holes in mcnamara's business plan so lets look at how similar they are.

mcnamara engaged in wreckless borrowing based on a completely bubble industry continuing as it had for the preceeding years.
mcnamara together with his political and banking buddies subverted a state owned quangoe into becoming a developer leaving the taxpayer with the attached risk (this was done long before NAMA ever came into being).
mcnamara's near 1 billion euro of gambles are not being covered by us the taxpayers.

As Yate's business has failed one could very easily say that he engaged in wreckless borrowing completely based on a bubble industry (Construction fuelled consumer credit bubble) that he expected to continue as it had in the years preceding 2007.

While the size of the sums is of course vastly different, the principle remains the same - ultimately one which AIB and the taxpayer will have to clean up.

HellFireClub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

As Yate's business has failed one could very easily say that he engaged in wreckless borrowing completely based on a bubble industry (Construction fuelled consumer credit bubble) that he expected to continue as it had in the years preceding 2007.

While the size of the sums is of course vastly different, the principle remains the same - ultimately one which AIB and the taxpayer will have to clean up.

But what do you do when your bank manager brings you out for lunch, values your business as 32 million and tells you that you are pre-approved for a large percentage of that valuation??? You are looking at him thinking that he's the expert on these things and that you are being negligent in not running with him... This is what AIB and BOI offer on their TV ads, business experts, enterprise experts in every branch, who know more about your business than you do. How do you react if your bank manager says you should lend or your competition might start taking your customers???

How would you react in that situation, don't forget, you own a business that you've slaved over for years, you have brought it to a place where you are making 4 mil a year, you don't want to start going backwards or losing market share, next thing you have your bank manager telling you that if you don't keep going and borrow big to "move onto the next phase", that you will start going backwards???

What do you do then???

oppenheimer1

HellFireClub wrote: »

But what do you do when your bank manager brings you out for lunch, values your business as 32 million and tells you that you are pre-approved for a large percentage of that valuation??? You are looking at him thinking that he's the expert on these things and that you are being negligent in not running with him... This is what AIB and BOI offer on their TV ads, business experts, enterprise experts in every branch, who know more about your business than you do. How do you react if your bank manager says you should lend or your competition might start taking your customers???

How would you react in that situation, don't forget, you own a business that you've slaved over for years, you have brought it to a place where you are making 4 mil a year, you don't want to start going backwards or losing market share, next thing you have your bank manager telling you that if you don't keep going and borrow big to "move onto the next phase", that you will start going backwards???

What do you do then???

You turn it down, because despite how tempting it may be, no one knows a business better than its directors - or at least should.

Of course one should always be looking to move onto the next phase in business development. The problem with Yate's business was he invested in bricks and mortar (uugh property rears its ugly head again!), rather than investing and expanding online, which now with hindsight one can see thats where the future of the business lay.

20Cent

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Someone who bought an affordable house but can't keep up the payments deserves about much sympathy as any borrower that can't make their repayments - none. Loss of income, should be taken into account when giving the commitment to repay.

If you can payback a loan without any income then you wouldn't have needed the loan in the first place.


Surprised at the vitriol aimed at Yates someone who was running a business employing a lot of people, he has behaved honorably the whole way through. Sad to see it go, even sadder that some seem happy at the prospect.

InchicoreDude

No he admitted on Six One that the failure to deploy an on-line betting capability within the business was one of the reasons why not only the business failed but also was part of why a merger wasn't possible. You can see easily enough why the likes of Paddy Power would look at Celtic and see a business that was based on an "old school", model that required shops on main streets, etc, all having to be staffed, when Paddy Power had moved on to be a leader in a national market, all run from an office block somewhere, it allowed for completely different economies of scale than could be pushed out of a business like Celtic with high street outlets all over the country.

I've seen a few businesses fail for this reason, technology moves along very fast these days and some business owners first of all don't have the lifetime exposure to internet technology even comprehend the fact that they need to move fast to deploy new internet technology within the business, then when it finally dawns on them, they lack the ability to manage the introduction of the new technology platform into the business in a cost efficient way...

