The Status Of Irish.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 6:44am #1

With the current government on its way out and a FG - Labour government almost a certainty, I would like to see what change people think should be made to the teaching of the Irish Language.

Fine Gael is as far as I know working on a new education policy. In their old education policy they famously (or infamously depending on your point of view)proposed dropping the Compulsory status of Irish in the last two years of secondary school. The claim being that if Children were free to choose Irish they would learn it, and do so more successfully due to love for the language.

Here is an analysis of that proposal by the Former President of Conradh na Gaeilge, Maolsheachlainn Ó Caollaí,
He explains why it would be an act of cultural and national vandalism to dismiss the Irish language from the core curriculum for the Leaving Cert.

The reason why

Fine Gael does not and cannot show any evidence that a significant
percentage of speakers of the highest status language in the world
can be motivated by ‘love’ to learn a lower status language.

He also shows how the dropping of compulsion for language learning in England had disastrous results.

In 2002 when it became clear that in two years time
languages would no longer be required, a landslide began. In 2001,
before the announcement, 78% of pupils aged 14 to 16 were
learning languages. By 2008, that figure had dropped to 44%

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?
Personally I believe the proposal for reform of Irish language education put forward by Conradh na Gaeilge would be the best and most successful way forward.

Beartas Oideachais

Summary.

- All trainee teachers should be taught through Irish in an all-Irish environment, learning through and about immersion education in Irish, for the equivalent of one academic year of their training course, divided over the total length of their course and including the vital first few weeks. Students to be given the option to complete the entire course through Irish if they so wish;
- One subject, as well as Irish, should be through the medium of Irish to all primary pupils, initially on a pilot basis with the necessary support and training;
-Two syllabi should be developed for Irish at second level with two different examination papers for the Leaving Certificate and the Junior Certificate exams, Teanga na Gaeilge, or Irish Language to be taught to every student and Litríocht na Gaeilge, or Irish Language Literature for higher level students only.

meglome · 29-11-2010 7:00am

I'd be all for something like the Conradh na Gaeilge suggestions. I have little Irish myself but I don't buy into this 'sure it's pointless' mentality. At that rate why don't we just drop all but the top five or six languages and make everyone in the world speak them. An awful lot of people see their language as extremely culturally important so dropping any languages won't happen. If we can get past our ingrained self-loathing of things Irish we could see it blossom again.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 7:10am

meglome wrote: »

I'd be all for something like the Conradh na Gaeilge suggestions. I have little Irish myself but I don't buy into this 'sure it's pointless' mentality. At that rate why don't we just drop all but the top five or six languages and make everyone in the world speak them. An awful lot of people see their language as extremely culturally important so dropping any languages won't happen. If we can get past our ingrained self-loathing of things Irish we could see it blossom again.

I wouldn't go as far as to blame 'self-loathing' though there is clearly a tendency by some to dismiss anything Irish out of hand without even a tought.
Certainly, if these proposals were implemented, along with proper support for new Gaelscoileanna. (I believe there are currently ten ongoing campaign's that have the numbers, waiting for Government recognition.) We would see consistent growth in the use of Irish in our society.

GarlicBread · 29-11-2010 7:22am

deise go deo wrote: »

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?

Hmm, best thing to do would be to completely drop it from secondary schools altogather.

Secondly, make it more intensive in primary schools by having teachers speak it while teaching other subjects. Maybe drop it as a subject in primary aswell and focus it more on the random things like chatter during other subjects.

If it was done like this people would end up being able to speak it properly and would less associate it with so called 'work'. This is the problem me thinks, that many view it like they view maths or science etc etc, like a subject they dont like and want to escape from, as opposed to part of their own culture.

Make it not a subject at all but part of the daily routine, part of the culture that feeds into every other subject.

The only irish i ever learned was "unbhuil cead agam, dul go di un leartharus, ma sha da hula", pardon my appauling spelling. After 14 years in school one would think i should know a bit more. You get my point.

meglome · 29-11-2010 7:24am

deise go deo wrote: »

I wouldn't go as far as to blame 'self-loathing' though there is clearly a tendency by some to dismiss anything Irish out of hand without even a tought.
Certainly, if these proposals were implemented, along with proper support for new Gaelscoileanna. (I believe there are currently ten ongoing campaign's that have the numbers, waiting for Government recognition.) We would see consistent growth in the use of Irish in our society.

Sure 'self-loathing' was a bit exaggerated. But we do save our sharpest knives for anything or anyone Irish. No Bono thread can go more than a few pages without comparisons to Hitler in some fashion. I appreciate that threads get Godwin'd a lot but still.

I'd love to see more Gaelscoils.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 7:25am

GarlicBread wrote: »

Hmm, best thing to do would be to completely drop it from secondary schools altogather.

Secondly, make it more intensive in primary schools by having teachers speak it while teaching other subjects. Maybe drop it as a subject in primary aswell and focus it more on the random things like chatter during other subjects.

If it was done like this people would end up being able to speak it properly and would less associate it with so called 'work'. This is the problem me thinks, that many view it like they view maths or science etc etc, like a subject they dont like and want to escape from, as opposed to part of their own culture.

Make it not a subject at all but part of the daily routine, part of the culture that feeds into every other subject.

The only irish i ever learned was "unbhuil cead agam, dul go di un leartharus, ma sha da hula", pardon my appauling spelling. After 14 years one would think i should know a bit more. You get my point.

The article link I provided deals with why something like that would be disastrous.

While I can see where you are coming from, as the article suggests, the most likely result of a step like that being taken is a major drop in the status of Irish compared to English and as a result less people willing to learn it and therefore state services through Irish becoming less justified, all contributing to a downward spiral.

Think of it this way, The state would be paying to educate primary school teachers in Irish while parents would see no benefit to their kids learning it at all. From there its only a small step to it being dropped completely from the education system.

GarlicBread · 29-11-2010 7:39am

deise go deo wrote: »

The article link I provided deals with why something like that would be disastrous.

While I can see where you are coming from, as the article suggests, the most likely result of a step like that being taken is a major drop in the status of Irish compared to English and as a result less people willing to learn it and therefore state services through Irish becoming less justified, all contributing to a downward spiral.

