Gaeltacht Quarter in Belfast now- next Derry!!!

Dick Turnip

Confab wrote: »

You can't teach Irish in a classroom setting, it must be spoken in reality everywhere, like Welsh. Since it's neither useful not practical to speak Irish because very few will understand the speaker, it's effectively dead as a language. Personally I will insist on my children being taught an additional globally useful language instead of Irish.

Just reading through this thread and thought i'd pick up on that for a start even though it's not really pertinent (a word I've probably picked up from a certain TG4's foreign import!) but what makes you think Welsh is spoken everywhere in Wales? As far as I'm aware it has the same status as Irish here and is probably only slightly more widely spoken by people everyday there.

Anyway after reading through this thread I'm quite confused as to what we're debating here?? It seems to have boiled down to viewer-ship figures for TG4 at this stage. And even if we can figure out what the figures are for TG4/RnaG what are we discussing then?

And since it was mentioned, that the quality of TG4 can be summed as reruns of Two and a half men with subtitles or programmes about sheep farmers in the 50s, I would like to say though that TG4 do some fantastic programmes and documentaries in fairness to them. I remember watching one about a famous story where apparently the devil appeared at a ballroom dance in Mayo in the 60s or so. It was an interesting story and well made too. Also Hector's original show Amú was an excellent travel series, along with Daithí O'Sé's recent one on Route 66, even if both of them can be irritating at best.

They're just some examples I can think of. Also I would watch it for sport coverage more than anything else I suppose. For example I would watch the GAA club games and the league games in Feb/March. Also now they have Magners League coverage. I think TG4 are an excellent station and piss all over the muck that TV3 and RTE to a large extent produce especially given their limited resources.

Again I'm a bit lost as to what exactly we're discussing so I apologise for the rambling post

Dick Turnip

LordSutch wrote: »

Silly question maybe? But why open Gaelteacht quarters in Northern Ireland Cities (Belfast & L/Derry) when there are no Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin or Cork? > that I am aware of.

Big apologies if there are already Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin & Cork.

Not really that silly but these I presume the centres in Belfast & Derry are being opened up the by NI Assembly or departments/boards under their control whilst our own govt. haven't had the foresight to do so.

DJP

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Anyway after reading through this thread I'm quite confused as to what we're debating here?? It seems to have boiled down to viewer-ship figures for TG4 at this stage.

This happens a lot with threads on the Irish language.

LordSutch

Dick Turnip wrote: »

Jbut what makes you think Welsh is spoken everywhere in Wales? As far as I'm aware it has the same status as Irish here and is probably only slightly more widely spoken by people everyday there.

Welsh is a resounding success as a spoken language, it very widely spoken in comparrisson to Irish > with the teaching & nurturing of Welsh being a resunding seccess (despite it not being an official EU language)! Irish was made an official language as recently as 2006, > not that its helped.

Also ironic that Wales (an integral part of the UK) with a flourishing local language, while Ireland 'indenpendent' & seriously struggling with its so- called indeginous language, since leaving the UK :cool:

biko

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

If I wanted to slag him I would have slagged him. I don't see your connection.

Too lazy or immature?

Bottle_of_Smoke

LordSutch wrote: »

Silly question maybe? But why open Gaelteacht quarters in Northern Ireland Cities (Belfast & L/Derry) when there are no Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin or Cork? > that I am aware of.

Big apologies if there are already Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin & Cork.

The organisers haven't been exposed to free state rule so their gombeenism and lip service solution logic tendencies have been supressed. Now they've actually gone and done something to benefit the language

DJP

biko wrote: »

Too lazy or immature?

I was responding to orourkeda who asked me for a link to any of these reports. I pointed out that he is buying lazy or immature, based on I believe his immaturity demonstrated on this thread in saying that Irish speakers don't exist, in I suspected being so cynical. He then deleted the post though. There are a lot of rough this said on this forum if I am not mistaken. Surely calling someone lazy or immature is not one of them.

KeithAFC

Do protestants have to learn it?

dlofnep

LordSutch wrote: »

Silly question maybe? But why open Gaelteacht quarters in Northern Ireland Cities (Belfast & L/Derry) when there are no Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin or Cork? > that I am aware of.

Big apologies if there are already Gaelteacht Quarters in Dublin & Cork.

It's a valid question.

Essentially, the Irish language isn't protected in the North - so by creating small gaeltacht areas, it allows people to come together and either learn or meet with other Irish language speakers.

