Why not bring back milk bottles?

Macha · 08-06-2009 02:21PM

spacetweek wrote: »

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea. It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper. The shop in London is an anomoly that will never see mass adoption. It's only tapping into the greenie market, which is a small one.

Well you also have to consider that excess packaging is also quite a hassle for the consumer in terms of having to bring it all home and dispose of it. Plus the double cost of paying for the packaging (within the cost of the product) and then paying for its disposal (through bin charges).

Sure, it won't suit everyone all of the time but if you'd be surprised what creatures of habit we are, expecially when it comes to things like the weekly food shop. Look how quickly we adjusted to the tax on plastic bags.

I also always think it's important to remember that our current lifestyles are far from permanent and have really only existed for a relatively short period of time. I'm not saying we go back to live in caves but even 40/50 years ago people managed to survive just fine without the immense amount of packaging we produce today.

Another issue is that packaging can increase the shelf-life of products, particularly during transportation. But for me, this is just another reason to try to buy local.

spacetweek wrote: »

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

Totally agree. But there is the hierarchy of waste: reduce, reuse, recycle.

monument · 09-06-2009 02:29AM

positron wrote: »

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

I've been meaning to look into this further since visiting Germany last year. Tried a quick Google afterwards, but found nothing.

But the bottles they use (in Germany at least, can't remember about the US) are far harder plastic which could possibly be washed at higher temperatures and would last longer.

Might also try to ask Repak about some of this.

positron · 09-06-2009 09:10AM

Just had a look at the repack.ie, and they have posted a 'report' on the same topic in September 2008.

Its a PDF: http://www.repak.ie/files/Deposits_for_Ireland_September_2008_final.pdf

and here's the key findings (another PDF): http://www.repak.ie/files/perchards_-_key_messages_FINAL_4_Nov.pdf

In the report they are discussing existing German system, US system etc, and in short, they are against it.

Just some interesting bits:

The government’s brief does not indicate specific objectives for a deposit, but the Environment Minister, John Gormley TD, is understood to see deposits as a way to tackle the litter problem and to boost recycling rates.

Potential impact on litter - The National Litter Survey for 2006 indicates that drinks containers (excluding cartons) represent 5.36% of total litter, with all packaging representing 13% of litter. This indicates that a deposit could reduce the incidence of drinks containers in packaging, but it would have little impact on total litter. Other litter surveys undertaken around the world have reached the same conclusion. Through Repak, Irish industry is already helping to combat litter, and it is unlikely that a deposit would result in significant cost savings for Irish local authorities on litter abatement activities.

I have only read about half of the document, and I am not entirely convinced if they have taken all aspects into consideration. Some of the points mentioned are really minor, but since its mentioned with a scale in the large scheme of things, they stand out as major issues against the plan..

For instance, here:

Milk is exempt from deposit requirements in Europe and most jurisdictions in the US and Canada. Fruit and vegetable juices and nectars are exempt from most European deposit requirements and in most US states, although many Canadian provinces include them.
These drinks categories have been excluded from deposit requirements for a variety of reasons. These include:
•
Milk and juice are mostly consumed at home, so they are not considered to contribute to the litter problem;

What about the 'reuse'? Less plastic out in the landfills etc?

I don't know, may be they have sussed it correctly, but may be someone is afraid of change...

Macha · 09-06-2009 09:41AM

Juts thought I'd add the Wikipedia page in as another source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation

Funsterdelux · 09-06-2009 10:40AM

taconnol wrote: »

I also always think it's important to remember that our current lifestyles are far from permanent and have really only existed for a relatively short period of time. I'm not saying we go back to live in caves but even 40/50 years ago people managed to survive just fine without the immense amount of packaging we produce today.

Another issue is that packaging can increase the shelf-life of products, particularly during transportation. But for me, this is just another reason to try to buy local.

I grew up in the country on a small part time farm (cattle/sheep) and come from a family of 7. I remember going out with my mother and milking the cow, we had one cow for our own milk and we used to churn our own butter. We had just the one car and my mother would have gone to the shops once a week on a Saturday and got everything we needed for the week. We didn’t have much money and just got by.

That was twenty five years ago. Now I don’t live at home, but since we all grew up and started working ourselves (siblings) and there’s only one of my brothers living at home now, they can't go 2 days without having to go to the shop for something. It’s crazy, I'm no better, we’ve turned into a horrid consumer society. So I have to agree with taconnol, the way we're living has only really come down in the last shower.