Think of it this way, The state would be paying to educate primary school teachers in Irish while parents would see no benefit to their kids learning it at all. From there its only a small step to it being dropped completely from the education system.

From an academic point of view i suppose your right, but at this stage in the game its about salvation more than anything. It would be much much better to have half the country speaking 30% irish / 70% english rather than having a huge divide that exists now.

Either way, i think we could all agree that the first few years of primary school is essential. I think most people dont grasp the basics then so by the time they get to the later stages they are lost completely.

Is ma liom ganzy gurum? Well, i can only try.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 7:57am

GarlicBread wrote: »

From an academic point of view i suppose your right, but at this stage in the game its about salvation more than anything. It would be much much better to have half the country speaking 30% irish / 70% english rather than having a huge divide that exists now.

Either way, i think we could all agree that the first few years of primary school is essential. I think most people dont grasp the basics then so by the time they get to the later stages they are lost completely.

Is ma liom ganzy gurum? Well, i can only try.

Yes, but that means it is even more important to use the method that has evidence to support its effectiveness,
The huge divide that exists now has very little to do with Irish being Compulsory, Poor teaching methods and a terribly poor curriculum are the root of the problem.

Indeed you are right, Primary school education is critical, that is why two of the three proposals put forward by CnaG deal with Primary level.

BKtje · 29-11-2010 9:36am

I think the option should be there to drop it in the leaving cert cycle but to be replaced by another language.

Schools on the continent focus much more on languages than we do. Many leave school with their mother tongue, english and one other european language (or more!).
Opens up so many different countries if you already have a grounding in the local language.

Currently we study Irish and German/French.
I think the option should be there to do German, French, Irish, Spanish and maybe chinese? Pick the three you want and run with them. Those seem the major languages needed in the world today.

I also think that the phonetique alphabet should be taught in schools. It would greatly aid the learning (prononciation) of foreign languages at a later date.

Finally I think that the english language curriculum should change. After primary school it basically turns into a literature course. There should still be some grammar, vocabulary (business vocabulary, formal letter writing etc) work as well as the literature aspects. It would prepare people for the english required in the (office) work place and give a better grounding in the rules of grammar in the english language.

They should also change the curriculum of the Irish language. I've done a year of intensive french. At no point have we done any literature or poetry except in the case where it aided the understanding of grammar, vocabulary etc. I have no interest in learning french (or irish) poetry when my grasp of the language isn't sufficient. Perhaps have an Irish culture option in school which runs alongside the Irish language course for those who are interested.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 29-11-2010 9:39am

That comparison to foreign languages in England is total horsesh*t. People learn Irish Gaelic for cultural reasons as well as linguistic. Notice he didn't mention how in Wales, Welsh(which is a much more accurate parallel) is fluourishing and it is optional for the final two years there.

Also he's living in typical gaelgoir dreamland if he thinks people doing ordinary level("retard level" would be more appropriate) Irish is having any positive effect on people speaking the language.

People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.

It is so ridiculous, as if you learn anything important at retard level in the final 2 years of a 14 year course. Anyone who does higher would still choose to do it if it were optional.

cyclopath2001 · 29-11-2010 10:03am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.

+1 There's also a substantial financial interest in maintaining compulsory Irish and the obligations imposed by the official langauges act.

There are two issues:

1: Ensuring Irish people can speak another language in addition to their first one (usually this is English).

2: Providing access to quality Irish-language teaching to those who require it.

Ideally, every Irish person should taught to speak two languages, English being one of them. The second langauage choice should be from among the most useful foreign languages and also Irish.

Where an English-speaking Irish person opts for a langauge other than Irish as a second language, the standard of teaching should be as good as that envisaged for Irish.

dan_d · 29-11-2010 10:09am

A lot of the problems with Irish seem to stem from how it's taught.

Actually, not seem. They do stem from how it's taught.

I was one of those lucky enough to have several fantastic teachers through primary school, particularly around the 4th/5th/6th class level, where kids can actually understand the concept of verbs and tenses (inniu, gach lá, amárach, inné). They are the building blocks of any language - how can you say anything if you don't know the words for the basic verbs?I've picked up Spanish in the last couple of months, and while I was okay with greetings and all that, after about 2 weeks my teacher started in on verbs.Present tense only. And suddenly I'm able to form sentences, and have (slow!) conversations with her.

We teach Irish so badly. If you're lucky, you get a teacher that has an interest and teaches properly.But there are a lot of teachers out there that just don't. Especially at primary school level, where the course is fuzzy at best for that age group. And there's no doubt that at that level English grammar should be taught too, even just the basics.There's no point trying to teach the tinies (5/6/7yr olds) grammar, but at the higher classes, it can be done - the basics.

The thing is that we need to get rid of this idea that Irish is this big bad demon sent to drive us all to hell. It's not. It's just a language. It's got verbs, tenses, nouns, adverbs and rules like every other language. Some words are masculine, some are feminine, same as every other language. And you just learn the rules to deal with each case - same as every other language.

People have the same attitude to maths, you know.Again, a lot of the problem is in the teaching.

So in answer to your question, no I don't think it should be taken out of the curriculum. For a number of reasons - I'm not that patriotic, but it is our language, and it's a lot more alive than we give it credit for. And secondly - why don't we just change how we're teaching it, instead of spoon feeding kids yet again, and taking the big, horrible,(perceived) difficult things out of their lives?? Would we not be better off to take say, religion, out of the curriculum at secondary school and replace it with the option of another language???

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:10am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

That comparison to foreign languages in England is total horsesh*t. People learn Irish Gaelic for cultural reasons as well as linguistic. Notice he didn't mention how in Wales, Welsh(which is a much more accurate parallel) is fluourishing and it is optional for the final two years there.

Are you suggesting that it is flourishing because it is optional for the final two years?
If not then it seams clear that making Irish optional is not benifical and potentially very damaging.
Might it be that it is flourishing since it was made compulsory in the first place?
The Comparison with England is to show that if something is changed from being Compulsory to being optional it will not flourish(as has been suggested) but most likely see a devastating collapse.