I personally believe we should have a language centre in all Irish cities. It would be a much more productive use of funding than other areas of Irish.

dlofnep

KeithAFC wrote: »

Do protestants have to learn it?

What has religion got to do with anything?

orourkeda

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

I was responding to orourkeda who asked me for a link to any of these reports. I pointed out that he is buying lazy or immature, based on I believe his immaturity demonstrated on this thread in saying that Irish speakers don't exist, in I suspected being so cynical. He then deleted the post though. There are a lot of rough this said on this forum if I am not mistaken. Surely calling someone lazy or immature is not one of them.

Stop twisting my words to make yourself look good.

I haven't resorted to petty namecalling either so kindly stick to the issue in hand.

orourkeda

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

Why not? I agree though that we should have Gaeltacht Quarters in Dublin and Cork. It is something to look for when councillors in the cities are drafting their next five year City Development Plans. This year councillors in Dublin City Council and South Dublin County Council voted to name all new residential developments in Irish in the next plans. So the support for na teanga is clearly there amongst them. I would be hopeful that we could get them providing that some or most Irish language organisations were willing to relocate there.

Personally, I'd rather see them concentrating on the more pressing and important issues before they start to address the foundation of a language centre and what housing estates are named in irish. Once they've taken care of the likes of schools, hospitals and employment matters (among a raft of others) then perhaps we can concentrate on the likes of this.

As I see it what you suggest isn't an immediate priority.

As an example, I'm sure we've all heard the recent liveline programmes about the lack of facilities for CF sufferers. It's projects like this that the little money we have left should be spent putting right.

KeithAFC

dlofnep wrote: »

What has religion got to do with anything?

Just that some protestants in belfast might not want to learn it.

orourkeda

KeithAFC wrote: »

Just that some protestants in belfast might not want to learn it.

Whatever about protestants, I can't see there being a stampede of unionists if this is what you meant?

Dick Turnip

orourkeda wrote: »

Whatever about protestants, I can't see there being a stampede of unionists if this is what you meant?

I presume that's what he means alright but I don't think it's being pedantic and it should be pointed out that they are, or at least should be completely separate issues. Too often are politics and religion intertwined on this island on a multitude of issues to the detriment of many if not the majority. Anyway that's for another thread....;)

However, yeah I can't see too many unionists rushing to hang out in the centre. So as a cross community venture I can't see it being a huge success but then I presume that's not the thinking behind it.

Wibbs

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

This happens a lot with threads on the Irish language.

Yes I agree. For a few reasons. Singular among them a "you're with us or agin us/You're a west Brit/GAA bogger"

LordSutch wrote: »

Welsh is a resounding success as a spoken language, it very widely spoken in comparrisson to Irish > with the teaching & nurturing of Welsh being a resunding seccess (despite it not being an official EU language)! Irish was made an official language as recently as 2006, > not that its helped.

Also ironic that Wales (an integral part of the UK) with a flourishing local language, while Ireland 'indenpendent' & seriously struggling with its so- called indeginous language, since leaving the UK :cool:

I agree and again we have to ask why? The forcing of the language down our collective throats would be one big reason. Why just talk about incentives today, but look back to what was tried before. Gaelscoils are not a new phenomena. There were quite a few back in the day(40's/50's) including secondary. Up until the early 70's you could have an exemplary leaving cert, yet if you failed Irish you were deemed to have failed the whole thing. To this day you need it to get into the NUI universities. Up until the mid 70's(IIRC) it was an absolute requirement for the civil service. To this day to teach you have to have to pass an exam in it. If you want to be a Guard you have to have a pass in it in your LC. All Irish born kids have to go through the education experience with daily exposure to it. Public money funds many areas of promotion of the language, including the media outlets. The list is long.

So where are we now? Donncha Ó hÉallaithe's analysis reckoned that at the foundation of this state the country had up to quarter of a million fluent speakers and now it's closer to 20/30,000. Eh wut? So clearly successive gov policy ahs been as much use as a chocolate teapot.

I personally think another aspect and pressure on the language is the rural/urban divide. At the foundation of teh state, Ireland was significantly more rural a nation. More rural people spoke the language. Much more I'd warrant. Urban types spoke it far less, unless they went out of their way to do so.

