Slight Dilemma

Beruthiel

So, went to visit my parents at the weekend.
I'm sitting in the kitchen with my mother and daughter and we brushed on life after death (I tend to try and not discuss religion or life after death with her, don't want to burst her bubble at her age, 72) anyway this time she asked me straight out so I answered honestly that there isn't one and moved swiftly on to asking her if she believed in Evolution and Darwinism.
Apparently she doesn't. She doesn't believe we came from monkeys.
My daughter tells me the look of shock on my face was hilarious. She was further amused by the fact I was speechless.

So here's my dilemma, do I give her some books on evolution? Is it even my place to do so?
My daughter thinks it would be the same as her giving me a book on religion.
But this is an accepted, scientific theory, not a made up story, so I'm not sure I agree.
So, do I leave the woman in her comfortable cocoon, or give her a book that explains evolution simply?
I'm not sure she would read something as detailed as The Selfish Gene for instance, are there simpler ones?

Am between two minds on this one.

Dont be at yourself

To be honest, it's not really going to make a difference, is it? If she's happy in what she believes and it isn't impacting negatively on her life, leave her at it. It's probably a mammoth task convincing a woman of 72 that the beliefs she's held - even loosely - all of her life are poppycock.

Better off giving the books to your daughter!

Dades

Is your Mum a catholic?

If she is, then surely the RC Church's reluctant 'endorsement' of evolution should be evidence enough that it has to be taken seriously. The church would never have done this unless they knew the pressure of evidence was too weighty for them to ignore.

As for books to read, I think you'd want to know she was open to convincing before going down that route. Maybe a DVD on the subject from someone trustable for that generation like David Attenborough might be an option. Dawkins has the devil's rep at the moment.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's probably a mammoth task convincing a woman of 72 that the beliefs she's held - even loosely - all of her life are poppycock.

I don't think Beruthiel is trying to rob her of God - only get her straight on evolution! 72 yr olds can learn too!

Beruthiel

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

It's probably a mammoth task convincing a woman of 72 that the beliefs she's held - even loosely - all of her life are poppycock.

No doubt, you're right.
Think I'm still in shock is all.

Better off giving the books to your daughter!

My daughter is at the age where 'she knows more than I do' so I'd be preaching to the choir there.

Beruthiel

Dades wrote: »

Is your Mum a catholic?

Yes.

As for books to read, I think you'd want to know she was open to convincing before going down that route. Maybe a DVD on the subject from someone trustable for that generation like David Attenborough might be an option. Dawkins has the devil's rep at the moment.

It would have to be David Attenborough, she has a set against Dawkins, don't know from where as she certainly hasn't read any of his books.

I don't think Beruthiel is trying to rob her of God

Certainly not. I would consider it terribly cruel to take that away from her now.

only get her straight on evolution!

That's it. Surely it's not cruel to inform her on that?

72 yr olds can learn too!

She's not a fool at all. I just don't think she has read or seen anything to change the way she thinks and I don't believe she has put a lot of thought into it in the first place.

strobe

Can only speak for myself but I'd just leave it. I'm sure she knows where the library is if she wants to read up on evolution, it might seem a bit preachy if were to actually buy her a book and tell her to read it, ye know.

robindch

Beruthiel wrote: »

do I leave the woman in her comfortable cocoon, or give her a book that explains evolution simply?

Ask her if she's interested in getting something that describes humanity's current understanding of itself, and if she says no -- which I'll bet you 50p she'll say -- then drop the topic permanently.

If she says yes, then I can't really recommend anything since I haven't seen that many entry-level books on evolution. Amazon might help.

Beruthiel

Are you sure you can stretch to a whole 50p robin?

strobe wrote: »

Can only speak for myself but I'd just leave it. I'm sure she knows where the library is if she wants to read up on evolution, it might seem a bit preachy if were to actually buy her a book and tell her to read it, ye know.

You know, you're dead right. It would be preachy. And yes, she does know where the library is if she's interested.
.

seamus

My Mum accepts that "scientists" believe that evolution is the way it worked and understands the basics of evolution in that organisms appear to "adapt" to their environments.
But then a few weeks back (over a few beers), I got the killer question - "If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?", which illustrated to me that she doesn't actually understand the theory as much as she understands that it's scientific fact.