Also he's living in typical gaelgoir dreamland if he thinks people doing ordinary level("retard level" would be more appropriate) Irish is having any positive effect on people speaking the language.

I did ordinary level.

It can and will, if done properly, promote the speaking of Irish, Do you think people if tought properly who do ordinary level cannot learn a Language? I would like to see some evidence for this as I did ordinary level and am also learning Irish now.

People who want to keep it compulsory should hold their hands up and admit they are simply feared that making it optional at leaving cert is the beginning of a slippery slope and nothing to do with practical considerations.

The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?

It is so ridiculous, as if you learn anything important at retard level in the final 2 years of a 14 year course. Anyone who does higher would still choose to do it if it were optional.

Please stop referring to Ordinary level as 'Retard' level, it is quite ofencive.
That has been shown not to be the case, the British worked on the same notion and the numbers learning languages there collapsed, Show me evidence to back up your claim.
The point is that dropping Compulsion dose not promote a love of and flourishing of learning a language like The British claimed and FG are claiming, Show me an example where it has.

Of course changing the last two years alone will not have a major effect, that is why I posted a link to CnaG's overall policy on Irish education.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 10:27am

deise go deo wrote: »

Here is an analysis of that proposal by the Former President of Conradh na Gaeilge, Maolsheachlainn Ó Caollaí,
He explains why it would be an act of cultural and national vandalism to dismiss the Irish language from the core curriculum for the Leaving Cert.

He also shows how the dropping of compulsion for language learning in England had disastrous results.

If we make it optional, then people will not want to learn it;
So better to force people to learn it, because that is really going to improve things.

That argument doesn't compute

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?

Compulsory at primary, should be totally optional at second level

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:28am

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

+1 There's also a substantial financial interest in maintaining compulsory Irish and the obligations imposed by the official langauges act.

More unsupported allegations of self serving Cyclopath?
It would be great if you could provide some evidence, It just starts becoming ad hominum after a while.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:29am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If we make it optional, then people will not want to learn it;
So better to force people to learn it, because that is really going to improve things.

That argument doesn't compute

Compulsory at primary, should be totally optional at second level

Despite the fact that it has been shown not to work? Why would you choose the poorer method?

Bottle_of_Smoke · 29-11-2010 10:34am

deise go deo wrote: »

Are you suggesting that it is flourishing because it is optional for the final two years?
If not then it seams clear that making Irish optional is not benifical and potentially very damaging.
Might it be that it is flourishing since it was made compulsory in the first place?
The Comparison with England is to show that if something is changed from being Compulsory to being optional it will not flourish(as has been suggested) but most likely see a devastating collapse.

It would get rid of resentment toward the language for being compulsory. How could it being optional for the final two years be a devestating collapse? Even if everyone chose not to do it they would still have 12 years of learning Irish.

I did ordinary level.

It can and will, if done properly, promote the speaking of Irish, Do you think people if tought properly who do ordinary level cannot learn a Language? I would like to see some evidence for this as I did ordinary level and am also learning Irish now.

You'd still be doing it if it was optional for the final two years. IF it was taught properly for 12 years what difference would it make if it were optional for the final 2?

Why can't you accept that there should be a personal choice for the subjects that you study to get into university or the workplace?

The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?

The evidence is that most people sitting junior cert irish could easily pass leaving cert irish if they were given the wrong paper. I'm sorry if there's no study done to verify this but the dogs on the street know its true. That means you learn f*ck all in the final two years of ordinary level Irish

Please stop referring to Ordinary level as 'Retard' level, it is quite ofencive.
That has been shown not to be the case, the British worked on the same notion and the numbers learning languages there collapsed, Show me evidence to back up your claim.
The point is that dropping Compulsion dose not promote a love of and flourishing of learning a language like The British claimed and FG are claiming, Show me an example where it has.'

Okay what should I call it? Perhaps "Artificially simple so everyone will study it" level?

I don't care if it doesn't promote a love or flourishment. HAving it compulsory doesn't promote a love or flourishment. People should have a choice for their final secondary studies.

Of course changing the last two years alone will not have a major effect, that is why I posted a link to CnaG's overall policy on Irish education.

Then why bother having it compulsory?

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 10:39am

deise go deo wrote: »

Despite the fact that it has been shown not to work? Why would you choose the poorer method?

Because the "poorer" method is the fairer method.

It's only the "poorer" method if your sole aim is to increase the amount of Irish speakers. That's not the objective of education, nor should it be.

If your aim to produce better rounded students who potentially enjoy schooling and can benefit from their education, then the "fairer" method is the better method

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:47am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It would get rid of resentment toward the language for being compulsory. How could it being optional for the final two years be a devestating collapse? Even if everyone chose not to do it they would still have 12 years of learning Irish.

In the same way that in the British Case it was a devastating collapse. Did you read the article? It makes the point of the domino effect throughout the education system.

You'd still be doing it if it was optional for the final two years. IF it was taught properly for 12 years what difference would it make if it were optional for the final 2?

See above, Why should it be made optional for the final two years? I can point out the disadvantages, where are the advantages?

Why can't you accept that there should be a personal choice for the subjects that you study to get into university or the workplace?

Choice? Why should I accept it, There is more than one compulsory subject lest we forget. What are the benefits of making Irish optional, I have shown you the potential downsides.

The evidence is that most people sitting junior cert irish could easily pass leaving cert irish if they were given the wrong paper. I'm sorry if there's no study done to verify this but the dogs on the street know its true. That means you learn f*ck all in the final two years of ordinary level Irish

What? I would like to see that evidence.
And yes you don't learn much in Ordinary level Irish for the LC, Again see the link for reforming Irish in the education system, I am not arguing for the status quo, I am arguing that making Irish optional is not the solution to the problem of Poor return on teaching Irish in schools.

Okay what should I call it? Perhaps "Artificially simple so everyone will study it" level?

I think ordinary level will do nicely.

I don't care if it doesn't promote a love or flourishment. HAving it compulsory doesn't promote a love or flourishment. People should have a choice for their final secondary studies.

