Defection Dilemma - can't move on!

robindch

^^^ Now, now, folks, no discussion of how other forums are moderated.

Doctor DooM

Mainly I am intrigued by the fact the OP has a user name which indicates Kabbalism.

Is this the particular branch you're interested in?

Dades

Sefirah wrote: »

You'd be really surprised- for the 'Holy Land' I found it to be very secular, and the vast majority of Israelis are 'hilonim' and don't practice religion at all. I'd say about 95% if my Israeli friends fell into this category.

Does that mean they don't follow the 'rules', i.e. the kosher business and Friday/Saturday sabbath rules etc? Doesn't that suggest Israel exists only as a cultural base, rather than a religious one?

Sefirah wrote: »

Jews are Jews all over the world, and I have as much of a right to be there as anyone born Jewish in any part of the world.

Since I'm officially a catholic, I must head to the Vatican to see if they can point me in the direction of a nice apartment overlooking St Peter's Square! Or is that not how independent states work? :pac:

PDN

Sefirah wrote: »

Israel's decision to allow Jews citizenship isn't discriminatory since a non-Jew can get citizenship too through the same process as one would go through when seeking citizenship of any other country.

Do you understand what discrimination means? Discrimination is where different groups of people are treated differently.

If some groups of people (say Christians, Muslims or atheists) are treated one way, but another group (Jews) get preferential treatment than that, by definition, is discrimination.

robindch

Sefirah wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

I suggest grabbing something by Robert Fisk. His Pity the Nation (not about Israel, per se) is particularly insightful.

No way - at a matter of principle. I yelled the guy down in UCC- he's incredibly biased and in my view and extremely poor journalist as a result.

You may not be aware of it, but Fisk maintains a dim view of pretty much every government and every leader in the Middle East, and blames them generally for the poor state of the countries they run and the miserable state of constant war, or preparedness for war, that pertains in the region. As the most western-leaning of the states in the Middle-East, Israel has a duty to adhere to western institutions, rules, laws, customs and standards of conduct and it doesn't constitute "bias" to point out that it does not.

It's sad to hear that you had to resort to shouting down Fisk in Cork. If that's the degree of passion that appears upon the peaceful banks of the Lee some ~2500 miles from Jerusalem, then as I said above, when in Israel, I think you're going to find it impossible to detach yourself from the disastrous and suicidal politics of the region.

Nodin

Sefirah wrote: »

Jews are Jews all over the world, and I have as much of a right to be there as anyone born Jewish in any part of the world..

...and in fact you've been given more "right to be there" than the Palestinians born there, but who were expelled. Great stuff.

Sefirah wrote: »

And I stand by every word of this-- this is what I saw-- perfectly happy Arabs attending the exact same clubs, universities, supermarkets, hospitals etc as any Israeli. Obviously, the Arabs I befriended weren't of the Islamist extremist variety- much like my Israeli friends, they were very middle of the road in regards to both religion and political views...

Sounds like all happy families and singing the equivalent of kumbaya my lord.

What about this however - these two aren't exactly beard- and burqa- clad warriors for Allah...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR2007121902681.html?hpid=topnews&sid=ST2007121902748

No mention of "Islamists" here either....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hebrew-arabic-mix-upsets-neighbors-1.231616
...or here.....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/rabbis-wives-urge-girls-not-to-date-or-work-with-arabs-1.333910
....or here....
http://www.haaretz.com/news/video-kiryat-gat-tells-its-school-girls-no-romancing-with-bedouin-1.248771
..or here....
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/un-rights-panel-slams-israel-over-treatment-of-bedouin-1.8696

Sefirah wrote: »

Presuming quite a lot, now aren't we? I'll have you know, the Christian population of Israel is growing at an even faster rate than their Jewish population and they're treated extremely well....

Presuming they aren't Arabs, I suppose.

Or messianic Jews.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3558795,00.html

Sefirah wrote: »

I come across many non-Jews (quite a number working as soldiers in Jerusalem) and they were perfectly happy, and very much integrated into the country.....

And if they're bedouin, they might return home to find their home has been so well integrated, its disappeared into the ground of the Negev....

Sefirah wrote: »

Do you know anything about Judaism? ......

Yes.

