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Defection Dilemma - can't move on!

  • 03-01-2011 11:27AM
    #1
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    Not sure this is the right forum, but atheists seem to be the best informed on the whole defection process...! I'm really worried about this new situation where the Catholic Church has stopped issuing official defections to those who want them, because I really, really need some form of proof of having officially left Catholicism (which I thought I had plenty of time to complete...!!)
    My situation is that I'm converting to Judaism, and will require proof that I have left my former faith to do so successfully. What should I do?! Do you think a bishop could issue any kind of letter or...?! I feel like like I've been trapped :S


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Comments

  • #2
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Have you done anything so far - like written to the PP of the parish you were baptised in? That would be a first step at least.

    More info on the "suspension" here.

    Optional question: Why are you converting to Judaism? The God of the Old Testament gets a lot of stick around here (hypothetically of course). :pac:


  • #3
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    I was thinking about ringing instead- post seems so painfully slooooow... Always thought I'd plenty of time to do this, and hey ho, suddenly I'm not allowed leave anymore!

    And lol, I noticed...! :P I just really identify with the Jewish people, and also find the culture and traditions fascinating. Ever since the age of 9 I've been really interested, and since then I've learnt Hebrew, spent time working in Israel and whatnot. Just can't imagine life going any other way, basically


  • #4
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sefirah wrote: »
    I really, really need some form of proof of having officially left Catholicism
    You are not permitted to "leave" catholicism, since some of the basic tenets of catholicism assert that once you're a catholic, you can never stop being one. If you ask a priest, he'll tell you that there's an "ontological bond" that means you can never leave.

    The church can issue you with a document indicating that you no longer wish to be considered a member -- this is called an act of defection -- but that's a slightly different thing and that's what the countmeout website used to do up until the act of defection was abolished last year.

    You can contact the archdiocese of Dublin (if that's where you live) and they have said that they'll record the fact that you want to leave the church, but that's as good as you're going to get -- they won't let you defect, and they won't let you leave.
    Sefirah wrote: »
    My situation is that I'm converting to Judaism
    Have you checked the exit conditions on this before you join up? Far as I remember, in terms of life membership, most strands of judaism won't let you leave either (though I could be wrong, please correct me if so).
    Sefirah wrote: »
    I feel like like I've been trapped
    That's religion for you.


  • #5
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    Lol, I'll be pretty happy if they make me Jewish for life- after 3 years of living in an Orthodox community and studying with a Rabbi, I'd hope they would give me that much!!

    Even just to say I'm not a member would be sufficient- I just need a letter or documentation of some sort to say that I've at least done my best to disassociate myself from them as much as I possibly can


  • #6
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Get yourself excommunicated :)

    I suggest kicking a bishop up the arse as follows:

    1148443.jpg

    Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for injuries or legal issues that may arise as a result of you kicking someone in the arse


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  • #7
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    The only catch is: What if he enjoys it?


  • #8
    cavedave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,164 ✭✭✭cavedave


    robindch

    I really, really need some form of proof of having officially left Catholicism
    You are not permitted to "leave" catholicism, since some of the basic tenets of catholicism assert that once you're a catholic, you can never stop being one. If you ask a priest, he'll tell you that there's an "ontological bond" that means you can never leave.

    I thought denying the holy spirit resulted in excommunication? Or is that just from god not from his church?
    Sefirah
    Ever since the age of 9 I've been really interested, and since then I've learnt Hebrew, spent time working in Israel and whatnot. Just can't imagine life going any other way, basically
    Sorry this is of no particular relevance but as an adult does a Rabbi do the circumcision or do you have to go to a hospital and such?


  • #9
    5uspect
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    cavedave wrote: »
    Sorry this is of no particular relevance but as an adult does a Rabbi do the circumcision or do you have to go to a hospital and such?

    Reminds me of a particular nasty case a few years ago. :mad:


  • #10
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Sefirah wrote: »
    My situation is that I'm converting to Judaism, and will require proof that I have left my former faith to do so successfully. What should I do?! Do you think a bishop could issue any kind of letter or...?! I feel like like I've been trapped :S
    Difficult situation. Interestingly, one of the ways to get ex-communicated is, I believe, to show you have changed to another religion. How hung up on proof of defection is the Rabbi? Can you not explain that they do not do them any more and you can show them proof once you have changed?

