Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

Options
1…89101113

Comments

  • Options
    #362
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    What is your definition of life?
    I believe life begins at conception.
    Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.Day 22: heart begins to beat Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop .By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear Weeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.
    Isint it amazing how that little 'clump of cells', progresses.
    If your comfortable with Abortion thats fine.
    I'm just not .


  • Options
    #363
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    donfers wrote: »
    If men were the ones who had babies I'd wager that 99% of the pro-lifers would maintain their position but maybe 50% of pro-choicers would magically adapt their views (yes I can but speculate here)
    I'd wager if men had to go through pregnancy abortion clinics would line every street. It's easy to say abortions are wrong when you'll never have to seriously contemplate it.


  • Options
    #364
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I'd wager if men had to go through pregnancy abortion clinics would line every street. It's easy to say abortions are wrong when you'll never have to seriously contemplate it.

    Once again insinuating that an abortion has no knock-on effect on a man whatsoever. Do you think if a man gets a girl pregnant and she decides to get an abortion he forgets about it 20 seconds later?


  • Options
    #365
    common sense brigade
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 506 ✭✭✭common sense brigade


    I'd wager if men had to go through pregnancy abortion clinics would line every street. It's easy to say abortions are wrong when you'll never have to seriously contemplate it.
    Disagree with this. Have alot more faith in Men having being raised by men and no mother.
    Do you also think then that Men should have no say if we have an abortion referendum? I mean if it doesnt affect them surely then they shouldnt get a vote.
    Which of course is totally wrong. The man is the father not just the sperm donor. He has rights, and the Law here needs to be changed to address those rights.
    Have to go now. happy christmas to all of ye on both sides of the debate. hope you all have a lovely christmas.


  • Options
    #366
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    common sense brigade wrote: »
    I believe life begins at conception.
    Day 1: fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins.Day 22: heart begins to beat Week 5: Eyes, legs, and hands begin to develop .By the 8th week the baby can begin to hear Weeks 9 and 10: Teeth begin to form, fingernails develop. The baby can turn his head, and frown. The baby can hiccup Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.
    Isint it amazing how that little 'clump of cells', progresses.
    If your comfortable with Abortion thats fine.
    I'm just not .

    So human life begins when all chromosomes are present. What if theres an extra one. Is that not human?

    Do all cells which have the correct amount of chromosomes have the same value as a baby or adult?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #367
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    prinz wrote: »
    Once again insinuating that an abortion has no knock-on effect on a man whatsoever. Do you think if a man gets a girl pregnant and she decides to get an abortion he forgets about it 20 seconds later?
    Well it all depends, if it's a woman he loved and was expecting to raise a family with I'm sure he'd have a problem with it. If it's some woman he slept with 4 moths ago turning up at he's door saying she's pregnant I don't think he'd have to much of a problem with her having an abortion. Men are career driven and won't want anything standing in their way a man would be much more likely to abort. I think that's the way it is now and would only get worse if they were the ones expected to give birth and look after the child.
    common sense brigade wrote: »
    Disagree with this. Have alot more faith in Men having being raised by men and no mother.
    Do you also think then that Men should have no say if we have an abortion referendum? I mean if it doesnt affect them surely then they shouldnt get a vote.
    Which of course is totally wrong. The man is the father not just the sperm donor. He has rights, and the Law here needs to be changed to address those rights.
    Have to go now. happy christmas to all of ye on both sides of the debate. hope you all have a lovely christmas.
    The man doesn't have to carry the baby and give birth to it, that's really the bottom line. The man only really has a responsibility if he wants it and is let.

    It's not really fair but ultimately the responsibility rests with the person who is giving birth so at the end of the day it's the woman's decision what she does with her life until a child is born into the world when her responsibility is to the child putting her own life second.

    No one should have the right to force another person to suffer by their moral code.


  • Options
    #368
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Well it all depends, if it's a woman he loved and was expecting to raise a family with I'm sure he'd have a problem with it. If it's some woman he slept with 4 moths ago turning up at he's door saying she's pregnant I don't think he'd have to much of a problem with her having an abortion..

    That's a very cynical view of the male sex tbh, not to mention rather odd.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    The man only really has a responsibility if he wants it and is let.

    It doesn't really work that way in practice.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    No one should have the right to force another person to suffer by their moral code.

    So no more prisons then.


  • Options
    #369
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    prinz wrote: »
    That's a very cynical view of the male sex tbh, not to mention rather odd.



    It doesn't really work that way in practice.



    So no more prisons then.
    I think prisons are a complete waste of time, I don't believe in state sponsored retribution to be honest I want to see rehabilitation. But that's another story.