Well most people do, The majority want Irish to be promoted, I am arguing that making it optional is not the way to do that.
Do you think English and maths should also be optional? Or dose peoples right to choose only apply selectivly?

Then why bother having it compulsory?

Why bother teach it at all if your only going to do a half assed job?

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:52am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Because the "poorer" method is the fairer method.

It's only the "poorer" method if your sole aim is to increase the amount of Irish speakers. That's not the objective of education, nor should it be.

If your aim to produce better rounded students who potentially enjoy schooling and can benefit from their education, then the "fairer" method is the better method

The objective of education is to impart knowledge and more importantly new ways of thinking, I think Teaching languages, Irish included comes under that heading, When you also realize that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted you can see where the two come together.
Fairer in who's opinion? Again is that applied across the board of just selectively?

astrofool · 29-11-2010 10:56am

Irish should be in the grouping of second languages required for uni courses. So pupils would have to have a pass in English + 1 other language (be it French, German, Irish etc.). Take up should still be good, as people will see a benefit to it (access to Uni) and those that don't want to do it, no longer have to.

Removing state compulsion on non practical things is always good. Welsh is a good example, not compulsary, but thriving (relative to the morose state of Irish).

Getting rid of silly state translations would also be good.

The Practical considerations are that people cannot be expected to learn a language in Large numbers simply for the love of it. The evidence dosent support it. What practicable considerations are there that you think are being ignored?

On this, what reason should people be learning Irish for then? It is solely taught as a link to our cultural past (whether it is or not is a different argument), on a purely practical consideration level, dropping it and wiping it out, would save shedloads of money. (Virtually) Everyone who knows Irish, knows English as well, what do they really need Irish for.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 10:58am

deise go deo wrote: »

Fairer in who's opinion? Again is that applied across the board of just selectively?

I thought it would be fairly obvious to you, but fairer in the opinion of those who prove that when the subject is not compulsory -> uptake plummets.

As selective as your study shows.
You yourself said it is the 'poorer' method.
What conclusion do you deduce from that?

The objective of education is to impart knowledge and more importantly new ways of thinking, I think Teaching languages, Irish included comes under that heading,

I agree with that, and nothing to stop Irish being involved in that process, if chosen by the pupil - i.e. optional

When you also realize that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted you can see where the two come together.

How did you come to that realization?
You claim that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted, yet you yourself directly stated that when optional, uptake plummets.

Can you not see how you are directly contradicting yourself?

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 10:59am

astrofool wrote: »

Removing state compulsion on non practical things is always good. Welsh is a good example, not compulsary, but thriving (relative to the morose state of Irish).

Not the greatest example, Welsh is compulsory to 16.

astrofool · 29-11-2010 11:00am

deise go deo wrote: »

Why bother teach it at all if your only going to do a half assed job?

What is the goal of teaching Irish? The goal should not be "to pass an exam", and if that's the case, then spending an extra 2 years, on top of 12 years, shouldn't be making that much of a difference.

For Chemistry, Physics, Economics etc. you start to go in depth into those tangents of their subject matter.

For Irish the last two years is purely to pass the LC exam, there really isn't that much depth to it at all (bar a few simple stories and poems, that would be taught in primary school if done through English).

The Volt · 29-11-2010 11:00am

how can irish ever progress when we lack a common and official standardization to begin with?

astrofool · 29-11-2010 11:01am

deise go deo wrote: »

Not the greatest example, Welsh is compulsory to 16.

Is that not what the thread is about, making Irish compulsary to 16 (JC)? If Welsh thrives in that environment, so should Irish.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:05am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I thought it would be fairly obvious to you, but fairer in the opinion of those who prove that when the subject is not compulsory -> uptake plummets.

Not when you realise there are a hundred and one other factors, the points race and the fact that English is a higher status language to name a few.

As selective as your study shows.
You yourself said it is the 'poorer' method.
What conclusion do you deduce from that?

Dont know what you are getting at here?

I agree with that, and nothing to stop Irish being involved in that process, if chosen by the pupil - i.e. optional

Why must it be optional?

How did you come to that realization?
You claim that the majority want Irish to be preserved and promoted, yet you yourself directly stated that when optional, uptake plummets.

Can you not see how you are directly contradicting yourself?

No, Think about it, Do most people want their children to learn a second language? Yes
When learning a second language is made optional in England, figures collapse

No contradiction, Simple if you think about it.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 29-11-2010 11:07am

deise go deo wrote: »

In the same way that in the British Case it was a devastating collapse. Did you read the article? It makes the point of the domino effect throughout the education system.

How could there be a devestating collapse? Hardly anyone speaks it on a daily basis. There's nothing to collapse.

See above, Why should it be made optional for the final two years? I can point out the disadvantages, where are the advantages?

So people can spend the classtime on subjects they want/need to study. So the resentment is taken away, so the people who control the language programme are forced to reform it. If they knew compulsory status was to be phased out in 5 years they'd have to do something

Choice? Why should I accept it, There is more than one compulsory subject lest we forget. What are the benefits of making Irish optional, I have shown you the potential downsides.

As above

What? I would like to see that evidence.
And yes you don't learn much in Ordinary level Irish for the LC, Again see the link for reforming Irish in the education system, I am not arguing for the status quo, I am arguing that making Irish optional is not the solution to the problem of Poor return on teaching Irish in schools.

I told you I don't have a study but are you denying the majority of people sitting junior cert Irish could pass leaving cert ordinary?

Well most people do, The majority want Irish to be promoted, I am arguing that making it optional is not the way to do that.

That is not a personal choice and you know it

Do you think English and maths should also be optional? Or dose peoples right to choose only apply selectivly?

For leaving cert they shoudl be optional, yes. Haven't seen English and Maths bow out to a devestating collapse in the UK have you?

astrofool · 29-11-2010 11:08am

As far as I can see, the requirement for a second language is still there, which makes my suggestion above (including Irish in with French/German etc.) making more sense.

The UK dropped the second language requirement completley. On this point, what have been the negative effects of this, why was it bad? Presumably the pupils had to do another subject, so is the UK now ahead of us in technical ability, what did pupils do instead?

