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National Postcodes to be introduced

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  • #452
    mackerski
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,291 ✭✭✭mackerski


    recedite wrote: »
    Sorry, no use at all to me.
    I'd still have the courier ringing me at 6.30 am asking for directions whenever I make an internet purchase.
    I'd still be trying to get GPS coordinates for the B&B or rental house when I'm travelling.

    The solution to that isn't going to come from encodings of lat and long, IMO, but from tidier ways to communicate lat and long when required. For your B&B we already know how that works - POIs. These are already becoming democratised through OpenStreetMap. If you have a B&B and want people to find you, you can put yourself on the map.

    Device manufacturers too will ultimately adopt a straightforward way to push a location's co-ordinates, name, telephone number and otherwise POI essence directly from a web page (or email message, or e-commerce transaction in the case of your incoming delivery) to the navigation device that needs to navigate there.

    So in the future there will be postcodes - these will be based on sane clusters of addresses, and will therefore not be co-ordinate based. It looks as though they will not yield delivery-point accuracy unless given extra digits in the future. And there will be POIs, but the world will find nicer ways of making sure that you don't have to punch their co-ordinates the hard way.


  • #453
    sovereign
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 ✭sovereign


    spacetweek wrote: »
    The gov's proposed system wouldn't ever need to be updated.
    Your postman's problem would be solved with a comprehensive road naming and numbering scheme, but that's for the council, not postcodes.
    The code you mention has 8 chars versus 6, so it is significant in terms of trying to memorise.

    Can you confirm that all postocde areas are be preassigned under the proposed system? So the postcode will already be known for any newly built clusters of houses?

    I'm not quite sure how a road numbering system system would solve the problem. Lets say John Murphy & his wife Brid own a farm and his house is 100m from the road on a private avenue. His son John is also married, has built a house near the road and has a daughter called Brid. His other son Joe is married to Beatrice and has built a house on the opposite side of the road. They all have the same postcode.

    The postman has two letters one addressed to "John Murphy" and one addressed to "B Murphy". How will a road numbering scheme help?


  • #454
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    Irrrespective of postcodes issues, we could do with proper road naming and numbering.


  • #455
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    sovereign wrote: »
    Can you confirm that all postocde areas are be preassigned under the proposed system? So the postcode will already be known for any newly built clusters of houses?
    Yes, a postcode covers a land area. Any houses currently within it or built there in future adopt that code.
    The postman has two letters one addressed to "John Murphy" and one addressed to "B Murphy". How will a road numbering scheme help?
    When I say numbering I don't just mean that the road will be called "Birch Lane" or something, I mean that all the houses on it will be assigned a number too. In rural areas this is often done by saying 10 metres (or whatever) = 1 address and odd numbers go on the left/even on the right. So John and Brid would have different house numbers - all assigned by the council. This is the system used in many foreign countries and works well.


  • #456
    sovereign
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 ✭sovereign


    sounds reasonable. I wonder is three digits enough to cover all potential house numbers within 10m on all existing and future roads within a postcode area.

    But since we are going to get to within 10m of a house anyway would it not just as easy to use a location code based on say the irish grid. Eg use a county letter and a format like XXN-XNNNN where the last 4 digits are x and y coords?

    People have already argued against strings like 'ATH' because of confusion with athlone, athenry etc. The system above would still allow successive subdivision of areas down to clusters, be usable straightaway in a GPS to 10m, there would be only one code for people to remember (no property number required) and no need to get the council involved...


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  • #457
    yuloni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭yuloni


    This post has been deleted.


  • #458
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    They seem to have taken the criticism re the need to uniquely identify premises, made by the Oireachtas committee, on board so there will be a plan for an extra identifier to house level.

    Any of these codes will work with a gps navigation system. It doesn't have to be gps-based. It's just a matter of importing the address database containing the postcode.


  • #459
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    ...so there will be a plan for an extra identifier to house level.

    Does this mean ABC 123 PLUS xx as an additional if you want to remember it?


  • #460
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,817 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Yes I think that is what they mean.


  • #461
    sovereign
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10 ✭sovereign


    antoinolachtnai wrote: »
    Yes I think that is what they mean.
    So is it the case that the solution will have to involve geodirectory if its to be ready and working by jan 2012 (i.e. in order to control and provide the building identifiers)?

    I presume a proprietary approach like that would enable them to keep control of and licence the postcode database for ongoing revenue?

    Overall I'm just glad that the chosen system should allow accurate deliveries to be made.


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  • #462
    Jayuu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 791 ✭✭✭Jayuu


    Can I ask people who would know better how an unique address numbering system copes with new builds? Let's say my house in on a road in the middle of the countryside and I get an postcode id. A neighbour then builds a house beside mine. Will the code for this new house be almost the same as mine?

