The Status Of Irish.

LordSutch

deise go deo wrote: »

But there already is the option of learning one of those Languages. Why dose Irish Need to be made optional for that?

Irish should be made an optional language so that people have a choice, will I learn French or will I study Irish, maybe I'll do both!

Simples

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Fine so change it to "It is important to me a majority of Irish people are proficient in the Irish language" Do you honestly think the way they phrased the question and answers was a good way of gauging the nation's feelings?

I dident read the questions, just the groupings they put the results in,

Yes I can see that there is a problem with them.
They are quite vague, The two about bi-lingualism are just splitting hairs and the one about preservation in the gaelthacht and cultural reasons is more of a catch all than anything, It could have been easily resolved by asking if they would like to see an Increase in the use of Irish.

However, That said, It is the only survey i have seen. If you were to find evidence to counter it I would be more than happy to have a look at it.

To put it this way, My evidence may be crap, but you don't have any.

The other Evidence I have to back me up is the Indisputable Growth of Irish medium Education, it is(or at least would be if the Government would support it) The fastest growing sector in Irish education.

There are currently 10 Gaelscoil campaigns around the country that have the numbers that are waiting for recognition,
Most notably the Gaelscoil In Ráth Tó county Meath which has decided to go ahead without government support or recognition.

Link

deise go deo

LordSutch wrote: »

Irish should be made an optional language so that people have a choice, will I learn French or will I study Irish, maybe I'll do both!

Simples

Why? Is it worth the potential damage to Irish,
Lets say the report I have is even half correct, The damage done to language learning in Britain was huge.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

I dident read the questions, just the groupings they put the results in,

Yes I can see that there is a problem with them.
They are quite vague, The two about bi-lingualism are just splitting hairs and the one about preservation in the gaelthacht and cultural reasons is more of a catch all than anything, It could have been easily resolved by asking if they would like to see an Increase in the use of Irish.

However, That said, It is the only survey i have seen. If you were to find evidence to counter it I would be more than happy to have a look at it.

To put it this way, My evidence may be crap, but you don't have any.

The other Evidence I have to back me up is the Indisputable Growth of Irish medium Education, it is(or at least would be if the Government would support it) The fastest growing sector in Irish education.

There are currently 10 Gaelscoil campaigns around the country that have the numbers that are waiting for recognition,
Most notably the Gaelscoil In Ráth Tó county Meath which has decided to go ahead without government support or recognition.

Link

Well I do support them, they seem to teach Irish properly so best of luck with them. Would much rather the government funded them than waste it on leaving cert stuff.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Well I do support them, they seem to teach Irish properly so best of luck with them. Would much rather the government funded them than waste it on leaving cert stuff.

Its only waste because the system hasent been reformed, It is possible to see great results if the correct method was applied.

ReefBreak

deise go deo, you seem pretty passionate about the Irish language. And you've posted a lot today.

But despite all that, I still don't see the point of Irish.

Do you not agree that making Irish compulsory for Junior Cert is, but optional for Leaving Cert, is a fair compromise? By Junior Cert, a student is familiar enough with the language to make their own decision as to whether to continue or not.

How about making it compulsory for a student to learn two languages in secondary school? So they could learn Irish & French, or French & Spanish? Or even better, German & Chinese?

Whatever your response, I simply cannot see why anyone could think that making Irish compulsory, while Science/Engineering/Computing is not compulsory is a good idea. The sooner this changes, the better for Ireland.

deise go deo

ReefBreak wrote: »

deise go deo, you seem pretty passionate about the Irish language. And you've posted a lot today.

But despite all that, I still don't see the point of Irish.

Do you not agree that making Irish compulsory for Junior Cert is, but optional for Leaving Cert, is a fair compromise? By Junior Cert, a student is familiar enough with the language to make their own decision as to whether to continue or not.

How about making it compulsory for a student to learn two languages in secondary school? So they could learn Irish & French, or French & Spanish? Or even better, German & Chinese?

