The case against Metro North - is there one?

Amtmann · 09-10-2010 8:38pm #1

Judgement Day wrote: »

Metro North should be consigned to the dustbin of history like the Bertie Bowl, Thornton Hall Prison, e-voting - a grandeoise project dreamt up by people living in la-la land.

What makes it a fantasist's project? Genuine question.

GizAGoOfYerGee · 09-10-2010 8:58pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Metro North should be consigned to the dustbin of history like the Bertie Bowl, Thornton Hall Prison, e-voting - a grandeoise project dreamt up by people living in la-la land.

No doubt you said the same about Luas and DART. :rolleyes:

Judgement Day · 09-10-2010 9:02pm

On cost grounds alone - €5/6 billion - and forget all the public/private tosh you read so much about. It has all the hallmarks of an FF back of the envelope job in terms of planning and the money - if it were there - could be much better spent on other things.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/dublin-metro/

Amtmann · 09-10-2010 9:10pm

It was announced today that the bill would be €2.5 billion.

rameire · 09-10-2010 9:12pm

the only real reason i see people going against metro north, is the fact its on the northside and not going through all the well to do areas of the south side of the city.

Judgement Day · 09-10-2010 9:24pm

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

No doubt you said the same about Luas and DART. :rolleyes:

Friend how little you know me. I was advocating trams on the Harcourt Street line as far back as 1982 and calling for the DART project to be implemented from when it was first mooted.

Judgement Day · 09-10-2010 9:26pm

Furet wrote: »

It was announced today that the bill would be €2.5 billion.

And you believe that? Even if that were the cost there are other more important items to be spend money on.

LeinsterDub · 09-10-2010 9:33pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

And you believe that? Even if that were the cost there are other more important items to be spend money on.

Such as ?

Amtmann · 09-10-2010 9:37pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

And you believe that? Even if that were the cost there are other more important items to be spend money on.

I think that if you look at the management of infrastructural projects over the past five years, generally they have been managed pretty well. The prices quoted amount to 2.5 billion. I don't see how they could be underestimated by 100% or more, quite frankly. Do you favour a re-worked version of MN or targeting other transport areas, or do you just favour a halt on transport spending? I don't know what is more important than this project and DART underground in terms of preparing the capital's transport infrastructure the remainder of the century.

By the way: Kevin Myers used to write like that? He has seriously degenerated.

Judgement Day · 09-10-2010 9:39pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Such as ?

Wow, you managed two words in this post! If I really have to spell out to you all the things that money could be better spent on there is no point. Sorry, I have better things to do with my time.

Amtmann · 09-10-2010 9:43pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Wow, you managed two words in this post! If I really have to spell out to you all the things that money could be better spent on there is no point. Sorry, I have better things to do with my time.

To be honest I think it's a fair question JD. You asserted that MN is basically a delusional project and beyond saying it'll cost 5 or 6 billion (figures 100% in excess of our latest information) you don't seem to be elaborating. You don't have to of course, but I for one admire your knowledge of rail systems and would appreciate a more thorough explanation from you, if you'd be willing to offer it.

Judgement Day · 09-10-2010 9:44pm

Furet wrote: »

I think that if you look at the management of infrastructural projects over the past five years, generally they have been managed pretty well. The prices quoted amount to 2.5 billion. I don't see how they could be underestimated by 100% or more, quite frankly. Do you favour a re-worked version of MN or targeting other transport areas, or do you just favour a halt on transport spending? I don't know what is more important than this project and DART underground in terms of preparing the capital's transport infrastructure the remainder of the century.

By the way: Kevin Myers used to write like that? He has seriously degenerated.

I will agree with you about Kevin Myers, he is a seriously intelligent person and a good writer who is wasted at the chip wrapper but now that the 'paper of record' has dumbed down what is he left to do?

As regards spending on transport, I'm against any project that involves CIE/IE and so the Inter-connector gets the thumbs down too. The Metro North project is like something that Brian Guckian would design with his marker set and will gobble up money in a way that will make the original Luas lines cost overruns look like a drop in the ocean.

loyatemu · 09-10-2010 10:58pm

its insanely expensive for a project that will serve only a small corridor and the airport (which seems to be getting along alright with private bus competition at the moment thanks to the billions we've already sunk into the Port Tunnel).