First we got rid of the railways, then the milk bottles. With all the packaging, still bread only lasts a couple of days, bread I make myself lasts longer without any foreign objects. Buying local is the way forward I think, with the price of oil going up and it will go up again transporting products which can be sourced locally from faraway places is and was and forever will be ridiculous.

It just pure laziness on all our parts, I think the curriculum in both primary and secondary schools should include a obligatory subject called life, which would take everything into account including where food comes from and where the waste goes!

End of rant

positron · 09-06-2009 12:36PM

I can totally relate to Funsterdelux's post.

I grew up in village surroundings myself, and we always had a cow or two for our own milk. When our cows stops producing milk, we always bought milk from the neighbors - either they dropped it over to us daily, or someone goes and picks it up. We also sold milk when we had excess!

That's not all. At grocers, merchandise usually was wrapped in old newspaper sheets, and wet and/or smelly items like fresh fish, meat etc was always wrapped in leaves of the teak wood! (That should give you and idea where I grew up..!) and when done with them, cows would eat these leaves!

Occasionally we used to eat out of banana leaves (which again cows would gobble down, no need to wash anything), and we also make spoons / scoops out of jackfruit leaves (its dead simple to make), to scoop out yummy rice dishes out of the plate / bowl. We also used to use baskets made of palm and/or coconut leaves to keep our own harvest of rice, mangoes and all sorts such yummy stuff.

In fact even today, my parents live the above lifestyle. They also have three acres of land where they produce almost everything they need - black pepper, cashew nuts, ginger, turmeric, green chillies, rice, coconut, all sorts of vegetables and fruits like mangoes, pineapples, papayas etc.

But even there the milk cartons and polythene wrapping has replaced traditional methods. Recently government there banned non-biodegradable polythene bags - one small steps in the right direction.

When I moved to Ireland (a long time ago), throwing away perfectly fine 2l milk cans was such a shock to my system - it really took me months to get used the idea someone "might recycle it" rather than just reusing it! Same with the packaging of a bag of cornflakes for instance - what a waste of paper! Something that will be consumed in a matter of weeks does not require a hard paper shell that can last years!

I cringe every time I hear the like of George Bush talk about the increasing consumption from emerging economies like India and China. Oh the hypocrisy!

Apologies for ranting outside the topic, I just had to say it. Coming back to the the repack.ie report - does anyone else thing they have totally ignored the 'reuse' aspect of the idea?

bokspring71 · 11-06-2009 08:47AM

We all wring our hands at waste and mutter about being more green, but its a fact that we are the least "green" generation that has ever existed on the planet.

Compare your own life to that of your grandparents and see how much more green they were. Not only that but many people of your grandparents generation couldn't abide waste and even recycled their christmas wrapping paper. They would never have bought strawberries in blown disposable plastic boxes which have one time use before being disposed of, would never have bought milk in disopsable packaging and used a fraction of the fossil fuels , per person, to that which we use today.

Now, here's a question. I electric cars are so good, how do we heat them in winter and air condition them in summer?

Del2005 · 11-06-2009 12:20PM

bokspring71 wrote: »

Now, here's a question. I electric cars are so good, how do we heat them in winter and air condition them in summer?

For summer. All cars use electricity to drive the air con and fans, it just comes from the battery/alternator which gets power from the engine.

For winter. Same as the some of the newer diesels, with electric heaters.

RedPlanet · 11-06-2009 03:44PM

positron: bottles doesn't have to be glass. In fact, plastic is probably better as they are unbreakable and can take more abuse (on the way back to the shop).

I'm pretty sure this would be prohibited as plastic bottles are generally not safe for re-use.
They leach carcinogens and other toxic chemicals.
http://environment.about.com/od/healthenvironment/a/plastic_bottles.htm

Run_to_da_hills · 12-06-2009 01:46AM

One disadvantage of returning to milk bottles is that birds tend to pick through the tin foil caps and swipe the cream. :mad:

positron · 12-06-2009 09:11AM

RedPlanet, thanks for that perspective. However, I believe the bottles are already in wide use in other countries? May be there is better technology out there to avoid these issues?

In fact, if we can get over the safety and transport aspect of heavier glass bottles, they are still probably the best choice - as glass easier to reuse, and recycle than plastic.

