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Slight Dilemma

24

Comments

  • #32
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    robindch wrote: »
    <cough> condoms <cough>Standard response -- if christians came from England to America, why are there still christians in England?

    I've had that question from my parents, I found it easier to just say that Monkeys are our cousins, not our parents. The primates that where our parents are long extinct.

    OP, I'm in the same boat. Both of my parents don't accept evolution.
    What I've found though is that it goes beyond Religious belief, but a mild disgust at the notion that humans aren't special.

    I view people that don't accept Evolution like Jingoists. Trying to tell a Jingoist that their country isn't amazing just because they where born there is no different than trying to tell a human that doesn't accept evolution that their species isn't special.

    I've been around the block with the science, the sentimental videos about how evolution connects all living beings on this planet... the whole shebang, but I still keep getting the same questions back from my parents.

    My advice. Let them know your opinion but don't push it. Let them know you are comfortable with the idea of being just another one of the creatures that has evolved on this planet.

    For example, I was at the Dublin Zoo recently with my parents and we passed by the Chimpanzee enclosure. My mother, thinking she was making a joke, said: "Oh there's your cousin, you can see the similarities"

    I didn't laugh, I just said: "You're right, you can see the similarities, here can you take a photo with me beside him?"

    Nicely also, was the fact that the information plaque at the Chimpanzee enclosure also referred to them as our cousins. I think the fact that my mother realized this Zoo that she had been visiting since she was a child was now putting up plaques supporting evolution hit home to her a lot more than any evidence I was giving her.


  • #33
    5cutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25 ✭5cutch


    If your main concern is her lack of understanding of evolution, why not Google "Pope on evolution" and forward the results to a printer? Large typeface may be advisable considering her age.

    Or why not post on the Christianity forum and ask one of those chaps for a useful Christian commentary on evolution? Most Christians are on board.

    Does it really matter? If I'm honest I vaguely understand the faintest brushstrokes of the big bang theory, I'd hope this won't prompt you to come to my house with a bag of books and a blunderbuss! :)


  • #34
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    redfacedbear wrote: »
    If Attenborough is her cup of tea then the short series 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' would probably be ideal.

    I watched some of this last night on youtube and it's a nice, gentle introduction on Darwins theory. I think I may get the dvd for her.
    She's an avid gardener, she must have noticed the changes and variants in plant life and just hasn't put two and two together.
    5cutch wrote:
    I'd hope this won't prompt you to come to my house with a bag of books

    PM me your address, I'll be round directly!


  • #35
    Adrianna Kind Eve
    Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Adrianna Kind Eve


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    ... and moved swiftly on to asking her if she believed in Evolution and Darwinism.

    Maybe this is the problem, it just struck me.
    Usually we start off with "do you believe in evolution". But it's not something "to believe in", it's a fact and saying belief is maybe equating it with beliefs, to the non-evolution listener.


  • #36
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,015 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    attenborough's new 'life' series is starting on friday, i think, and handily, it's about evolution.


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  • #37
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,036 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Are you sure you can stretch to a whole 50p robin?



    You know, you're dead right. It would be preachy. And yes, she does know where the library is if she's interested.
    .

    If she likes reading / learning I'd get her the book: Finding Darwin's God, or 'It's only a theory' which is a book written on evolution by a devout Catholic Ken Milller.

    Apparently they are both quite good. Both available from amazon.

    If she doesn't like reading / learning I'd drop it.


  • #38
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    So here's my dilemma, do I give her some books on evolution? Is it even my place to do so?

    Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?


  • #39
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Splendour wrote: »
    Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?


    He hopes (I assume) at 72 she is going to sit down with a cup of cocoa and a bit of light reading on evolution and have an Angulus moment. (looking into the distance and pondering "ah yea now it all makes sense")


  • #40
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Attenborough FTW. If she doesn't like Attenborough's nature shows then you know you never stood a chance anyhow.
    Since she's a Catholic you should inform her that the Catholic Church accepts evolution, so it's not like she's commiting sin by accepting it. I would really hammer home the fact that most Christians believe in evoluion and it doesn't stop them being good Christians.

