Foie Gras

Shenshen · 27-10-2010 03:58PM

Confab wrote: »

Load of bollocks. Animal rights activists cry their hearts out at a dead duck yet walk by badly suffering homeless people without a care in the world. Sheer hypocrisy.

How is that hipocritical? When did animal rights activists ever claim that they care for people?

enda1 · 27-10-2010 04:00PM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

I would imagine it involves a central nervous system. QFT.

Why?

CPU, wiring, sensors.
This is essentially enough to capture physical sensory information which seems to be enough to constitute a pain response for some people.

I forgot that this was after hours...pity that logic needs to be suspended to enter.

Shenshen · 27-10-2010 04:03PM

enda1 wrote: »

Why?

CPU, wiring, sensors.
This is essentially enough to capture physical sensory information which seems to be enough to constitute a pain response for some people.

I forgot that this was after hours...pity that logic needs to be suspended to enter.

Your printer has pain receptors???

:eek:

sensibleken · 27-10-2010 04:08PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Your printer has pain receptors???

:eek:

"The old 600 series had rubber skin, we spotted them easy. but these are new, they look like us, skin, sweat blood even bad breath. I had to wait until he moved on you before i could zero in on him"

--Kyle Reese, printer technician

faceman · 27-10-2010 04:09PM

I ate the stuff until I found out how it was produced. Its no brainer really

As for the argument pain is a combination of physical and emotion, given the lack of emotion shown in the thread by some people, does that mean we can force feed them and eat their livers instead??

AskMyChocolate · 27-10-2010 04:17PM

enda1 wrote: »

Why?

CPU, wiring, sensors.
This is essentially enough to capture physical sensory information which seems to be enough to constitute a pain response for some people.

I forgot that this was after hours...pity that logic needs to be suspended to enter.

Of course there is no difference between animate and inanimate objects. That is why, no doubt, you would have no problem throwing a baby into a fire with the same disregard as you would an LDR. And tell me, does your printer go around plugging in all the little printers to make sure they have enough electricity? Or is it single?

enda1 · 27-10-2010 04:23PM

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Of course there is no difference between animate and inanimate objects. That is why, no doubt, you would have no problem throwing a baby into a fire with the same disregard as you would an LDR. And tell me, does your printer go around plugging in all the little printers to make sure they have enough electricity? Or is it single?

Why bring reproduction/relationships into this?
The question was about cruelty and pain.
A baby would exhibit the emotional response which would constitute the action as cruel. What are you not getting here?

At what point is it no longer cruel for you? If the life is a microbe is its "pain" still something you'd lose sleepover? How about an ant? How about a rat? Why so a duck?

(I presume by LDR you mean the electrical component rather than Long Distance Relationship :eek:)

Greyfox · 27-10-2010 05:00PM

enda1 wrote: »

A baby would exhibit the emotional response which would constitute the action as cruel.

So would an animal, have you ever actually touched or looked at an animal befor or do you spend all your time in front of a computer?

So lets say on your way to work tomorrow you come across a dog that's just been hit by a car and you can clearly see that this dog is covered in blood and all 4 of his legs are broken, and you can also hear a very distressing sound coming from the dog. I take it you'd wonder when the binmen will come along to take the thing with no feelings away?

Einhard · 27-10-2010 05:42PM

enda1 wrote: »

Why?

CPU, wiring, sensors.
This is essentially enough to capture physical sensory information which seems to be enough to constitute a pain response for some people.

I forgot that this was after hours...pity that logic needs to be suspended to enter.

Do PETA have anything against eating trolls??

ScumLord · 27-10-2010 06:14PM

kraggy wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32815SIgq1A

Perfect example of intensive farming and it's cruelty. I don't think an animal should suffer for profit. It doesn't have to be done that way, the animals we keep for food should be able to live a content and comfortable life.

There is a chicken farm near me and I do avoid chicken after seeing the state of the animals. I've also seen free range healthy chickens and I don't have a problem eating them because they're happy and content up until the moment of death.

I've never had the opportunity to eat foie gras I think I would try it once just to see what it tasted like but that would be about it.