    MrP


  • #11
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    cavedave wrote: »
    I thought denying the holy spirit resulted in excommunication? Or is that just from god not from his church?
    Excommunication just means that you're suspended temporarily from the club of believers, not that you're either permanently thrown out from the club, or that you stop being a catholic (though you would be an "unchurched" one who is not permitted to receive any "sacraments").
    cavedave wrote: »
    as an adult does a Rabbi do the circumcision or do you have to go to a hospital and such?
    sick_0.gif


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  • #12
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Sefirah wrote: »
    And lol, I noticed...! :P I just really identify with the Jewish people, and also find the culture and traditions fascinating. Ever since the age of 9 I've been really interested, and since then I've learnt Hebrew, spent time working in Israel and whatnot. Just can't imagine life going any other way, basically
    That all sounds very happy families, but do you believe it all to be true (and everything else false)?


  • #13
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    cavedave wrote: »
    Sorry this is of no particular relevance but as an adult does a Rabbi do the circumcision or do you have to go to a hospital and such?
    Since I'm a chick, I'd hazard a guess that this doesn't apply to me...!!
    MrPudding wrote: »
    Difficult situation. Interestingly, one of the ways to get ex-communicated is, I believe, to show you have changed to another religion. How hung up on proof of defection is the Rabbi? Can you not explain that they do not do them any more and you can show them proof once you have changed?
    He's a reasonable guy and I'm sure if I explain that I can't get full separation from the church because they won't let me, he'll understand. However, for full Israeli citizenship WITH the benefits of being a Jewish immigrant, I'll most definitely need to show I'm not Catholic and 100% Jewish. At that stage I'll have been converted for a year, so I guess I could prove my conversion to the church at that stage...
    robindch wrote: »
    Excommunication just means that you're suspended temporarily from the club of believers, not that you're either permanently thrown out from the club, or that you stop being a catholic (though you would be an "unchurched" one who is not permitted to receive any "sacraments").sick_0.gif
    FFS there's no winning, is there?
    Dades wrote: »
    That all sounds very happy families, but do you believe it all to be true (and everything else false)?
    I believe that it's right for me, makes my life happier and more fulfilling, and while I by no means take the bible literally and don't necessarily agree with every single tenant, at the end of the day... who cares? A big part of life is finding where you belong and what makes you a happier person, and for me that's being Jewish. It's a nation where I feel a strong sense of belonging, and in many ways they've become like a surrogate family to me. I enjoy the holidays, services and traditions and have a much stronger connection and sense of place in the Jewish community than I ever did in Catholic circles.


  • #14
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sefirah wrote: »
    FFS there's no winning, is there?
    Nope, religion will win 100% of the time. That's what religion has evolved to do.

    People and their fleeting emotions, thoughts and lives are nothing more than the social hardware that religious software uses to run itself.

    Understand that before you sign on the next dotted line.


  • #15
    GO_Bear
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭GO_Bear


    Dave! wrote: »
    Get yourself excommunicated :)

    I suggest kicking a bishop up the arse as follows:

    1148443.jpg

    Disclaimer: I take no responsibility for injuries or legal issues that may arise as a result of you kicking someone in the arse

    I realize that +1 posts are not allowed, but I think you should know that I spat up my beer all over my laptop in a fit of laughter at that post .... Thanks Dave .. you made my day and ruined my semester !


  • #16
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    GO_Bear wrote: »
    I realize that +1 posts are not allowed, but I think you should know that I spat up my beer all over my laptop in a fit of laughter at that post .... Thanks Dave .. you made my day and ruined my semester !
    Good to know I'm having an impact on the world :D


  • #17
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Sefirah wrote: »
    However, for full Israeli citizenship WITH the benefits of being a Jewish immigrant, I'll most definitely need to show I'm not Catholic and 100% Jewish. At that stage I'll have been converted for a year, so I guess I could prove my conversion to the church at that stage...

    Ah, so this is under the Law of Return I guess? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
    FFS there's no winning, is there?
    I imagine that the Palestinians would share that sentiment.


