Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

Alphyra · 16-12-2010 07:06PM

Thankfully the European court has ruled against our total ban on it !

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/abortion.html

philologos · 16-12-2010 07:14PM

This ruling as far as I know only had to do with abortions in exceptional circumstances. It as far as I know isn't advocating abortion-by-choice.

prinz · 16-12-2010 07:18PM

Alphyra wrote: »

Thankfully the European court has ruled against our total ban on it !
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/abortion.html

Read the thread..

ninebeanrows · 16-12-2010 07:18PM

It is interesting debate.

I personally would be in favour of Choice upto a certain extent of pregnancy.

And don't go into the foetus is alive from conception thing. I understand it all the debate.

Say Pro-choice for upto 6 weeks of pregnancy.

How many fetuses are lost up to this stage anyway? Unbeknown at times to the women.

There is more to gain from pro-choice than having no choice at all.

I do think if there was a referendum today it would be very close but i still think the fear instilled by the Catholic Church would hold too much resonance and it would fail by 55-45 or something like that.

philologos · 16-12-2010 07:24PM

So because people die anyway we shouldn't feel bad about killing? - This when applied to anything but pro-life issues would seem barbaric.

MagicSean · 16-12-2010 07:28PM

Alphyra wrote: »

Thankfully the European court has ruled against our total ban on it !

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1216/abortion.html

We don't have a total ban. The courts didn't change anything. They ruled that the country hasn't implemented our constitution properly.

Jester Minute · 16-12-2010 11:09PM

The Irish people have no appetite for abortion. I've examined each of the three cases, A,B, and C, and none of them had any grounds.

The woman, C, had no grounds whatsoever for an abortion. Current Irish law allows for her to be treated, should her cancer have returned, even if she was pregnant, and even at risk to the unborn child.

What she wanted to do was to kill the child directly just because.There was no medical need for that.

Nodin · 16-12-2010 11:13PM

Jester Minute wrote: »

The Irish people have no appetite for abortion. I've examined each of the three cases, A,B, and C, and none of them had any grounds. ..........................

O.

Well, You better ring up the Supreme Court, the EU Court and the rest and tell them that You Have Spoken, and that they should stop their nonsense forthwith.

Demonique · 16-12-2010 11:14PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Didnt we have a referendum on this issue?

The government didnt decide this it was decided by an electoral majority in Ireland.

By the way isnt killing an unborn a viloation of Human rights. Or is that different somehow?

What's a viloation? It sounds like some sort of sex act

Sofiztikated · 16-12-2010 11:14PM

Wait, does this mean the EU forced abortions are coming in!?!:eek:

I don't think I can could handle an abortion. What with my having a penis and that.

:pac:

Nodin · 16-12-2010 11:16PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Wait, does this mean the EU forced abortions are coming in!?!:eek:

I don't think I can could handle an abortion. What with my having a penis and that.

:pac:

Especially the One Euro Shop coathanger special. The last thing my friend Hirohito needs is his eyesight affected.

Jester Minute · 16-12-2010 11:16PM

Nodin wrote: »

O.
Well, You better ring up the Supreme Court, the EU Court and the rest and tell them that You Have Spoken, and that they should stop their nonsense forthwith.

I'd have thought the Irish people had just about their fill of Europe. I'm in the north of Ireland, but I've had my fill of Europe. They wreak your country and now they want to kill your children. After years of being dominated by the British, are the Irish happy to have Europe impose itself on them?

Anyway, there would be uproar if abortion was introduced. That seems obvious to me.

Demonique · 16-12-2010 11:21PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

Well I firmly believe that the baby has a right to life. If you don’t want to keep a baby there are plenty of loving couples out there dying to have children that cannot. I myself was born to a single mother in 1980, if abortion had been socially acceptable back then I may not have been here. Yes it is hard being pregnant for 9 months. I have a daughter myself. But why not put yourself out for nine months and give the baby a life through adoption if you do not want it. I agree in extreme medical cases were the mother’s life is endangered that abortion should be allowed. But it should not be allowed for women who find themselves inconveniently pregnant ‘and emotionally not able’ that is a cop out. Get up and get over it and if you cannot cope with a baby give another family a chance at happiness. My sister is currently undergoing fertility treatment for blocked tubes and the heartbreak she has endured for years trying to conceive breaks my heart. She would be a wonderful mother . I am a mother, when I held my baby in my arms the thought of anyone or anything harming her made me physically ill. I do not believe that the aborted baby does not feel the pain of dying. You can all dress it up how you like with medical jargon but can you all be sure that tiny baby slumbering in its mother’s womb does not feel the pain of being extracted .

