Ivan Yates - Celtic Bookmakers

HellFireClub

later10 wrote: »

This thread makes me despair of Ireland. I wish I could say that I don't think the level of predeliction towards laughing at people who sought success and stumbled on here was reflective of wider irish society, but it probably is.

Like is often said, in America failure in business is worn like a badge of honour. A business man will tell you how he failed 99 times before he succeeded. In Ireland it is something shameful, even Irish bankruptcy law is designed so that the individual lives with the conequences long after everyone else has forgotten about it. There is absolutely no understanding of the business spirit. I don't see how a country like that can ever re-build itself with such a poor attitude.

+100. Post of the decade, the amount of horrible Irish begrudgery here is sickening, extended in the most sense by smarmy armchair consultants who smugly sit back in their PAYE jobs, all kindly provided by people like Ivan Yates.

We've a long way to go yet in this country, it's no wonder the only hope for us on the jobs front is to import a "can-do" attitude by f*cking our IDA funds at people with a real entrepreneurial spirit in order to get their their FDI into Ireland.

Bluetonic

westtip wrote: »

Betting exchanges are really killing the traditional bookmaking industry.

That's not correct. Online bookmaking is killing traditional bookmaking. Traditional bookmaking is retail in the high street.

Betting exchanges are different to online bookmaking, both of which continue to grow year on year.

In fact for all but the seasoned gambler online bookmaking makes more sense than an exchange where commission, liquidity and a lack of value money specials disadvantage it to a certain degree.

danbohan

later10 wrote: »

This thread makes me despair of Ireland. I wish I could say that I don't think the level of predeliction towards laughing at people who sought success and stumbled on here was reflective of wider irish society, but it probably is.

Like is often said, in America failure in business is worn like a badge of honour. A business man will tell you how he failed 99 times before he succeeded. In Ireland it is something shameful, even Irish bankruptcy law is designed so that the individual lives with the conequences long after everyone else has forgotten about it. There is absolutely no understanding of the business spirit. I don't see how a country like that can ever re-build itself with such a poor attitude.

hear hear , an old irish american once told me that the worst of the irish stay in ireland , when you read some of the bile here you begin to think maybe he was right .

Atilathehun

fat__tony wrote: »

This thread has backfired a bit.

OP, you are a complete and utter mong.

Yes it has back fired. BUT the MONGS are the idiots who have gone off the subject.
My central point I wanted to make (but failed utterly) was the here was a guy, using his radio show to absolutely tear strips out of the politicians, builders, developers, bankers and buy to let investors, for getting themselves and the country into insane debt in the belief that the boom was never goingt to stop. Yates has torn many a FF'r apart for not seeing the crash coming. For not heeding the advice of many eminant economists, and so on and so on.

NOW WHAT has transpired ................... this gambler was on the very self same treadmill that the rest of the gob****es were on ........ in tw words OVER EXTENTION. By his own admission AIB called him in, saod look Ivan you are a brilliant guy, you have a brilliant business, it's worth €X million. You should borrow that valuation times 8. Here the cheque. Go out and expand.
Ivan swallowed the spoof hook line and sinker ............. and what was the outcome

In my book this fellow has NO CRED after this.
Tough on his employees though and I feel for them.

ONE more point ............. if he stayed away form NEWSTALK, and believing his own SPOOF, maybe just maybe, he would have kept a more close managerial eye on his business and SEEN IT COMING, in time to get out of the way of the run away train.

zig

Atilathehun wrote: »

Yes it has back fired. BUT the MONGS are the idiots who have gone off the subject.
My central point I wanted to make (but failed utterly) was the here was a guy, using his radio show to absolutely tear strips out of the politicians, builders, developers, bankers and buy to let investors, for getting themselves and the country into insane debt in the belief that the boom was never goingt to stop. Yates has torn many a FF'r apart for not seeing the crash coming. For not heeding the advice of many eminant economists, and so on and so on.

NOW WHAT has transpired ................... this gambler was on the very self same treadmill that the rest of the gob****es were on ........ in tw words OVER EXTENTION. By his own admission AIB called him in, saod look Ivan you are a brilliant guy, you have a brilliant business, it's worth €X million. You should borrow that valuation times 8. Here the cheque. Go out and expand.
Ivan swallowed the spoof hook line and sinker ............. and what was the outcome

In my book this fellow has NO CRED after this.
Tough on his employees though and I feel for them.