Sefirah wrote: »

How many (.........)all they've endured throughout the centuries, it's the least they deserve.
......

Funny, the general sense of that - 'its hard to live in the light' - is something I've heard from people who've joined some Pentacostalists, members of the Jehovahs Witnesses, Seventh Day adventists and a shower called "The Way international". They reckon they're persecuted as well. They're ok with it though, as they're sure Gods chosen them too.

Sefirah wrote: »

No way- at a matter of principle. I yelled the guy down in UCC-......

You go Girl. I'd say that put him in his place.

Sefirah wrote: »

Israel's decision to allow Jews citizenship isn't discriminatory since a non-Jew can get citizenship too through the same process as one would go through when seeking citizenship of any other country.

So theres no commitment to "maintaining a jewish majority" by all the major parties or block on the return of Palestinians then....?

recedite

Sefirah wrote: »

Jews are Jews all over the world, and I have as much of a right to be there as anyone born Jewish in any part of the world.

Yes, it suits you if the immigration authority is sectarian, but not racist.

Sefirah wrote: »

Israel's decision to allow Jews citizenship isn't discriminatory since a non-Jew can get citizenship too through the same process as one would go through when seeking citizenship of any other country.

LOL - What chance would a muslim from Yemen have?

Sefirah has a point that secular arabs or Palestinians can do quite well in Israel, better than the average person in neighbouring territories like Gaza and Egypt. But this is all jew to the fact that Israel is in reality more progressive and less religious than its neighbours, and is also a big recipient of US foreign aid.
The settlers who squeezed out Native Americans and Australian Aborigines had a similar argument; that their culture was more progressive than the one it replaced, and some of the more compliant natives would be able to share in "the benefits".

PDN

recedite wrote: »

Sefirah has a point that secular arabs or Palestinians can do quite well in Israel, better than the average person in neighbouring territories like Gaza and Egypt. But this is all jew to the fact that Israel is in reality more progressive and less religious than its neighbours,

I wonder. A deliberate pun or a Freudian slip?

Dave!

lol... nice

HellFireClub

Here's a loophole for you OP, the Catholic Church forbids Catholics to be members of the Freemasons, under threat of excommunication. You could see if the Freemason's will let you join and then write to the Bishop of your diocese and inform him that you wish to be excommunicated due to your membership of the Masons. It's not a quickfit solution but in theory it is possible!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

liamw

HellFireClub wrote: »

Here's a loophole for you OP, the Catholic Church forbids Catholics to be members of the Freemasons, under threat of excommunication. You could see if the Freemason's will let you join and then write to the Bishop of your diocese and inform him that you wish to be excommunicated due to your membership of the Masons. It's not a quickfit solution but in theory it is possible!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_ban_of_Freemasonry

It's not that easy to join the FreeMasons.

http://www.wikihow.com/Join-Freemasonry

HellFireClub

liamw wrote: »

It's not that easy to join the FreeMasons.

http://www.wikihow.com/Join-Freemasonry

Well it starts with applying to join and thereafter, the process is out of your hands really, but once you are of good intention and character, there is no real reason why your application should not proceed.

liamw

HellFireClub wrote: »

Well it starts with applying to join and thereafter, the process is out of your hands really, but once you are of good intention and character, there is no real reason why your application should not proceed.

True, it just seems like a lot of effort. But the OP seems to have more reasons than most to be excommunicated.

keppler

Sefirah wrote: »

Do you know anything about Judaism? Insofar as religions go, it's probably the most intrusive on one's lifestyle. Not being able to use electricity or drive from sundown Friday until Saturday night, needing to keep kosher (not only for meat, but milk products and whatnot) as well as being able to attend the synagogue by foot is no mean feat in Ireland. Ever try look for a job where you'll need to be home early on a Friday and have fast days off? Good luck there. Also, the incidents of synagogues being desecrated and Jewish people being intimidated is growing rapidly. How many other religions need huge gates and two security guards outside their place of worship on a weekly basis-- in DUBLIN of all places? Also, the opportunity to give ones children a Jewish education is almost impossible here- there's only one Jewish school and even then it's mostly non-Jews. Finding a Jewish partner is also a major concern, and there isn't a hell of a lot of choice in Ireland. Also, kosher food is EXTREMELY limited and expensive here. Israel is the one place that Jews can be Jews without being a minority and after all they've endured throughout the centuries, it's the least they deserve.