I imagine this is the primary reason why you'll find opposition to evolutionary theory. Exactly like Lisbon, people don't understand it, never read it, therefore don't accept it.

I did leaving cert biology and I have to admit that I didn't properly understand the concept up to a couple of years ago. Evolution make biology easier because it provides a tie through which you can compare and understand the biologies of different creatures. Yet most books are page or two covering the history of evolution and the familiar diagram of a cell changing into a fish, to a monkey and then a man.

I can imagine that anyone who finished school before 1990 probably had nothing but the briefest introduction to the concept (if they were taught at all).

I'd really only offer her more information if she asked for it.

Beruthiel

seamus wrote: »

"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

Yup. She said the exact same thing to me.

nozzferrahhtoo

I would personally leave her alone on it if it was my mother.

Do not get me wrong, I do not subscribe to the “She is old, leave her with her comfortable fantasy” line of argument you might get from some people. I have more respect for older people than to wrap them in cotton wool and tip toe around them in case I hurt their feelings. They have seen and done more than I ever have, they are not delicate bits of china, they can handle the truth. They can probably handle what life throws at them better than I myself can given the experience and wisdom they have to draw on.

However, the line of argument I would use is that it simply does not matter. Personal faith kept personal is A-OK with me and I have never been out to convert people just for the sake of making them think like me. People can believe what they want I simply do not care.

Religion for me is fine until it is used as part of a discourse on another topic. Telling science what it can or can not research, attempting to influence what we teach our children in schools, commenting on the morality of certain sexual alignments, dictating morality and ethics, setting government policy… whatever it may be if “god” is used to influence these things then by all means question and combat the person saying it and point out that if they want to use “god” in their arguments then the onus is on them to establish this entity actually exists.

But a person of personal faith… why bother unless they personally express interest in your input... or their faith, or in this case scientific ignorance, is somehow negatively impacting on their lives?

Her ignorance of evolutionary concepts impacts or affects no one. It simply does not matter. Meanwhile there are people like our very own Minister of Science who go around attempting to launch anti-evolution books and what a Science minister thinks about science actually DOES have impact on people.

Dades

The fact that her own religion accepts evolution moves this topic out of the realm of God and Heaven and whatnot - and turns it simply into something she can know without it being a threat.

Knowing that - I'd find it hard to let it drop myself!

robindch

Dades wrote: »

surely the RC Church's reluctant 'endorsement' of evolution should be evidence enough that it has to be taken seriously. The church would never have done this unless they knew the pressure of evidence was too weighty for them to ignore.

<cough> condoms <cough>

seamus wrote: »

I got the killer question - "If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

Standard response -- if christians came from England to America, why are there still christians in England?

Dades

robindch wrote: »

<cough> condoms <cough>

I hope you're not choking on one.

5uspect

I had written a long reply but my wireless connection dropped...

Anyhoo, I have a good friend, and former work colleague,old time Catholic, in his 60s who has similar views. For the most part it's harmless. I tried explaining evolution to him before and its importance in the context of the research being performed in the University research institution were we worked. But I fell on deaf hears. It just sounded too silly to him.

The only time where I got annoyed was when he claimed that the Magdalene Laundries were a great thing and should be brought back. Needless to say I took the bait.

I think its difficult to shift someone of that age from a philosophical position no matter how daft. Even my own parents, still relatively young, have some homophobic and racist views that can seep out in conversations. I'm finding that getting annoyed doesn't help.

I don't think letting it go is a good option either so it is a troublesome dilemma.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Human instinct by Robert Winston is very user friendly and he's religious himself

Mark Hamill

Beruthiel wrote: »

So, went to visit my parents at the weekend.
I'm sitting in the kitchen with my mother and daughter and we brushed on life after death (I tend to try and not discuss religion or life after death with her, don't want to burst her bubble at her age, 72) anyway this time she asked me straight out so I answered honestly that there isn't one and moved swiftly on to asking her if she believed in Evolution and Darwinism.
Apparently she doesn't. She doesn't believe we came from monkeys.
My daughter tells me the look of shock on my face was hilarious. She was further amused by the fact I was speechless.

So here's my dilemma, do I give her some books on evolution? Is it even my place to do so?
My daughter thinks it would be the same as her giving me a book on religion.
But this is an accepted, scientific theory, not a made up story, so I'm not sure I agree.
So, do I leave the woman in her comfortable cocoon, or give her a book that explains evolution simply?
I'm not sure she would read something as detailed as The Selfish Gene for instance, are there simpler ones?

Am between two minds on this one.

I dont see the problem. Giving her a book is not the same as forcing her to read it, and its not as if evolution being true would in of itself contradict the idea of an afterlife.
I'm not sure what book though, I haven't read any (all I know about evoluiton has been garnered here on boards or from sites like wikipedia or youtube). I cant remember if "A Short History of Nearly Everything" by deals a lot with evolution, its a great scientific book, though, and real easy to read.

Mark Hamill

Beruthiel wrote: »

seamus wrote:

"If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

Yup. She said the exact same thing to me.

Maybe you could "con" her into reading up on it. If this comes up again, simply ask her where she heard that and get her to show you (dont contradict it at first, unless she says something like "Oh, Isn't that evolution?").
If she isn't interested in defending her position, then there is probably little you could do anyway. If she is, then simply encouraging her to read up to explain where she heard that ol' goat may get her to the right sources of information (if she does actually have a source, then chances are its creationist, and they are very easy to debunk).

redfacedbear

If Attenborough is her cup of tea then the short series 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' would probably be ideal. It was on last year around Darwin's anniversary - not on the BBC player anymore but no doubt it's obtainable somewhere. Other than that I'd keep stressing that evolution is not incompatible with catholicism and leave her to it!

Zombrex

I would leave your mum as she is to be honest. I think if she wanted to know about this stuff she would have already looked into it. She sounds a little in denial, I think people choose to reject evolution out of comfort of religion rather than genuine ignorance, i doubt she doesn't believe in electricity even though she probably can explain how that works.

But she is getting on a bit and perhaps she is happier. She isn't filling your daughters head with Creationist nonsense, she isn't trying to get school boards closed down etc.

ColmDawson

seamus wrote: »

I got the killer question - "If we came from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"

That is, it makes you want to kill yourself.

rational

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

To be honest, it's not really going to make a difference, is it? If she's happy in what she believes and it isn't impacting negatively on her life, leave her at it. It's probably a mammoth task convincing a woman of 72 that the beliefs she's held - even loosely - all of her life are poppycock.

Better off giving the books to your daughter!

No, You have got it all wrong shes 72 there is still plenty of time for her to understand the truth. Dawkins and lashings of tomorrows world DVDs should do the trick. Burst her bubble. No use living a lie I say.


http://www.ralphmag.org/FM/why.html

There one for yea lads. One of my favourites. If you read the end of The stranger

rational

strobe wrote: »

Can only speak for myself but I'd just leave it. I'm sure she knows where the library is if she wants to read up on evolution, it might seem a bit preachy if were to actually buy her a book and tell her to read it, ye know.

Common Sense!! I've just fell off my chair.

strobe

rational wrote: »

Common Sense!! I've just fell off my chair.

Chairs are tricky.

Bookworm85

redfacedbear wrote: »

If Attenborough is her cup of tea then the short series 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' would probably be ideal. It was on last year around Darwin's anniversary - not on the BBC player anymore but no doubt it's obtainable somewhere. Other than that I'd keep stressing that evolution is not incompatible with catholicism and leave her to it!

+1 on this.

Attenborough's 'Life on Earth' series is a pretty good one too.

robindch

strobe wrote: »

Chairs are tricky.

Tell that to any Banksie

Zillah

She's 72. I thought the answer was pretty damn obvious for God's sake.





Infect her with Methicillin Resistant Staphylococcus Aureus and then ask her if she wants the antibiotics they have evolved resistance to or if she wants the newer ones that still work.

Tick tock moma.

Pushtrak

If evolution is true, why can't I fly?

marco_polo

redfacedbear wrote: »

If Attenborough is her cup of tea then the short series 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' would probably be ideal. It was on last year around Darwin's anniversary - not on the BBC player anymore but no doubt it's obtainable somewhere. Other than that I'd keep stressing that evolution is not incompatible with catholicism and leave her to it!