    But hey, if she's still not happy to accept evolution that's her beef. As said before on this thread it's not like she's trying to convert your kids or hassel the school science cirriculum.


  • #41
    iguana
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭iguana


    Splendour wrote: »
    Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

    The same thing anyone might achieve by trying to educate anyone. Or of anyone wanting to learn anything at all? Why does someone being 72 mean they can't/shouldn't ever have their mind changed?

    I don't know why but this discussion reminds me of when my grandmother broke her ankle, aged 76. She was really upset and when I tried to cheer her up she told me I couldn't possibly understand what she was going through. I told her I'd broken plenty of bones over the years to which she said "exactly, you have no idea what it's like to get to my age without breaking a bone and then break one."

    We all still laugh at her for that. It's not like life has an embargo on new experiences once you hit a certain age. Just because you've gone through all of life one way, doesn't mean it has to stay like that until you die. If it did what's the point in still being alive.


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  • #42
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    rational wrote: »
    SHE hopes (I assume) at 72 she is going to sit down with a cup of cocoa and a bit of light reading on evolution and have an Angulus moment. (looking into the distance and pondering "ah yea now it all makes sense")
    You'd swear at 72 people should sit about talking about how great things were in the old days and taking their medication.


  • #43
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Splendour wrote: »
    Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

    Knowledge.
    My mother maybe 72, but she's the sharpest, fittest, busiest 72 year old you're lightly to meet.
    She reads a lot. Just not the type of stuff I would.
    She loves to talk and discuss. If there is something new to learn, she's happy to do so.
    Up until a few weeks ago, I didn't realise that she didn't understand evolution.
    I have ordered David Attenborough for her and I believe/hope she will enjoy it.
    Dades wrote:
    You'd swear at 72 people should sit about talking about how great things were in the old days and taking their medication

    Someone better inform my father. He togs out in his tour de france gear daily and does anywhere from 40k to 70k on his bike. Scarily fit.


  • #44
    Galvasean
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    iguana wrote: »
    Why does someone being 72 mean they can't/shouldn't ever have their mind changed?

    Or house for that matter. I remember my grandmother had a really old and crap bathroom. We were forever telling her that she should get it done up, but she was always saying things like, "What's the point? I'm old now. It's not like I'll get much use out of it." Eventually she relented and had a very nice bathroom for a good 8 years.


  • #45
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Yup. She said the exact same thing to me.

    The thing is that Evolution does NOT say we came from monkeys!
    Two of you have stated ths twice now!

    Get the theory right before you attempt to talk down to others about it!


  • #46
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Wicknight wrote: »
    I would leave your mum as she is to be honest. I think if she wanted to know about this stuff she would have already looked into it. She sounds a little in denial, I think people choose to reject evolution out of comfort of religion rather than genuine ignorance, i doubt she doesn't believe in electricity even though she probably can explain how that works.

    But she is getting on a bit and perhaps she is happier. She isn't filling your daughters head with Creationist nonsense, she isn't trying to get school boards closed down etc.

    But if the woman is a Catholic thay type of blind faith is not what Catholicism encourages and she should be told that and told what the catholic position on evolution is.


  • #47
    ISAW
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    I've had that question from my parents, I found it easier to just say that Monkeys are our cousins, not our parents.

    Exactly! Common ansestor!
    And this sharing "90 something per cent" stuff is misleading to. We might "share fifty something percent" with a tree!
    The primates that where our parents are long extinct.

    But evidence for them exists! Similar primats existed.
    OP, I'm in the same boat. Both of my parents don't accept evolution.
    What I've found though is that it goes beyond Religious belief, but a mild disgust at the notion that humans aren't special.