With the migration away from the countryside in the 40's and 50's into the towns and cities the falloff in Irish might be traced to that. The urbanites considered it a "country thing" and many of those who moved left it behind with their old life. Not unlike accents. You see this in my own home town Dublin. You can meet people in their 30's or 40's say who have a D4 accent or approximation of one, yet when you talk to their parents they retain their various country accents(though softer).

This insecurity we have at times about the "de Brits" also translates to the rural/urban divide in irish too IMHO. This even attached to jobs. Civil servants would be thought of as "culshies" more than "jackeens". Ditto for the Garda. Picture a Guard and most people's first imaginings would picture them as a countryman who says "veHIcle". So I think Irish had an image problem among many people. It was considered a bit of a yokel language(Peig didnt help ). It might explain the reticence to engage with the laguange when there are so many ways to do so. It's image has gotten better which is a good thing, but they should really aim harder at that aspect. TG4 dubbing south park=bloody great. TG4 showing one on one interviews with some toothless oul wan discussing her work helping the priests=not so great. Ditto for the risible show with Irish "country and western" music.

I would say the welsh dont have that. Ditto the Basques, ditto all the ex soviet satelites. All of which kicked their language back into high gear with less funding and state support. I suspect the Scot may be similar to us though.

orourkeda wrote: »

As an example, I'm sure we've all heard the recent liveline programmes about the lack of facilities for CF sufferers. It's projects like this that the little money we have left should be spent putting right.

I would agree, as clearly pumping good money after bad as evidenced by the figures is hardly wise. Not unless it's aimed more precisely and avoids the serious screwups of the past.

Wibbs

Dick Turnip wrote: »

However, yeah I can't see too many unionists rushing to hang out in the centre. So as a cross community venture I can't see it being a huge success but then I presume that's not the thinking behind it.

I dunno. In the past quite a few protestants were speakers and preservers of the language. In that programme where the chap went around Ireland trying to just use it to get by, wasnt one of the people who could speak to him a Ulster protestant? Go further back. Elisibeth the first had a smattering of Irish. Then again she was an impressive mind where languages were concerned. IIRC she could speak about 5 and read greek and latin.

DJP

Hopefully the 20 Year National Strategy for the Irish Language that will be coming out over the next year will not be too little to late. The 33 recommendations of the Joint-Oireachtas committee are great, and many of them won't cost anything, but it will cost money to set up new cultural centres (although as Pat Carey said they need not be built from stratch but bought or transferred) but I hope this happens in the shorter-term. There is a huge problem in the Gaeltacht with the younger people. Many students going to the schools there don't come from families where Irish is spoken and they don't speak fluent Irish and they speak in English ALL THE TIME except generally when talking to teachers I suppose and perhaps some others. So young people socialising in the Gaeltacht often have non-Irish speakers amongst them and they generally speak in English so. That said I was in a pub in Bun and Inbhir in Gaoth Dobhair last month and there was a gang of fellas in their late 20's who were all speaking Irish together. The night before I was in a pub in An Bun Beag and there was a gang of 19 year olds and they were all speaking in English to one another. I think as people get older often they develop more pride in their native heritage and culture. The opening of Cultúrlann Uí Chanáin in Derry is great as is An Chultúrlann in West Belfast although the latter is a very poor area economically and outsiders wouldn't I suppose be attracted to socialising there often given how rough the area is. If we have cultural centres in Gaeltacht Quarters in the cities and more second-level gaelscoileanna crucially (there are campaigns for two more in Dublin) I would be optimistic. I was in FG for two years. Part of the reason I joined was that I got to know one of their gaeilgeóir councillors and was heartened by his and the other gaeilgeoirí in the partys' committment to bring in the best policies for the Irish language including auditing the money spent promoting it and having a big emphasis on marketing (one of the recommendations of the Oireachtas committee). The big marketing campaigns of the 20 Year Strategy may not being for several years though according to the current draft strategy, although I hope I am wrong. It will be great to see if there are any new residential developments built in Dublin City and South Dublin County Council over the next few years as the new naming policy says that they have to be named in Irish which is great for making the language visible which it needs more of.

I dont know

Do protestants have to learn it?

No, most state schools in the north don't cater for Irish.