ONE more point ............. if he stayed away form NEWSTALK, and believing his own SPOOF, maybe just maybe, he would have kept a more close managerial eye on his business and SEEN IT COMING, in time to get out of the way of the run away train.

You could apply the same theory to every failed business that had expanded.
You cant compare the gambles of anglo and the property developers, and the complete lack of regulation by our Government to standard failed businesses. They are the ones Yates has a go at, not to mention the reaction, he is accepting responsibility, whereas some of these more wealthy developers are still floating around in their helicopters while we foot the bill.
Granted in theory we'll be probably footing the bill for some of Yates failures too, but he'll be putting everything he has in it first which is the key.

zig

later10 wrote: »

This thread makes me despair of Ireland. I wish I could say that I don't think the level of predeliction towards laughing at people who sought success and stumbled on here was reflective of wider irish society, but it probably is.

The majority of the posts are complimentary and defensive of Yates though so no need to despair.

Atilathehun

zig wrote: »

You could apply the same theory to every failed business that had expanded.
You cant compare the gambles of anglo and the property developers, and the complete lack of regulation by our Government to standard failed businesses. They are the ones Yates has a go at, not to mention the reaction, he is accepting responsibility, whereas some of these more wealthy developers are still floating around in their helicopters while we foot the bill.
Granted in theory we'll be probably footing the bill for some of Yates failures too, but he'll be putting everything he has in it first which is the key.

You are absolutely correct. 100%.
But of the many, many business people who expanded too quickly and failed as a result (in my view failed whilst daring greatly),how many had a five day week breakfast show on national air waves to tear other people apart who failed beacuse of the same issue.
We have all heard him give short shift to ordinary people who ran away with themselves a bit, and bought several properties and so on for the letting market. Those same people made the same mistake as Ivan.

That is the point im (failing) to make!

Fair play to Ivan for having a go. It failed. Too bad. He takes responsibility. Well done.
BUT, Ivan ............... don't castigate others who fell over the same door mat as yourself. Don't preach to the little people who went mad in the boom, when you yourself did the same. Don't know how many times you castigated people for irresponsibe borrowing, when you you were also at it!
Media double standards.

paulaa

zig wrote: »

The majority of the posts are complimentary and defensive of Yates though so no need to despair.

The problem, looking at the bigger picture, is that is usually a minority that holds a country back or destroys it altogether. That's a quote from a friend in the US I sent a link to this thread. He was surprised at some of the attitudes he read here as he thought Ireland had moved on from the bigotry and "pigs in the parlour" mentality as he put it

paulaa

Atilathehun wrote: »

You are absolutely correct. 100%.
But of the many, many business people who expanded too quickly and failed as a result (in my view failed whilst daring greatly),how many had a five day week breakfast show on national air waves to tear other people apart who failed beacuse of the same issue.
We have all heard him give short shift to ordinary people who ran away with themselves a bit, and bought several properties and so on for the letting market. Those same people made the same mistake as Ivan.

That is the point im (failing) to make!

Fair play to Ivan for having a go. It failed. Too bad. He takes responsibility. Well done.
BUT, Ivan ............... don't castigate others who fell over the same door mat as yourself. Don't preach to the little people who went mad in the boom, when you yourself did the same. Don't know how many times you castigated people for irresponsibe borrowing, when you you were also at it!
Media double standards.

Who better to talk about it than someone who was going through exactly the same thing.

Pat Kenny, Marian Finucane and Joe Duffy regularly talk about the outrageous salaries in the PS yet always fail to mention their own .

gabsmol

the world is a better place without his bookies and thank god he never got his wish to bring in slot machines. id rather exist with an unemployed person than a gambler,

later12

Uh, you know... the slot machines have already 'landed'. They've been here for years.

Fentdog84

HellFireClub wrote: »

+100. Post of the decade, the amount of horrible Irish begrudgery here is sickening, extended in the most sense by smarmy armchair consultants who smugly sit back in their PAYE jobs, all kindly provided by people like Ivan Yates.

We've a long way to go yet in this country, it's no wonder the only hope for us on the jobs front is to import a "can-do" attitude by f*cking our IDA funds at people with a real entrepreneurial spirit in order to get their their FDI into Ireland.