    But they are special. They are thinking about it. Even thinking you are not special makes you special.
    I view people that don't accept Evolution like Jingoists. Trying to tell a Jingoist that their country isn't amazing just because they where born there is no different than trying to tell a human that doesn't accept evolution that their species isn't special.

    So what? Whether they accept evolution or not their species is special.

    For example, I was at the Dublin Zoo recently with my parents and we passed by the Chimpanzee enclosure. My mother, thinking she was making a joke, said: "Oh there's your cousin, you can see the similarities"

    So much so early heart transplants used their hearts? Did you ask then if white people are similar to black people and if not why not? how do they judge similar?

    Nicely also, was the fact that the information plaque at the Chimpanzee enclosure also referred to them as our cousins. I think the fact that my mother realized this Zoo that she had been visiting since she was a child was now putting up plaques supporting evolution hit home to her a lot more than any evidence I was giving her.

    I suggest you read about authoritarianism.
    http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

    Probably better than blaiming it on religion, although religion has it too.


  • #48
    Goduznt Xzst
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Goduznt Xzst


    ISAW wrote: »
    ....

    You remind me of those drunk fellows you see stumbling around, putting their fists up in nice Pubs, slurring "yousss lookin' for a fight... you lookin' at me, I'll bate you..." when everybody else is having a quiet pint and wondering what the hell you're on about.


  • #49
    Splendour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Knowledge.
    My mother maybe 72, but she's the sharpest, fittest, busiest 72 year old you're lightly to meet.
    She reads a lot. Just not the type of stuff I would.
    She loves to talk and discuss. If there is something new to learn, she's happy to do so.
    Up until a few weeks ago, I didn't realise that she didn't understand evolution.
    I have ordered David Attenborough for her and I believe/hope she will enjoy it.


    If she doesn't read the type of stuff you read she may feel you're imposing this on her. However, should she read it, sounds like you could be on for a decent discussion!
    Though how would you feel if she bought a bible or a Christian book? Would you be open to reading it?


  • #50
    stevoslice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭stevoslice


    Splendour wrote: »
    Though how would you feel if she bought a bible or a Christian book? Would you be open to reading it?
    Its a DVD. and i'm sure i'm speaking for most here when i say that if a christian/catholic book was released with a reasonable, logical and non-dogmatic approach to proving the existence of god, then i would give it a shot.

    But that's about as likely to happen as intelligent life evolving on a remote hunk of rock. ;-)


  • #51
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Goduznt Xzst wrote: »
    You remind me of those drunk fellows you see stumbling around, putting their fists up in nice Pubs, slurring "yousss lookin' for a fight... you lookin' at me, I'll bate you..." when everybody else is having a quiet pint and wondering what the hell you're on about.


    So when a poster writes clear evidence based post which systamatically distructs other posters arguments, you call him drunk? D'ont bother dealing with the evidence. Dont deal with the substantive points he is making. No, seek to Ridicule. However ridicule is no substitute for clear logical distruction of a point of view which ISAW frequently gives. Having said that from reading your previous posts you are not the best at offering evidence for your arguments. I thought atheists would appreciate an evidence based approach to argument and discussion. Keep up the ridicule, its easy for people to support, but it actually contributes very little.:rolleyes:


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  • #52
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Dades wrote: »
    You'd swear at 72 people should sit about talking about how great things were in the old days and taking their medication.

    And you would swear that a 72 year old would be sitting around reading books about evolution and having a moments of athesitic clarity about how evolution calls into question all of her beliefs "how could I have been so wrong and so stupid". I dare say the woman in question has heard the basics about evolution already and still chooses to not believe it. Now if she does not understand the concepts behind evolution at 72 it would be pointless giving her a DVD or book on it now. She would probably not have the patience or the time to bother with it.

    Still; not to late to bring the woman to the light thought. Make her see things as they are. Convinve her. Believe woman believe.


  • #53
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Splendour wrote: »
    Though how would you feel if she bought a bible or a Christian book? Would you be open to reading it?


