Gaeltacht Quarter in Belfast now- next Derry!!!

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 08:15PM

dlofnep wrote: »

So what? You made the claim that it was a dead language. It's quite clear that it isn't.

Then majority of the public have a positive view of the language. Not everyone subscribes to your linguistic views.

If the majority of the public have a positive view of the irish language, why do only 3% of them speak it (best case scenario on the basis of the figures provided in this thread)

Secondly, if this thread was in irish how many people would be able to understand it?

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 08:21PM

Predator_ wrote: »

Im aware that some people hate the language because of the way it was taught to them in school, these people lack the intelligence to seperate a language from the education system. They should direct their hate towards the Government who continue to teach it in such a way that results in such poor levels of fluency. I presonally think our Goverment hates the langauge, along with everything else Irish, therefor do not change the way it is taught.

Blaming the government for the lack of command and knowledge of the irish language is patently absurd.

If this is the case how come everyone in Ireland speaks English with no difficulty?

The simple fact of the matter is that Irish is not used by the vast majority of the irish population and English. Irish will never be spoken on a widespread basis because it has grown completely irrelevant to the irish people.

AlexderFranke · 10-10-2010 08:37PM

Well, the figures of around 100.000 native speakers and 400.000 -
500.000 all over the island is absolutely realistic. One survey contains different levels of ability. 2% stated native speaker ability and 9% to be able to follow most conversations. And this only includes the Republic. You have to add the figures of Northern Ireland. The
20.000 - 30.000 are Gaeltacht native speakers whose everyday language is still Irish. There is no doubt that there are more native speakers around on the island, either people with Gaeltacht origin or others whose parents spoke Irish to them.

Freastalaíonn na figiúrí mar atá
100.000 cainteoir dúchais agus
400.000 - 500.000 cainteoir líofa go maith leis an bhfírinne. Deineadh suirbhé le cumais éagsúla ar an nGaeilge san áireamh. Dúirt 2% go bhfuil cumas ar nós caineoirí dúchais acu agus 9% eile go bhfuil siad in ann an chuid is mó na gcomhráite a leanúint. Agus caitear figiúrí an Tuiscirt a chur san áireamh.
Is í uimhir an 20.000 - 30.000 na cainteoirí dúchais leis an nGaeilge mar phríomhtheanga an tsaoil latthúil sa Ghaeltacht amháin. Is cinnte go bhfuil níos mó cainteoirí dúchais ar fud an oileáin timpeall, daoine le fréamh sa Ghaeltacht nó daoine eile ar labhair a dtuismitheoirí Gaeilge leo.

An Ghaeilge go brách!

Alex

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 09:03PM

AlexderFranke wrote: »

Well, the figures of around 100.000 native speakers and 400.000 -
500.000 all over the island is absolutely realistic. One survey contains different levels of ability. 2% stated native speaker ability and 9% to be able to follow most conversations. And this only includes the Republic. You have to add the figures of Northern Ireland. The
20.000 - 30.000 are Gaeltacht native speakers whose everyday language is still Irish. There is no doubt that there are more native speakers around on the island, either people with Gaeltacht origin or others whose parents spoke Irish to them.

Freastalaíonn na figiúrí mar atá
100.000 cainteoir dúchais agus
400.000 - 500.000 cainteoir líofa go maith leis an bhfírinne. Deineadh suirbhé le cumais éagsúla ar an nGaeilge san áireamh. Dúirt 2% go bhfuil cumas ar nós caineoirí dúchais acu agus 9% eile go bhfuil siad in ann an chuid is mó na gcomhráite a leanúint. Agus caitear figiúrí an Tuiscirt a chur san áireamh.
Is í uimhir an 20.000 - 30.000 na cainteoirí dúchais leis an nGaeilge mar phríomhtheanga an tsaoil latthúil sa Ghaeltacht amháin. Is cinnte go bhfuil níos mó cainteoirí dúchais ar fud an oileáin timpeall, daoine le fréamh sa Ghaeltacht nó daoine eile ar labhair a dtuismitheoirí Gaeilge leo.

An Ghaeilge go brách!

Alex

Where are you getting your figures as a matter of interest.

I simply refuse to believe that there are as many as 20% of irish people (give or take) that are competent in irish.

At the risk if seeming cynical, I would take government figures with a grain of salt due to the possibility of them having to justify their position of having to maintain irish as an official language. I'm open to correction here.

stovelid · 10-10-2010 09:20PM

Confab wrote: »

Isn't it unbelievably arrogant to claim a foreign language quarter in a country that has had massive conflicts over the country that produced that language? Jesus H, I can hardlybelieve anyone would be insane enough to deliberately provoke the people of NI UK by doing this. It's the equivalent of claiming a Yiddish Quarter in Gaza City or a German Quarter in Auschwitz.