What dosent sit easily with me and a lot of people is that Ivan Yates is/was a politician turned bookie. If it were the other way round he may have more sympathy. let me explain this:
When he started Celtic Bookmakers, he was still a politician and most likely used his political connections and influence to give him a leg up in the business world. Bookmakers is a very difficult industry to break into at a large scale and make no mistake you would need some powerful connections to get any kind of a foothold in that door. A real enterpreneur in my eyes is somebody who starts from zero and builds their business up through their own hard work, business intuition and dedication. Yes Yates created a lot of employment through his enterprise but it all seemed to be built on quicksand and for me he didnt seem to be fully focussed on his business rather than courting his own media image. Look i hate to see anyone failing in business and people losing their jobs but along with the daily revelations of excess from the political classes I hold minimal sympathy for Yates who is in my eyes, just another an opportunistic shyster, which most bookies are in any case.

bitter

paulaa wrote: »

The problem, looking at the bigger picture, is that is usually a minority that holds a country back or destroys it altogether. That's a quote from a friend in the US I sent a link to this thread. He was surprised at some of the attitudes he read here as he thought Ireland had moved on from the bigotry and "pigs in the parlour" mentality as he put it

The Celtic Tiger was the classic "lipstick on a pig" mentality. Now it's back to the usual "put upon peasant" mentality of sneering at success & successful people. There is always a self-destruct mindset in Irish people and until that 'defect of character' is erased then Ireland will never progress the way it should.

dermo88

I have to sympathise with Ivan Yates, and compliment him on his honesty and decency in holding his hands up and taking responsibility. I hope that Karma rewards this conduct and he bounces back somehow.

I think the problem was an outdated business model. Internet bookmaking costs a lot of money to set up, and the expertise in the field is relatively scarce. The costs of advertising are very high also. I think this acted as a disincentive to Celtic Racing to change their business model.

High Street betting offices, generally have relatively poor and potentially risky working conditions, in terms of security.

The days of the High Street betting office are numbered. It is nice to have one as a social outlet, when it is next to a pub, and you can pop in and have a tenner on the horses / soccer over a few pints. But then, I could so all that online, with a broadband Internet connection and a debit card in the same pub, get the best price from a variety of International bookmakers, take all bets from the barman and his mates, give them a better price than the bookies next door, and gouge perhaps 1-2% extra for myself in the process. Once the volume is sufficient, its worth my while doing that.

BUT the average size of bet taken in High Street betting offices has declined over the years in real terms. This is particularly evident after the emergence of the Internet.

The advent of Betfair means that essentially, the lines between bookmaker and punter are blurred. The traditional old style bookmaker needs large reserves of cash capital to ensure against "Nuclear" scenarios such as Frankie Dettori's 'magnificent seven' at Ascot (28.09.1996). There also needs to be credit lines between small bookmakers and larger as lay off facilities, just like banking to an extent. There also needs to be decent expertise in risk control, bookmaking, sports. Which.....incidentally does not come cheap, and those who try doing bookmaking on the cheap, or take shortcuts will get their ar$es kicked.

Celtic was competing with a shrinking pie. In the early 1990's, chains of 3-5 betting shops were common enough in Ireland. These have been taken over by major congomerates, such as Paddy Power, William Hill, Ladbrokes whose reserves dwarf the likes of Celtic, and the average Irish Main Street can only support one betting office, taking 100,000 (Euro) a week, with 4 staff at 7% profit margin before expenses, rental and taxes.

The begrudging remarks are repulsive, and represent the worst of Irish begrudgery. But it sums up my somewhat cynical outlook on recent events and history. It may be flippant and a bit politically incorrect.

"You'll happily take the bastard rejects of Cuba, and pretend they are from Limerick, and let the best of Wexford leave and go to America"

Well.....one became the DeValera's and started Fianna Fail. The other.....the Kennedy's. The rest.....history.

Fat_Fingers

I see Ivan as someone who build his connections and used them when to start the business as he exited politics. Then he tried to get rich quick and failed. But why did he not concentrate on the business rather than pontificating on the radio? If he was 100% dedicated to running his business i think this would maybe not happened. Mind you, personal guaranties he gave are puzzling , either he’s very naive; inexperienced or just listened to the wrong advice. Or the buffer of ministerial pension clouded his judgment.

paulaa

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

I see Ivan as someone who build his connections and used them when to start the business as he exited politics. Then he tried to get rich quick and failed. But why did he not concentrate on the business rather than pontificating on the radio? If he was 100% dedicated to running his business i think this would maybe not happened. Mind you, personal guaranties he gave are puzzling , either he’s very naive; inexperienced or just listened to the wrong advice. Or the buffer of ministerial pension clouded his judgment.

Do you know the facts ?
Ivan started his bookmaking business 23 years ago, not in the last few years. His family had been in business for generations so he didn't need to build up anything.

His business was a family business and was also run by his son and wife , very capable people. Unless you think women can't run a business ?

Personal guarantees are very common particularly in family run businesses. I heard a figure of 1200 businesses quoted on the radio a few days ago, all family business which have gone to the wall in the last year and where personal guarantees were given.

Fat_Fingers

paulaa wrote: »

Do you know the facts ?
Ivan started his bookmaking business 23 years ago, not in the last few years. His family had been in business for generations so he didn't need to build up anything.

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know that. They way it failed then still smells of get rich quick.

His business was a family business and was also run by his son and wife , very capable people. Unless you think women can't run a business?

lol, You corrected some of my wrong assumption then you tell me that business is actually run by son and wife which i didn’t know and you follow that up with accusing me been chauvinist ?!?!? Where did that come from ?!

paulaa

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know that. They way it failed then still smells of get rich quick.


lol, You corrected some of my wrong assumption then you tell me that business is actually run by son and wife which i didn’t know and you follow that up with accusing me been chauvinist ?!?!? Where did that come from ?!

23 years is a long time to "get rich quick"

Did you miss the question mark at the end of my sentence ? Last time I looked a question is not an accusation.

Fat_Fingers

paulaa wrote: »

23 years is a long time to "get rich quick"

His family had been in business for generations

It’s the curse of the 3rd generation .
In Italy there is expression “ the first generation builds, the second generation maintains and the third generation destroys”

Did you miss the question mark at the end of my sentence ? Last time I looked a question is not an accusation.

Your original remark was completely uncalled for , backpedalling with sentence structures and grammar does not make it valid argument.

MidlandsM

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Or the buffer of ministerial pension clouded his judgment.

Fat Finger, you talk some amount of bollox. He only gets 48k pension, hardly a massive wedge to buffer millions of borrowings.:rolleyes:
ohhh, and yes, he's a bookie for 23years as you were rightly corrected.

flutered

as i am just back from sunnier climes i haqve not heard all that ivan yeats has said, my take on this is he opened shops ie expansion, very high overheads, a shrinking market, ie people out of work, if one looks at the results one has to notice that punters are only backing two horses in most races, a bookmaker is no longer a bookmaker, because he cannot make a book, there is no profit margain, quite a few on course bookmakers have given up their licences, settlers have taken wage cuts, expenses have still risen, until the online tax problem is rectified more of this is on the offing.

Fat_Fingers

MidlandsM wrote: »

Fat Finger, you talk some amount of bollox. He only gets 48k pension, hardly a massive wedge to buffer millions of borrowings.:rolleyes:
ohhh, and yes, he's a bookie for 23years as you were rightly corrected.

SO what is your point?!

23 years in business and then runs it into the ground. 23 years of experience not worth much then. Anyway, bid deal, we wouldn’t be talking about this if it wasn’t the Great Ivan himself. Roll you eyes as much as you want but he doesn’t sound like a great businessman as he makes himself to be when he’s on the radio pontificating and tearing people to shreds for exact the same. Turns out Ivan is the same as people he was so vocal about.

MidlandsM

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

SO what is your point?!

I made my point...that you talk bollox:D

Amhran Nua

Atilathehun wrote: »

Doesn't disguise the fact that greed represented by rapid and unsustainable expansion, was a big factor in the collapse.

I wouldn't be that quick to blame greed on businesses expanding too quickly. Its the natural train of thought for most people upon building a successful, profitable business to consider next how to continue building it. In this regard success can be more dangerous than failure, one of the most important lessons to learn about business, in that the operation gets overextended, then the projections don't quite come up to expectations, and you're left not with a profitable business on a grander scale, but a slew of obligations that can't be met.

It's kind of an amateur mistake, so I'm somewhat surprised that he went for it, but then again he's far from alone in that.