I'm sad to see them closing but geez, how could somebody who claims to have so much knowledge in the betting industry not see that an online system is essential to any bookies now??? I have a choice, drive 10 minutes to put on a bet or the 30 seconds I can do it on my PC. Which would I pick??? Doesnt take an expert to know that such a business would eventually become unsustainable!
In fairness to Paddy Power, I think they are pretty innovative when it comes to online gambling with their poker and games and the like...

Surprised at the vitriol aimed at Yates someone who was running a business employing a lot of people, he has behaved honorably the whole way through. Sad to see it go, even sadder that some seem happy at the prospect.

I felt the same about Sean Quinn a while back.

oppenheimer1

20Cent wrote: »

If you can payback a loan without any income then you wouldn't have needed the loan in the first place.


Surprised at the vitriol aimed at Yates someone who was running a business employing a lot of people, he has behaved honorably the whole way through. Sad to see it go, even sadder that some seem happy at the prospect.

Vitriol? Can't see any of that here. Just offering the perspective that this business failure is really no different from a relatively small successful developer who sold apartments in 2007 at €4m profit, then taking on €6m loan and failing.

Really how many would have sympathy for the developer?

Indeed if it was a former FF minister whose bookie business went under, how many would be eulogising his failure?

paulaa

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Indeed if it was a former FF minister whose bookie business went under, how many would be eulogising his failure?

If he was a decent man I don't see why he wouldn't get the same sympathy.

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Vitriol? Can't see any of that here. Just offering the perspective that this business failure is really no different from a relatively small successful developer who sold apartments in 2007 at €4m profit, then taking on €6m loan and failing.

Really how many would have sympathy for the developer?

Indeed if it was a former FF minister whose bookie business went under, how many would be eulogising his failure?

If no-one bailed him out and the loan wasn't a ridiculuous amount and he wasn't swanning around in a Maybach shaking hands with TD frausters that facilitated his getting off, lots of people would.

sollar

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I'm sure he knew about the upward only clause in the rental agreement when he signed the contracts. If he wasn't happy about it then he shouldn't have signed it. No point moaning about it after the fact.

There is every point in the world moaning about it now. Its a terrible policy and needs changing. The more its in the public eye the better the chance it may be done away with.

People can't just ignore these things and hope it goes away on its own. Plenty of businesses are going to the wall in part due to this farce of a policy. Yates is a big name and should use his place in the public eye to challange it as strongly as he can.

Its just another way the elites can't lose out.

HellFireClub

sollar wrote: »

Its just another way the elites can't lose out.

That's exactly what it is...

oppenheimer1

sollar wrote: »

There is every point in the world moaning about it now. Its a terrible policy and needs changing. The more its in the public eye the better the chance it may be done away with.

People can't just ignore these things and hope it goes away on its own. Plenty of businesses are going to the wall in part due to this farce of a policy. Yates is a big name and should use his place in the public eye to challange it as strongly as he can.

Its just another way the elites can't lose out.

But there isn't any point in moaning about it, it is written in the lease and has nothing to do with the government. If business owners are unhappy with the leases they have it is up to them to renegotiate the leases. The government could ban the practice but that wouldn't apply retroactively so it would be pointless.

No business owner was forced to accept this clause, they have made their bed - they must lie in it. Complaining about it now is not the time - it was for times like these that landlords insisted on such a clause. They should have complained before signing - and refused to sign if the clause wasn't amended.

General General

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

According to the Irish Times - from a statement issued from the directors this afternoon

"A statement from the directors confirmed AIB had appointed Neil Hughes of Hughes Blake accountants as receiver. The 47 betting shops are immediately being put up for sale as a going concern, either as individual units or as one lot." - Irish Times

I didn't see the 6.01 news so I can't comment if he contradicted his statement earlier.

Shouldn't that be aib, given that they are undercapitalized?

oppenheimer1

General General wrote: »

Shouldn't that be aib, given that they are undercapitalized?

Touché

HellFireClub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But there isn't any point in moaning about it, it is written in the lease and has nothing to do with the government. If business owners are unhappy with the leases they have it is up to them to renegotiate the leases. The government could ban the practice but that wouldn't apply retroactively so it would be pointless.

No business owner was forced to accept this clause, they have made their bed - they must lie in it. Complaining about it now is not the time - it was for times like these that landlords insisted on such a clause. They should have complained before signing - and refused to sign if the clause wasn't amended.