Whatever your response, I simply cannot see why anyone could think that making Irish compulsory, while Science/Engineering/Computing is not compulsory is a good idea. The sooner this changes, the better for Ireland.

No, It is clear to me that that majority want Irish to be promoted, Reformed Compulsory Irish is certainly the best way to do that, That is why I support it.

No, If you read the article in the OP you will see the damage that could be done If Irish was dropped as a compulsory subject, You don't have to agree with Irish being compulsory, but I cannot see how someone would wantonly put the future of the Irish language at risk when there is no great need to do so.

ReefBreak

deise go deo wrote: »

No, It is clear to me that that majority want Irish to be promoted, Reformed Compulsory Irish is certainly the best way to do that, That is why I support it.

No, If you read the article in the OP you will see the damage that could be done If Irish was dropped as a compulsory subject, You don't have to agree with Irish being compulsory, but I cannot see how someone would wantonly put the future of the Irish language at risk when there is no great need to do so.

This so-called "majority" (which I don't believe is true) might want Irish to be promoted, but not if that extends to learning it themselves.

Actually, I think there is a need to drop the compulsory status of Irish. We can then divert resources to teaching our kids someone that will have a use in life, such as science/tech, or another modern European language (which does not include Irish).

I'd be interested to see a poll on this forum on the subject.

deise go deo

ReefBreak wrote: »

This so-called "majority" (which I don't believe is true) might want Irish to be promoted, but not if that extends to learning it themselves.

Actually, I think there is a need to drop the compulsory status of Irish. We can then divert resources to teaching our kids someone that will have a use in life, such as science/tech, or another modern European language (which does not include Irish).

I'd be interested to see a poll on this forum on the subject.

I don't think politics allows polls, There was a poll on P.ie a while ago, There were 1323 votes cast with 57% in favor of Irish remaining Compulsory.
Naisc

You may not think Irish is useful but it clearly enjoys the support of a great many people, As for your jibe about not learning it, Many are, Many can not due to work and other commitments.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

No, It is clear to me that that majority want Irish to be promoted, Reformed Compulsory Irish is certainly the best way to do that, That is why I support it.

No, If you read the article in the OP you will see the damage that could be done If Irish was dropped as a compulsory subject, You don't have to agree with Irish being compulsory, but I cannot see how someone would wantonly put the future of the Irish language at risk when there is no great need to do so.

It shouldn't be up to the majority to decide what individuals study. In a united Ireland you wouldn't try and force Irish on kids from unionist backgrounds so how could compulsory Irish be successfully implemented if Ireland was one jurisdiction?

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

I don't think politics allows polls, There was a poll on P.ie a while ago, There were 1323 votes cast with 57% in favor of Irish remaining Compulsory.
....but it clearly enjoys the support of a great many people,

LOL. Not a reliable or reputable source. Please try harder.

People who who truely support Irish, speak it.

Anyone else is just expressing normal courtesy and goodwill, but not a license to waste hundreds of millions of euro.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

It shouldn't be up to the majority to decide what individuals study. In a united Ireland you wouldn't try and force Irish on kids from unionist backgrounds so how could compulsory Irish be successfully implemented if Ireland was one jurisdiction?

Quite easily, Schools within orange areas or with students whos parents object to Irish on account of their orange background would have the choice to teach Ulster-Scots instead of Irish,
Of course Irish shouldent be forced on members of the other tradition on this Island, They have their own Culture. Both Cultures should be respected and promoted. I dont see Irish, or any other aspect of Irish culture as a barrier to a UI.

deise go deo

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

LOL. Not a reliable or reputable source. Please try harder.

People who who truely support Irish, speak it.

Anyone else is just expressing normal courtesy and goodwill, but not a license to waste hundreds of millions of euro.

