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The Status Of Irish.

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13567…38

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    #62
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    deise go deo wrote: »
    I assume you feel the same for English and Maths. Students hate them too.
    deise go deo wrote: »

    Indeed they do but these subjects benefit them if and when they have to leave Irieland. They are also recognised as core subjects, Irish is not.

    I can only comment on what I see and as a very grown adult( nice way of saying I am more mature years) I have seen little evidence of the Irish language benefiting the majority, however there are a minority who love it and I would never want to take away they choice of learning it.

    I just don't think it should be pushed on those who don't want it, as I this usually has an adverse effect


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    #63
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Great article here; expresses many points clearly with which no rational person can disagree.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article607071.ece


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    #64
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Where dose it say the numbers wanting to speak it have halved?
    Where I quoted:
    – said the figure of 1.5 per cent of administrative staff able to provide services through Irish amounted to a halving since 2005 when 3 per cent of staff were able to use Irish.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I believe he is referencing the growth of Irish medium Education and the positive attuide of the Irish population tword the language.
    That is so nice, but he supplies no statistics.

    Quite how he wants to increase the number of Irish-speaking administrators without discrimination and without adding to the already high cost of supporting Irish (to little effect), is not said.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Link to the survay I mentioned. Link
    Isn''t that survey the one that was funded, authored and interpreted by the Irish language lobby?

    You originally credited this to the prviously unheard-of epsos and mrsi organisations, who are these?


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    #65
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Yes its quite interesting to see how the pattern is working. Sinn Fein should think long and hard about introducing an Irish language act, might leave them with less Irish speakers in the future.

    Well the evidince suggests that an Irish language act would be good for Irish so I can only imagine it will remain the Aim. If it would harm Irish you have to wounder why the DUP is blocking it.

    Its the main thrust of the article, he mentions it constantly and linking it to Fine Gael. You'd swear Fianna Fail had a hand in writing it. Though it is fallacious, as that English plan took away compulsory status at age 14 whereas I want it taken away at around 17(leaving cert years) for Irish Gaelic. Also look at his references. Using news webites is generally smirked at when it comes to scientific papers.

    Indeed it is, and it attacks FG for good reason, they wanted to take an action that would be highly damaging to Irish. I dont think it was Written by FF, as the Conclusion has several suggestions for FG to put the Government under pressure.
    It is hardly fallacious when he is taking an expert theory that backs his point and then shows how it has played out in practice, What do you think would make it different if it Happned here?
    It just would?

    They won't budge on their system unless their hand is forced.

    So force reform, not the damaging dropping of compulsion.
    I've pointed out how that ridiculous, pro fianna fail, sensationalist paper is not a valid comparison. Cling to it if you want but no one's going to take it seriously

    Again a paper that actively advises how to put the Government under preassure is hardily pro FF :confused:

    Now if you want to contend that its findings are inaccurate I would Ask For Evidence, maybe a counter theory?


    I don't care about substantial benefit. I think choice would leave us with more people speaking it day to day, more people doing higher level and far fewer people doing it at ordinary level. Less people doing it overall for the final two years but more people doing it properly.

    Sorry, but there has to be a reason for it.
    The article I provided shows why that dosent work in theory, and that it hasent worked in practice, Where is your evidence to back up your stand point? The article claimed that FG did not and could not back up its policy with evidence, I would say the same to you.

    Don't know how you'd measure that precisely but look at it this way there's hundreds of schools abroad use the British educational system whereas the only place outside the 26 counties using the leaving cert is in Libya of all places! (though ironically enough they're excempt from Irish)

    How exactly is it Ironic? Do Lyabians want to learn Irish? Is Irish their First national Language?

    Ireland is a small country while Britain has had an empire that encompassed 1/4 of the world and still has a large commonwealth so the difference is hardly surprising.
    But anyway that isent really relevant to the topic.


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    #66
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    Where I quoted:


    That % relats to the amount of people in the Dpt who can deal with the public through Irish, Not the amount of people who want to use Irish.
    That is so nice, but he supplies no statistics.

    The Newspaper provided no statistics, You, I am sure have already seen the graph that shows the Massive increase in the Gaeilscoil movement.
    Quite how he wants to increase the number of Irish-speaking administrators without discrimination and without adding to the already high cost of supporting Irish (to little effect), is not said.