You could do a hell of a lot for transport throughout the city with that money - and I don't mean by giving it to Dublin Bus (who have demonstrated their incompetence with the network direct project), but rather by redesigning the bus network from the ground up, re-engineering the road infrastructure to accomodate and prioritise this new network and franchising out the routes.

The proposed "Blueline" discussed in the Times today is the sort of thing we should be looking at, alongside Luas, for a fraction of the price of MN and serving the entire city and complementing the Interconnector. (I have my qualms about that too based largely on my distrust of Irish Rail - the idea itself is sound though). Swords Express also demonstrates what can be achieved without the need to invest billions.

Propellerhead · 09-10-2010 11:01pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

I will agree with you about Kevin Myers, he is a seriously intelligent person and a good writer who is wasted at the chip wrapper but now that the 'paper of record' has dumbed down what is he left to do?

As regards spending on transport, I'm against any project that involves CIE/IE and so the Inter-connector gets the thumbs down too. The Metro North project is like something that Brian Guckian would design with his marker set and will gobble up money in a way that will make the original Luas lines cost overruns look like a drop in the ocean.

But is it? Unless I'm much mistaken there is a very detailed EIS and detailed line design drawings at www.dublinmetronorth.ie. Hardly crayonism, and abandoning the DART-U because it connects two CIE rail lines is balls.

Propellerhead · 09-10-2010 11:04pm

loyatemu wrote: »

its insanely expensive for a project that will serve only a small corridor and the airport (which seems to be getting along alright with private bus competition at the moment thanks to the billions we've already sunk into the Port Tunnel).

You could do a hell of a lot for transport throughout the city with that money - and I don't mean by giving it to Dublin Bus (who have demonstrated their incompetence with the network direct project), but rather by redesigning the bus network from the ground up, re-engineering the road infrastructure to accomodate and prioritise this new network and franchising out the routes.

The proposed "Blueline" discussed in the Times today is the sort of thing we should be looking at, alongside Luas, for a fraction of the price of MN and serving the entire city and complementing the Interconnector. (I have my qualms about that too based largely on my distrust of Irish Rail - the idea itself is sound though). Swords Express also demonstrates what can be achieved without the need to invest billions.

The so called blue line is balls. A reheated version of route 52 and it doesn't even get to Sydney Parade

coolperson05 · 10-10-2010 1:02am

My only opinion against MN is because its another form of transport to confuse people. Goin from DARTS to buses to metros to luas etc. I think that the luas should have been underground from the beginning, but we have it now, so my personal feeling is join the lines (OBVIOUSLY). Expand the luas to perhaps places like UCD/Swords if possible, get the interconnector built and build a rail spur off to the airport. Thats the single biggest missing link, the airport. But I think a heavy rail link/DART link would better serve it to the many transport links already in place. MN is a fantastic idea, but its about 8 years too late!

monument · 10-10-2010 1:11am

loyatemu wrote: »

its insanely expensive for a project that will serve only a small corridor and the airport (which seems to be getting along alright with private bus competition at the moment thanks to the billions we've already sunk into the Port Tunnel).

€2.5 billion is insanely expensive for an 18km route which uses cut and cover and bore tunnelling?

With respect, what do you mean by a small corridor?

It covers:

Areas north of Swords: Served by a park and ride
Swords: One of the largest Dublin commuter towns
Dublin Airport -- is an employment centre as well as a transport hub
Northwood: Fairly high density and currently not served very well
Ballymun
DCU: 1,000 plus students, plus staff, plus the Helix
Glasnevin: Different parts are covered
Santry: Is also near to the DCU stop
Drumcondra has Croke Park, St Pats and an interchange to what is planned to be a Dart line
Mater: The hospital and it covers parts of Phibsboro and other near by north inner city areas
Parnell Square: Close to a fair bit of housing, tourist attractions, shopping areas, the Rotunda Hospital etc
O'Connell Bridge: Red Line Luas, shops, offices... Need I go on?
St Stephen's Green: Shopping, offices, tourist attractions etc and with the Luas Green line and the planned Dart underground.

loyatemu wrote: »

You could do a hell of a lot for transport throughout the city with that money - and I don't mean by giving it to Dublin Bus (who have demonstrated their incompetence with the network direct project), but rather by redesigning the bus network from the ground up, re-engineering the road infrastructure to accomodate and prioritise this new network and franchising out the routes.