Your question reminded me of this from Martin Rogan, the belfast boxer, in an interview a while back;
http://www.tribune.ie/archive/article/2009/oct/04/ring-for-your-taximan/
There's so much going on out there I see that politicians never notice. Like I picked up a guy in the taxi a while back in a really Protestant area and he told me he was going to do Irish lessons. I love that. I would love to see a Belfast like that and maybe I can help it happen. Sure it's another avenue for adventure

Wibbs

The thing is IMHO many of Darren J. Prior quoted recommendations are very much more of the same. The insistence on the new naming policy is a good example. For many it will feel like this guff is being forced on us yet again. Usually by outsiders, often by rural outsiders. The Dingle fiasco was a good example of this gombeenism. Rather than force this stuff, engage the locals. Make it an urban vital language(in rural areas too).

Make it an inclusive modern language that reflects modern Ireland. Distance it from GAA and all that stuff. Distance it from the dancing at the crossroads rubber lipped insular O'Ciuvism BS. Show kids the history and literature of the language. Show them the fact that it is the earliest written vernacular language in Europe. Show them the land of saints and scholars was built on it and that if you visited Charlemagnes court you would have bumped into some of the greatest thinkers of the early middle ages speaking it and writing in it. Show them that the revival of scolarship in mainland europe was driven by it. Detach it from the famine victim ragged and dying in ditches. Remove it from tragedy and some of the foam flecked chuckies and make it new and vital and intellectual, like once it was.

That silly cow Peig as described in that book summed for me up the major screwup of the revival of the Irish language. Who the hell wants to learn a language of the downbeat, the wizened tugger of forelocks to priests, the noble peasant, the unimaginative, the long gone and not mourned olde Ireland. Make it the language of kings and thinkers, just like it once was. An beal bocht my big hairy arse.

mike65

Irish language rap should fix it for the kids in the projects.

DJP

Wibbs wrote: »

The thing is IMHO many of Darren J. Prior quoted recommendations are very much more of the same. The insistence on the new naming policy is a good example. For many it will feel like this guff is being forced on us yet again. Usually by outsiders, often by rural outsiders. The Dingle fiasco was a good example of this gombeenism. Rather than force this stuff, engage the locals. Make it an urban vital language(in rural areas too).

The motions in Dublin were put down by Dubliners and voted on by Dubliners.

Wibbs

Darren J. Prior wrote: »

The motions in Dublin were put down by Dubliners and voted on by Dubliners.

You know what Im getting at. It's the usual BS tokenism and we can see how well that has gone in the last near 100 years. How else can you explain the dearth of the language in that space of time? After we got our independence and fervour was high you would have thought that if the majority wanted it we would be having this convo in Irish. It happened that way within 10 years in the Baltic states. Basque has come on in leaps and bounds since Franko shuffled off this mortal coil. Welsh as has been mentioned has come on since the 60's So again, why not here? Why not here when we have spent far more resources than any of those examples over a much longer time? IMHO it's the perception of the language as being From the Bog tm and we've a low level shame of that going on. The urban centres are a step forward, so long as they leave much of that "rural" guff behind.


BTW when I say rural I'm not describing or deriding people from the country. Not at all. Bertie Ahern I consider a bogger, though he's a dub born and bred. It's a mindset, not a locale.

InTheTrees

I have three neices and nephew in school in connemara and they tell me that the irish they're taught in school differs substantially from the irish thats spoken locally.

AlexderFranke

Well, as Welsh had been mentioned, let's compae the figures. I have looked into the survey of Welsh.

Speakers stated
Welsh ~650.000 = ~ 20%
Irish ~ 1.800.000 = ~30 %
Incuding border areas in England and Northern Ireland
Fluent speakers
Welsh ~ 400.000 - 500.000 = ~ 15%
Irish ~ 400.000 - 500.000 = ~ 7 - 8%
I have taken into account those who stated they have a fair amount of Welsh in order to consider overstimations in Irish surveys.
Knowledge below school age
Wales ~ 19% Ireland ~ 8%
Daily usage, % of those stated to know it
Wales ~ 60% Ireland max. 5%
Weekly usage
Wales ~ 80% Ireland perhaps 12%
From pupulation:
Daily Welsh: ~ 12% Irish ~ 1,5%
Weekly just over 15% Irish ~ 4%

As you can see, Welsh is in a far better health and provides less overstimated numbers of speakers. Only the total number of speakers seems to be favourable for Irish. But the other figures show that this number is simply rubbish. The numbers of fluent or truly competent speakers are probably equal, but the island of Ireland is more populated. With regard to the other figures, Irish clearly is weaker. Regarding usage, the difference is overwhelming!

Taispeáineann na figiúirí go léir gur i sláinte i bhfad níos fearr atá an Bhreatnais ina seasamh. Amháin maidir le huimhir na gcainteoirí uilig, d'fhéadfá a chreidiúint go bhfuil an Ghaeilge i suí níos fearr. Ach is soléir as na figiúirí eile gur brúscar atá san uinhir sin. Is dóigh go bhfuil timpeall an mhéid chéanna cainteoirí liofa nó fíor-réasúnta ann, ach go bhfuil oileán na h-Éireann níos plódaithe ná an Bhreatain Bheag. Maidir leis na figiúrí eile, is níos laige atá an Ghaeilge. Go háirithe i gcás na húsáide, is thar a bheith soléir atá an dhifríocht!
Ach Mar sin féin, go n-éirí an Ghaeilge libh!
Alex

AlexderFranke

In order not to overload one post, I will refer to language policies in the North in an extra post.
Well, I would suggest to create more cross-border equality in language policies for Irish. Irish should become compulsory for the JC or something comparable in the UK in Northern Ireland. On the other hand, Irish becomes optional after the JC in the Republic. Furthermore bilingual signage should become the rule in Northern Ireland, too.

Mholfainn níos mó aontachta thar-teorainnaí a chumadh de réir polasaí ar son na Gaeilge. Ba cheart an Ghaeilge a bheith éigeantach don Teastas Sóisearach nó scrúdú cosúil leis sa RA. Taobh eile, beidh an Ghaeilge roghnach tar éis an Teastas Sóiséarach sa Phoblacht. Agus thairis sin, ba chóir an chomharthaíocht dhátheangach a éirí coitianta sa Tuisceart.
Beannachtaí, Alex

GizAGoOfYerGee

AlexderFranke wrote: »

I have looked into the survey of Welsh.

Fluent speakers
Welsh ~ 400.000 - 500.000 = ~ 15%
Irish ~ 400.000 - 500.000 = ~ 7 - 8%

Cén suirbhé? Nasc?

400,000 fluent Irish speakers? What is the definition of "fluent" in relation to an Ghaeilge?

There can't be more than 10,000 native Irish speakers left.

The Welsh language didn't suffer under British rule like Irish did.

mike65

Those official figures are a joke, but they help keep the grant aid cash following,

DJP

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

Cén suirbhé? Nasc?

400,000 fluent Irish speakers? What is the definition of "fluent" in relation to an Ghaeilge?

There can't be more than 10,000 native Irish speakers left.

The Welsh language didn't suffer under British rule like Irish did.

There are I think 20,000 native Irish speakers in the real Gaeltacht as opposed to the 60,000 in the official Gaeltacht. I have heard it said that there are more people from the Gaeltacht living outside the Gaeltacht than in it. I don't know if this is true.

They have had a Welsh language television station in Wales now for I think nearly 30 years and noticeably it gets a lot more funding than TG4 does.

DJP

Wibbs wrote: »

You know what Im getting at. It's the usual BS tokenism and we can see how well that has gone in the last near 100 years. How else can you explain the dearth of the language in that space of time? After we got our independence and fervour was high you would have thought that if the majority wanted it we would be having this convo in Irish. It happened that way within 10 years in the Baltic states. Basque has come on in leaps and bounds since Franko shuffled off this mortal coil. Welsh as has been mentioned has come on since the 60's So again, why not here? Why not here when we have spent far more resources than any of those examples over a much longer time? IMHO it's the perception of the language as being From the Bog tm and we've a low level shame of that going on. The urban centres are a step forward, so long as they leave much of that "rural" guff behind.


BTW when I say rural I'm not describing or deriding people from the country. Not at all. Bertie Ahern I consider a bogger, though he's a dub born and bred. It's a mindset, not a locale.

And leaving aside the Irish language is there anything wrong if your house is surrounded by bogland. You seem to have a fixanation with the bog and country people. You even mention the bog on your profile.

I have not doubt though that you are right in relation to the image of Irish and the bog for a lot of people to use an image. If we had one internationaly known music band who were good and who also spoke Irish and sang songs in Irish I bet nearly all of these people would change their opinions overnight. They go with what they think (or rather feel- they DON'T think) is cool. Most of them are muppets from my experience and there are plenty of them on this site seemingly. I still would rather if they liked the Irish language instead of hating it though and spouting rubbish. Most grow with age though.