Ok........and you want to become a Jew because????

Sefirah

Sefirah wrote: »

Y
Do you know anything about Judaism? Insofar as religions go, it's probably the most intrusive on one's lifestyle. Not being able to use electricity or drive from sundown Friday until Saturday night, needing to keep kosher (not only for meat, but milk products and whatnot) as well as being able to attend the synagogue by foot is no mean feat in Ireland. Ever try look for a job where you'll need to be home early on a Friday and have fast days off? Good luck there. Also, the incidents of synagogues being desecrated and Jewish people being intimidated is growing rapidly. How many other religions need huge gates and two security guards outside their place of worship on a weekly basis-- in DUBLIN of all places? Also, the opportunity to give ones children a Jewish education is almost impossible here- there's only one Jewish school and even then it's mostly non-Jews. Finding a Jewish partner is also a major concern, and there isn't a hell of a lot of choice in Ireland. Also, kosher food is EXTREMELY limited and expensive here. Israel is the one place that Jews can be Jews without being a minority and after all they've endured throughout the centuries, it's the least they deserve.

That's why a lot of jewish people here move to the UK at least for a while, there is a large community there.

PDN

liamw wrote: »

True, it just seems like a lot of effort. But the OP seems to have more reasons than most to be excommunicated.

They haven't because, as Robin has pointed out, excommunication does not stop you being a Catholic.

Sefirah

bluewolf wrote: »

That's why a lot of jewish people here move to the UK at least for a while, there is a large community there.

Moving to the UK is an improvement on Ireland, for sure, but it’s no Israel, and is still very much geared towards Christian-living.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Mainly I am intrigued by the fact the OP has a user name which indicates Kabbalism.

Is this the particular branch you're interested in?

Actually, when I first started the conversion process, I asked the hazzan (or ‘cantor’, who is the person who sings the service and whatnot) if it was necessary to learn about kabbalism and his answer was “Yeah, sure, go nuts, and while you’re at it, hop back on your magic carpet and fly away” :P – so I’m guessing it doesn’t have too much standing among some Orthodox circles! It’s a really interesting part of Judaism, and pretty complex – they talk about the most minute of details and things which ‘normal’ religion would otherwise gloss over, so it’s a really unique insight. Some Jews are big into it, but others have decided that it’s either too ‘out there’ or has been taken over by the likes of Madonna and has lost its original attraction. Some of it is really fascinating, but other parts are way too tedious and go right over my head, but it’s definitely an interesting aspect of Judaism.

Dades wrote: »

Does that mean they don't follow the 'rules', i.e. the kosher business and Friday/Saturday sabbath rules etc? Doesn't that suggest Israel exists only as a cultural base, rather than a religious one?

No, Israel exists as a place that Jews from all walks of life and from all different levels of observance can have the opportunity to be as religion or as downright atheist as they please. It’s not like an Islamist state where religion is forced on people- it’s take it or leave it, but one needs to cater to those who ARE observant if they’re to be fair. Also, Israel is the home of many Jews who have been really mistreated and persecuted in their countries of origin, and to those who abuse them, their level of religiosity is completely irrelevent.

Dades wrote: »

Since I'm officially a catholic, I must head to the Vatican to see if they can point me in the direction of a nice apartment overlooking St Peter's Square! Or is that not how independent states work?

Because the Vatican is the only place on earth where there is a Catholic majority and the Catholic faith is catered for, is it? Or are you confusing homelands with sites of religious significance?

PDN wrote: »

Do you understand what discrimination means? Discrimination is where different groups of people are treated differently.

If some groups of people (say Christians, Muslims or atheists) are treated one way, but another group (Jews) get preferential treatment than that, by definition, is discrimination.

Then gee whiz, I know a hell of a lot of women who are being discriminated against since they’re given maternity leave and loads of handicapped people also being discriminated against with the providing of ramps- pfft! All this preferential treatment is simply outrageous!

robindch wrote: »

It's sad to hear that you had to resort to shouting down Fisk in Cork.