Dosent really take into account the constraints that prevent them from Learning Irish. You have suggested having A Language tought, not specifically Irish, So which of these are you and the rest who support the proposal learning? Or dose the sentiment not go that way?

I was asked for a Poll, I dose show that there are quite a few people willing to support it. 700+ in that poll.

It this stage it seams that only sources that agree with you are valid.:pac:

Go on then, your turn, show me a poll that supports you,(If you find one it wont be good enough just so you know;) )

Anyway, It wouldent be waste if it was properly reformed and effective.:)

Chuchoter

As a fairly reasonable HL Irish student, I still fail to see the reasoning behind keeping Irish compulsory and I have never seen an argument that is not coming from some kind of political standpoint. Irish is nice the way Latin is nice, but its not useful and shouldn't be taking 4 hours a week off me that I could be spending doing something that will get me a job. We don't have money to be funding the compulsory teaching of a language that is totally useless for most people. Getting rid of the compulsory Irish does nothing but piss off posh, elitest gaelgoiri.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Quite easily, Schools within orange areas or with students whos parents object to Irish on account of their orange background would have the choice to teach Ulster-Scots instead of Irish,
Of course Irish shouldent be forced on members of the other tradition on this Island, They have their own Culture. Both Cultures should be respected and promoted. I dont see Irish, or any other aspect of Irish culture as a barrier to a UI.

Ulster Scots isn't a language. What would schools in Donegal where Ulster Scots is spoken teach? Could we in the south then do Hiberno-English instead of Irish? Perhaps Mid Ulster English in south Derry? Corkonian boi in Cobh? What would be the option for Church of Ireland/Presbyterian schools in Dublin?

deise go deo

crayolastereo wrote: »

As a fairly reasonable HL Irish student, I still fail to see the reasoning behind keeping Irish optional and I have never seen an argument that is not coming from some kind of political standpoint. Irish is nice the way Latin is nice, but its not useful and shouldn't be taking 4 hours a week off me that I could be spending doing something that will get me a job. We don't have money to be funding the compulsory teaching of a language that is totally useless for most people. Getting rid of the compulsory Irish does nothing but piss off posh, elitest gaelgoiri.

Posh? From Connamara? Go back to school.:pac:


It seams some people are of the opinion that if at first you you dont succeed...
then ridicule the attempt and convince yourself it wasent possible in the first place:pac:

My position is that I want to see The Use of Irish Increase. It already is, Slowly, due to the growth Of gaelscoils, But I see the Irish school system as it is now an it is infuriating to see that something that could so positivity affect the Irish language and its use is instead allowed remain one of the greatest impediments to it,

As for the usefulness of Irish, the only person making it useless to you, is you, If you want to use it you can. Your holding your self back.

So you cant see a point to learning Irish, Try using it a few times outside school, give it a chance before writing it off,
If you just reject it out of hand without even giving it a chance then you really will have been wasting your time.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Ulster Scots isn't a language. Could we in the south then do Hiberno-English instead of Irish?

Now now, If they believe its a language then thats all that matters, It is part of their culture, Something they should be allowed express as fully as anyone else.

gimme5minutes

deise go deo wrote: »

He also shows how the dropping of compulsion for language learning in England had disastrous results.

What's disastrous about that? The people who want to do a language could still do it optionally and the rest of the students no longer were forced to study something they weren't interested in.

It's the same here in Ireland. The Irish language has basically no value in the real world as opposed to subjects like I.T., engineering, science, etc... Why should subjects like these be optional, when they are waay wayy more useful to students when it comes to finding a job and putting food on the table than Irish which is compulsory? We have hundreds of thousands students wasting millions of hours every year learning something that +99% of them will never even use when they leave school and that has no practical value in the real world. If students choose to study Irish, thats fair enough, but it shouldn't be rammed down their throats.