  • #18
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,384 ✭✭✭gbee


    If they won't let you leave try getting excommunicated? But now that I think on this, you remain a Catholic too, just denied mass and the sacraments.


  • #19
    28064212
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,104 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Sorry OP, but I created my own Church that everyone who's ever been born is a member of. No-one's allowed leave. Ever. So now you have two pointless organisations claiming you as a member that you "have" to disassociate yourself from. Tell your Rabbi that and he'll understand why any 'proof' you've left is meaningless

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  • #20
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    PDN wrote: »
    I imagine that the Palestinians would share that sentiment.

    Religion eh? What a crock of $hite it really is.


  • #21
    Knasher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    I would have thought your Rabbi would have been able to answer that question as I'd imagine its something he would encounter a lot with regards to weddings and the like.


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  • #22
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    PDN wrote: »
    Ah, so this is under the Law of Return I guess? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return
    Yes, it's one of the rights one gets.
    PDN wrote: »
    I imagine that the Palestinians would share that sentiment.

    In fairness, for the whole time I was working in Israel, my circle of friends contained Jews and Arabs alike- the Irish just like to see things very black and white. Arabs can win, and I've known many Arabs to be friends with Jews there, they just (both) need to put their political agendas aside. I can't speak on behalf of their political situation because I don't agree with everything that's done on either side. I'm not going there to subjugate or oppress anyone or because I'm a crazy Kananist freak- it's just much easier to live a Jewish lifestyle in a Jewish state.


  • #23
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Sefirah wrote: »
    Yes, it's one of the rights one gets..

    Yes, Cork people earning the right to return to their "ancestral homeland" in Israel. Very inclusive.
    Sefirah wrote: »
    In fairness, for the whole time I was working in Israel, my circle of friends contained Jews and Arabs alike..

    I'd imagine your cross community relationships are many and joyous.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67788355&postcount=49
    Sefirah wrote: »
    Arabs can win, and I've known many Arabs to be friends with Jews there, they just (both) need to put their political agendas aside. I can't speak on behalf of their political situation because I don't agree with everything that's done on either side. I'm not going there to subjugate or oppress anyone or because I'm a crazy Kananist freak- it's just much easier to live a Jewish lifestyle in a Jewish state.

    And to hell with the 20% that aren't Jewish, presumably.

    Theres an agreed "Jewish lifestyle" now? I didn't hear trumpets or newsflashes broadcast from loudspeakers.....


  • #24
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,627 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Sefirah wrote: »
    In fairness, for the whole time I was working in Israel, my circle of friends contained Jews and Arabs alike- the Irish just like to see things very black and white. Arabs can win, and I've known many Arabs to be friends with Jews there, they just (both) need to put their political agendas aside...
    As a matter on interest, is there any general feeling towards atheists or agnostics there? Are there any "interest groups" or are they just a quiet minority?


  • #25
    Gianna Miniature Steamer
    Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Gianna Miniature Steamer


    Nodin wrote: »
    Theres an agreed "Jewish lifestyle" now? I didn't hear trumpets or newsflashes broadcast from loudspeakers.....

    I'd say the particular cooking & eating habits and not being able to use lightswitches or do anything from friday sundown-sat sundown, etc, is part of a "lifestyle"


  • #26
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sefirah wrote: »
    I've known many Arabs to be friends with Jews there, they just (both) need to put their political agendas aside.
    No side will put away their political agendas as long as they're all claiming that their respective Stone, Bronze or Iron-Age religious texts legitimize their claims to the territories claimed by people who believe different religious texts.
    Sefirah wrote: »
    I can't speak on behalf of their political situation because I don't agree with everything that's done on either side. [...] it's just much easier to live a Jewish lifestyle in a Jewish state.
    I think you're going to have a pretty hard time separating the politic situation from the the lifestyle mandated by the strand of judaism that you're joining, particularly if that strand is one of the more extreme ones.

    If you're undecided about the politics and history of the region, or believe that you can avoid them, then I suggest grabbing something by Robert Fisk. His Pity the Nation (not about Israel, per se) is particularly insightful.


  • #27
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    TwoShedsJackson wrote: »
    Religion eh? What a crock of $hite it really is.