What basically happened was that he refused to acknowledge that rockets were fired into Israel from Gaza, instead referring to them as ‘little bombs’ and he continually belittled the fact that Israelis suffer in this conflict too. He then went on to compare Israelis to Nazis, which is unfortunately a tactic which is being widely employed and completely abuses the holocaust to serve his own agenda. To me, that’s just pathetic and I find it hard to have any respect for the man.

Nodin wrote: »

...and in fact you've been given more "right to be there" than the Palestinians born there, but who were expelled. Great stuff.

Let’s ignore the fact that in many instances, Arabs sold their land to Jews. Let’s also ignore the fact that you could technically class a number of Jews as being ‘Palestinian’ because they were there before the creation of the state of Israel. Let’s also ignore the fact that these ‘Palestinians born there, but who were expelled’ appear to still be living in Israel and taking up positions in the Knesset (Parliament) and as judges, army commanders and high ranking officials.
Now- much more easy, huh?

Nodin wrote: »

So theres no commitment to "maintaining a jewish majority" by all the major parties or block on the return of Palestinians then....?

A ‘return of the Palestinians’ basically means a complete end to the Jewish state, so it’s obviously not on the cards. Also, may I ask where the ‘Right to Return’ is for the 50% of Israeli Jews who themselves or their family have fled Muslim countries?


To Nodin’s post – Jews not wanting Arabs to live in their neighbourhoods in many instances boils down to the fact that many of the neighbourhoods they’re being rejected from do so because they’re founded on the basis of traditional Jewish values and having non-Jews driving through their area and desecrating the Sabbath basically pisses them off, and this isn’t the kind of community they wish to have. Jews exclude other Jews from living in their areas too because of this- there are many Kibbutzim which will refuse entry to Jews they deem not to be religious enough to live in their area because they want to preserve the character of their neighbourhood. Take from that what you will.
As for relationships between Arabs and Jews- go figure, there are plenty ignorant people out there who simply like to meddle in other peoples’ lives and tell them how to behave.
Obviously when one tries to amalgamate together two different cultures and people with a lot of political animosity, there will be conflict and discrimination- but discrimination against minorities is an issue that pretty much every single country in the world battles with, and in comparison to their neighbours in Egypt and how they’re managing with their Coptic Christian minority, I think Israel is doing pretty damn well for itself.
The issue with Messianic Jews is that they not only try to convert Jews to their religion (and any form of proselytising is illegal in Israel- to or from any religion) but they are known to prey on people who are disadvantaged and vulnerable. Jewish tradition has struggled to survive in exile, so I fully understand why people would be angry at others trying to convert them and force their beliefs on others under the false pretence that this is still ‘Judaism’ within their own homeland. http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/475_messianic_congregati.htm
As for Bedouins- I highly recommend reading “A Shepherd’s Journey”, written by Bedouin Ishmael Khaldi in which he describes how he went from growing up a poor shepherd living in a tent to becoming one of the highest ranking officials in the Israeli Defence forces, later receiving a position as advisor to the minister of foreign affairs Avigdor Lieberman. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_Khaldi

recedite wrote: »

LOL - What chance would a muslim from Yemen have?

Seeing as how Yemen considers Israel an enemy state and vise versa, and also the fact that Israelis aren’t allows to enter Yemen (or even anyone with an Israeli stamp on their passport) , this is a no brainer. They might as well wave banners with ‘come blow us up’.

keppler wrote: »

Ok........and you want to become a Jew because????

I love it

On that note, I believe I have had my ORIGINAL question answered (kick Bishop up the ass, or send him a letter, but preferably to try the latter first) and many thanks for all the responses! While I’m sure that some are eager to argue further about Jews and Arabs and whatnot and I’m certain we could easily go back and forth for a dozen pages, I’d rather pass, as I’ve been having this argument for the past 5 years and as one could guess it gets RATHER old VERY fast.

Zillah

This is so weird.

Dades

Tentatively closing this thread as the OP has gotten an answer, and has expressed a wish to not participate in a protracted debate in her own thread.

If anyone has any further advice regarding the original question, PM me or the OP.

Lastly, there's a "New Thread" button for anyone who has a starting point for a new Middle Eastern discussion.