You talk about 'disastrous' consequences if compulsory Irish was abolished...I do not think it would be disastrous at all, I think it would be of huge benefit to Irish people that they no longer are forced to study something if they have no interest in it and can instead study something that has real world value. The only disaster I see is the current setup where we have a pointless language being forced down students throats. Its time the Irish language accepted it's place as an indulgence and not something really important.

deise go deo

What would be the option for Church of Ireland/Presbyterian schools in Dublin?

Religion dosent determine nationality;)

deise go deo

gimme5minutes wrote: »

What's disastrous about that? The people who want to do a language could still do it optionally and the rest of the students no longer were forced to study something they weren't interested in.

It's the same here in Ireland. The Irish language has basically no value in the real world as opposed to subjects like I.T., engineering, science, etc... Why should subjects like these be optional, when they are waay wayy more useful to students when it comes to finding a job and putting food on the table than Irish which is compulsory? We have hundreds of thousands students wasting millions of hours every year learning something that +99% of them will never even use when they leave school and that has no practical value in the real world. If students choose to study Irish, thats fair enough, but it shouldn't be rammed down their throats.

You talk about 'disastrous' consequences if compulsory Irish was abolished...I do not think it would be disastrous at all, I think it would be of huge benefit to Irish people that they no longer are forced to study something if they have no interest in it and can instead study something that has real world value. The only disaster I see is the current setup where we have a pointless language being forced down students throats. Its time the Irish language accepted it's place as an indulgence and not something really important.

You don't think a policy that was designed to increase the learning of Languages causing a collapse from 78% to 44% in the numbers learning languages is a good result? To the extent that British University had to drop language requirements for entry for fear of being labeled discriminatory. They even had to scrap some language courses and even departments in British Universities.

Never mind that this is not what was being aimed for, it ended up in teachers becoming unemployed, Languages are considered an important part of education and for good reason, The Collapse of language learning in Britain was nothing short of a disaster.

In your opinion, You are claiming that yours is the common opinion, support your claim.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Now now, If they believe its a language then thats all that matters, It is part of their culture, Something they should be allowed express as fully as anyone else.

So you'd be ok with my kids studying Hiberno-English instead of Irish then?

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So you'd be ok with my kids studying Hiberno-English instead of Irish then?

Instead of? I think iv made my stance on Irish clear, You want to teach it to them knock your self out,(Do they not already know it)?
Hiberno-Irish is not the same as Ulster Scots, There is actually a linguistic basis for it to be considered at least close to a language if not fully one in its own right.

Anyway you asked If I would force Irish on people from the Orange tradition, The Answer is No.

cyclopath2001

deise go deo wrote: »

Anyway you asked If I would force Irish on people from the Orange tradition, The Answer is No.

So, it will be possible to avoid compulsory Irish based on cultural orientation? What criteria would you apply and how would a person qualify for the exemption?

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Instead of? I think iv made my stance on Irish clear, You want to teach it to them knock your self out,(Do they not already know it)?
Hiberno-Irish is not the same as Ulster Scots, There is actually a linguistic basis for it to be considered at least close to a language if not fully one in its own right.

Anyway you asked If I would force Irish on people from the Orange tradition, The Answer is No.

So how could you realistically enforce that islandwide? What if people from Orange backgrounds don't want their kids to spend classtime on Ulster-Scots?

If you let them do neither how do you explain to people elsewhere that they must do Irish? It is all but impossible to be consistant if you're not going to make everyone do Irish.

SkepticOne

deise go deo wrote: »

So What do you think, Should Irish be made optional?

Yes, on the basis that compulsion has failed by whatever vague goals Irish language policy might have or might once have had.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So how could you realistically enforce that islandwide? What if people from Orange backgrounds don't want their kids to spend classtime on Ulster-Scots?

If you let them do neither how do you explain to people elsewhere that they must do Irish? It is all but impossible to be consistant if you're not going to make everyone do Irish.

Look, This is a 26 county issue for the time being, If the language was properly reformed and effectively tought here then should Unification come in say 20 years, The school system would have to be negotiated with the orange community, They might want to do Ulster-Scots, By then they may have no problem with Irish, or they might be as opposed to it as ever, What I would suggest however is that it can be worked out that if a family from an Orange background dosent want to do Irish they should not be forced to, The time could be used for any number of things, It would really be up to the Orange community to decide, They may want to do Ulster-Scots, If so, I say let them, They may not, they may prefer to do something else like have a class for learning about other aspects of orange culture and history,

If you want detail then your going to be disappointed, I dont have any, why would I, Its not a relevant issue now this is a long way off and has little relevance to the question of weather or not people favor Irish being compulsory in light of the up coming election.

deise go deo

SkepticOne wrote: »

Yes, on the basis that compulsion has failed by whatever vague goals Irish language policy might have or might once have had.

Have you read the thread? I have already explained in depth why compulsion is not the cause of the problem and the great potential(and entirely unnecessary) harm that could be caused to the Irish language should it be made optional.

astrofool

So, say we make Economics compulsary, and Irish optional.

For what reason should we change it back the other way? How is Irish more useful than Economics? (Just picking a random subject that's quite topical at the moment).

Why compulsary Irish?

deise go deo

astrofool wrote: »

So, say we make Economics compulsary, and Irish optional.

For what reason should we change it back the other way? How is Irish more useful than Economics? (Just picking a random subject that's quite topical at the moment).

Why compulsary Irish?

Well for one thing, having 100,000 people competent in economics isent that useful to anyone, it may even become problematic, too many people specialized in one area, too many people going on to do business courses etc
Having 100'000 competent Irish speakers on the other hand is a good thing. The more there the more useful it becomes.

The benefits of Bi-Lingualism is well established, We could get this from any languages, but It would take time for the pool of teachers to build up and the nation it self would never become bi-lingual because there would be people learning different languages,
We already have a system that can deliver mass Irish education, All it needs is reform, which if implemented properly would be a relatively quick process, and you have students with working knowledge of a second language, and the opportunity to use it in this country when they leave school.

If this done Irish becomes, instead of a self fulfilling prophesy, ie people learning Irish only to teach Irish and the loop to go on ad infinitum,
You have a self justifying system, where by as numbers of competent speakers grow, services provided by the state become financially justified, And all for not a cent extra than we are spending on it anyway.

Chuchoter

deise go deo wrote: »

Posh? From Connamara? Go back to school.:pac:


It seams some people are of the opinion that if at first you you dont succeed...
then ridicule the attempt and convince yourself it wasent possible in the first place:pac:

My position is that I want to see The Use of Irish Increase. It already is, Slowly, due to the growth Of gaelscoils, But I see the Irish school system as it is now an it is infuriating to see that something that could so positivity affect the Irish language and its use is instead allowed remain one of the greatest impediments to it,

As for the usefulness of Irish, the only person making it useless to you, is you, If you want to use it you can. Your holding your self back.

So you cant see a point to learning Irish, Try using it a few times outside school, give it a chance before writing it off,
If you just reject it out of hand without even giving it a chance then you really will have been wasting your time.

Unless you are the king of connamara, don't speak for the whole area. I'm fairly sure gaeltacht populations realize that Irish is pretty useless for most of the population. As for posh, I am specifically referring to Mr and Mrs Socodu with little Eoin and Maire in a gaelscoil who call them over in Irish in Avoca Handweavers. You know the ones. I'd like to not get into the whole political tir gan teanga lark thats all 26 counties and such, but they are another group of people keeping it on purely to serve their own political wills.

I have very good French and reasonable Japanese and German. I don't have to go out of my way to join conversation groups to use this language, people ask me on the street for directions and it gets used. Irish on the other hand, I have to go searching out people to get about an hours use a week out of it.

If Irish is as useful as you say it is, as someone working towards becoming a doctor, how will Irish help me do this, taking into consideration I will probably (hell who am I kidding, definitely!) have to emigrate?