    Well its hardly discrimination if you hire people who have the relevant skill set required for a job, The Civil Service is required to provided its Services through Irish when Requested.
    Isn''t that survey the one that was funded, authored and interpreted by the Irish language lobby?

    Im sorry, You have yet to show that the survay is inaccurate, Counter evidence would be nice, But i have asked for this before in vain, So to quote you.
    That is so nice, but he supplies no statistics.


    You originally credited this to the prviously unheard-of epsos and mrsi organisations, who are these?

    Ipsos Mrbi, Sorry Its been a while since I saw the Survay, It was NUI Maynuth that compiled the Survay.


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    #67
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    Great article here; expresses many points clearly with which no rational person can disagree.
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article607071.ece

    Dident need to go past the headline, The answer to which is No by the way


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    #68
    sipstrassi
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭sipstrassi


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    No, we speak Hiberno-English.
    That is OUR language, it is not a foreign language.
    Nobody speaks those dialects except the people of Ireland.
    If it dies, part of us dies.

    We have more Nobel literary prizes for the English language, per head of population, than England has herself.

    We have a long tradition of world renowned Irish authors and literary geniuses in the English language.



    Shame/inferiorty complexes are not a sufficient reason to convince me to learn Gaelic.
    You cannot shame me out of speaking Hiberno-English, I am proud to speak Hiberno-English. I am proud of who I am.

    Why are you ashamed of your own people?
    Why do you look down on us for speaking Hiberno-English?



    Hiberno-English is thriving not only at home, but among the diaspora.
    I see it as a fundamental part of who I am.
    I don't want a personality or language transplant.


    I am not ashamed of Irish people nor do I look down on anyone.

    I am concerned that SOME Irish people seem to hate their native language and want to scrap it. Once it's gone, it's too late.

    Irish is our native language. Just because we took a language that was forced upon us and adapted it and excelled around the world at it still doesn't change the fact.

    I would appreciate you not reading more into what I said than was actually there. To further go on and comment in an agressive manner about what you thought I meant without actually bothering to ask if it was what I meant shows you would rather have a rant than a discussion.
    So rant away - no doubt you will eventually have the thread to yourself. I for one will leave you to it.


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    #69
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    sparkling sea wrote: »

    I just don't think it should be pushed on those who don't want it, as I this usually has an adverse effect

    Yet Im sure you dont mind English being Pushed on Irish speakers?

    Your basic argument is that because you cant see Irish being Usefull then it should be made optional.

    The problem comes when you start attacking it because it is compulsory.
    If you have a problem with Irish say it, If you have a problem with compulsion Say it, But if you want to use compulsion against Irish then it must apply in equal measure to any other compulsory subject.


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    #70
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    The Sunday Times article mentioned in Post#63 sums up the whole argument perfectly for me.


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    #71
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well the evidince suggests that an Irish language act would be good for Irish so I can only imagine it will remain the Aim. If it would harm Irish you have to wounder why the DUP is blocking it.

    Intuition would say it will benefit the language which is why Sinn Fein support it and DUP are against it. IMO logic says otherwise. Has official 1st language status here and few people speak it.
    Indeed it is, and it attacks FG for good reason, they wanted to take an action that would be highly damaging to Irish. I dont think it was Written by FF, as the Conclusion has several suggestions for FG to put the Government under pressure.

    If you think making the final 2 years of a 14 year course optional then you musn't have a great deal of respect for the language

    It is hardly fallacious when he is taking an expert theory that backs his point and then shows how it has played out in practice, What do you think would make it different if it Happned here?
    It just would?

    Not going to repeat this again. It is fallacious because comparing a foreign language decline in England due to making it optional at age 14 is not comparable to making Irish in Ireland optional at 17. The fact you're refusing to acknowlege this point is seriously weakening your argument.
    So force reform, not the damaging dropping of compulsion.

    Hasn't happened in the last 90years, I don't wanna waste any further time. Plus those who dont want to study it shouldn't have to.
    Again a paper that actively advises how to put the Government under preassure is hardily pro FF :confused:

    It was written at a time when FG were the major opposition coming up to an election. It is pro FF for that reason alone.
    Now if you want to contend that its findings are inaccurate I would Ask For Evidence, maybe a counter theory?

    It doesn't have any findings, it's effectively an opinion piece.




    Sorry, but there has to be a reason for it.
    The article I provided shows why that dosent work in theory, and that it hasent worked in practice, Where is your evidence to back up your stand point? The article claimed that FG did not and could not back up its policy with evidence, I would say the same to you.'