What you're talking about here is miracle work. It's a lovely idea, but the politics of Dublin streets and roads isn't that simple.

Try getting more than a hand full of politicians to support real bus priority. You'd need a lot more bus gates. The mass removal of parking and loading bays. Bus lanes that don't turn into left turning lanes, which in turn slows the main private traffic lanes.

Look at what happened with the College Green bus gate, and look at the opposition to some of the QBCs which have gotten them watered down or cancelled.

loyatemu wrote: »

The proposed "Blueline" discussed in the Times today is the sort of thing we should be looking at, alongside Luas, for a fraction of the price of MN and serving the entire city and complementing the Interconnector. (I have my qualms about that too based largely on my distrust of Irish Rail - the idea itself is sound though). Swords Express also demonstrates what can be achieved without the need to invest billions.

Comparing a 6km busway in suburbia using green space with an 18km partly underground light railway which goes under much of the city centre isn't really valid is it?

The proposed Blue Line works (or at least is planned to) at that price because the roads around Sandyford Industrial Estate have enough space for it, the Drummartin Road has enough space or can be expanded without too much trouble, it it apparently rips across a lot of green land (parks allotments etc), there's a good deal of space for it in UCD, and the N11 isn't too much of a problem (not sure what is planned for Nutley Lane).

There's no room in much of the city without a massive displacement of cars or massive land-take and destruction.

AngryLips · 10-10-2010 8:24am

coolperson05 wrote: »

My only opinion against MN is because its another form of transport to confuse people. Goin from DARTS to buses to metros to luas etc.

How many Luas lines could we get for the price of Metro North?

Propellerhead · 10-10-2010 9:28am

AngryLips wrote: »

How many Luas lines could we get for the price of Metro North?

Can you show us where a Luas serving Drumcondra, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport and Swords would go with proper priority over all traffic could go?

You will notice that there is no reserved corridor equivalent to the Harcourt Street line or the old CIE reserved lands from Red Cow to Tallaght. There would have been a route from Liffey Junction via Glasnevin and Ballymun under the 1970s Dublin Rail Rapid Transit Study which very nearly happened, but was killed by the FitzGerald and Haughey governments.

The only alternative would be to run trams to the airport onstreet using par t of the BXD route up Dorset Street, past the Cat and Cage to Collins Avenue and Ballymun to the Airport. Giving proper priority to trams on that route would get the car lobby into the trenches and after killing Metro North, that would be killed too.

The war on Metro North is just another phase of the war against rail based public transport. I remember all the guff against DART and Luas when they were moving from the drawing board to construction. They were white elephants, the country couldn't afford them and there were cheaper alternatives. In the meantime, the reserved routes set aside for the airport and the Tallaght busway from Mount Argus were quietly built on. More lolly for some and poxy transport for the rest of us for years.

As Frank McDonald said at the time about the Luas bashers in 1996, the real agenda was to get Luas cancelled and divert the moneys into the road building programme.

Hootanany · 10-10-2010 9:39am

Get the people that are on the dole to build it
It would be very cheap then

etchyed · 10-10-2010 11:07am

Saw this on Archiseek:

RPA - Metro North Myths and Facts

Most people here already know that the myths listed are nonsense but nonetheless it's a nice summary of things that can not be used in the case against Metro North.

Pete_Cavan · 10-10-2010 11:24am

Just wanted to add a few things to Monument's list.