There are plenty of children already in the adoption system that those couples could adopt but are too selfish to do so as they want a cyute widdle baybee. Pregnant women aren't broodmares for the infertile

Wait, so because your sister can't conceive other women shouldn't have the right to decide their own reproduction choices.

Nodin · 16-12-2010 11:21PM

Jester Minute wrote: »

I'd have thought the Irish people had just about their fill of Europe. I'm in the north of Ireland, but I've had my fill of Europe. They wreak your country
.......................
.

No, you'll find that was 100% Irish citizens....

Jester Minute wrote: »

.........and now they want to kill your children...........
.

Actually, they said 'legislate based on your own Supreme court decision', the mad feckers.

Jester Minute wrote: »

Anyway, there would be uproar if abortion was introduced. That seems obvious to me.

Abortion under limited circumstances was introduced about 17 years ago, going on memory.

Demonique · 16-12-2010 11:28PM

smk89 wrote: »

Considering most people using this forum are male, <25 and agnostic/atheist they may not represent the country as a whole. Personally I have a cup of tea in one hand and am waiting for the inevitable comparison to nazies to begin.

Female, 32, raised Catholic...

...Kick the Pope in the goolies

marco_polo · 16-12-2010 11:29PM

Jester Minute wrote: »

The Irish people have no appetite for abortion. I've examined each of the three cases, A,B, and C, and none of them had any grounds.

The woman, C, had no grounds whatsoever for an abortion. Current Irish law allows for her to be treated, should her cancer have returned, even if she was pregnant, and even at risk to the unborn child.

What she wanted to do was to kill the child directly just because.There was no medical need for that.

I have examined zero of the cases in any detail whatsoever, but I am fairly sure the decision in the third case had absolutely nothing to do with the legality of undergoing cancer treatment while pregnant, and everything to do with the absense of any legal framework to fro the woman to determine whether she had are medical grounds for an abortion or not

marco_polo · 16-12-2010 11:33PM

Jester Minute wrote: »

I'd have thought the Irish people had just about their fill of Europe. I'm in the north of Ireland, but I've had my fill of Europe. They wreak your country and now they want to kill your children. After years of being dominated by the British, are the Irish happy to have Europe impose itself on them?

Anyway, there would be uproar if abortion was introduced. That seems obvious to me.

Have one of these instead.

Demonique · 16-12-2010 11:34PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

Where do we draw the line do we allow abortions at 20 weeks
have you actually seen a scan of the development of a baby at 4 months (Yes its a baby not a fetus)
At the end of 4 months:Fetus is 6-1/2 to 7 inches long
Weighs about 6 to 7 ounces

Fetus is developing reflexes such as sucking and swallowing. Fetus may begin sucking his/her thumb
Tooth buds are developing

Sweat glands are forming on palms and soles

Fingers are well defined

Sex is identifiable

Skin is bright pink, transparent and covered with soft, downy hair

Although recognizably human in appearnace, the baby would not be able to survive outside the mother's bod

Can't survive outside the women's womb, abortion should be legal at that point

As to the rest, don't really give a s***

jimmycrackcorm · 16-12-2010 11:41PM

Abortions are like dying Africans in a famine disaster. Unless you can see it on tv it doesn't count

Demonique · 16-12-2010 11:43PM

Sulmac wrote: »

Saw that in school myself; an awful video which if anything made me less sympathetic to the pro-life cause because of the tactics they use.

Saw it a couple of years ago, made me go meh

fryup · 16-12-2010 11:46PM

have any Youth Defence nutters sabotaged this thread yet??

Star Bingo · 17-12-2010 12:04AM

my special purpose is in danger of bein devalued once again? sucks being a european state. lets just all have sex for the hell of it, eh? sure if you forget your pope endorsed johnny there's always the.. claw of death.

we save children around here, not murder em. not for the sake of some.. philanderer

17-12-2010 12:24AM

Wazdakka wrote: »

Fundamental mistake of most of the "Pro-Life" side.
It's not necessarily in favour of abortion.. It's being in favour of giving women the choice.

The verb "to choose" is transitive; i.e., it needs an object in order to make sense. The object in this case is abortion.

Someone said earlier that they don't believe "pro-choice" equals "pro-abortion". It's useful to create an equation to understand why it does. (Note: not my idea - I was never the best at Maths!)

People with a "pro-life" viewpoint see keeping the baby and giving it up for adoption as the two morally right decisions to take. Both involve giving birth.

People with a (for the sake of argument) "pro-choice" viewpoint also hold the above two as valid choices and hold up abortion as a third. We all understand that abortion is the ending of a human life (because the zygote/embryo/foetus possesses the DNA of a human being and is alive). We won't go into the dissent about cut-off points for aborting an infant's according to how far along in the gestation process he/she is. If one is for abortion in any case, then that person is more "pro-choice" than someone who is "pro-life".