    The paper quotes f*cking BBC articles as sources, you're only accepting it because you want it to be right.

    How exactly is it Ironic? Do Lyabians want to learn Irish? Is Irish their First national Language?

    Ireland is a small country while Britain has had an empire that encompassed 1/4 of the world and still has a large commonwealth so the difference is hardly surprising.
    But anyway that isent really relevant to the topic.

    Ironic because of this discussion and its the only school on earth outside the 26 counties to have the leaving cert and they don't have to do Irish. Even in non-commonwealth countries there's always British exam schools, sometimes use international bacceulaurete but never Irish leaving cert!


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    #72
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    I did my LC this year and did higher level Irish and got a C1. I would agree 100% with the description of ordinary level as "retard level". Higher level however, is quite hard. It is full of bullsh1t poems and stories. I had no time for them, and simply couldn't get my head around learning answers to them off by rote(what we were told to do) so I focused on the oral and aural exam. I can honestly say that I learnt more Irish in the six months where I went to a 1 hour grind each week coming up to the exams then I did in the decade previous. The grind was simply speaking Irish, just talking about everything and anything, difficult at first, but it got easier as it went along. My written exam was a bit of a disaster.

    The way Irish is taught needs to change. Needs to focus more on actually speaking the language, and not reading crap poems which only serve to intimidate people and put them off the language.

    I am not too sure how English is taught in other countries, but I hardly think they would be trying to get students to learn about themes, metaphors etc in Wordsworth, Shakespeare and Yeats when the students can barely string together a few basic sentences for the purpose of the oral exam.


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    #73
    Dannyboy83
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    sipstrassi wrote: »
    To further go on and comment in an agressive manner about what you thought I meant without actually bothering to ask if it was what I meant shows you would rather have a rant than a discussion.

    Yet you are entitled to comment in an aggressive manner about what you THINK I, as an Irish person, want?

    Sorry, but if you are going to make mass generalizations on a discussion forum, prepared to be rebutted.


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    #74
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That % relats to the amount of people in the Dpt who can deal with the public through Irish, Not the amount of people who want to use Irish.
    It's as useful a demographic as the sample taken from 1000 people in your survey. Except, it measures fluency rather than sentiment.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    The Newspaper provided no statistics, You, I am sure have already seen the graph that shows the Massive increase in the Gaeilscoil movement.
    I'm sure you must have noticed the Massive number of people speaking English in Ireland?
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well its hardly discrimination if you hire people who have the relevant skill set required for a job, The Civil Service is required to provided its Services through Irish when Requested.
    Only if it is a condition of employment for a particular job. The hugely expensive requirements imposed by the Official Languages Act applies to the department, not the person. Given that all Irish speakers have a perfect grasp of English, there is ample scope for cost-saving if we simply repeal that act.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Im sorry, You have yet to show that the survay is inaccurate
    It's simply biased and lacks objectivity and independence.. It is based on leading questions, designed to elicit favourable responses. The interpretation throws the answers into the most favourable light for its backers.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Ipsos Mrbi, Sorry Its been a while since I saw the Survay, It was NUI Maynuth that compiled the Survay.
    The survey was neither commissioned nor published by the ESRI, their staff were merely employed to ask the questions set by the Irish language lobby. Quite frequently, when this survey is trotted out by people such as yourself, it is represented as an ESRI survey, is this an attempt to conceal who commissioned and authored it?

    What was the involvement in the survey of IPSOS?


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    #75
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    MUSSOLINI wrote: »
    I am not too sure who English is thought in other countries, but I hardly think they would be trying to get students to learn about themes, metaphors etc in Wordsworth, Shakespeare and Yeats when the students can barely string together a few basic sentences for the purpose of the oral exam.

    Not sure if you mean how English is thought of in other countries, or ??? but leaving that aside, I agree with you 100% re the teaching methods & the current curriculum, which still sems to be missing the point altogether (the spoken word). Will the Dept of Education ever learn?

    I am not 'Anti' the Irish language, but as I have said many times before in previous threads, the compulsive nature of the curriculum must be stood down & replaced with a more pragmatic approach, one in which those who wish to learn the language are encouraged, and those who don't, learn to admire & respect those who do wish to speak the language. The compulsive nature of 'force feeding' will always stifle the love for the Irish language . . . .