    No, what is a crock of $hite is when people discriminate against those who don't share their beliefs. That is depressingly common among human beings in general - with neither the religious nor the irreligious having a particularly inspiring track record.


  • #28
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    bluewolf wrote: »
    I'd say the particular cooking & eating habits and not being able to use lightswitches or do anything from friday sundown-sat sundown, etc, is part of a "lifestyle"

    And all Jews, be they orthodox, ultra-orthdox, secular, reformed, conservative and non-practicing uniformly observe these things?


  • #29
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    Dades wrote: »
    As a matter on interest, is there any general feeling towards atheists or agnostics there? Are there any "interest groups" or are they just a quiet minority?
    You'd be really surprised- for the 'Holy Land' I found it to be very secular, and the vast majority of Israelis are 'hilonim' and don't practice religion at all. I'd say about 95% if my Israeli friends fell into this category.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, Cork people earning the right to return to their "ancestral homeland" in Israel. Very inclusive.
    Jews are Jews all over the world, and I have as much of a right to be there as anyone born Jewish in any part of the world.
    Nodin wrote: »
    I'd imagine your cross community relationships are many and joyous.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67788355&postcount=49
    And I stand by every word of this-- this is what I saw-- perfectly happy Arabs attending the exact same clubs, universities, supermarkets, hospitals etc as any Israeli. Obviously, the Arabs I befriended weren't of the Islamist extremist variety- much like my Israeli friends, they were very middle of the road in regards to both religion and political views.
    Nodin wrote: »
    And to hell with the 20% that aren't Jewish, presumably.
    Presuming quite a lot, now aren't we? I'll have you know, the Christian population of Israel is growing at an even faster rate than their Jewish population and they're treated extremely well. I come across many non-Jews (quite a number working as soldiers in Jerusalem) and they were perfectly happy, and very much integrated into the country.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Theres an agreed "Jewish lifestyle" now? I didn't hear trumpets or newsflashes broadcast from loudspeakers.....
    Do you know anything about Judaism? Insofar as religions go, it's probably the most intrusive on one's lifestyle. Not being able to use electricity or drive from sundown Friday until Saturday night, needing to keep kosher (not only for meat, but milk products and whatnot) as well as being able to attend the synagogue by foot is no mean feat in Ireland. Ever try look for a job where you'll need to be home early on a Friday and have fast days off? Good luck there. Also, the incidents of synagogues being desecrated and Jewish people being intimidated is growing rapidly. How many other religions need huge gates and two security guards outside their place of worship on a weekly basis-- in DUBLIN of all places? Also, the opportunity to give ones children a Jewish education is almost impossible here- there's only one Jewish school and even then it's mostly non-Jews. Finding a Jewish partner is also a major concern, and there isn't a hell of a lot of choice in Ireland. Also, kosher food is EXTREMELY limited and expensive here. Israel is the one place that Jews can be Jews without being a minority and after all they've endured throughout the centuries, it's the least they deserve.
    robindch wrote: »
    I suggest grabbing something by Robert Fisk. His Pity the Nation (not about Israel, per se) is particularly insightful.
    No way- at a matter of principle. I yelled the guy down in UCC- he's incredibly biased and in my view and extremely poor journalist as a result.
    PDN wrote: »
    No, what is a crock of $hite is when people discriminate against those who don't share their beliefs.
    Israel's decision to allow Jews citizenship isn't discriminatory since a non-Jew can get citizenship too through the same process as one would go through when seeking citizenship of any other country.


  • #30
    Sefirah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 271 ✭✭Sefirah


    Nodin wrote: »
    And all Jews, be they orthodox, ultra-orthdox, secular, reformed, conservative and non-practicing uniformly observe these things?

    Obviously not every single person will be shomer shabbat and keep kosher, but why can't they be allowed the opportunity to do so? Especially as a convert, I intend to keep all of the following, and this is made extremely difficult in Ireland


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  • #31
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    PDN wrote: »
    No, what is a crock of $hite is when people discriminate against those who don't share their beliefs. That is depressingly common among human beings in general - with neither the religious nor the irreligious having a particularly inspiring track record.

    Hilarious coming from you with your track record of thread closures in the forum you moderate.


This discussion has been closed.
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