    The vast majority of Christians believe in evolution. I dont see your point.


  • #54
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    rational wrote: »
    And you would swear that a 72 year old would be sitting around reading books about evolution.
    ?? Why wouldn't they ?? My mother, coincidentally, is also 72, is a member of a book club who've met every month for 20 years, and does not sit about reading "The Brief" when Nationwide isn't on.
    rational wrote: »
    I dare say the woman in question has heard the basics about evolution already i.e. and still chooses to not believe it. Now if she does not understand the concepts behind evolution at 72 I dare say it would be pointless giving her a DVD or book on it now as she would probably not have the patience or the time to bother with it.
    I daresay she hasn't heard a correct summation of evolution. Most young people are fairly clueless and they would have covered it in school.

    Honestly, how much patience of time does it require to watch a David Attenborough DVD if someone goes to the trouble of getting it for you?


  • #55
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    Dades wrote: »
    ?? Why wouldn't they ?? My mother, coincidentally, is also 72, is a member of a book club who've met every month for 20 years, and does not sit about reading "The Brief" when Nationwide isn't on.

    I daresay she hasn't heard a correct summation of evolution. Most young people are fairly clueless and they would have covered it in school.

    Honestly, how much patience of time does it require to watch a David Attenborough DVD if someone goes to the trouble of getting it for you?


    Its not that she would not have the intellect. I just think its kinda condesending to present someone of her age with a book about evolution with the subtext "you might learn something". How much do you think is she going to learn from a DVD. DO you really think if she looked at it she would change her beliefs. Unless she has been living in somekind of parallell universe where evolution has not been discovered yet I d say she has been exposed to the basics. Each to their own.

    Most people know about evolution as they are ever going to need to .


  • #56
    ColmDawson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭ColmDawson


    rational wrote: »
    Its not that she would not have the intellect. I just think its kinda condesending to present someone of her age with a book about evolution with the subtext "you might learn something". How much do you think is she going to learn from a DVD. DO you really think if she looked at it she would change her beliefs. Unless she has been living in somekind of parallell universe where evolution has not been discovered yet I d say she has been exposed to the basics. Each to their own.

    Most people know about evolution as they are ever going to need to .
    I love how you suggest buying her an informative DVD would be condescending, but you apparently don't think it's condescending to talk about old people as if they ought to be given a pat on the head and left to wheedle away their remaining years in carefree ignorance.


  • #57
    rational
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 357 ✭✭rational


    ColmDawson wrote: »
    I love how you suggest buying her an informative DVD would be condescending, but you apparently don't think it's condescending to talk about old people as if they ought to be given a pat on the head and left to wheedle away their remaining years in carefree ignorance.

    No I dont think they should be left to be given a pat on the back or anything such. I just think the ideas of trying to "educate" someone about evolution by giving them a DVD or a book is pretty thick


  • #58
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,617 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    rational wrote: »
    I just think the ideas of trying to "educate" someone about evolution by giving them a DVD or a book is pretty thick
    I don't know why you'd think this. I buy books and DVDs for my kids, I swap interesting books with my friends... what's different?


  • #59
    midlandsmissus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    Yup. She said the exact same thing to me.

    I think it's a very good question. Why would a common ancestor evolve into both apes and humans, when it could have just evolved into humans?

    MOD NOTE
    The answers to this question and others have been moved to a new thread.
    Folks, please stay on-topic in this thread, or reply in the new one.
    Dades


  • #60
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    rational wrote: »
    I just think its kinda condesending to present someone of her age with a book about evolution with the subtext "you might learn something".
    Perhaps Beruthiel's mum helped her out years ago, and Beruthiel's just returning the favour?


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  • #61
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,856 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    rational wrote: »
    No I dont think they should be left to be given a pat on the back or anything such. I just think the ideas of trying to "educate" someone about evolution by giving them a DVD or a book is pretty thick

    Send her back to school then?


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