Gummy Panda · 27-10-2010 06:14PM

I don't like duck from the chinese so can't imagine eating their liver.

pwd · 11-11-2010 07:35AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4YX_iVWIe0

last time i posted something like this it got snipped

gandalf · 11-11-2010 09:16AM

Foie Gras is lovely. I eat it on special occasions. You wouldn't eat it every day as it is very rich.

Agonist · 11-11-2010 09:27AM

enda1 wrote: »

You chose a vegan philosopher to decide for you a question of neurological response?

Do you go to the mechanic too when you have pains in your chest??

This book is written by a woman who graduated from Reed College and from the University of California at Berkeley with degrees in biology and journalism and a guy with a PhD from Harvard. It explores the complex emotional lives of animals. Read it and weep.

Guill · 11-11-2010 10:02AM

Never had it. The thought of it does not sound appealing to me. As a Muscovy breeder i cant imagine force feeding my ducks, maybe i'll try it and see, where can i get it?

Diapason · 11-11-2010 11:10AM

I love foie gras, pan seared and served with brioche and a glass of Sauternes, there's nothing like it.

I've done a lot of reading about its production, and I'm pretty convinced that at the very least there's a lot of one-sided argument going on. The force-feeding thing is obviously very emotive, because people know they wouldn't like to be force-fed themselves. But duck and goose physiology is not like human physiology. Bear in mind, these birds gorge themselves at certain times of the year, they fill a toughened pouch in their necks (called the crop) and digest as they see fit. Having cut a mallard open for cleaning, I got a whole new appreciation of all of this. Analysis done on birds during gavage for stress hormones and the like have proved inconclusive. It's possible (and for my money, probable) that the birds aren't nearly as uncomfortable as you might think.

Anyway, that's not to say there aren't foie gras producers who do horrible things, but that's not gavage itself (as far as it goes) so much as bad animal husbandry. PETA and its ilk will only ever show you the worst.

Ultimately, I'm not sure whether foie gras is cruel or not, and if you don't want to eat it, more power to you, but the usual anthropomorphic response is not compelling. Ducks and geese aren't built like humans.

There was a very good article on the subject written by Jeffrey Steingarten that used to be available online, but I can't find it now. Shame really, because it illuminated some of these issues.

harr · 11-11-2010 11:24AM

Diapason wrote: »

I love foie gras, pan seared and served with brioche and a glass of Sauternes, there's nothing like it.

I've done a lot of reading about its production, and I'm pretty convinced that at the very least there's a lot of one-sided argument going on. The force-feeding thing is obviously very emotive, because people know they wouldn't like to be force-fed themselves. But duck and goose physiology is not like human physiology. Bear in mind, these birds gorge themselves at certain times of the year, they fill a toughened pouch in their necks (called the crop) and digest as they see fit. Having cut a mallard open for cleaning, I got a whole new appreciation of all of this. Analysis done on birds during gavage for stress hormones and the like have proved inconclusive. It's possible (and for my money, probable) that the birds aren't nearly as uncomfortable as you might think.

Anyway, that's not to say there aren't foie gras producers who do horrible things, but that's not gavage itself (as far as it goes) so much as bad animal husbandry. PETA and its ilk will only ever show you the worst.

Ultimately, I'm not sure whether foie gras is cruel or not, and if you don't want to eat it, more power to you, but the usual anthropomorphic response is not compelling. Ducks and geese aren't built like humans.

There was a very good article on the subject written by Jeffrey Steingarten that used to be available online, but I can't find it now. Shame really, because it illuminated some of these issues.

that sounds yum you are makeing me very hungry,its a while since i had any foie gras. i must put it on the Christmas shopping list,where do you buy yours?i agree ducks and geese are not built like humans as you said many birds gorge on food, as a former butcher i have seen this many times,
i used to clean nearly 300 turkeys,ducks and geese for the Christmas.people need to stop conpairing animals and humans.animals are here to keep us hungry people fed.:)

mikedragon32 · 11-11-2010 12:03PM

My teacher in primary school used to tell us all about the disgusting processes used in producing foods like fois gras, black pudding, even certain sausages.