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    #76
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    The Sunday Times article mentioned in Post#63 sums up the whole argument perfectly for me.



    Three Questions,

    Do you agree that Poor teaching methods and Curriculum are the cause of the poor results Irish?
    If not, Why?

    Do you believe that if the current system was made optional but left unchanged there would be better success in the teaching of Irish,

    Do you believe resentment is caused more by Irish Being Compulsory or Irish Being tought so badly as to be effectively pointless?







    Unfortunately The article fails to identify the problem. The Article claimed the Compulsory Education of Irish has failed. It puts forwand the Impression that the failure was inevitable and that Compulsion was largly responciple for that Failure..
    Not True. Irish can be tought successfuly when it is done right and compulsion has very little influence on that. That has been shown irrefutably by the Gaelscoils, I can think of no logical reason that the same principle cannot be applied to The Education System as a Whole.

    The problem with the article is that it quite falcely suggests that Irish education is doomed to failure and as such is a waste of time and money.
    The flaws of Irish Education have been identified and there is no reason to saaume that if reformed Irish education would fail.

    Secondally, The article suggests that It is OK to let Irish go. A fair notion in its self, but at now point dose it suggest any reason to other than that it dosent make us less Irish.
    I would have to ask So what? I dont see that as a reason to do anything let alone let Irish go.

    Thirdly, the article suggests that having as many people as possible speaking the same language is a good thing, Promoting the false notion that English is good enough because I wont need any other language to communicate no matter where i go. Compleatly ignoring the proven benifits of Bi-Lingualism and even multi-lingualism



    Nothing new in that article and nothing that stands up to scrutiny.


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    #77
    Wolfe Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Not sure if you mean how English is thought of in other countries, or ??? but leaving that aside, I agree with you 100% re the teaching methods & the current curriculum, which still sems to be missing the point altogether (the spoken word). Will the Dept of Education ever learn?

    I am not 'Anti' the Irish language, but as I have said many times before in previous threads, the compulsive nature of the curriculum must be stood down & replaced with a more pragmatic approach, one in which those who wish to learn the language are encouraged, and those who don't, learn to admire & respect those who do wish to speak the language. The compulsive nature of 'force feeding' will always stifle the love for the Irish language . . . .

    Sorry, brain is a bit frozen this morning! I meant that you would hardly be teaching Shakespeare etc to a group who could barely tell you about their family, hobbies and stuff in English!


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    #78
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    It's simply biased and lacks objectivity and independence.. It is based on leading questions, designed to elicit favourable responses. The interpretation throws the answers into the most favourable light for its backers.


    Yeah, I really couldn't believe how obvious they were being about this too - with the available answers to the questions. "He continued: “Over 93 per cent of respondents hold positive aspirations for the language and want to see it either revived or preserved, while only 6.7 per cent want Irish to be ‘disregarded and forgotten’.”"
    Be like if an immigration survey said

    "Do you think we should ...

    A. Accommodate Muslims in Ireland by introducing Sharia law in some circumstances

    B. Shoot every Muslim on their arrival to the country.

    Then come up with a headline "93% of Irish people want Sharia law"


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    #79
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    cyclopath2001 wrote: »
    It's as useful a demographic as the sample taken from 1000 people in your survey. Except, it measures fluency rather than sentiment.


    Not what you said it was though is it?
    I'm sure you must have noticed the Massive number of people speaking English in Ireland?

    I have, dose that mean there cant be a revival of Irish?
    Only if it is a condition of employment for a particular job. The hugely expensive requirements imposed by the Official Languages Act applies to the department, not the person. Given that all Irish speakers have a perfect grasp of English, there is ample scope for cost-saving if we simply repeal that act.


    Well, I agree with Irish speakers having the right to conduct their business through the first official language of the state.
    It's simply biased and lacks objectivity and independence.. It is based on leading questions, designed to elicit favourable responses. The interpretation throws the answers into the most favourable light for its backers.


    Yes, i know your opinion of it, now can you show that you are correct in what you are saying? The burden of proof really dose lie with you.
    The survey was neither commissioned nor published by the ESRI, their staff were merely employed to ask the questions set by the Irish language lobby. Quite frequently, when this survey is trotted out by people such as yourself, it is represented as an ESRI survey, is this an attempt to conceal who commissioned and authored it?

    I said it was conducted by NUI Maynuth.
    What was the involvement in the survey of IPSOS?

    I believe I apologized for that. They were not Involved, As I said, it has been a while since I saw the survey.


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    #80
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    Yeah, I really couldn't believe how obvious they were being about this too - with the available answers to the questions. "He continued: “Over 93 per cent of respondents hold positive aspirations for the language and want to see it either revived or preserved, while only 6.7 per cent want Irish to be ‘disregarded and forgotten’.”"
    Be like if an immigration survey said

    "Do you think we should ...

    A. Accommodate Muslims in Ireland by introducing Sharia law in some circumstances

    B. Shoot every Muslim on their arrival to the country.

    Then come up with a headline "93% of Irish people want Sharia law"


    So how would you have asked if they wanted Irish to disappear?


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    #81
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    deise go deo wrote: »
    So how would you have asked if they wanted Irish to disappear?

    I would never ask such a stupid question on a survey.

    It would have been more realistic to ask along the lines of

    "Irish being the first spoken language of this country is important to me"

    On a scale of 1-10, 1 meaning strongly disagree and 10 meaning strongly agree what score would you give the above statement.
    But no, they wanted to make a statement so they used questions that guaranteed backup for their comments.


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    #82
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Three Questions,

    Do you agree that Poor teaching methods and Curriculum are the cause of the poor results Irish?
    If not, Why?

    I do agree, but I also think there is a kind of apathy in the public at large regarding the language, people just can't be bothered to learn it, even though they will fill out a survey form stating that they 'Love the language' and that it should remain compulsory in school for ever! the very same people (who in reality) don't take the language seriously at all :cool:
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Do you believe that if the current system was made optional but left unchanged there would be better success in the teaching of Irish,

    Yes because the hatred of Irish would subside, and No because the current curriculum is just as crap as all the previous versions over the last eighty+ years.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Do you believe resentment is caused more by Irish Being Compulsory or Irish Being tought so badly as to be effectively pointless?

    Both, plus the fact that children/teenagers just can't see the point of learning it for their MTV lifestyles.

    I say make Irish optional in secondary school, maybe have a language choice (Irish, French, Spanish, German, etc) in fifth & sixth years, or something along those flexible lines . . .


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    #83
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    deise go deo wrote: »
    The problem comes when you start attacking it because it is compulsory.
    If you have a problem with Irish say it, If you have a problem with compulsion Say it, But if you want to use compulsion against Irish then it must apply in equal measure to any other compulsory subject.

    Equal measure should not be applied because Irish is not relevent outside of Ireland.

    I have huge issues with Irish being compulsory and if a government tried to force it on me as an adult I think it would be a very paternalistic and undemocratic move.

    I also feel that every parent has the right to decide what is in the best interest of their children - and besides fundementals of safety, health, etc it falls outside their remit to decide what is in the best interest of a child on an ancilliary issue like this one.

    As I have said I hated Irish and it has served me no purpose in adult life.
    However I have become very fond of the language now but it is for the sheer sound of the language itself and not for it usefullness.
    Having learned it in primary school, I always had the fundementals, I am quite happy for it to be taught to this level but when teenagers enter secondary school they many question its usefulness and cannot motivate themselves to learn it, no matter how its taught.


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    #84
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »
    I would never ask such a stupid question on a survey.

    It would have been more realistic to ask along the lines of

    "Irish being the first spoken language of this country is important to me"

    On a scale of 1-10, 1 meaning strongly disagree and 10 meaning strongly agree what score would you give the above statement.
    But no, they wanted to make a statement so they used questions that guaranteed backup for their comments.

    That is a poor question, Many if not all Irish enthusiasts dont see Ireland speaking Irish first as feasible, I would answer low on that as a result.

    Unless you agree with the concept as a whole you will score it low,

    I for one would like a Bi-Lingual Nation, In theroy I should score around 7-8 but in reality, because Irish being the First spoken language isent in my opinion either feasible or even desirable I would give it 5 or less.

    Most learners of the language I know are of a similar view point.

    So, That puts us back at square one.


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    #85
    Bottle_of_Smoke
    Registered Users Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    deise go deo wrote: »
    That is a poor question, Many if not all Irish enthusiasts dont see Ireland speaking Irish first as feasible, I would answer low on that as a result.