The equations:
"Pro-life" = pro(keeping baby) OR pro-adoption
"Pro-choice" = pro(keeping baby) OR pro-adoption OR pro-abortion

We cross out what the two have in common...
"Pro-life" = pro(keeping baby) OR pro-adoption
"Pro-choice" = pro(keeping baby) OR pro-adoption OR pro-abortion

[So, the thing that makes a "pro-choice" position different from a "pro-life" one is that the former sees abortion as a right/justified.]

Therefore, [because there is nothing else to separate the two viewpoints,] we can say that
"Pro-choice" = pro-abortion

The choice in question equates to abortion.

rossie1977 · 17-12-2010 12:28AM

donfers wrote: »

I'm sorry but that's simplistic, naive, populist, cliched and plain wrong

What if a woman plies herself full of drugs? you ok with that? or pimps herself out as a prostitute? you ok with with that?

No one person is forcing their views/morals on another person.

there are concepts out there called "law" and "society" and "civilisation" that mean we can't do whatever we want with our own bodies

again its not my place or yours to question if a woman fills herself with drugs or if she becomes a prostitute, society sees nothing wrong with a woman sitting at a bar all day drinking until she cannot stand and then going home with a stranger, him riding her while she is unconscious, thats fine

we live in a strongly conservative christian country where many laws were based on antiquated morals of the catholic church (to say otherwise is wrong), up until recently (last 20 years) it was illegal in this country to be gay, up until recently it was illegal in this country to sell playboy, up until recently it was illegal to sell condoms, the book Ulysses only became unbanned ten 10 years, the film exorcist was banned here, we have a f**king blasphemy law

we in this country love to berate those far away muslim countries where women and mens freedoms are non-existent but we are as backward here in many areas

orourkeda · 17-12-2010 12:29AM

marco_polo wrote: »

I have examined zero of the cases in any detail whatsoever, but I am fairly sure the decision in the third case had absolutely nothing to do with the legality of undergoing cancer treatment while pregnant, and everything to do with the absense of any legal framework to fro the woman to determine whether she had are medical grounds for an abortion or not

Were there actually medical grounds for this abortion or was it a precautionary measure? If there were legitimate grounds what were they?

As I understand it a woman can only have an abortion in Ireland if there is a direct threat to her life. If this wasnt the case why did take the case?

Star Bingo · 17-12-2010 12:30AM

see my issue would be if you become too embroiled in the technicalities you lose sight of the fundamentals n the emotional aspect. a bit like casual sex

Sardonicat · 17-12-2010 12:33AM

It's possible to be personally against abortion yet respect the right of another person to have an abortion. This would be my stance and I regard myself pro-choice. It's (abortion) not a choice I would like to make but that doesn't mean I have the right to impose that on anyone else.

17-12-2010 12:35AM

By the way, regardless of which side uses them, insults are never going to help. Abortion is one of the most serious, if not the most serious, of issues today because it concerns human life and death, and those who argue for abortion find it important for other reasons. However, verbally abusing those who disagree or who have shown their disagreement through various actions does not bring back any of the dead infants who have variously received fatal injections, been sucked into a tube, disembodied, and/or decapitated. Nor will it get anyone extra rights.

Sardonicat · 17-12-2010 12:36AM

rossie1977 wrote: »

the book Ulysses only became unbanned ten 10 years,

What? I've had a copy for well over 20 years! (and, no, of course I haven't actually read it!)

orourkeda · 17-12-2010 12:38AM

rossie1977 wrote: »

again its not my place or yours to question if a woman fills herself with drugs or if she becomes a prostitute, society sees nothing wrong with a woman sitting at a bar all day drinking until she cannot stand and then going home with a stranger, him riding her while she is unconscious, thats fine

we live in a strongly conservative christian country where many laws were based on antiquated morals of the catholic church (to say otherwise is wrong), up until recently (last 20 years) it was illegal in this country to be gay, up until recently it was illegal in this country to sell playboy, up until recently it was illegal to sell condoms, the book Ulysses only became unbanned ten 10 years, the film exorcist was banned here, we have a f**king blasphemy law

we in this country love to berate those far away muslim countries where women and mens freedoms are non-existent but we are as backward here in many areas

We now know that he catholic church is not as influential as it once was. However, this does not mean that there will not still be a great deal of opposition to any proposed changes that would make Irelands abortion laws less conservative then they are now. Whatever peoples reasons for their opposition to this is irrelevant and is their own business entirely.

If it is on the basis of religious beliefs then so be it. I don't believe that they deserve to be chastised over it because playboy was banned some years ago or some other inane reason. People have their reasons.

Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

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