    Also what sort of redundancy is available with the codes? Lets say I live on a street in Dublin and I have my postcode id. Then the two houses beside me are knocked down and redeveloped into a four story apartment complex with sixteen apartments. How would the codes that applied to those two houses be reapplied to the individual apartments?

    Or am I misunderstanding the concept of a unique code locator?


  • #463
    SPDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Condi wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    He seems to have forgotten about the election

    Enduring link to article

    http://siliconrepublic.com/comms/item/19507-digsch2010/


  • #464
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    Folks - this thread started 15 months ago with a report that the Minister said that there would be postcodes by 2011 and that a tender to design and implement them was being issued around that time (Sept 2009)

    The latest we hear is that he is now aiming for 2012, and Noel Dempsey previously said Jan 2008 - so SPDUB - you are right to remind us about the actual political sitaution right now!!!

    On here and elsewhere there is a constant circular discussion about what postcodes should look like (not much about what they would actually do)

    I have been contributing and answering questions on boards.ie on this subject (multiple threads) since 2008 when PON Codes were first released - now fully delivered for use as Loc8 Codes.

    There are many things on the wish list - discussion here tends to only deal with each individuals pet desire as to what they should look like without looking at the total need - Loc8 Codes satisfy a complete and fully thought-through set of needs as a result of research and field testing (Not done by anyone else!!!)
    Frequently Asked Questions on the Loc8 Code website cover replies to all the usual comment and demonstrate that Loc8 Codes cover all the possible requirements - Mail sorting being a very small part of the overall need. Please have a read of the Loc8 FAQ's here

    Loc8 Codes will be available to all manufacturers/developers in early 2011 (not restricted to Garmin alone) and watch out for iphone apps very very soon.

    Loc8 is already in place - Government talk has gone on for 5 years without action except to now accept that whatever goes in place should have a location Code capability like Loc8.


  • #465
    garydubh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 443 ✭✭garydubh


    conolan wrote: »
    Irrrespective of postcodes issues, we could do with proper road naming and numbering.

    Perhaps you are not aware of the problems associated with that - deeds, ownership, change of peoples addresses and the simple fact that in 2006 the report on postcodes deliberately stated that this would/could not happen for a multitude of reasons some of which are mentioned above.


  • #466
    ForiegnNational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 135 ✭✭ForiegnNational


    garydubh wrote: »
    Folks - this thread started 15 months ago with a report that the Minister said that there would be postcodes by 2011 and that a tender to design and implement them was being issued around that time (Sept 2009)

    The latest we hear is that he is now aiming for 2012, and Noel Dempsey previously said Jan 2008 - so SPDUB - you are right to remind us about the actual political sitaution right now!!!

    On here and elsewhere there is a constant circular discussion about what postcodes should look like (not much about what they would actually do)

    I have been contributing and answering questions on boards.ie on this subject (multiple threads) since 2008 when PON Codes were first released - now fully delivered for use as Loc8 Codes.

    There are many things on the wish list - discussion here tends to only deal with each individuals pet desire as to what they should look like without looking at the total need - Loc8 Codes satisfy a complete and fully thought-through set of needs as a result of research and field testing (Not done by anyone else!!!)
    Frequently Asked Questions on the Loc8 Code website cover replies to all the usual comment and demonstrate that Loc8 Codes cover all the possible requirements - Mail sorting being a very small part of the overall need. Please have a read of the Loc8 FAQ's here

    Loc8 Codes will be available to all manufacturers/developers in early 2011 (not restricted to Garmin alone) and watch out for iphone apps very very soon.

    Loc8 is already in place - Government talk has gone on for 5 years without action except to now accept that whatever goes in place should have a location Code capability like Loc8.

    Whilst I agree with you that Loc8 are location specific, future proof and in common use with the likes of Garmin supporting them, we are talking about a decision being made by the Irish Civil Service, which seem to inhabit a parallel universe when it comes to technical decisions.

    If you look at the absolute mess they have made of the Digital Terrestrial Television implementation, or Digital Audio Broadcasting, you can see how well decisions are being made within the civil service!

    Just because a technolgy works, is supported and tested seems to make absolutely no difference when we can have our own and special way of f***ing things up every time.


  • #467
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    So nobody has seen the stunt Garmin have pulled in Dublin then...

    Advertisements have been erected advertising the Loc8 codes in certain Dublin 2 (at any rate, perhaps further). What is particularly either clever or insiduous (depending on your point of view) is that these signs are using the exact same colours, design, and font as official Dublin City Council street signage and are placed right above the official signage. They also say "This Post Code" rather than Loc8 code giving the impression that they are the official postcode for the street. The Garmin logo is on the signs, although in a vertical orientation so its had to spot.

    Now I am all for postcodes being introduced, but for a private company to (in the vacum of indecision from the Department) take matters into its own hands like this is not the answer. At best they've broken planning premission laws by erecting billboards. But to me this is passing off on a grand scale. Its up to the State to decide the postal code system for this country, not a private company. That's not to say they can't use these codes if they want (and they have been), but to effectively claim by advertisements passing off as street signage that these Loc8 codes are the official postcode system of the country without having gone through a public tender process is not on.