    Unless you agree with the concept as a whole you will score it low,

    I for one would like a Bi-Lingual Nation, In theroy I should score around 7-8 but in reality, because Irish being the First spoken language isent in my opinion either feasible or even desirable I would give it 5 or less.

    Most learners of the language I know are of a similar view point.

    So, That puts us back at square one.

    Fine so change it to "It is important to me a majority of Irish people are proficient in the Irish language" Do you honestly think the way they phrased the question and answers was a good way of gauging the nation's feelings?


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    #86
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    This is one of countless threads over the last three of four years about the Irish language, the same arguments are trotted out by those for, & those against the compulsive nature of the curriculum, people have a lot to say about this subject, & very in depth views are held by many! but to what avail ?

    I suspect things will never change, Irish will always be mandatory subject & thats that :cool:


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    #87
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    LordSutch wrote: »
    This is one of countless threads over the last three of four years about the Irish language, the same arguments are trotted out by those for, & those against the compulsive nature of the curriculum, people have a lot to say about this subject, & very in depth views are held by many! but to what avail ?

    I suspect things will never change, Irish will always be mandatory subject & thats that :cool:
    Fine Gael want it made optional.


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    #88
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Really? I wasn't aware.

    Thats a start.


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    #89
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    I do agree, but I also think there is a kind of apathy in the public at large regarding the language, people just can't be bothered to learn it, even though they will fill out a survey form stating that they 'Love the language' and that it should remain compulsory in school for ever! the very same people (who in reality) don't take the language seriously at all :cool:

    Ya, but what is there to be anything but apathetic about? The system is still in need of reform. If that was the case after proper reform of the system then you might have a point.


    Yes because the hatred of Irish would subside, and No because the current curriculum is just as crap as all the previous versions over the last eighty+ years.

    I think you over estimate 'Hatred' for Irish.
    Anyway people may hate it less, That dosent mean they will choose it if it is poorly tought. And more importantly, poorly thought of as a subject to learn, It being optional dosent make the curriculum any less crap, Would you honestly choose a subject knowing you will most likely not gain any competence in by studying it?

    Both, plus the fact that children/teenagers just can't see the point of learning it for their MTV lifestyles.

    I would say that all evidence points to the poor curriculum etc being the biggest factor holding it back.

    How many times do you here I hate it cos its pointless/crap/useless

    By comparison to I hate it cos Im forced?

    As for MTV lifestyles, The group that are tought it effectively don't seam to mind it being compulsory and do see it as useful. Why do you assume it would be different if tought effectively in Other Schools?

    [/QUOTE]
    I say make Irish optional in secondary school, maybe have a language choice (Irish, French, Spanish, German, etc) in fifth & sixth years, or something along those flexible lines . . . [/QUOTE]

    But there already is the option of learning one of those Languages. Why dose Irish Need to be made optional for that?


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    #90
    cyclopath2001
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭cyclopath2001


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Not what you said it was though is it?
    That number of people (in the department) wanting to speak Irish has halved? That's what the Irish Language Enforcer said.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I have, dose that mean there cant be a revival of Irish?
    Not along the gigantic scale aspired to by you and your fellow enthusiasts and certainly not by forcing people to speak Irish.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Well, I agree with Irish speakers having the right to conduct their business through the first official language of the state.
    At unlimited expense to your fellow citizens.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    Yes, i know your opinion of it, now can you show that you are correct in what you are saying? The burden of proof really dose lie with you.
    The survey is not scientific fact, it's opinion dressed up as statistics. The survey claims that a massive percentage are in favour of the Irish language, yet very, very few people speak it or make any effort to learn it. Go figure what this means.
    deise go deo wrote: »
    I said it was conducted by NUI Maynuth...I believe I apologized for that. They were not Involved, As I said, it has been a while since I saw the survey..
    You tried to conceal the origin of the survey and got caught out. The author has personally claimed copyright, not the University...what does this mean?


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    #91
    deise go deo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,677 ✭✭✭deise go deo


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Really? I wasn't aware.

    Thats a start.

    Its directly referenced in the OP. The article I posted up was a direct critique of that policy.
    They Did want to make it optional, It was in their old Education policy, They have since withdrawn that policy and are drawing up a new one that is supposed to be based on sweedens Education System,
    I dont know what their position on Irish will be in their new one.

    Lets just hope they think long and hard about it, the make Irish optional stance was not much more than a hunch by Enda.

    Hence my point that they did not nor could not support it with evidence.


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