It's a cartel. If you asked for the terms to be changed you'd be told to f*ck off. There is still a landed ascendency class in this country of property owners and there are all other businesses. This is why we cannot create our own jobs, the only way we can generate jobs is to pay multinationals to come here with their FDI and create the jobs for us.

Thankfully with the economic crash, there is now more opportunity for small businesses to get up and running without being pillaged by greedy property owners...

Tora Bora

I would definitely swallow the line that Ivan the not so terrible hasn't a single wrex put outside the reach of creditors. Not a chance in hell. That type of skullduggery is only for fianna failers. Wouldn't get a blue shirt doing a stroke like that.

aDeener

You know this is why I wouldn't trust FG to run the country, they'd just run it into the ground - no head for business.

cson

aDeener wrote: »

You know this is why I wouldn't trust FG to run the country, they'd just run it into the ground - no head for business.

What, more than the incumbents already have?

I have no affiliation to any particular party because to be quite honest there isn't one which I'd vote for but what you've posted qualifies for rolleyes -> :rolleyes:

westtip

It's little surprise Celtic has gone belly up. The high street cash bookmaker has his back to the wall.

Any serious punter is using on line (Betfair in particular), or just lifts the phone to any of the big boys. Serious punters also shop around for the very best prices and value, which menas the bookmaker margins are constantly under threat. Turnover on horse race betting is way down.

And there is the issue of supply and demand - the market had become saturated. Towns like Ballina has six cash bookmaking offices - there simply isn't the market for it. A shop can's survive with business rates, rents, staff and other overheads, which are considerable - license fees, TV fees, bonds etc, A dozen punters betting pennies on races on a Wednesday afternoon will not support your average shop - and if you have a run of favourites coming in at one of the big meetings it really can mean big trouble.

Plus cash bookmakers are absorbing betting tax in their turnover to compete with on line bookmakers.

Paddypower and Ladbrokes must have loss making shops they can absorb in their corporate mass but you might yet see other casualties - Boylessport or a few independents maybe.

I wouldn't open a cash bookmakers the overheads are just too high before you can even think of taking a profit. Betting exchanges are really killing the traditional bookmaking industry.

paulaa

I agree with you westtip. Just on the local news this morning that William Hill is closing their shop in New Ross.

Sleepy

TBH, it was to be expected. Most of the regular punters were lads working in the construction sector. If you're customers have no money, you have no custom.

TBH, Yates seems to be dealing with it all in a very transparent and dignified fashion. Given his (presumably well paid) position with Newstalk and ministerial pension, it would surprise me if some form of accomodation can't be reached to allow him to keep his family home and pay back his creditors over time.

gabsmol

last year on newstalk Ivan claimed he loves chinese gamblers as they gamble their lives away, well Ivan just gambled his life away and i fookin love it, Hope he s left with nothing the parasite.

paulaa

gabsmol wrote: »

last year on newstalk Ivan claimed he loves chinese gamblers as they gamble their lives away, well Ivan just gambled his life away and i fookin love it, Hope he s left with nothing the parasite.

What a true picture of the begrudgery and ignorance that is rife in this country this post is. At least he had a successful business for over 20 years and provided hundreds of jobs . What have you ever done ? Don't you feel any sympathy for his 200 employees who are now out of a job ? What a sad ugly attitude to have.

Grassroots_FF

And this was the man most Fine Gaelers wanted to lead their party 10 years ago:rolleyes:

kaiser sauze

Atilathehun wrote: »

I see Celtic Bookmakers have gone belly up.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0104/breaking31.html

In his statement Mr Yates said of the collapse of his business "we didn't see it coming" and "I acknowledge that the rapid expansion of the group in a few years left it vulnerable in a downturn"

Makes me laugh in one sense. Right here we have yet another media personality in the TV3 / Newstalk stables, preaching down their noses to the politicians, the unions, private sector employers, etc as to how things should have been handled over the past number of years.
The media personalities I refer to are Vincent Browne, George Hook and now Ivan Yates.
What do they have in common. They are all failed business men in their own rights, and yet think nothing of telling everybody else how the country should be run, and how it should have been run :cool::cool: FFS:rolleyes:

Oh, seriously, this just says it all.

They're ****, ****ers and assholes for taking a risk and losing. "Piss on them if I get the chance."

This country needs to get off its begrudging ass and start commiserating these people on taking a punt and while doing so we should be asking them when their next venture is!!

It will take several thousands of Brownes/Hooks/Yates to get this country back to full employment; it will take five to ten times that figure in startups to actually achieve this.

gandalf

You know it is really sickening reading the sheer glee that some posters are expressing on this thread at the prospect that 200+ people have lost their jobs. Celtic Bookmakers are joining a long list of companies that have hit the wall in the last year and like some of those companies they got overambitious when times were good. However like someone already pointed out business is about taking risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. At least Ivan Yates has not slinked away into the background and has faced the music with some form of decorum unlike an awful lot of the people who are still in politics in this country.

westtip

gandalf wrote: »

You know it is really sickening reading the sheer glee that some posters are expressing on this thread at the prospect that 200+ people have lost their jobs. Celtic Bookmakers are joining a long list of companies that have hit the wall in the last year and like some of those companies they got overambitious when times were good. However like someone already pointed out business is about taking risks and sometimes those risks don't work out. At least Ivan Yates has not slinked away into the background and has faced the music with some form of decorum unlike an awful lot of the people who are still in politics in this country.

+1 Ivan yates may not be everyones cup of tea - but he has not run off to the East Coast of the US and transferred his personal estate to his wife, nor have Celtic Bookmakers had a bailout from the Taxpayer amounting to billions of Euro, he lost sight of his business because he over expanded, at time the market shrunk, plus the fact that retail trade and small high street businsess (and his business was merely a collection of small high street retail businesses) are being crucified by high rates, high rents and high energy costs - the cost of doing business in a traditional high street setting are crippling. He should have been more cautious. Ask Alan Sugar about some of the failings within Amstrad, ask Richard Branson about failings within the Virgin Corporation. Ivan yates had too many eggs in one basket, if he had kept his betting "empire" to ten or so very profitable shops, and sold them at the right time to PP or ladbrokes we would all call him a business genius. He took his eye off the ball for a while, ok he has a ministerial pension to live off and he won't end up in the poor house, but he comes across as a man with integretiy and modicum of honesty - and as others have posted these two attributes are sadly lacking amongst most of the "entrepreneurs" spawned from the Septic Tiger years, not to mention the politicians who took backhanders from them in the tent.

jmayo

People like Ivan Yates appear to be a very rare breed in this country.
He made a decision to over expand at the wrong time and he did not push his business towards the on-line model, but he at least has a modicum of decency.
He holds his hands up and he is hoping to save as many of his staff's jobs as possible.

This morning I heard somehting that we never hear in this country, but thankfully is alive and well in another jurisdiction which is also on this island.

The boss of Northern Ireland Water, Laurence MacKenzie resigns.
This is the boss of a government owned organisation, like one of our semi states.


From their website...

We are a Government Owned Company (GoCo) – which is a statutory trading body owned by central government, but operating under company legislation, with substantial independence from government.

We have offices across Northern Ireland, with our Head Office based in Belfast. It takes 1400 people to deliver the water and wastewater services that Northern Ireland Water provides.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-12125850

Yourwellcum

The ultimate keyboard warriors rear their heads once more. A business goes under, a few hundred people will lose their jobs and there are people on here gloating.................................. WTF

No wonder we have all the problems we have in this country. We dont want people to succeed and when they do, we sit waiting for them to fail. Begrudgery of the highest order.

I feel sorry for him and for his workers who will now lose their jobs

paulaa

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

And this was the man most Fine Gaelers wanted to lead their party 10 years ago:rolleyes:

Like your heroes have done such a great job. :rolleyes:

Are you proud to support a party that have done more to destroy this country than 800 years of occupation ?

later12

This thread makes me despair of Ireland. I wish I could say that I don't think the level of predeliction towards laughing at people who sought success and stumbled on here was reflective of wider irish society, but it probably is.

Like is often said, in America failure in business is worn like a badge of honour. A business man will tell you how he failed 99 times before he succeeded. In Ireland it is something shameful, even Irish bankruptcy law is designed so that the individual lives with the conequences long after everyone else has forgotten about it. There is absolutely no understanding of the business spirit. I don't see how a country like that can ever re-build itself with such a poor attitude.