    It not odd to think men are more career driven it's well documented it's a trait of males across the animal kingdom and it's also well known men do runners when the issue of children is brought up. I'm not saying it happens as regularly as some might think it's rare enough but it happens and realistically there really is no restraint on the man to stick around if he can live with the guilt of running away then there's nothing stopping him from doing so.


  • Options
    #370
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I think prisons are a complete waste of time, I don't believe in state sponsored retribution to be honest I want to see rehabilitation. But that's another story..

    Ah here, who wants to hear about beliefs and moral codes...
    ScumLord wrote: »
    It not odd to think men are more career driven it's well documented it's a trait of males across the animal kingdom and it's also well known men do runners when the issue of children is brought up. I'm not saying it happens as regularly as some might think it's rare enough but it happens and realistically there really is no restraint on the man to stick around if he can live with the guilt of running away then there's nothing stopping him from doing so.

    ...and there are times when women do the same. I was referring more to the point that you would think even in the case of a one night stand or whatever that a guy wouldn't give a second thought about an abortion. Even if he was staunchly pro-choice, you think that news would go in one ear and out the other, never to be considered again?


  • Options
    #371
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Just curious. What is your definition of life?

    I ask because there are definitions of life which a sperm is equal to an embryo.

    So when we talk about life, what are we talking about. Value? Consciousness? potential?
    When the egg and sperm are joined together forming a zygote, that is a new human life.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #372
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    scientific1982 wrote: »
    When the egg and sperm are joined together forming a zygote, that is a new human life.

    So what makes that more valuable than say a skin cell?


  • Options
    #373
    jugger0
    Registered Users Posts: 1,453 ✭✭✭jugger0


    Abortions are sick... keep your fupping legs closed if you dont want a child.


  • Options
    #374
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    sensibleken wrote: »
    So what makes that more valuable than say a skin cell?
    Because a skin cell doesnt have the potential to form a fetus. It lacks pluripotency.


  • Options
    #375
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    scientific1982 wrote: »
    Because a skin cell doesnt have the potential to form a fetus. It lacks pluripotency.

    Ok so its the potential but is that potential also not in the sperm and egg? I know they cannot on their own but the zygote only has the potential to turn into a foetus, so why is the potential for something the same as the actual thing?


  • Options
    #376
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Ok so its the potential but is that potential also not in the sperm and egg? I know they cannot on their own but the zygote only has the potential to turn into a foetus, so why is the potential for something the same as the actual thing?
    You're right that the zygote only has the potential to form a fetus, but the zygote is a new individual. It is genetically different from its mother and father.


  • Options
    #377
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    scientific1982 wrote: »
    You're right that the zygote only has the potential to form a fetus, but the zygote is a new individual. It is genetically different from its mother and father.

    true but why is that valuable? It is individual only on a genetic level

    Im sorry if these questions seem assinine but im just trying to understand the life begins at conception arguement.


  • Options
    #378
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    sensibleken wrote: »
    true but why is that valuable? It is individual only on a genetic level

    Im sorry if these questions seem assinine but im just trying to understand the life begins at conception arguement.
    Because its human life and we're all products of our genetics. Could you tell me what you mean by "valuable" in this context.


  • Options
    #379
    sensibleken
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    scientific1982 wrote: »
    Because its human life and we're all products of our genetics. Could you tell me what you mean by "valuable" in this context.

    Well what i mean is that in order to determine that the unborn child/embryo etc is more important than a womans right to not have a child if she wishes for whatever reason, we all know they vary, then the embryo is of greater value than that. im wondering what you are using to measure that value

    At the moment of conception. Ie before it even becomes an embryo it is genetically little different to a skin cell

    genetics are important. i grant you and none of us would be here if we were not a single celled zygote once. But similarly we would not be here if there was not a sperm before that yet everyone can agree that dumping your sperm is no big deal.


  • Options
    #380
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    sensibleken wrote: »
    Well what i mean is that in order to determine that the unborn child/embryo etc is more important than a womans right to not have a child if she wishes for whatever reason, we all know they vary, then the embryo is of greater value than that. im wondering what you are using to measure that value

    At the moment of conception. Ie before it even becomes an embryo it is genetically little different to a skin cell

    genetics are important. i grant you and none of us would be here if we were not a single celled zygote once. But similarly we would not be here if there was not a sperm before that yet everyone can agree that dumping your sperm is no big deal.
    At the moment of conception, it is vastly different from a skin cell. And it is ok to use condoms because the sperm is a part of you, its not seperate individual.


  • Options
    #381
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    sensibleken wrote: »
    true but why is that valuable? It is individual only on a genetic level

    Im sorry if these questions seem assinine but im just trying to understand the life begins at conception arguement.