Of course, I'm all big and grown up now and any reservations I've ever held about any of the above were soon forgotten having partaken of fois gras.

In fact, I can't think of any part of any animal that I wouldn't at least try!

As I'm oft heard to say, the only part of a pig I won't eat is its oink.

baltimore sun · 11-11-2010 01:22PM

I dont care how cruel it is, it's lovely,
we're top of the food chain...if you don't could killer whales/some angry bears/pissed off lions and some crocs and a few sharks.

But yea, if you can cook it, I'll try it, why not like? We're carnivores and don't let anyone tell you that we aren't

Guill · 11-11-2010 01:42PM

I think we are omnivores.
i heard rumours of vegitarians before! are they actually real?

ScumLord · 11-11-2010 01:49PM

Diapason wrote: »

Analysis done on birds during gavage for stress hormones and the like have proved inconclusive.

I don't think there's anything inconclusive about it, I have no doubt both sides are lying to support their viewpoint but forced anything is going to cause distress. This in particular is cruel and unusual. Killing an animal is one thing, death comes to everything and being killed by a human these days is as nice a death as a prey animal can hope for. But I do think our domestic animals deserve respect and a good quality of life.

mikedragon32 wrote: »

My teacher in primary school used to tell us all about the disgusting processes used in producing foods like fois gras, black pudding, even certain sausages.

How can making sausages be any more cruel than turning the dead animal into any other pork based product?

Diapason · 11-11-2010 01:53PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think there's anything inconclusive about it, I have no doubt both sides are lying to support their viewpoint but forced anything is going to cause distress.

Why? Because if the proper scientific analysis suggests that it isn't causing distress then the rest is just an anthropomorphic response. I'm not suggesting it definitely isn't cruel, I'm just saying that I'd want to see evidence of it.

For a slightly glib example of what I mean, if you forced me to spend a night naked on a marsh that would cause me distress. Not all animals are distressed by the same things.

ScumLord wrote: »

Killing an animal is one thing, death comes to everything and being killed by a human these days is as nice a death as a prey animal can hope for. But I do think our domestic animals deserve respect and a good quality of life.

Totally agreed. And as I've said elsewhere, I'd sooner be a foie gras duck than a battery chicken!

Again, with proper husbandry, there is evidence that foie gras ducks are pretty happy.

ScumLord · 11-11-2010 02:06PM

Diapason wrote: »

Why? Because if the proper scientific analysis suggests that it isn't causing distress then the rest is just an anthropomorphic response. I'm not suggesting it definitely isn't cruel, I'm just saying that I'd want to see evidence of it.

For a slightly glib example of what I mean, if you forced me to spend a night naked on a marsh that would cause me distress. Not all animals are distressed by the same things.

Totally agreed. And as I've said elsewhere, I'd sooner be a foie gras duck than a battery chicken!

Again, with proper husbandry, there is evidence that foie gras ducks are pretty happy.

It may be possible to create the product on a small farm for a high price where the animal isn't distressed that much. But in this world of cheapness and bulk buying I'm sure the vast majority of foie gras is coming from intensive farms.

I don't think ducks are physiologically able to have pipes down there throught, I would guess it would be similar to a person having an endotracheal tube put down their throught in hospital. That's designed specifically to be shoved down a persons throught and it's still not pleasant having it done.

To be fair I'm assuming the ducks don't like having it done and that having a diseased liver also doesn't cause pain to the animal, but if I'm wrong I'd like to see where I'm going wrong.

Diapason · 11-11-2010 02:15PM

ScumLord wrote: »

It may be possible to create the product on a small farm for a high price where the animal isn't distressed that much. But in this world of cheapness and bulk buying I'm sure the vast majority of foie gras is coming from intensive farms.

Sometimes that's certainly true, but I do think there's an artisan side to the industry that's gathering momentum for all the reasons you'd expect. There's also a place in Spain (I think) producing "natural" foie gras, i.e. the engorged livers of ducks who have stuffed themselves pre-migration. Remember, the over-eating is a natural tendency of these birds, so already things are a little different to humans.

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think ducks are physiologically able to have pipes down there throught, I would guess it would be similar to a person having an endotracheal tube put down their throught in hospital. That's designed specifically to be shoved down a persons throught and it's still not pleasant having it done.

On this one I think you really *are* wrong. A duck's gizzard is completely different to a human's. Because of the stuff they eat, it isn't nearly as soft, it's designed in a completely different way. Again, trying to attach human experience to this is fraught with problems. One other thing, the pipes aren't down there for long. Just long enough to fill the crop.

Again, I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I have some moral qualms which some reading around has gone quite a long way to address. I wish I could find that article I referred to. Gah!

ScumLord · 11-11-2010 03:42PM

Diapason wrote: »

On this one I think you really *are* wrong. A duck's gizzard is completely different to a human's. Because of the stuff they eat, it isn't nearly as soft, it's designed in a completely different way. Again, trying to attach human experience to this is fraught with problems. One other thing, the pipes aren't down there for long. Just long enough to fill the crop.

Again, I'm no expert, quite the opposite, but I have some moral qualms which some reading around has gone quite a long way to address. I wish I could find that article I referred to. Gah!

I would think that swallowing is very different to having a pipe put down the throat, for one thing when an animal has anything forced down the throat it's going to naturally try and stop that from happening by constricting the throat. What the animal is capable of doing to survive shouldn't be seen as acceptable tolerances for farmers. unless the mechanics of the throat are going along with what the farmers doing they will get injured struggling against the pipe insertion.

Diapason · 11-11-2010 03:55PM

Again though (and with the greatest of respect) you're posting about what you *think* a duck would find uncomfortable, rather than what is tested and confirmed to find uncomfortable. There's lots of such information all over the web, but it's *very* hard to find hard evidence.

There was a French test a few years ago that looked into this that didn't find evidence that the ducks were suffering any particular discomfort (I don't know who commissioned the test, so it could be biased) and there are descriptions online from people who have seen gavage in action and reported that the ducks actually waddled towards the feeder to be fed rather than trying to resist. I wish I'd kept a note of all this stuff when I looked into it, but it's just not open-and-shut.

It's hard to know who to believe of course, but there are so many anti-meat fanatics out there (with an entirely different agenda) that misinformation is rife, and there's a tendency for things to be banned on the basis of hysteria rather than fact (which drives me bananas).

Diapason · 11-11-2010 04:04PM

If you have time, have a read of this article. It's a good example of what I'm talking about.

mikedragon32 · 11-11-2010 04:06PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think there's anything inconclusive about it, I have no doubt both sides are lying to support their viewpoint but forced anything is going to cause distress. This in particular is cruel and unusual. Killing an animal is one thing, death comes to everything and being killed by a human these days is as nice a death as a prey animal can hope for. But I do think our domestic animals deserve respect and a good quality of life.

How can making sausages be any more cruel than turning the dead animal into any other pork based product?

Dude, I was maybe 7 or 8 at the time... I don't know! Perhaps he was a veggie!

sensibleken · 11-11-2010 04:08PM

Guill wrote: »

I think we are omnivores.
i heard rumours of vegitarians before! are they actually real?

Yo!

ScumLord · 11-11-2010 04:51PM

Diapason wrote: »

If you have time, have a read of this article. It's a good example of what I'm talking about.

That looks like a fairly well run farm, no worse than what chickens are put through any way, I suppose those are the benefits of selling a high price product.

There's still huge room for improvement in nearly all small animal farms but that example is one of the better ones, it still doesn't provide an adequate life style for it's livestock imo but it's on the right track at least.

I'm not against eating meat by the way, I think it's an important connect between people and nature and I do think it's important for us to think of the bigger picture and our place within food chains and how we affect the animals that depend on us. So I don't mind farming livestock at all I just think we need to have the utmost respect for the animals that die to feed us. We always had that respect as traditional farmers and hunters and it's something that needs to return. If you showed a modern intensive farm to a farmer from 200 years ago I'd say they'd be just as disgusted by it as any vegetarian today would.

Foie Gras

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