It covers:

Areas north of Swords: Served by a park and ride for 2,600 cars
Swords: One of the largest Dublin commuter towns
Dublin Airport -- is an employment centre as well as a transport hub with capacity for 35m passengers p.a. when T2 opens
Northwood: Fairly high density and currently not served very well
Regenerated Ballymun with projected population of 40,000 (stop integrated into Theasury Holdings Ballymun Town Centre development)
DCU: 10,000 students, plus staff, plus the Helix
Glasnevin: Different parts are covered
Santry: Is also near to the DCU stop
Drumcondra has Croke Park, St Pats and an interchange to what is planned to be a Dart line
Mater Hospital and future National Childrens Hospital (with station already built as part of Mater redevelopment). It also covers parts of Phibsboro and other near by north inner city areas
Parnell Square: Close to a fair bit of housing, tourist attractions, shopping areas, the Rotunda Hospital etc
O'Connell Bridge: Red Line Luas, shops, offices (with enabling work done to allow delivery of BXD in the near future)
St Stephen's Green: Shopping, offices, tourist attractions etc and with the Luas Green line and the planned Dart underground (with enabling work done to allow delivery of interconnector in the future).

There are no other projects in this country that are ready to go that serve as many hopitals, universities, employment centres, shopping and leisure facilities, transport interchanges, tourist attractions and medium density residential areas. There is absolutely no case for scrapping MN in favour of any other projects as it will benefit the whole country more than any other combination of projects. Dublin is the driving force of our economy whether people like it or not and investing in Dublin will provide the biggest return for the country and offers value for money in terms of the number of people to benefit for the scheme.

DWCommuter · 10-10-2010 7:36pm

What are we supposed to be getting for 2.5 billion?

Does it include rolling stock, station fit outs, further CPOs, insurance, associated admin fees, cost over run figures? The list goes on.

This latest figure is no more concrete that any other figure. The details are sketchy and "sources" unconfirmed.

As for a case against metro north....I fear, if it is built, some Irish Government in the future, will find yet another "concept", talk and talk, build a "bit" of it and then rush off to further investigate the standards our European neighbours have reached while we languished in a sea of inertia and metro north was left as an isolated example of what could have been.

So the case against it is the political culture itself. I have no faith in it and its the soul reason this country's public transport system is dire. We define success as over crowded luas trams, when they are just an example of how few efficient modes of public transport exist.

L1011 · 10-10-2010 7:50pm

The 2.5Bn should get us a fully operational Metro transferred to the state in 30/40/50 years time (whatever the contract is for).

The PPP fees (and the fare revenue? dunno...) would go to the concessionaire who would have to build, kit out and operate it.

Judgement Day · 10-10-2010 8:17pm

MYOB wrote: »

The 2.5Bn should get us a fully operational Metro transferred to the state in 30/40/50 years time (whatever the contract is for).

The PPP fees (and the fare revenue? dunno...) would go to the concessionaire who would have to build, kit out and operate it.

OK - just supposing that €2.5 billion is the price, just how much is the taxpayer forking out?

murphaph · 10-10-2010 8:22pm

Something else that I don't think has been said:
MN should be just the first part of a comprehensive network, like everywhere else, we have to start somewhere.

L1011 · 10-10-2010 8:26pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

OK - just supposing that €2.5 billion is the price, just how much is the taxpayer forking out?

2.5Bn over the period of the contract. I thought that'd be fairly obvious from it being "the price".

AngryLips · 10-10-2010 8:43pm

Propellerhead wrote: »

Can you show us where a Luas serving Drumcondra, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport and Swords would go with proper priority over all traffic could go?

You will notice that there is no reserved corridor equivalent to the Harcourt Street line or the old CIE reserved lands from Red Cow to Tallaght. There would have been a route from Liffey Junction via Glasnevin and Ballymun under the 1970s Dublin Rail Rapid Transit Study which very nearly happened, but was killed by the FitzGerald and Haughey governments.

The only alternative would be to run trams to the airport onstreet using par t of the BXD route up Dorset Street, past the Cat and Cage to Collins Avenue and Ballymun to the Airport. Giving proper priority to trams on that route would get the car lobby into the trenches and after killing Metro North, that would be killed too.

The war on Metro North is just another phase of the war against rail based public transport. I remember all the guff against DART and Luas when they were moving from the drawing board to construction. They were white elephants, the country couldn't afford them and there were cheaper alternatives. In the meantime, the reserved routes set aside for the airport and the Tallaght busway from Mount Argus were quietly built on. More lolly for some and poxy transport for the rest of us for years.

As Frank McDonald said at the time about the Luas bashers in 1996, the real agenda was to get Luas cancelled and divert the moneys into the road building programme.

Thanks. To answer my own question, and going about it with some naive assumptions, where the cost of the Luas Cherrywood extension at €300m for 7.5km the price of Metro North could get us 112km of extra Luas where Metro North cost €2.5b. In other words the network would be three times as large as it is now.

edit: estimate cost of MN

Godge · 10-10-2010 10:09pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Just wanted to add a few things to Monument's list.

It covers:
Areas north of Swords: Served by a park and ride for 2,600 cars

Swords: One of the largest Dublin commuter towns

Dublin Airport -- is an employment centre as well as a transport hub with capacity for 35m passengers p.a. when T2 opens

Northwood: Fairly high density and currently not served very well

Regenerated Ballymun with projected population of 40,000 (stop integrated into Theasury Holdings Ballymun Town Centre development)

DCU: 10,000 students, plus staff, plus the Helix

Glasnevin: Different parts are covered

Santry: Is also near to the DCU stop

Drumcondra has Croke Park, St Pats and an interchange to what is planned to be a Dart line

Mater Hospital and future National Childrens Hospital (with station already built as part of Mater redevelopment). It also covers parts of Phibsboro and other near by north inner city areas

Parnell Square: Close to a fair bit of housing, tourist attractions, shopping areas, the Rotunda Hospital etc

O'Connell Bridge: Red Line Luas, shops, offices (with enabling work done to allow delivery of BXD in the near future)

St Stephen's Green: Shopping, offices, tourist attractions etc and with the Luas Green line and the planned Dart underground (with enabling work done to allow delivery of interconnector in the future).

There are no other projects in this country that are ready to go that serve as many hopitals, universities, employment centres, shopping and leisure facilities, transport interchanges, tourist attractions and medium density residential areas. There is absolutely no case for scrapping MN in favour of any other projects as it will benefit the whole country more than any other combination of projects. Dublin is the driving force of our economy whether people like it or not and investing in Dublin will provide the biggest return for the country and offers value for money in terms of the number of people to benefit for the scheme.

DART Interconnector - no need to list it all - but more than Metro North.

monument · 10-10-2010 11:01pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Thanks. To answer my own question, and going about it with some naive assumptions, where the cost of the Luas Cherrywood extension at €300m for 7.5km the price of Metro North could get us 112km of extra Luas where Metro North cost €2.5b. In other words the network would be three times as large as it is now.

edit: estimate cost of MN

Luas Cherrywood is at the cheaper end of the scale. It is mostly via new development and green fields.

Metro North on the other hand is mostly via urban built up areas. The first section of the Green Line on an old railway. Even the Red Line was mostly where there was space already -- ie along a canal, there was enough room on the Naas Road, and along other green space.

Besides costly diversion of utilities, there has been very little displacement of cars. But where there is displacement for cars for public transport-- ie the Green Line and Hardcore Street, the bus gate etc -- there has been outrage.

DWCommuter · 11-10-2010 1:19am

MYOB wrote: »

The 2.5Bn should get us a fully operational Metro transferred to the state in 30/40/50 years time (whatever the contract is for).

The PPP fees (and the fare revenue? dunno...) would go to the concessionaire who would have to build, kit out and operate it.

But isn't 2.5 billion just the direct construction cost? What about the associated costs? Do those who build it, operate it? What about rolling stock? What about the minute details of the project? Who funds that?

After so many posts, personal insults (across this forum) the REAL cost has not been verified. Apparently the RPA have spent 126 million on property already. I still fail to accept a figure of just 2.5 billion to deliver an operational metro.

Can anybody stand up here and verify the figure via a detailed breakdown?

The case against Metro North - is there one?

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