    Since "God" has decided that we should auto-abort up to 40% of all foetuses, the argument seems to fall flat on it's face, or blastocyte. Besides, the human foetus does not feel pain until well after the maximum abortion time-limit imposed in most countries where abortion is available on demand. Moreover, many other cells have the capacity to become individuals thanks to genetic technology. The space for any god to hide in is becoming increasingly cramped and untenable.

    With any luck, the god-botherers will let other humans decide how to run their lives instead of imposing their own stonge age morality on them.

    Some day......


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #382
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    With any luck, the god-botherers will let other humans decide how to run their lives instead of imposing their own stonge age morality on them.Some day......

    I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster who failed to answer for some reason. What do you say to atheists who are anti-abortion? If the "god-botherers" is your only card to play perhaps you should take some time to have another think.


  • Options
    #383
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    prinz wrote: »
    I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster who failed to answer for some reason. What do you say to atheists who are anti-abortion? If the "god-botherers" is your only card to play perhaps you should take some time to have another think.

    It would depend largely on why they thought they should deny such a choice to women. If you are offering a particular answer from a hypothetical atheist I am happy to engage with you on it. On the surface of it I think I would safely say that there are very few educated atheists or skeptics who would be against abortion-on-demand.

    But please, if you have a reason aside from metaphysics, I'd be happy to comment.


  • Options
    #384
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    sensibleken wrote: »
    But similarly we would not be here if there was not a sperm before that yet everyone can agree that dumping your sperm is no big deal.

    Not everyone:
    Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.

    Ref: CDF 137, Persona humana 9.

    See the Vatican Website for further moral guidelines that would be amusing if they weren't so alarming.


  • Options
    #385
    KamiKazeKitten
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭KamiKazeKitten


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    I think I would safely say that there are very few educated atheists or skeptics who would be against abortion-on-demand.

    I'm pro-choice, but that's very arrogant. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are uneducated.


  • Options
    #386
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    KamiKazeKitten wrote: »
    I'm pro-choice, but that's very arrogant. Just because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they are uneducated.

    I said very few. Not zero. And I didn't say they were uneducated because they disagreed with me. Please let's keep the hyperbole out as long as we can.


  • Options
    #387
    prinz
    Registered Users Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    It would depend largely on why they thought they should deny such a choice to women. If you are offering a particular answer from a hypothetical atheist I am happy to engage with you on it..

    Well there is at least one on this thread that I am aware of, so I was just wondering, do you have anything other than slurs on religious people to argue about? Or are you just going to stick with the line that anyone who is anti-abortion on deman is a "god botherer" and nothing more? Simply put, because it's about as useful as claiming everyone pro-choice is an "educated atheist". Such a claim would be nonsense.
    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    On the surface of it I think I would safely say that there are very few educated atheists or skeptics who would be against abortion-on-demand..

    ..and I think it would be safe to say you'd be wrong in that assumption. For example the Libertarians For Life group in the US would be quite sizeable.


  • Options
    #388
    Donkey Oaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭Donkey Oaty


    jugger0 wrote: »
    You payed some guy to murder your unborn baby, arent you brave! im glad you can sleep at night with your decision i know i would never be able to.

    In my opinion the poster is brave. The kind of inflammatory language you are using here really does not contribute anything to the debate.


  • Options
    #389
    scientific1982
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    Caesar Augustus wrote: »
    It would depend largely on why they thought they should deny such a choice to women. If you are offering a particular answer from a hypothetical atheist I am happy to engage with you on it. On the surface of it I think I would safely say that there are very few educated atheists or skeptics who would be against abortion-on-demand.

    But please, if you have a reason aside from metaphysics, I'd be happy to comment.
    I'm a fairly well educated atheist and I think abortion, with the exception of extreme cases, is ethically wrong.


  • Options
    #390
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    prinz wrote: »
    Well there is at least one on this thread that I am aware of, so I was just wondering, do you have anything other than slurs on religious people to argue about?

    Like I said, I'm happy to comment on any non-metaphysical reasoning you may present.
    ..and I think it would be safe to say you'd be wrong in that assumption. For example the Libertarians For Life group in the US would be quite sizeable.

    Who said they were educated? Scientists the lot of them, huh? I assumed it was obvious I was talking about people suitably educated in biological sciences, i.e. those who can talk ad nauseum about the reality of conception, and the science behind the processes involved.

    Cheers


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #391
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    scientific1982 wrote: »
    I'm a fairly well educated atheist and I think abortion, with the exception of extreme cases, is ethically wrong.

    Very cool. Do you have a scientific basis for it, such as the time where the foetus is distinguishable from other mammalian ones? Or do you see any foetus as equal in worth to any other human life?

    Purely from a scientific POV, would you agree that a foetus is not much different to any other lump of cells until the brain becomes sufficiently developed so as to confer intelligence? (shall we say humanity?)

    Any other information would be great, I find this sort of thing fascinating.


This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement