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Stealing from work. Is it ever justified?

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,672 ✭✭✭Oblomov


    Irish shop workers are the worst shoplifters. Light-fingered retail staff are helping themselves to €167m in goods and cash a year, the worst rate in Europe, a global survey has found.

    While Ireland ranked 11th out of 22 countries in Europe for shoplifting, it was worst for employee theft, according to the research by the UK’s Centre for Retail Research.

    Its report surveyed 21 retailers in Ireland with a total of 358 stores, and estimates that all Irish shops lost €453m, or 1.38% of annual sales, from what the industry describes as “shrinkage” — stock losses from crime or waste expressed as a percentage of retail sales.

    Employee theft accounted for 36.8% of shrinkage in Ireland, the highest rate in Europe. While retailers estimated that shoplifters were responsible for 40.6% of their losses and stole €183.9m worth of items, thefts by shop workers cost €166.7m. Across Europe, the average amount stolen by dishonest employees was 19.8 times higher than that snatched by shoplifters.

    “It’s a sector where people can be unhappy because it’s hard and thankless work with low pay,” said Rowan Manahan, managing director of Fortify Services, a human-resources consultancy. “People in Ireland are not always particularly pleasant to shop assistants.

    “But it’s also been said that the Irish have a delinquent gene and there could be the feeling that if solicitors and politicians are on the make, then why not.”

    The proportion of Irish retailers experiencing shoplifting over the 12-month period increased by 39%. The recession is causing more crime in a sector already suffering from a slump in consumer demand, with Central Statistics Office (CSO) figures indicating that retailers experienced a 10% slump in sales in September from a year earlier.

    Joshua Bamfield, director of the Centre for Retail Research and author of the study, said: “People are stealing more household items, such as bread and cheese, and retailers caught all sorts of people who’d never shoplifted before and were older and better dressed. Shoplifters looking to sell on goods take what’s in demand, of high value and easily sold on, such as razor blades, electronic books, perfume, cosmetics and Satnavs.

    “Because music is relatively cheap now, they are concentrating on Blu-ray DVDs and DVD box sets of television series. This is even truer in the run-up to Christmas.”

    Torlach Denihan, director of Retail Ireland, believes the increase in shoplifting is part of a wider trend of petty crime spurred by the recession. The gardai recorded 5,083 incidents of theft from shops during the third quarter of this year, up 13% from the first quarter of 2006, the peak of the boom.

    The losses incurred by shops as a result of theft is equivalent to a tax on every Irish household of €348.91 a year, Bamfield said. “I don’t think our moral compass is any weaker than anyone else’s and the vast majority of employees are as honest as the day is long,” Denihan said. “Offences involving dishonesty are up and that’s a response to the recession. There are organised shoplifting gangs. But because of cumbersome rules of evidence, it’s challenging for the gardai to secure convictions. If there was greater willingness to convict, we could start to tackle it.”

    Tesco Ireland is protecting foodstuffs such as packaged meat and cheese by attaching anti-theft security tags similar to those used for clothing and alcohol on a trial basis in its express outlets in Dolphin’s Barn, Talbot Street and Parnell Street in Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    People steal music and tv from the internet all the time. Everytime they do that someone loses money.

    So, apparently, for your common man, The justification for stealing something is "I can get away with it". So, those people who steal from the internet, and then go into work and everyday and do not steal, are none but the most base of cowards.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,007 ✭✭✭knird evol


    There's some nice curtains in the offices here, and the poles and fittings are of reasonable quality.
    Things to do list.........bring drill/screwdriver to work tommorow


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,155 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    raah! wrote: »
    People steal music and tv from the internet all the time. Everytime they do that someone loses money.
    Except that's not true at all. It's only true if they were going to buy it instead of downloading it, and that they didn't buy after listening to it

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    I used to work in a supermarket when I was a teenager and "borrowed" the odd ice cream. Looking back at it now, it was a scumbag thing to do. However, I was a scumbag and ice cream is tasty.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Aswerty


    I used to work in a supermarket when I was a teenager and "borrowed" the odd ice cream. Looking back at it now, it was a scumbag thing to do. However, I was a scumbag and ice cream is tasty.
    Worked a bit in a shop when I was in my teens as well, ate and drank the odd item but to my shame pocketed small amounts of money every now and then too. So I trump you on the teenage scumbag scale. I've grown up a fair bit since though and realised the error of my ways. Sometimes mistakes are worth while when we learn from them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982


    Aswerty wrote: »
    Worked a bit in a shop when I was in my teens as well, ate and drank the odd item but to my shame pocketed small amounts of money every now and then too. So I trump you on the teenage scumbag scale. I've grown up a fair bit since though and realised the error of my ways. Sometimes mistakes are worth while when we learn from them.
    Scumbag.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    I used to work in a hotel in Dublin, I'll leave it unnamed.

    Everyone stole, in one way or another. One of the really comfy leather business man chairs from the meeting rooms made its way into one of the guys car.

    Bottles of wine, champagne, spirits all walked from the bars.

    TV's, lamps, vacuums and beds walked out of the housekeeping stores.

    Management were as bad as the staff. Noone said anything, as long as head office didn't know, everything was grand. And the union was strong with this one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    Oblomov wrote: »
    Employee theft accounted for 36.8% of shrinkage in Ireland, the highest rate in Europe. While retailers estimated that shoplifters were responsible for 40.6% of their losses and stole €183.9m worth of items, thefts by shop workers cost €166.7m. Across Europe, the average amount stolen by dishonest employees was 19.8 times higher than that snatched by shoplifters.

    How do shops decide how much of their missing stock was taken by staff or shoplifters?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,540 ✭✭✭✭Blazer


    How do shops decide how much of their missing stock was taken by staff or shoplifters?

    toss a coin or make it up..


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Normally I wouldn't steal from my employers but in one instance I did. :p

    I worked in an engineering shop in Boston during the early 90's, After two months I had a row with the boss and I decided to hand in my notice.

    Coming towards the end of the week the Boss refused to hand me my back week. When leaving I deciided to fill my lunchbox with micrometers and other measuring equipment to the value of the discrepancy in my wages. :)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Rebelheart


    phill106 wrote: »
    Does stealing time, posting on boards.ie count?

    How very true. It's the same as stealing money if you're being paid for that time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 50 ✭✭ruffles91


    Normally I wouldn't steal from my employers but in one instance I did. :p

    I worked in an engineering shop in Boston during the early 90's, After two months I had a row with the boss and I decided to hand in my notice.

    Coming towards the end of the week the Boss refused to hand me my back week. When leaving I deciided to fill my lunchbox with micrometers and other measuring equipment to the value of the discrepancy in my wages. :)

    lol.. fair play!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Aswerty


    Scumbag.
    You're so friendly. :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,599 ✭✭✭sashafierce


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    28064212 wrote: »
    Except that's not true at all. It's only true if they were going to buy it instead of downloading it, and that they didn't buy after listening to it

    So, say for example, I thought spending 2000 euros on some gold is a complete waste of money. But if I were to surreptitiously snatch said gold, reasoning that they would not have made any money from me anyway, then it's not stealing? Or not bad, or not whatever it needs to not be to make my statement untrue?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 310 ✭✭csm


    No because they would then have lost the gold and couldn't sell it to someone else. For an mp3 file, it can just be copied at no extra cost to the producer, so if someone takes a copy without paying the producer is only losing profit if that person would have bought the item before stealing it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Ok well, you are depriving the person of their profit. You're stealing the money from them. Regardless of whether or not they would be able to keep selling the thing, you are causing them to make less money.

    If it's ok to just deprive fat cats of profit, then it's ok to deprive those fat cat's running one's place of work of profit.

    Another example could be if someone made loads of copies of their book, and had them copied where the price was infinitesimally small. Does that mean it's ok to steal the book because it cost them nothing to copy it, and they will not lose any money when you steal it? Again doesn't this mean it's ok to steal things if the people who own them don't need them, and the losses they suffer from those things being stolen are negligible with respect to their profits.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    raah! wrote: »
    People steal music and tv from the internet all the time. Everytime they do that someone loses money.

    So, apparently, for your common man. The justification for stealing something is "I can get away with it". So, those people who steal from the internet, and then go into work and everyday and do not steal, are none but the most base of cowards.
    raah! wrote: »
    So, say for example, I thought spending 2000 euros on some gold is a complete waste of money. But if I were to surreptitiously snatch said gold, reasoning that they would not have made any money from me anyway, then it's not stealing? Or not bad, or not whatever it needs to not be to make my statement untrue?

    I don't think you understand the basics of economics here. Can I suggest you study concepts such as fixed, step, variable * marginal costs as well as "cost of opportunity" etc before repeating what some muppet forces you to watch at the start of every dvd?

    Downloading copyright material for personal consumption is not stealing.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,880 ✭✭✭TimeToShine


    dotsman wrote: »
    Downloading copyright material for personal consumption is not stealing.

    Well then it's off to Limewire/PirateBay/Isohunt for the night...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,629 ✭✭✭raah!


    Well, riddle me this, and don't be upset;

    What do you call getting for free something which you are supposed to, by law, pay for? You are breaking the law by getting those things for free, the person is supposed to profit from your downloading of their things.