Run_to_da_hills, not a problem as we are discussing bringing the bottles back to the shop. Only the reusable bottles need to come back, not the distribution system (although, that's a possibility on safer communities, giving youngsters a way to earn some pocket money and fight obesity at the same time).

bonkey · 12-06-2009 09:57AM

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this would be prohibited as plastic bottles are generally not safe for re-use.
They leach carcinogens and other toxic chemicals.
http://environment.about.com/od/healthenvironment/a/plastic_bottles.htm

As the article you link to notes, there are safe(r) plastics, such as PE - which is what is used for milk here in Switzerland.

dogbert27 · 16-07-2009 11:09AM

As I walk my dog every morning I was thinking of the deposit return system of other countries as I try to navigate him around shardes of broken glass bottles scattered around the towns footpaths.

It's not just Germany and the US. This system is done in other European countries too and why it is needed here more than anything is for the reason stated above, removal of litter/ unintelligent vandalism. I was in Finland recently where at May day festival there were people walking around the park picking up empty bottles in large plastic bags to go and get money for them. If people can get money for their returns then they will bring them back.

I think the problem in this country is as always the consumer will get ripped off. If a supermarket was to offer this service then it is almost certain that you won't get your money back. You'll get "club points" for your returns. If you don't have a club card then "sorry, we can't take your returns!"

The system has to be user friendly but if it's set up here it's almost a guarantee it won't be.

As for bringing your own container to a supermarket to fill up with milk. Good in theory but what if somebody brings in a spoilt container (not necessaily a dirty container but it might contain harmful bacteria) and get's sick. No doubt the consumer will blame the supermarket's milk not their container and will sue the supermarket. To me it would be too much hassle for the supermarket.

CJhaughey · 16-07-2009 12:31PM

It is only here in the south that the glass milk bottle has gone, in the north they still have glass milk bottles.
Why don't we just ape their system?

djpbarry · 16-07-2009 12:34PM

dogbert27 wrote: »

This system is done in other European countries too and why it is needed here more than anything is for the reason stated above, removal of litter/ unintelligent vandalism.

The system doesn’t seem to deter people from smashing bottles on the pavements of Berlin.

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think the problem in this country is as always the consumer will get ripped off. If a supermarket was to offer this service then it is almost certain that you won't get your money back. You'll get "club points" for your returns. If you don't have a club card then "sorry, we can't take your returns!"

Some people said the same thing about the Producer Recycling Fund, but that has worked out pretty well (as far as I know).

dogbert27 wrote: »

As for bringing your own container to a supermarket to fill up with milk. Good in theory but what if somebody brings in a spoilt container (not necessaily a dirty container but it might contain harmful bacteria) and get's sick.

Shouldn’t be a problem if the containers are being properly sterilised.

dogbert27 · 16-07-2009 01:39PM

The system doesn’t seem to deter people from smashing bottles on the pavements of Berlin.

Yeah I know, just venting my frustration of the particular issue. No matter what city you go to you'll find litter, smashed bottles, etc.

Some people said the same thing about the Producer Recycling Fund, but that has worked out pretty well (as far as I know).

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. The Producer Recycling Fund is a charge that's added to a product that you are buying. This return system is supposed to give back money not be an extra charge.

Shouldn’t be a problem if the containers are being properly sterilised.

The temperature for sterilisation is 121.5 deg. C. What I was trying to infer is the the general public will assume that a container cleaned with hot tap water is a clean container to take the shop.

Judgement Day · 16-07-2009 02:52PM

In short - can't, shan't and won't - the official Irish response to most things. So much for can do policies. :mad:

djpbarry · 16-07-2009 03:11PM

dogbert27 wrote: »

The Producer Recycling Fund is a charge that's added to a product that you are buying.

It could also be thought of as an up-front charge to fund the disposal of the product.

dogbert27 wrote: »

What I was trying to infer is the the general public will assume that a container cleaned with hot tap water is a clean container to take the shop.