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:10am

astrofool wrote: »

Is that not what the thread is about, making Irish compulsary to 16 (JC)? If Welsh thrives in that environment, so should Irish.

Not when you realize that Welsh dident start from being Compulsory to LC(Or equivlant)
It was never dropped, It received the enhancement of being made compulsory till 16, enhancing its status. Not Being dropped to Optional Reducing its status. Thats the point of the thread, Making a language optional dosent make that language thrive, The opposite infact. That is what the evidence points to.

sensibleken · 29-11-2010 11:13am

It needs reform first. The curriculum is woefull, the teaching methods are woefull. I would love to see Irish survive but it will only through love and it wont through compulsion in its current form.

there is zero point in continuing its compulsory nature if its going to continue being taught in its current way.

I have spent hundreds on learning Irish as an adult and gained far more knowledge of the language in a few weeks in Gaelcultur than 14 years in school. And i feel the benefit of it every day.

Some people do not think its valuable, and thats fair enough. I would like ot see massive reform and if that doesnt work in improving standards over a few years then the removal of its comulsory nature after the junior cert

LordSutch · 29-11-2010 11:19am

astrofool wrote: »

Getting rid of silly state translations would also be good.

Absolutely, and while they're at it they could reduce all the Irish translation staff at the European Parliament, that way we'd probably save a few million, which would be very welcome in the current economic climate.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 11:21am

deise go deo wrote: »

Not when you realise there are a hundred and one other factors, the points race and the fact that English is a higher status language to name a few.

LOL, you are going off on a separate tangent entirely, try to stick to the point.

You asked "fairer in the opinion of whom?"
I answered "clearly, by the figures which prove that when optional, uptake plummets".
How does your above comment relate to 'fairness'.

Dont know what you are getting at here?

Try to read your own questions before you read my answers;
You asked is the idea that making Irish optional seen as fairer when applied across the board, or just selectively?

Quite obviously, it is applied across the board, based on your comment that uptake plummets when optional. How can that be selective? Is your comment selective? No.

What do you deduce from that then?

Why must it be optional?

More to the point, why must it be compulsory?
Evidence shows that many students do not desire to learn it and you yourself commented (first comment in this post), that it is a lower status language compared to others.

No, Think about it, Do most people want their children to learn a second language? Yes
When learning a second language is made optional in England, figures collapse
No contradiction, Simple if you think about it.

When did the parents come into it? You just completely move the goalposts.
Are we discussing what the pupil wants or what the parents want?

At Secondary level, a pupil is entitled to make their own choices.

Regarding the collapse in figures - that doesn't mean much unless your sole aim is to have children learning languages.
Uptake in language plummets, but uptake in another subjects must correspondingly rise.

ReefBreak · 29-11-2010 11:23am

Drop compulsory Irish for Secondary schools. It does nothing for the Irish language, and most importantly for the career & life prospects* of our kids.

Instead, make Science, Engineering or Computing compulsory for all, thereby creating a generation that can compete with the likes of (for example) South Korea for tech skills.

I genuinely cannot see a valid argument against this.

*Unless you get a job pointlessly translating EU documents in Brussels.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:26am

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

How could there be a devestating collapse? Hardly anyone speaks it on a daily basis. There's nothing to collapse.

The number of learners. The issue of the effectiveness of the Irish course is not the topic of debate. Again, I dont deny the Current System is not working, I am arguing that Irish being Compulsory is not the cause of the Failure(Which has often been suggested).

I posted the link to CnaG's Education Policy as I believe that as a whole is the most effective solution, A Major part of that is the reform of how the language is tought. It staying compulsory is another necessary part of the solution.

So people can spend the classtime on subjects they want/need to study. So the resentment is taken away, so the people who control the language programme are forced to reform it. If they knew compulsory status was to be phased out in 5 years they'd have to do something

Surly your first point applies equally to English For the LC, I cant think of a single thing, Other than Quotes from Shakespear, that is learned on the LC English course, that wouldent be learned anyway by doing all the other subjects through English

Resentment? Do you really think there are many who resent the principle of a compulsory subject? Or is it more likely they resent the poor curriculum and teaching methods that mean they were essentially wasting their time?

If they resent Compulsory Education then surely that would apply equally to Maths and English?

Again, Why do you think it is possible to make it optional but not reform it? Why do you think it is necessary to make it optional to force reform? It dosent make sense, If one can be done so can the other.

I told you I don't have a study but are you denying the majority of people sitting junior cert Irish could pass leaving cert ordinary?

Yes.

That is not a personal choice and you know it

What?

For leaving cert they shoudl be optional, yes. Haven't seen English and Maths bow out to a devestating collapse in the UK have you?

No, The reason why is delt with(Perhaps Vaguely) in the Article.
But then I disagree anyway, I think English(After some much needed reform) and maths should stay compulsory along with Irish.

Manach · 29-11-2010 11:31am

My counter-argument is that to compete in the IT Sector (which Ireland does very well at present) technical knowledge is essential. This expertise is usually achieved during the course of one's career on an ongoing basis with no assistance from the government.
However, what is also needed is a sense of pride in IT work, especially when interacting with nationalities from across the world. I'm comfortable both with this and with my cultural heritage and that includes the Irish language which distingushes people from this island.
(slightly OT, it is fun sneaking in code comments written is pidgin Irish during inspections)

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:32am

sensibleken wrote: »

It needs reform first. The curriculum is woefull, the teaching methods are woefull. I would love to see Irish survive but it will only through love and it wont through compulsion in its current form.

The experts would disagree:

If anyone still thinks that love of a language or interest in it can
ever be the motivator which causes masses of people to learn it or
maintain it in use, Paulston is unequivocal: ‘…it is always for
reasons other than appreciation of the language per se.’2

there is zero point in continuing its compulsory nature if its going to continue being taught in its current way.