  • #468
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Are these signs put up on street corners or are they on official billboard sites? Post a photo please if possible.:)


  • #469
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 12,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    They're on street corners, not billboard sites. They're right above the official street sign, as if to make them look part of the street sign.

    I haven't a photo unfortunately. Among the streets they were erected on was Kildare Street, so presumably some politican will notice!


  • #470
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Hopefully Eamonn Ryan will be passing by on his bike :D


  • #471
    Syth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭Syth


    I took a photo of those new postcode vandalism signs, they really are extracting the urine.

    Garmin Ireland Postcode Vandalism


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  • #472
    Alun
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,549 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    I agree, that's really taking the piss. I can't believe whoever put these up have permission from DCC for this.


  • #473
    redalicat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 190 ✭✭redalicat


    Alun wrote: »
    I agree, that's really taking the piss. I can't believe whoever put these up have permission from DCC for this.

    And if they haven't the permission, then what's to stop other postcode competitors from posting above that? Hey, I guess if I came up with my own code, I could put one up, too! :rolleyes:


  • #474
    Syth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,865 ✭✭✭Syth


    Syth wrote: »
    I took a photo of those new postcode vandalism signs, they really are extracting the urine.

    Garmin Ireland Postcode Vandalism

    I have reported it to Dublin City Council as grafitti (service request 185904). We'll see what they say.


  • #475
    conolan
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 586 ✭✭✭conolan


    redalicat wrote: »
    Hey, I guess if I came up with my own code, I could put one up, too! :

    I know this is cheeky (apologies to those whose copyrights have been infringed)

    kildarest.jpg

    I totally disapprove of the Garmin action. Gary know anything about it?


  • #476
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,188 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    icdg wrote: »
    So nobody has seen the stunt Garmin have pulled in Dublin then...

    Advertisements have been erected advertising the Loc8 codes in certain Dublin 2 (at any rate, perhaps further). What is particularly either clever or insiduous (depending on your point of view) is that these signs are using the exact same colours, design, and font as official Dublin City Council street signage and are placed right above the official signage. They also say "This Post Code" rather than Loc8 code giving the impression that they are the official postcode for the street. The Garmin logo is on the signs, although in a vertical orientation so its had to spot.

    Now I am all for postcodes being introduced, but for a private company to (in the vacum of indecision from the Department) take matters into its own hands like this is not the answer. At best they've broken planning premission laws by erecting billboards. But to me this is passing off on a grand scale. Its up to the State to decide the postal code system for this country, not a private company. That's not to say they can't use these codes if they want (and they have been), but to effectively claim by advertisements passing off as street signage that these Loc8 codes are the official postcode system of the country without having gone through a public tender process is not on.

    At least they are doing something and getting a system out that people can use.

    Then I saw the pictures, cheeky f@€kers.


  • #477
    aliveandkicking
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 961 ✭✭✭aliveandkicking


    Response from DCC:

    We have received a number of complaints about unofficial Post Code Signs that have gone up across the City. We have set up a file and are issuing warning letters under Section 152 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 – 2010. The warning letters will be issued and they have four weeks to respond.


  • #478
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    redalicat wrote: »
    And if they haven't the permission, then what's to stop other postcode competitors from posting above that? Hey, I guess if I came up with my own code, I could put one up, too! :rolleyes:

    Or even if you just wanted to put something like redalicat was here
    Is flyposting illegal in Dublin ?
    aliveandkicking wrote: »
    We have set up a file and are issuing warning letters under Section 152 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 – 2010. The warning letters will be issued and they have four weeks to respond.

    What other laws can one flout with impunity for up to four weeks after being detected by the authorities ?


  • #479
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    I think its a good idea, on balance, so long as the walls are not damaged.
    Its time to shake up the postcode issue and get it moving.
    They have obviously targeted the environs of Leinster House for a reason.

    Anyone remember the powerwasher pavement adds last year?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=61075297
    The companies involved got ticked off, but the publicity was huge.

    So here's what happens;
    1. Eagle eyed punters spread the news on the net.
    2. Newspapers send reporters down to take photos.
    3. Old gits read the paper and, outraged, phone Joe Duffy to complain.
    4. Minister Ryan forced to issue a statement saying that in fact next to nothing is happening with postcodes.
    5. People then ask Why Not.


  • #480
    EvilMonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭EvilMonkey


    Syth wrote: »
    I have reported it to Dublin City Council as grafitti (service request 185904). We'll see what they say.

    At least you can easily give the council the exact locations of the "grafitti" :D


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  • #481
    SPDUB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,348 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    recedite wrote: »
    I think its a good idea, on balance, so long as the walls are not damaged.

    They should now be automatically excluded from any system under consideration .


This discussion has been closed.
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