I don't believe this but what I do think is that is sad and inevitable that something as undeniably worthwhile as this is largely motivated by an entrenching of positions and will copper-fasten division. Just like an equivalent quarter would on the "other side".

Not that I oppose either - just that it's a sad fact of NI that the locus of cultural expression will continue to be defined as that which most pisses off (both) themuns.

Krusader · 10-10-2010 09:31PM

Not necessarily, anyway has a vast majority of Nationalist than loyalist in the city.
Why are people so negative when other people want to express themselves in the Irish language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QeR1yrX3u0

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 11:33PM

Crosáidí wrote: »

Not necessarily, anyway has a vast majority of Nationalist than loyalist in the city.
Why are people so negative when other people want to express themselves in the Irish language

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QeR1yrX3u0

This isnt about negativity. It's about practicality.

DJP · 10-10-2010 11:50PM

orourkeda wrote: »

This isnt about negativity. It's about practicality.

Really??? What age are you? 16, or are do you still have some growing up to do before you reach that great age?

orourkeda wrote: »

We even have TV stations that nobody watches and radio station that nobody listens to in order to promote our dead national language.

orourkeda wrote: »

Irish is dead. Trust me. It's dead.

orourkeda wrote: »

If irish wasnt rammed up our arses in school we could finally bury it and have its funeral

DJP · 10-10-2010 11:52PM

I am going to get onto some people about having a coordinated campaign in three or four years time for all Irish cities and perhaps some major towns to have Gaeltacht Quarters. When councillors are making their next five year Development Plans will be the time to do it.

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 11:53PM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Really??? What age are you? 16, or are do you still have some growing up to do before you reach that great age?

Is this the level you need to stoop to?

Come on I was expecting something better than that as a retort.

orourkeda · 10-10-2010 11:57PM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I am going to get onto some people about having a coordinated campaign in three or four years time for all Irish cities and perhaps some major towns to have Gaeltacht Quarters. When councillors are making their next five year Development Plans will be the time to do it.

Do we face more pressing issues as a nation than gaeltacht quarters in our towns and cities?

dlofnep · 10-10-2010 11:57PM

orourkeda wrote: »

If the majority of the public have a positive view of the irish language, why do only 3% of them speak it (best case scenario on the basis of the figures provided in this thread)

Because only a small portion of the population have the ability to converse freely, without problems. That is a direct result of a poor curriculum, where absolutely no focus or time is spent on "spoken Irish". Your point is a complete red herring, and doesn't address what I actually said - which was the attitudes of the people towards the language. It's evident that the people as a whole support the language, and wouldn't like to see it go.

orourkeda wrote: »

Secondly, if this thread was in irish how many people would be able to understand it?

Once again, a red herring and has nothing to do with the statement I made.

dlofnep · 10-10-2010 11:58PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Do we face more pressing issues as a nation than gaeltacht quarters in our towns and cities?

Logic fail.

There will always be a more pressing issue than something. It doesn't mean that it doesn't warrant attention. One might say that providing funds to hospitals is a much more pressing issue than saving the environment, but both warrant attention. Your logic is abysmal.

DJP · 11-10-2010 12:03AM

orourkeda wrote: »

Is this the level you need to stoop to?

Come on I was expecting something better than that as a retort.

You should not comment on the level other people allegedly "stoop to" given your immaturity demonstrated on this thread. Your posts have given me no belief that you are anything than a disgruntled teenager or a psychologically under developed and immature adult.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:12AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Logic fail.

There will always be a more pressing issue than something. It doesn't mean that it doesn't warrant attention. One might say that providing funds to hospitals is a much more pressing issue than saving the environment, but both warrant attention. Your logic is abysmal.

In the grand scheme of things the irish language is way down the pecking order of priorities. To mention healthcare and the irish language in the same thread is a patent absurdity. If healthcare isnt a pressing matter then I dont know what is. I just hope that you dont think the irish language is as important an issue as this. This is my logic. If you think thats a "logic fail" as you call it, what can I say.

Choosing to match up healthcare v environmental issues as a means to demonstrate the irish languages place doesnt really stand up. It's place in the pecking order will vary from person to person but as I see it the irish language isnt a pressing issue at this current time.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:17AM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

You should not comment on the level other people allegedly "stoop to" given your immaturity demonstrated on this thread. Your posts have given me no belief that you are anything than a disgruntled teenager or a psychologically under developed and immature adult.