By strange coincidence it is on Network Two this (Wednesday) evening @7pm.

keppler

Beruthiel wrote: »

So, went to visit my parents at the weekend.
I'm sitting in the kitchen with my mother and daughter and we brushed on life after death (I tend to try and not discuss religion or life after death with her, don't want to burst her bubble at her age, 72) anyway this time she asked me straight out so I answered honestly that there isn't one and moved swiftly on to asking her if she believed in Evolution and Darwinism.
Apparently she doesn't. She doesn't believe we came from monkeys.
My daughter tells me the look of shock on my face was hilarious. She was further amused by the fact I was speechless.

So here's my dilemma, do I give her some books on evolution? Is it even my place to do so?
My daughter thinks it would be the same as her giving me a book on religion.
But this is an accepted, scientific theory, not a made up story, so I'm not sure I agree.
So, do I leave the woman in her comfortable cocoon, or give her a book that explains evolution simply?
I'm not sure she would read something as detailed as The Selfish Gene for instance, are there simpler ones?

Am between two minds on this one.

Man its good to hear someone else is having the same problem as myself!!
I met my parents couple of weeks ago and they were talking about why there are not too many priests around anymore...well I would've thought that the answer was obvious i said....que child rape, sexism, condoms, aids and the general fact that the RCC is nothing but a scurge on mankind.......This didnt go down well with my father,

cut long story short the row ended when he tried to tell me that the problemwith the RCC, jewish muslim and islamic religions is that their full of and ran by bad people ..............when i tried to tell him that muslim and islam are the same he told me i didnt know what i was talking about and stormed out of the room...........:(

Now i know i took my argument further than you but bear in mind my father is only 55, fairly intelligent(i thought) and has not gone to mass in approx 20yrs bar the odd funeral and such........if thats what his reaction was to me preaching to him then I wouldnt like to see your 72yr old mum if you choose to take it any further

Also if you have any other siblings try to be wary of them too....... if they dont think along your lines you could inadvertently end up falling out with them????

Ickle Magoo

I think it depends on the kind of relationship you have with your mother, B. Would she appreciate a book, or discussion or DVD about it or would that just really annoy or irritate her? I'm all for opening the lines of communication on such topics and triggering some vigorous debate but not at the expense of a close relationship.

Goduznt Xzst

robindch wrote: »

<cough> condoms <cough>Standard response -- if christians came from England to America, why are there still christians in England?

I've had that question from my parents, I found it easier to just say that Monkeys are our cousins, not our parents. The primates that where our parents are long extinct.

OP, I'm in the same boat. Both of my parents don't accept evolution.
What I've found though is that it goes beyond Religious belief, but a mild disgust at the notion that humans aren't special.

I view people that don't accept Evolution like Jingoists. Trying to tell a Jingoist that their country isn't amazing just because they where born there is no different than trying to tell a human that doesn't accept evolution that their species isn't special.

I've been around the block with the science, the sentimental videos about how evolution connects all living beings on this planet... the whole shebang, but I still keep getting the same questions back from my parents.

My advice. Let them know your opinion but don't push it. Let them know you are comfortable with the idea of being just another one of the creatures that has evolved on this planet.

For example, I was at the Dublin Zoo recently with my parents and we passed by the Chimpanzee enclosure. My mother, thinking she was making a joke, said: "Oh there's your cousin, you can see the similarities"

I didn't laugh, I just said: "You're right, you can see the similarities, here can you take a photo with me beside him?"

Nicely also, was the fact that the information plaque at the Chimpanzee enclosure also referred to them as our cousins. I think the fact that my mother realized this Zoo that she had been visiting since she was a child was now putting up plaques supporting evolution hit home to her a lot more than any evidence I was giving her.

5cutch

If your main concern is her lack of understanding of evolution, why not Google "Pope on evolution" and forward the results to a printer? Large typeface may be advisable considering her age.

Or why not post on the Christianity forum and ask one of those chaps for a useful Christian commentary on evolution? Most Christians are on board.

Does it really matter? If I'm honest I vaguely understand the faintest brushstrokes of the big bang theory, I'd hope this won't prompt you to come to my house with a bag of books and a blunderbuss!

Beruthiel

redfacedbear wrote: »

If Attenborough is her cup of tea then the short series 'Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life' would probably be ideal.