Oh sorry - I misunderstood. Well, that's a food safety issue really - the consumers would have to take responsibility for their own well-being. And to fair, washing something out well with hot (55 degrees or so), soapy water will get rid of virtually all contaminants. It won't be sterile, but it shouldn't contain a sufficient number of microbes to cause infection.

positron · 17-07-2009 09:35AM

djpbarry wrote: »

It could also be thought of as an up-front charge to fund the disposal of the product.
Oh sorry - I misunderstood. Well, that's a food safety issue really - the consumers would have to take responsibility for their own well-being. And to fair, washing something out well with hot (55 degrees or so), soapy water will get rid of virtually all contaminants. It won't be sterile, but it shouldn't contain a sufficient number of microbes to cause infection.

I agree. If consumers are bringing own containers, it becomes their own responsibility to make sure that its clean. May be the supermarkets could provide a steam tap next to the milk tap for those who want to use it, but at the end of the day, responsibility remains with the consumer in that scenario - its a lot like the petrol stations really..!

positron · 20-09-2010 02:04PM

Apologies for digging up an old thread - but just wanted to add a link to an appeal from Bill Bryson / CPRE - they are campaigning for introduction of a similar system in UK. It would be interesting to see how this goes there, and how that would influence the Irish Government's thought process.

http://e-activist.com/ea-campaign/clientcampaign.do?ea.client.id=21&ea.campaign.id=7604&ea.tracking.id=facebook-bill-bryson

CPRE - Campaign to Protect Rural England. It's headed by Bill Bryson.

mgmt · 22-09-2010 02:31PM

positron wrote: »

Apologies for digging up an old thread - but just wanted to add a link to an appeal from Bill Bryson / CPRE - they are campaigning for introduction of a similar system in UK. It would be interesting to see how this goes there, and how that would influence the Irish Government's thought process.

http://e-activist.com/ea-campaign/clientcampaign.do?ea.client.id=21&ea.campaign.id=7604&ea.tracking.id=facebook-bill-bryson

CPRE - Campaign to Protect Rural England. It's headed by Bill Bryson.

No thanks.

djpbarry · 22-09-2010 03:53PM

mgmt wrote: »

No thanks.

If you have nothing of value to contribute, then don't post.

ocko · 24-09-2010 07:17PM

Hi friends, Thanks for sharing such a good information which is useful for everyone. I am new to the forum and i am glad to be here.

Banned for shilling

Corsendonk · 28-09-2010 04:13PM

Could do but will the public be funding the smaller dairies to change there lines back to glass and buy the new head fillers for glass? Then there is the sterilisation, storage etc of glass. To change the head filling machinary would be in the region of 250k.

They have tried the milk in the bag concept in the UK to reduce plastic use.

positron · 28-09-2010 04:38PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

To change the head filling machinary would be in the region of 250k.

Fair point, however, this would only be a problem if the small setups sell directly to homes. If they are providing to shops, they can provide milk in a tanker (or a mini-tanker..!) straight to the shops who should have the "milk on tap" facility.

Corsendonk · 28-09-2010 05:58PM

positron wrote: »

Fair point, however, this would only be a problem if the small setups sell directly to homes. If they are providing to shops, they can provide milk in a tanker (or a mini-tanker..!) straight to the shops who should have the "milk on tap" facility.

Do you have any idea of retail or food safety?

What way do you actually plan to sell milk in? Piped from a tanker in the yard into a special tap in store? Or large dispensers on the shop floor?

The piped lines will have to be cleaned on regular bases and you can't flush that into a drain as milk is a pollutant so you suddenly have to have an extra storage facility for that too for the dairies to pick up plus the large tanker with a refrigerating unit generating noise in the yard and residents in the area complaining already about existing noise levels. Then you have to monitor the entire system or link it into the store refrigeration monitoring system, HACCP then as its an exposed product, lab testing of the product to ensure its microbial safe.

There are 15 dairies in ROI from the large glanbia/kerry operations to the smaller regional dairies like clona. Basically if all the above is overcome the retailers will bring that system in with the large dairies paying for it so you end up with Glanbia/ Kerry wiping out the competition. Milk is usually the number one seller in every supermarket so your talking about handing serious volume over to a smaller supplier base.

Lets say we did bring back glass, you will need to redesign the milk trollies that you buy your milk from in the supermarkets as they are designed for plastic bottles, or redesign fridge shelving for glass bottles.

positron · 28-09-2010 09:08PM

Corsendonk wrote: »

Do you have any idea of retail or food safety?

Actually, no! I know absolutely nothing about retail food safety and other technical issues around it. I am just an average Joe who thought of one side of the idea, and wanted to float it out there to get some feedbacks, exactly like what you are providing here. And thank you for them - very valid points that a lot of boardies here would not know much about.

Corsendonk wrote: »

What way do you actually plan to sell milk in? Piped from a tanker in the yard into a special tap in store? Or large dispensers on the shop floor?...

Very valid points indeed. Although the thread title talks about milk bottles, the discussion so far has been around all types of bottles, and the general idea was to introduce some sort of incentive for bringing the bottles / cans / cartons back, so that it can be recycled and/or reused - instead of polluting our lives and that of a next few generations!

From what you posted, I do gather the risks involved in the 'milk tap' approach. The only reason I suggested the 'tap' idea was to support the refill idea, so that someone like me can go into the supermarket and fill up my own milk bottle and take it home. While tap is a bit of a stretch, I am sure there might be way to get around it - for example if the milk was to be delivered in smaller containers like beer kegs that gets delivered to the pubs, and if that comes with a tap (and shops can sell by weight may be, which can be very easy and non-contact way of measuring the milk), and if empty ones get's cleaned and refilled back at the farm/processing area, it probably reduces the risks somewhat, may be. Just thinking out loud..!

Del2005 · 03-10-2010 06:52AM

positron wrote: »

Actually, no! I know absolutely nothing about retail food safety and other technical issues around it. I am just an average Joe who thought of one side of the idea, and wanted to float it out there to get some feedbacks, exactly like what you are providing here. And thank you for them - very valid points that a lot of boardies here would not know much about.

Very valid points indeed. Although the thread title talks about milk bottles, the discussion so far has been around all types of bottles, and the general idea was to introduce some sort of incentive for bringing the bottles / cans / cartons back, so that it can be recycled and/or reused - instead of polluting our lives and that of a next few generations!

From what you posted, I do gather the risks involved in the 'milk tap' approach. The only reason I suggested the 'tap' idea was to support the refill idea, so that someone like me can go into the supermarket and fill up my own milk bottle and take it home. While tap is a bit of a stretch, I am sure there might be way to get around it - for example if the milk was to be delivered in smaller containers like beer kegs that gets delivered to the pubs, and if that comes with a tap (and shops can sell by weight may be, which can be very easy and non-contact way of measuring the milk), and if empty ones get's cleaned and refilled back at the farm/processing area, it probably reduces the risks somewhat, may be. Just thinking out loud..!

Would the extra diesel used to haul all these heavy empty containers back to the dairies not outweigh any benefit? Currently the trucks are travelling out with several tonnes of milk and returning empty using less fuel.

If they had to haul all these empty containers and you have to haul your empty container that would use a considerable amount of fuel. Then you would need all these used containers be sterilized, which again uses energy.

Is there any real energy saving in sterilizing a glass bottle v's the production of a plastic bottle?

3DataModem · 03-10-2010 07:30AM

irish_goat wrote: »

They do it for plastics in the US. You bring them to the supermarket, which has a collector outside that gives you 15c or something for every 2lt bottle.

They did this in Ireland too in the 80s for glass fizzy drink bottles. That's where the phrase "no deposit, no return" came from as it became phased out.

The sterilization of milk containers is not trivial. Unrefrigerated milk exposed to air goes bad really really fast. The idea that people can be trusted to steam sterilise their bottles before reuse is crazy. Very few would do it, and lots of people would get sick.

I'd guess that the environmental cost of manufacture and shipping and disposal of a tetra pack is a lot lower than that of creating, cleaning and shipping glass bottles.

monument · 03-10-2010 02:18PM

Del2005 wrote: »

Would the extra diesel used to haul all these heavy empty containers back to the dairies not outweigh any benefit? Currently the trucks are travelling out with several tonnes of milk and returning empty using less fuel.

If they had to haul all these empty containers and you have to haul your empty container that would use a considerable amount of fuel. Then you would need all these used containers be sterilized, which again uses energy.

Is there any real energy saving in sterilizing a glass bottle v's the production of a plastic bottle?

There's a few things here:

The weight of the "heavy" empty containers is likely to be minimal extra compared to the weight of a truck or van. And these journeys are been made anyway. Less fuel is still being used on the return journey.

You also don't seem to be taking into account of the transport of the plastic bottles -- even if these very light empty, extra journeys are needed.

Why not bring back milk bottles?

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