Do explain. Does the fact that I believe the irish language is useless render me a "disgruntled teenager" or intellectually challenged in some way. I didnt resort to commenting on your mental wellbeing in making any post so I'd ask that you stick to the issue.

gurramok · 11-10-2010 12:19AM

orourkeda wrote: »

The simple fact of the matter is that Irish is not used by the vast majority of the irish population and English. Irish will never be spoken on a widespread basis because it has grown completely irrelevant to the irish people.

Its relevant to me even though I can hardly speak it. Wish it was taught properly to my class and look how we ended up without knowing how to converse in it.

A plus is my nephews, they go to an Irish school and know the language quite well. Wish i had that opportunity when I was their age.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:22AM

gurramok wrote: »

Its relevant to me even though I can hardly speak it. Wish it was taught properly to my class and look how we ended up without knowing how to converse in it.

A plus is my nephews, they go to an Irish school and know the language quite well. Wish i had that opportunity when I was their age.

How can a language be relevant to you if you can barely speak it. That makes little or no sense to me.

DJP · 11-10-2010 12:26AM

orourkeda wrote: »

Do explain. Does the fact that I believe the irish language is useless render me a "disgruntled teenager"

No.

orourkeda wrote: »

or intellectually challenged in some way.

No, but these posts do.

orourkeda wrote: »

We even have TV stations that nobody watches and radio station that nobody listens to in order to promote our dead national language.

orourkeda wrote: »

Irish is dead. Trust me. It's dead.

orourkeda wrote: »

If irish wasnt rammed up our arses in school we could finally bury it and have its funeral

Wibbs · 11-10-2010 12:28AM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

You should not comment on the level other people allegedly "stoop to" given your immaturity demonstrated on this thread. Your posts have given me no belief that you are anything than a disgruntled teenager or a psychologically under developed and immature adult.

Lets face facts, neither of you are exactly covering yourself in glory, mature or otherwise. Though I have to say orourkeda is well ahead on objective observation of the reality on the ground.

dlofnep wrote:

Because only a small portion of the population have the ability to converse freely, without problems. That is a direct result of a poor curriculum, where absolutely no focus or time is spent on "spoken Irish". Your point is a complete red herring, and doesn't address what I actually said - which was the attitudes of the people towards the language. It's evident that the people as a whole support the language, and wouldn't like to see it go.

Yet the same people have made such an impression on the language that it needs almost constant support outside a very narrow group? That says a lot. I simply don't buy it. It's lip service and that same lip service will kill the impact of the Irish schools of this generation, just like it killed it previously. If the great mass of Irish people who when polled said "Yay go(amach

) Gaelige!" actually meant it, then we wouldnt be having this convo. I know a few parents who sent their kids to Irish schools. For all sorts of reasons. some well dubious. The "less darkies" option was such. Mostly it was because of better teacher to student ratios and a little bit of south dublin cache at polite dinner parties. A laudable few were for the language. Even so, while the kids spke Irish in school, by the time they got home, Bearla was the lingua franca de jour.

This goes for those who do claim to speak it. Just watched some programme in TG4 and the Irish speakers were dropping in english words all over the place. One struck me as ironic. The word "guilt". I'm sure that word exists and is well described in the language as it is a common word, yet it seems such a common word that it escapes some of the so called "fluent"?

TG4 is a good example of the health of the language. You often see the same faces trotted out for various shows. Why, because they have some level of fluency. I recall waaaaay back in the day, being part of the school kid audience for SBB in a hi(sp) with Sean Ban breathnach(SP!). Bugger all of us had a clue what was going on and we were in dire fear of being singled out on camera. We shouldnt have been. 5 kids had been imported who could would pass muster on camera and give the impression that we all were clued in. Chatting to oen of them and he told me he was wheeled out a lot. A 10 year old on retainer for a living language? Smoke and mirrors folks. The prompt cards as Bearla held up by the production assistants at the right moments sealed the surreal atmosphere for me. Fast forward 20 years? It may have improved, it may not. I suspect the latter. Other highlights of TG4 are one to one interviews with some superannuated person or other describing how they raised sheep in 50's Ireland. Riveting stuff I think you'll agree.

Look at the TG4 programme where the committed Irish speaker roamed the land only speaking Irish. He was boned. Almost nobody understood him. Where were the 500,000 "Irish speakers"? He himself saw the issue.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:34AM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

No.

No, but these posts do.

As a matter of interest what are the listenership numbers for Radio Na Gaeltacht and the viewership numbers for TG4. These are the broadcasters that I was speaking of.

To me, spending twelve to thirteen years being taught a language and being unable to speak it fluently at the end of it is off the wall. Absolutely off the wall. Now if you believe that this makes me a "disgruntled teenager" fair enough. If that's what you believe fine.

To illustrate just how ineffective the teacking of irish is, My future brother in law lived in Italy for a time and went there with barely a word of Italian. Within a year he was fluent.

The fault may lie with the education system for this. If it is why do we persist in throwing money at the problem and not correcting it. Then again, it's not entirely the fault of the education system alone that irish isnt the most widely spoken language in this country.

DJP · 11-10-2010 12:35AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Lets face facts, neither of you are exactly covering yourself in glory, mature or otherwise. Though I have to say orourkeda is well ahead on objective observation of the reality on the ground.

Given the three posts I quoted then you are delusional in thinking that he is objective. I wouldn't like to see you give out advice to patients if you were a doctor.

gurramok · 11-10-2010 12:41AM

orourkeda wrote: »

How can a language be relevant to you if you can barely speak it. That makes little or no sense to me.

Its relevant as its part of our national identity. Generations of people have been screwed by the education system through bad teaching of the Irish language. Just because alot cannot speak it doesn't mean its not relevant, we want to keep it.

Cavehill Red · 11-10-2010 12:43AM

What are your psychiatric qualifications, Darren?

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:50AM

gurramok wrote: »

Its relevant as its part of our national identity. Generations of people have been screwed by the education system through bad teaching of the Irish language. Just because alot cannot speak it doesn't mean its not relevant, we want to keep it.

Irish isnt a true living breathing language. It's more of an academic chore. Consequently, I don't believe we can claim it as a true component of national identity. It's part of it, but it's not english to the english or french to the french. With the problems that have been identified with the curriculum, isn't it better that we rectify them and give students a chance of learning the language properly than persisting with a system that clearly isnt working.

DJP · 11-10-2010 12:53AM

orourkeda wrote: »

Irish isnt a true living breathing language. It's more of an academic chore.

What about the people who speak Irish as their first language and people who like me continue to speak Irish after they have left school? How can the languge not be a "ture breathing language" and how can it more "more of an academic chore" to us. I stand over what I said. You are immature. I am going to try not and debate with you anymore.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 12:55AM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Given the three posts I quoted then you are delusional in thinking that he is objective. I wouldn't like to see you give out advice to patients if you were a doctor.

Firstly, it was YOU that started passing remarks in this thread. Nobody else. Pontificating on my perceived lack of objectivity isn't what this thread is about.

Now I've outlined what I meant by those posts. If you'd care to answer what I've said rather than dispensing medical advise.

I have no problem if you disagree with every word I say. Thats not really the issue.

DJP · 11-10-2010 12:59AM

orourkeda wrote: »

If you'd care to answer what I've said rather than dispensing medical advise.

I have no problem if you disagree with every word I say. Thats not really the issue.

The issue in question if you can call it an issue is that you have been hoarding this thread with inaccurate posts that are lies at worst.

orourkeda · 11-10-2010 01:02AM

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

What about the people who speak Irish as their first language and people who like me continue to speak Irish after they have left school? How can the languge not be a "ture breathing language" and how can it more "more of an academic chore" to us. I stand over what I said. You are immature. I am going to try not and debate with you anymore.

If it wasnt for Irish in school I would never have been exposed to the irish language in any way. I have never met anyone who used irish as a first language. I'm not saying this to annoy you but simply articulating that fact that irish as a means of communicating with the people around me didnt exist for me as I grew up. I'm not suggesting it doesnt happen but I would suggest that people who do are very much in the minority.

When I say that the irish language is an academic chore what I meant was that my experience of the irish language was a series of tests, exams and classes rather than it being the living breathing language that I mentioned.

DJP · 11-10-2010 01:04AM

orourkeda wrote: »

If it wasnt for Irish in school I would never have been exposed to the irish language in any way. I have never met anyone who used irish as a first language. I'm not saying this to annoy but simply articulating that fact that irish as a means of communicating with the people around me didnt exist for me as I grew up. I'm not suggesting it doesnt happen but I would suggest that people who do are very much in the minority.

When I say that the irish language is an academic chore this is what I meant was that my experience of the irish language was a series of tests, exams and classes rather than it being the living breathing language that I mentioned.

This is why I called you immature or very young. You are unable to get past "your experience" and keep on thinking it is the experience of everyone.

Gaeltacht Quarter in Belfast now- next Derry!!!

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