I watched some of this last night on youtube and it's a nice, gentle introduction on Darwins theory. I think I may get the dvd for her.
She's an avid gardener, she must have noticed the changes and variants in plant life and just hasn't put two and two together.

5cutch wrote:

I'd hope this won't prompt you to come to my house with a bag of books

PM me your address, I'll be round directly!

Beruthiel

Beruthiel wrote: »

... and moved swiftly on to asking her if she believed in Evolution and Darwinism.

Maybe this is the problem, it just struck me.
Usually we start off with "do you believe in evolution". But it's not something "to believe in", it's a fact and saying belief is maybe equating it with beliefs, to the non-evolution listener.

magicbastarder

attenborough's new 'life' series is starting on friday, i think, and handily, it's about evolution.

Tim Robbins

Beruthiel wrote: »

Are you sure you can stretch to a whole 50p robin?



You know, you're dead right. It would be preachy. And yes, she does know where the library is if she's interested.
.

If she likes reading / learning I'd get her the book: Finding Darwin's God, or 'It's only a theory' which is a book written on evolution by a devout Catholic Ken Milller.

Apparently they are both quite good. Both available from amazon.

If she doesn't like reading / learning I'd drop it.

Splendour

Beruthiel wrote: »

So here's my dilemma, do I give her some books on evolution? Is it even my place to do so?

Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

rational

Splendour wrote: »

Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

He hopes (I assume) at 72 she is going to sit down with a cup of cocoa and a bit of light reading on evolution and have an Angulus moment. (looking into the distance and pondering "ah yea now it all makes sense")

Galvasean

Attenborough FTW. If she doesn't like Attenborough's nature shows then you know you never stood a chance anyhow.
Since she's a Catholic you should inform her that the Catholic Church accepts evolution, so it's not like she's commiting sin by accepting it. I would really hammer home the fact that most Christians believe in evoluion and it doesn't stop them being good Christians.

But hey, if she's still not happy to accept evolution that's her beef. As said before on this thread it's not like she's trying to convert your kids or hassel the school science cirriculum.

iguana

Splendour wrote: »

Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

The same thing anyone might achieve by trying to educate anyone. Or of anyone wanting to learn anything at all? Why does someone being 72 mean they can't/shouldn't ever have their mind changed?

I don't know why but this discussion reminds me of when my grandmother broke her ankle, aged 76. She was really upset and when I tried to cheer her up she told me I couldn't possibly understand what she was going through. I told her I'd broken plenty of bones over the years to which she said "exactly, you have no idea what it's like to get to my age without breaking a bone and then break one."

We all still laugh at her for that. It's not like life has an embargo on new experiences once you hit a certain age. Just because you've gone through all of life one way, doesn't mean it has to stay like that until you die. If it did what's the point in still being alive.

Dades

rational wrote: »

SHE hopes (I assume) at 72 she is going to sit down with a cup of cocoa and a bit of light reading on evolution and have an Angulus moment. (looking into the distance and pondering "ah yea now it all makes sense")

You'd swear at 72 people should sit about talking about how great things were in the old days and taking their medication.

Beruthiel

Splendour wrote: »

Am curious-what would you hope to achieve in doing so?

Knowledge.
My mother maybe 72, but she's the sharpest, fittest, busiest 72 year old you're lightly to meet.
She reads a lot. Just not the type of stuff I would.
She loves to talk and discuss. If there is something new to learn, she's happy to do so.
Up until a few weeks ago, I didn't realise that she didn't understand evolution.
I have ordered David Attenborough for her and I believe/hope she will enjoy it.

Dades wrote:

You'd swear at 72 people should sit about talking about how great things were in the old days and taking their medication

Someone better inform my father. He togs out in his tour de france gear daily and does anywhere from 40k to 70k on his bike. Scarily fit.

Galvasean

iguana wrote: »

Why does someone being 72 mean they can't/shouldn't ever have their mind changed?

Or house for that matter. I remember my grandmother had a really old and crap bathroom. We were forever telling her that she should get it done up, but she was always saying things like, "What's the point? I'm old now. It's not like I'll get much use out of it." Eventually she relented and had a very nice bathroom for a good 8 years.

ISAW

Beruthiel wrote: »

Yup. She said the exact same thing to me.