    If it's not stealing then that's only a pedantic matter, we can call it anything and the argument still stands.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,494 ✭✭✭citizen_p


    not work, but i have stole from school, mainly just pens etc...
    im delighted that i havnt bought a pen/pencil since second year, and i also got a stapler when mine at home broke etc... nothing major though.


    never stole from work though.

    had a mate who i think was a cleptomaniac(?) and stole stuff he never used, chairs (yes he managedto take a swivel chair by just bringing it out at the end of school in front of everyone), selotape (like 2 or 3 roles a day), paint, books, even Ram from a pc in the school. weird thing was he didnt even have a pc at home so he just chucked it.
    he was also the person who used to destroy tools etc... in the woodwork room, and complain a month later about so and so not working


    i dont view piracy as a crime, hence i will never work in the music or film industry....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭foxinsox


    How do shops decide how much of their missing stock was taken by staff or shoplifters?

    By doing audits...

    If stock has arrived in a delivery..has been signed for as received.
    If stock goes "missing" from an area not accessible to the public...
    It is usually safe to assume it "walked out the door all by itself" = staff

    If money is missing from the safe - staff
    If money is missing from the till - paper trail can show usually where it went.

    Fraudulent refunds/exchanges can be where a lot of money/stock goes missing = staff

    CCTV can also see who takes what....

    etc etc..

    :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,103 ✭✭✭Tiddlypeeps


    raah! wrote: »
    Well, riddle me this, and don't be upset;

    What do you call getting for free something which you are supposed to, by law, pay for? You are breaking the law by getting those things for free, the person is supposed to profit from your downloading of their things.

    If it's not stealing then that's only a pedantic matter, we can call it anything and the argument still stands.

    You call it piracy.

    It's only theft if the person would have paid for it had they not illegally downloaded it. If somebody who can not afford the latest album from whoever then that person is not going to buy it. If that person illegally downloads it the record companies don't loose anything as the person was never going to purchase it. Therefore not theft. Not saying its right, and yes it is only a pedantic matter, but one worth clarifying I would think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    raah! wrote: »
    Well, riddle me this, and don't be upset;
    Take a lot more than this to upset me:D
    raah! wrote: »
    What do you call getting for free something which you are supposed to, by law, pay for? You are breaking the law by getting those things for free,
    I call it a law that needs changing (and an entire sector that needs to re-adjust to modern life). For the vast majority of human existence, the human race managed just fine without record companies and their cartels.
    raah! wrote: »
    the person is supposed to profit from your downloading of their things.
    What person? What exactly is their thing?
    raah! wrote: »
    If it's not stealing then that's only a pedantic matter, we can call it anything and the argument still stands.
    It's not just pedantic. Stealing insinuates that you are taking something away from somebody and they no longer have it. Copying it doesn't impact what that person still has.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭Ronin247


    dotsman wrote: »

    Downloading copyright material for personal consumption is not stealing.

    I think it is stealing and requires a large leap of logic to say it isnt.It belongs to someone else and you didnt pay for it and have no permission to copy it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    phasers wrote: »
    Does shaking the vending machines count as stealing from work?

    The other week I put 2 EURO in the vending machine. However it took my money and gave me nothing so I shook it until something fell out - a yorkie - which I didn't want. Net result I put in two euro and got out a yorkie.
    Damn thieving machine!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Ronin247 wrote: »
    I think it is stealing and requires a large leap of logic to say it isnt.It belongs to someone else and you didnt pay for it and have no permission to copy it.

    There are so many examples, I'm at a loss to pick just one.

    OK, so here goes - if I make up some phrase, and people start using it, do I have the right to expect them to pay me for using it? Do I have the right to call them a criminal? Threaten them with fines/prison etc?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭trish23


    Oblomov wrote: »

    While Ireland ranked 11th out of 22 countries in Europe for shoplifting, it was worst for employee theft, according to the research by the UK’s Centre for Retail Research.Its report surveyed 21 retailers in Ireland with a total of 358 stores, and estimates that all Irish shops lost €453m, or 1.38% of annual sales, from what the industry describes as “shrinkage” — stock losses from crime or waste expressed as a percentage of retail sales.

    Employee theft accounted for 36.8% of shrinkage in Ireland, the highest rate in Europe. While retailers estimated that shoplifters were responsible for 40.6% of their losses and stole €183.9m worth of items, thefts by shop workers cost €166.7m. Across Europe, the average amount stolen by dishonest employees was 19.8 times higher than that snatched by shoplifters.

    “It’s a sector where people can be unhappy because it’s hard and thankless work with low pay,” said Rowan Manahan, managing director of Fortify Services, a human-resources consultancy. “People in Ireland are not always particularly pleasant to shop assistants.

    “But it’s also been said that the Irish have a delinquent gene and there could be the feeling that if solicitors and politicians are on the make, then why not.”

    The Irish have a 'delinquent gene'? This is a survey carried out by the UK Centre for Retail Research? Now who'd have thought....


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,000 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    trish23 wrote: »
    The Irish have a 'delinquent gene'? This is a survey carried out by the UK Centre for Retail Research? Now who'd have thought....

    Thats outrageously racist


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