I agree, But if it is reformed, Which it must be, then keeping it Compulsory is not a hindrance but a help.

sparkling sea · 29-11-2010 11:40am

Would be totally in favour of dropping Irish at secondary school level, I absolutely hated Irish when I was in school, and I don't think anyone should be forced to take a subject the hate. Its too easy to find an excuse to not like school when you are a teenager without the state handing you a reason like making you do Irish.

Its a pointless subject for alot of people when they are a teenager and when they become an adult they can take it back up without difficulty if it becomes important to them.

Secondary schools should strive to make students enjoy or perhaps even love the learning experience, this wont happen when they are forced to do a subject which they may veiw completely pointless.

Some people have a natural inclination towards languages, others towards music, others towards science, making teenagers do something they don't want to do, when there are other subjects they may prefer makes them dislike the subject all the more, no matter what way it is thought.

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:46am

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

LOL, you are going off on a separate tangent entirely, try to stick to the point.

You asked "fairer in the opinion of whom?"
I answered "clearly, by the figures which prove that when optional, uptake plummets".
How does your above comment relate to 'fairness'.

Fairness dosent come into it, Practical concerns like the points race etc are what will determine it.

Try to read your own questions before you read my answers;
You asked is the idea that making Irish optional seen as fairer when applied across the board, or just selectively?

Quite obviously, it is applied across the board, based on your comment that uptake plummets when optional. How can that be selective? Is your comment selective? No.

I asked if Irish being optional is Fairer than it is now dose that mean that making English Optional would also be fairer.

More to the point, why must it be compulsory?
Evidence shows that many students do not desire to learn it and you yourself commented (first comment in this post), that it is a lower status language compared to others.

It is a lower status compared to English. As are all Languages.
I wouldn't want to learn Irish as it is now, That has nothing to do with it being Compulsory, That is why the course needs to be reformed.

When did the parents come into it? You just completely move the goalposts.
Are we discussing what the pupil wants or what the parents want?

At the very beginning when I claimed that the majority want Irish to be Persevered and promoted, Unless you think that the education system should change to suit the whims of each new year of students to pass through it.

At Secondary level, a pupil is entitled to make their own choices.

In some areas, not all.

Regarding the collapse in figures - that doesn't mean much unless your sole aim is to have children learning languages.
Uptake in language plummets, but uptake in another subjects must correspondingly rise.

Yes, but Languages are an important are to promote. I dont see the benifit in languages falling and whatever is seen as an easy subject to get points in to riseing.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 29-11-2010 11:47am

deise go deo wrote: »

The number of learners. The issue of the effectiveness of the Irish course is not the topic of debate. Again, I dont deny the Current System is not working, I am arguing that Irish being Compulsory is not the cause of the Failure(Which has often been suggested).

I posted the link to CnaG's Education Policy as I believe that as a whole is the most effective solution, A Major part of that is the reform of how the language is tought. It staying compulsory is another necessary part of the solution.

This solution idea. People not speaking Irish isn't seen as a problem by most. If it was they'd be learning Irish.

Surly your first point applies equally to English For the LC, I cant think of a single thing, Other than Quotes from Shakespear, that is learned on the LC English course, that wouldent be learned anyway by doing all the other subjects through English

'

I think Junior cert English is sufficient for English skills. Leaving cert English is a literature study not learning a language.

Resentment? Do you really think there are many who resent the principle of a compulsory subject? Or is it more likely they resent the poor curriculum and teaching methods that mean they were essentially wasting their time?

I know so. Everyone in school used to say "what's the point in doing this class" and resented the fact it was compulsory

If they resent Compulsory Education then surely that would apply equally to Maths and English?

Not to the same extent because they see more of a point to those subjects.

Again, Why do you think it is possible to make it optional but not reform it? Why do you think it is necessary to make it optional to force reform? It dosent make sense, If one can be done so can the other.

Because I believe the people in charge are elitist snobs who would prefer to have a minority of people speaking fluent Irish and studying higher level(which is extemely difficult) than everyone speaking it to a reasonable level. They're afraid they'll have to dumb down the higher level subject if less people do the subject.
'

Yes.

I don't believe you. Have a glance at the papers and you'll see there's very little difference. Plus they go out of their way to make sure everyone passes.

What?

Saying "people want the language promoted" is not a choice. I meant a personal choice on which subjects they want to do at leaving cert level.

No, The reason why is delt with(Perhaps Vaguely) in the Article.
But then I disagree anyway, I think English(After some much needed reform) and maths should stay compulsory along with Irish.

Well this is the reason Irish students can't get into many chemistry based courses in the UK. Having 6 subjects because 3 of em are compulsory means you can't go into the finer details in specific subjects where necessary

sipstrassi · 29-11-2010 11:50am

Irish is being spoken about in the same way as foreign languages.
It is not a foreign language.
It is OUR language.
If it dies, part of us dies.
We already speak a foreign language - English.

Can't find the exact quote or remember who said it but it's an old one and is along the lines of a nation should guard it's language better than it's borders - to not be able to speak your own language is to forever wear the badge of the invader.

The Welsh language is thriving because Welsh people see it as part of who they are. Wish we could be the same.:(

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 11:55am

sparkling sea wrote: »

Would be totally in favour of dropping Irish at secondary school level, I absolutely hated Irish when I was in school, and I don't think anyone should be forced to take a subject the hate. Its too easy to find an excuse to not like school when you are a teenager without the state handing you a reason like making you do Irish.

I assume you feel the same for English and Maths. Students hate them too.

Its a pointless subject for alot of people when they are a teenager and when they become an adult they can take it back up without difficulty if it becomes important to them.

Indeed it is, But that is due to poor curriculum and teaching methods that fail to achieve results, Not Its Compulsory status, Would you concede that it would not be pointless if people came out with a solid working knowlage of the language.

Secondary schools should strive to make students enjoy or perhaps even love the learning experience, this wont happen when they are forced to do a subject which they may veiw completely pointless.

Indeed, that is why I favor a major reform in how Irish I tought, However I ask again Would you concede that if the subject is reformed and succeeds in making students competent in the language that the perception of pointlessness would disappear

Some people have a natural inclination towards languages, others towards music, others towards science, making teenagers do something they don't want to do, when there are other subjects they may prefer makes them dislike the subject all the more, no matter what way it is thought.

The evidience suggests otherwise, If a language is tought properly then people will be able to learn it, The Gaelscoileanna have proven that. There is no reason the same cant apply more generally, The population of the Gaelscoileanna is no different to the rest of the school population and they can handle two and more languages once they are tought properly.

Rebelheart · 29-11-2010 11:58am

sparkling sea wrote: »

Would be totally in favour of dropping Irish at secondary school level, I absolutely hated Irish when I was in school

Given the views you've expressed about Irishness elsewhere on this forum, I can't say I'm surprised.

sparkling sea wrote: »

I don't think anyone should be forced to take a subject the hate.

Except Maths and English, of course. Oh how useful all that calculus and Keats has been to the average Irish person the minute they finished their Leaving Cert exam. :rolleyes:

sparkling sea wrote: »

Secondary schools should strive to make students enjoy or perhaps even love the learning experience

True, but why direct all the failings of the education system to live up to this ideal into a single subject? I don't know about you, but when I was in school I don't remember people enjoying any subject except, perhaps, Art. There were very many people who despised Maths and knew they would never need it (as opposed to basic arithmetic which is necessary) again after the LC. Yet being forced to learn Maths held them back with other subjects that they were good at. Likewise, with English which drove the average lad in my class ballistic as its novels poetry and plays were such unadulterated, pompous, head-wrecking, insignificant, neurotic nonsense. Where's the fairness in these useless syllabi being forced down students' throats?

deise go deo · 29-11-2010 12:13pm

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

This solution idea. People not speaking Irish isn't seen as a problem by most. If it was they'd be learning Irish.

That is a falicy, The majority want Irish to be preserved and Promoted,
'They' have other things to be doing. Again though, that is delt with in the article, you seam to expect the majority to learn the language out of love for it, and if they dont you see it as evidience that they dont care about it. The evidience i have shown clearly states that is not the case.

I think Junior cert English is sufficient for English skills. Leaving cert English is a literature study not learning a language.

To what end, Surely such Literature study has no tangible benefit, to the student or the state, certainly not enough to justify it being a compulsory subject?

I know so. Everyone in school used to say "what's the point in doing this class" and resented the fact it was compulsory

Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion, They were resentful sure but not over some liberal principle that they should have a choice, They resented being forced to do something Pointless, Not that they were forced to do something.

Not to the same extent because they see more of a point to those subjects.

My point exactly, They dont mind as they can see their time is not being wasted, So, do you believe students would see it as a time waste if they emerged from it with a solid working knowlage of the language instead of the cúpla focal as is the case now? I dont.

Because I believe the people in charge are elitist snobs who would prefer to have a minority of people speaking fluent Irish and studying higher level(which is extemely difficult) than everyone speaking it to a reasonable level. They're afraid they'll have to dumb down the higher level subject if less people do the subject.

And why do you think making it optional in the face of these elitist snobs would be any easier than reform? Bearing in mind that it is the Irish language 'lobby' its self that is actively pressing for reform.
'

I don't believe you. Have a glance at the papers and you'll see there's very little difference. Plus they go out of their way to make sure everyone passes.

Im sure they do as failing Irish means failing the LC. Not something a corrector wants to do to a student.
That has little relevance to this debate as I am not arguing in Favor of the System as it is now, Just against the idea that making Irish is some kind of magic wand that will fix everything.

Saying "people want the language promoted" is not a choice. I meant a personal choice on which subjects they want to do at leaving cert level.

I know, but I don't buy the concept that there must to be choice there.

Well this is the reason Irish students can't get into many chemistry based courses in the UK. Having 6 subjects because 3 of em are compulsory means you can't go into the finer details in specific subjects where necessary

Most comment I have heard suggests that for all its faults the Irish Education System is better than the British one, It produces a more well rounded student and that Third level courses in Ireland are more demanding than their British Equivalent. I am of course wide open to correction of that, but that is what I have heard.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 12:20pm

deise go deo wrote: »

Fairness dosent come into it, Practical concerns like the points race etc are what will determine it.

All subjects are victim to the points system.
I dropped German at Junior level and kept on French for the Leaving, primarily due to points. I wanted to do both, but I had to keep Irish.

If you want to fix the points system - fix the points system.
Making Irish compulsory is not the solution, as the limited number of Irish speakers proves.

I asked if Irish being optional is Fairer than it is now dose that mean that making English Optional would also be fairer.

Yea sure, I don't see a problem with English being optional post Junior level, if you do not have sufficient English to communicate at Junior level, then it is the system which needs to be reformed.
If we reformed the teaching of English at primary level, it could be entirely optional at secondary level also.
I personally do not see a problem with this - English is a functional language, this is why it is important.

(While we are at it, I studied Maths up to degree level for Comp Sci, did Honours for leaving (Hons Gaeilge too) and Maths desperately needs to be reformed also, so much unnecessary junk in there that should be learned only at college level if relevant)

That works on the assumption that people have sufficient English and Maths to operate in Ireland at whatever level it becomes non-cumpolsory.
Irish is non-functional in the vast majority of Ireland so it is not relevant in this fashion, and in the areas where it is functional/necessary, then the local schools can have local rules for local people.

It is a lower status compared to English. As are all Languages.

Not true.
It is lower status to English in functionally English speaking countries such as Ireland.
Not in Germany, Not in France, Not in Russia etc.
In those countries, Irish is lower status to the functional language of those countries.
English would be at best even par, but that's merely a notion, it is lower status also.

It is lower status in Ireland because the functional language is English.
That is not going to change unless the functional language becomes Irish again (considering the economic catastrophe we are in, that is not going to change in the next 50 years)

I wouldn't want to learn Irish as it is now, That has nothing to do with it being Compulsory, That is why the course needs to be reformed.

Missing the point completely.
If it were not compulsory, you wouldn't have to learn it as it is now.
You're putting the cart before the horse.

Personally I wanted to study German and French at leaving cert level, rather than Irish. I got better points in Irish than I probably would have in German anyway, but I had more than enough points and the German would have been vastly more useful when I got to college and industry (plus my brother in law is German, lol)

At the very beginning when I claimed that the majority want Irish to be Persevered and promoted, Unless you think that the education system should change to suit the whims of each new year of students to pass through it.

And I at the very beginning - I asked you, how did you come to this realisation?
How do you know that the majority want Irish to be preserved?
I've only ever heard 2 people say it and both of those people are employed via Irish (one is a lecturer/research and one is a teacher)

When I was at school, we were taught religion etc.
Some students were subject to this, others exempt.
Same should apply to Irish.

In some areas, not all.

Granted, but 2 wrongs don't make a right.
There are certain reasons why Maths and English need to be taught to a certain standard, as it has lifelong implications.
If we are failing to do that, then we should reform those systems as a matter of urgency, and non-priority subjects like Irish can become optional.

Yes, but Languages are an important are to promote.

By whom?
In that case, why are French and German not compulsory in Ireland?

I dont see the benifit in languages falling and whatever is seen as an easy subject to get points in to riseing.

That entirely depends on your personal perspective.
I happen to agree with your perspective, but I'm conscious of the fact that there is an opportunity cost.

Nor does it directly correlate to points opportunism, it could simply be a student selecting a more relevant subject for them.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 12:27pm

Deise, why is Polish non-compulsory in Ireland?

Do you think it should be?
If yes, why?
If no, why?

cyclopath2001 · 29-11-2010 12:30pm

deise go deo wrote: »

More unsupported allegations of self serving Cyclopath?
It would be great if you could provide some evidence, It just starts becoming ad hominum after a while.

It should be self-evident that there is a high cost involved in teaching Irish to people who don't wish to learn it and in providing services and translations that hardly anyone wants.

It is probably kind of me to suggest that the desire for compulsory teaching of Irish to non-Irish speakers who don't want to speak Irish derives from the wish to preserve meaningless jobs rather than some perverse form of cultural assertiveness.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 12:34pm

deise wrote:

]That is a falicy, The majority want Irish to be preserved and Promoted,

I've asked you to qualify that several time now.
Please provide evidence for that statement.

Majority of who? Of Native speakers? Of the Irish population?

loldog · 29-11-2010 12:38pm

So after 90 years of compulsory force feeding of Irish in schools to generations of Irish children, what language is most of the discourse on boards.ie conducted in?

TEIP!

.

Dannyboy83 · 29-11-2010 12:41pm

sipstrassi wrote: »

Irish is being spoken about in the same way as foreign languages.
It is not a foreign language.
It is OUR language.
If it dies, part of us dies.
We already speak a foreign language - English.

No, we speak Hiberno-English.
That is OUR language, it is not a foreign language.
Nobody speaks those dialects except the people of Ireland.
If it dies, part of us dies.

We have more Nobel literary prizes for the English language, per head of population, than England has herself.

We have a long tradition of world renowned Irish authors and literary geniuses in the English language.

Can't find the exact quote or remember who said it but it's an old one and is along the lines of a nation should guard it's language better than it's borders - to not be able to speak your own language is to forever wear the badge of the invader.

Shame/inferiorty complexes are not a sufficient reason to convince me to learn Gaelic.
You cannot shame me out of speaking Hiberno-English, I am proud to speak Hiberno-English. I am proud of who I am.

Why are you ashamed of your own people?
Why do you look down on us for speaking Hiberno-English?

The Welsh language is thriving because Welsh people see it as part of who they are. Wish we could be the same.:(

Hiberno-English is thriving not only at home, but among the diaspora.
I see it as a fundamental part of who I am.
I don't want a personality or language transplant.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 29-11-2010 12:45pm

deise go deo wrote: »

That is a falicy, The majority want Irish to be preserved and Promoted,
'They' have other things to be doing. Again though, that is delt with in the article, you seam to expect the majority to learn the language out of love for it, and if they dont you see it as evidience that they dont care about it. The evidience i have shown clearly states that is not the case.

'

Don't buy that for a second. If you love the language you will learn it. Loads of people in Belfast are taking it up at all ages. I think you need to realise a lot of people don't care as much about the language as they say they do.

That article you've posted is sensationalist tripe which doesn't compare like for like. I'm up to page 12 and the arrogance of the man is driving me nuts. The dropping of GCSE compulsory languages is not a valid comparison, it is more like our Junior cert. Also Irish people have a bigger connection to Gaelic than English kids do to foreign languages. Its just a cheapshot and the fact he couldn't come up with anything better shows how petty his agenda is.

To what end, Surely such Literature study has no tangible benefit, to the student or the state, certainly not enough to justify it being a compulsory subject?

Of course not. People are always goign to be interested in literature. Look at how many people do it here and in the UK where English is not compulsory for A-levels.

Again, you are drawing the wrong conclusion, They were resentful sure but not over some liberal principle that they should have a choice, They resented being forced to do something Pointless, Not that they were forced to do something.

It would still be pointless to many even if it were taught better for those 2 years. Those people have the right to that choice if you're ok with democracy.

And why do you think making it optional in the face of these elitist snobs would be any easier than reform? Bearing in mind that it is the Irish language 'lobby' its self that is actively pressing for reform.

If it were optional and they kept it the same huge numbers would drop it. To prevent that they'd have to change the system.

Im sure they do as failing Irish means failing the LC. Not something a corrector wants to do to a student.
That has little relevance to this debate as I am not arguing in Favor of the System as it is now, Just against the idea that making Irish is some kind of magic wand that will fix everything.

Its relevant because it shows making it optional for the final two years would make no difference to people's ability to use the language.

I know, but I don't buy the concept that there must to be choice there.

Right. Most people are generally in favour of personal choice for most things. Perhaps this is the real root of the argument.

Most comment I have heard suggests that for all its faults the Irish Education System is better than the British one, It produces a more well rounded student and that Third level courses in Ireland are more demanding than their British Equivalent. I am of course wide open to correction of that, but that is what I have heard.

Aye so much so that the tanaiste is urging universities to recognise a fail in higher maths as an acceptable grade to get in. There's no evidence for this well rounded student idea, the British system makes far more sense.

The Status Of Irish.

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