The thing is that Evolution does NOT say we came from monkeys!
Two of you have stated ths twice now!

Get the theory right before you attempt to talk down to others about it!

ISAW

Wicknight wrote: »

I would leave your mum as she is to be honest. I think if she wanted to know about this stuff she would have already looked into it. She sounds a little in denial, I think people choose to reject evolution out of comfort of religion rather than genuine ignorance, i doubt she doesn't believe in electricity even though she probably can explain how that works.

But she is getting on a bit and perhaps she is happier. She isn't filling your daughters head with Creationist nonsense, she isn't trying to get school boards closed down etc.

But if the woman is a Catholic thay type of blind faith is not what Catholicism encourages and she should be told that and told what the catholic position on evolution is.

ISAW

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I've had that question from my parents, I found it easier to just say that Monkeys are our cousins, not our parents.

Exactly! Common ansestor!
And this sharing "90 something per cent" stuff is misleading to. We might "share fifty something percent" with a tree!

The primates that where our parents are long extinct.

But evidence for them exists! Similar primats existed.

OP, I'm in the same boat. Both of my parents don't accept evolution.
What I've found though is that it goes beyond Religious belief, but a mild disgust at the notion that humans aren't special.

But they are special. They are thinking about it. Even thinking you are not special makes you special.

I view people that don't accept Evolution like Jingoists. Trying to tell a Jingoist that their country isn't amazing just because they where born there is no different than trying to tell a human that doesn't accept evolution that their species isn't special.

So what? Whether they accept evolution or not their species is special.

For example, I was at the Dublin Zoo recently with my parents and we passed by the Chimpanzee enclosure. My mother, thinking she was making a joke, said: "Oh there's your cousin, you can see the similarities"

So much so early heart transplants used their hearts? Did you ask then if white people are similar to black people and if not why not? how do they judge similar?

Nicely also, was the fact that the information plaque at the Chimpanzee enclosure also referred to them as our cousins. I think the fact that my mother realized this Zoo that she had been visiting since she was a child was now putting up plaques supporting evolution hit home to her a lot more than any evidence I was giving her.

I suggest you read about authoritarianism.
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/

Probably better than blaiming it on religion, although religion has it too.

Goduznt Xzst

ISAW wrote: »

....

You remind me of those drunk fellows you see stumbling around, putting their fists up in nice Pubs, slurring "yousss lookin' for a fight... you lookin' at me, I'll bate you..." when everybody else is having a quiet pint and wondering what the hell you're on about.

Splendour

Beruthiel wrote: »

Knowledge.
My mother maybe 72, but she's the sharpest, fittest, busiest 72 year old you're lightly to meet.
She reads a lot. Just not the type of stuff I would.
She loves to talk and discuss. If there is something new to learn, she's happy to do so.
Up until a few weeks ago, I didn't realise that she didn't understand evolution.
I have ordered David Attenborough for her and I believe/hope she will enjoy it.

If she doesn't read the type of stuff you read she may feel you're imposing this on her. However, should she read it, sounds like you could be on for a decent discussion!
Though how would you feel if she bought a bible or a Christian book? Would you be open to reading it?

stevoslice

Splendour wrote: »

Though how would you feel if she bought a bible or a Christian book? Would you be open to reading it?

Its a DVD. and i'm sure i'm speaking for most here when i say that if a christian/catholic book was released with a reasonable, logical and non-dogmatic approach to proving the existence of god, then i would give it a shot.

But that's about as likely to happen as intelligent life evolving on a remote hunk of rock. ;-)

rational

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You remind me of those drunk fellows you see stumbling around, putting their fists up in nice Pubs, slurring "yousss lookin' for a fight... you lookin' at me, I'll bate you..." when everybody else is having a quiet pint and wondering what the hell you're on about.

So when a poster writes clear evidence based post which systamatically distructs other posters arguments, you call him drunk? D'ont bother dealing with the evidence. Dont deal with the substantive points he is making. No, seek to Ridicule. However ridicule is no substitute for clear logical distruction of a point of view which ISAW frequently gives. Having said that from reading your previous posts you are not the best at offering evidence for your arguments. I thought atheists would appreciate an evidence based approach to argument and discussion. Keep up the ridicule, its easy for people to support, but it actually contributes very little.:rolleyes: