Why not bring back milk bottles?

positron · 05-06-2009 01:46PM #1

Could anyone tell me why did people move away from the milk bottles to today's paper/plastic cartons?

If distribution / leaving out at the door is the problem, why don't they bring some sort of bottle exchange mechanism, that is, you still buy your milk at supermarket / corner shop etc, but first time you will have to pay 1 euro for the bottle itself. You can bring it back and get the euro back, or just return it and get a full bottle of milk and pay only for the milk.

If someone couldn't be bothered to bring the bottle back, they can keep paying the €1 charge every time they buy milk. Or if they care, they can bring a sack full of bottles back to the shop and get the money back in one go.

Bottles doesn't have to be glass bottles. They can be unbreakable plastic with a biodegradable paper seal under the usual plastic cap. The milk packaging companies can take these back to their place and wash and sterilize them for the next use.

Is this not practical? Or am I out of my mind?

greeneyedspirit · 05-06-2009 01:50PM

Great idea, I'm all for it. Not just for milk, mind you - what about water, beer, whatever bottles?
I'm from Germany, and I grew up with "Pfand" (a deposit, essentially) on all glass bottles. I think it was something like 15 Pfennig per bottle, that you paid when you got the bottle and got back upon returning the empty bottle.

I know that nowadays, it's the same system for plastic (!) bottles - and it works.

I'm always gobsmacked as to why this isn't implemented in other countries.

irish_goat · 05-06-2009 01:54PM

They do it for plastics in the US. You bring them to the supermarket, which has a collector outside that gives you 15c or something for every 2lt bottle.

positron · 05-06-2009 01:59PM

Hmm, so the system works in Germany and the US. And here government prides themselves for introducing just a plastic bag levvy?!

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

greeneyedspirit · 05-06-2009 02:00PM

irish_goat wrote: »

They do it for plastics in the US. You bring them to the supermarket, which has a collector outside that gives you 15c or something for every 2lt bottle.

wow, I didn't know that :cool: brilliant.

djpbarry · 05-06-2009 02:01PM

positron wrote: »

Could anyone tell me why did people move away from the milk bottles to today's paper/plastic cartons?

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

greeneyedspirit · 05-06-2009 02:02PM

positron wrote: »

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

I know that the glass bottles, if they're in good nick, are being re-used. Not sure what happens to the plastic bottles, though. I would guess they're recycled and made into new bottles, bins, or whateve else.
Also, it's not all glass bottles that have the deposit on them, juice bottles don't, for some strange reason. But beer does

positron · 05-06-2009 02:23PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean.

Once the used bottle goes thru a wash cycle, sterilization and filled with milk etc, I am almost certain an average buyer will not be able to tell which bottle is new off the press, and which is reused.

On top of being green, I would imagine washing and reusing the bottle would be cheaper than giving away a waterproof thick screwcap carton with every purchase of the milk. To me reusing the bottles might even reduce the cost of milk at the shops.

Also I am thinking, in this economic climate, Tesco and others are really battling it out there, and if the 'bring back' mechanism is practical, this might give them a tiny advantage over the competition - cheaper milk and more green-savvy buyers (who I would imagine would also buy more biodegradable bin liners, recycled paper kitchen towels, more local produce fresh vegetables etc too).

djpbarry · 05-06-2009 02:30PM

positron wrote: »

Once the used bottle goes thru a wash cycle, sterilization and filled with milk etc, I am almost certain an average buyer will not be able to tell which bottle is new off the press, and which is reused.

I am just as certain. But, for better or worse, consumer confidence counts for a lot these days and, unfortunately, there are a tremendously large number of ill-informed consumers out there.

positron wrote: »

Also I am thinking, in this economic climate, Tesco and others are really battling it out there, and if the 'bring back' mechanism is practical, this might give them a tiny advantage over the competition - cheaper milk and more green-savvy buyers...

It's possible. Why don't you contact some supermarkets and see what they make of it?

Macha · 05-06-2009 02:49PM

How does the additional cost (both money and CO2) of transporting glass (due to its weight) compare with plastics?

positron · 05-06-2009 02:58PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Why don't you contact some supermarkets and see what they make of it?

I am not shy to try, but how do I go about it? What are the chances of getting thru to someone who knows the business at that level. When I ring Tesco etc, to ask about something I bought there, I usually get a female voice going, 'err.. we don't do that, sorry about that. bye'. :rolleyes:

taconnol wrote: »

How does the additional cost (both money and CO2) of transporting glass (due to its weight) compare with plastics?

taconnol, bottles doesn't have to be glass. In fact, plastic is probably better as they are unbreakable and can take more abuse (on the way back to the shop).

The additional effort required would be something like this:
* Retail Outlets will have to setup some mechanism - I would imagine some sort of automated hole-in-the wall type thing that can accept empty bottles and give customer credits, may be even credit his/her store card (even more reason for the likes of Tesco, this will push customers to be more loyal).

* Retail outlets would need to handle the empty bottles. They would need to store new ones, and when as the new empties, the old bottles will take up that space.

* Milk companies (?) like Glanbia would need to pick up empty ones as they deliver new ones.

* Most expensive part of the switch over: The production lines will need to be updated to have a washing and sterilizing mechanism for used bottles. This line should probably start wit some clever mechanism that can filter out really bad bottles (stain, broken etc) from really reusable bottles.

Okay I guess I am going a bit over the top here..!

PS: Love that Carl Sagan quote.

Macha · 05-06-2009 03:54PM

Thanks

D'oh, didn't read your OP properly. As greeneyedspirit said, there's already a system for accepting empties called 'pfant' (pant in Norway). Most, if not all, pubs have a system for returning empties to their drinks suppliers.

Another concept to consider is bringing your own containers. Argh, I can't find the link but there's a food market, I think in England, where you get a discount if you bring your own containers. Not sure how it would work with milk as container would have to be sterilised but could work for most items.

positron · 05-06-2009 04:02PM

taconnol wrote: »

Another concept to consider is bringing your own containers. Argh, I can't find the link but there's a food market, I think in England, where you get a discount if you bring your own containers. Not sure how it would work with milk as container would have to be sterilised but could work for most items.

You are so right, how could I have missed this one?!

Buyer bringing own container is the easiest solution possible from where the shops are now. All they need to do is set up a tap near the deli counter - anyone can bring whatever bottle / carton they want, and fill up. The tap should show the price per litre and spit out a little price tag that you can bring to the counter to pay.

Milk suppliers can use some mechanism to fill in the tank at the shop as per shop's own expected demand. Any left over milk can be taken back the tank (easier than taking unsold / out-of-date cartons back).

Its so simple, it just hurts to think that this is not already in place! taconnol, you better patent this idea real quick!

Is there an agency or setup in Ireland who would listen to random crackpots coming off the street / boards and suggesting ideas? I really want to see why wouldn't these ideas work on a large scale..!

Judgement Day · 05-06-2009 04:28PM

I doubt it had much to do with people being concerned about hyigene more like companies being concerned with profits. They still had milk bottles in the Isle of Man (2005 anyway) so it must be sustainable if a small island with 75,000 people can do it.

Macha · 05-06-2009 04:43PM

Heh, well I think the secret is out.

We get our washing up liquid, clothes washing liquid, etc from Cultivate in Temple Bar. We bring in the same 2l Comfort bottle every time and get it filled up for a cheaper price than if we were to buy a new container each time.

Yess, found the article:

On the Loose

“PAPER OR PLASTIC?” is the typical question at grocery store checkouts. “Neither,” is the emphatic answer at Catherine Conway’s London food shop, Unpackaged. An organic grocery store that might be called “BYOC” (bring your own containers), Unpackaged opened its doors in 2007, selling just about everything a typical market carries — only without the throwaway packaging. Customers at this busy, modern shop in the city’s Islington section find walls lined with barrels, buckets and bins overflowing with flour, tea, yogurt, jam, veggies and just about everything else (as long as it’s organic, local or Fair Trade), which customers scoop into canisters and reusable bags they’ve brought with them.

Taking sustainable one step further, Conway stores dried goods like arborio rice, apricots and Brazil nuts in matte black tubs labeled with chalk, eliminating the need for wasteful bits of printed paper. The ethos seems to appeal to Londoners. In the year and a half since it opened, Unpackaged has built a loyal clientele, many of whom Conway knows by name. Because so many of her customers bring back their own containers, Conway estimates her store generates around 1.5 fewer tons of CO2 emissions every year than a conventional store. (If a shopper happens to show up without his or her own container, Conway will sweetly, though begrudgingly, supply a sturdy resealable plastic bag.)

.....

http://www.hemispheresmagazine.com/2009/05/01/a-london-grocer-unwraps-the-secret-to-eco-shopping/

Judgement Day · 05-06-2009 10:25PM

Been buying Ecover washing-up liquid from the local health food shop for some years now - still using the same re-fillable bottle that I started with - this is the only way to go. It needs to be made illegal to sale products in non-deposit bottles - the beneficial impact of this would dwarf the positive environmental effects of the plastic bag tax.

baldieman · 06-06-2009 09:18AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

Does'nt seem to bother the drinkers of the country. Using glasses washed in dirty glass washers. Some people think the water gets changes after each wash! IT DOESN'T

Cabaal · 06-06-2009 09:34AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

positron · 06-06-2009 10:33AM

Wow, so there is really a good case here, and I really like how JudgementDay put its. In its simplest terms, selling anything in 'non-refundable' bottles should be illegal. Shops and markets should also start supporting (and promoting) buyers who want to bring their own containers/bags/bottles.

Also, we all love a fresh pint from the tap, why not put a 'milk tap' in shops?

How do we push this to the next level? Who should I contact, plead, please, beg (or threaten) for this to happen?

Macha · 06-06-2009 11:14AM

positron wrote: »

How do we push this to the next level? Who should I contact, plead, please, beg (or threaten) for this to happen?

Ireland implemented the relevant EU legislation in a very Irish way. Instead of each retail outlet being responsbile for its own packaging, companies can pay money to Repak to discharge their obligations.

The result is that people can leave the packaging at the checkout of a supermarket in the UK because it's that supermarket's responsibility to dispose of it. But here, you just get charged with littering *sigh*

A guy from Repak came to lecture our class and when I asked him about the pant/pfand system, he basically said that it wasn't financially viable, otherwise someone would have started doing it already (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). He then started rabbiting on about the Glass bottling place closing down in Ringsend. blah blah. Total tool.

For all their squawking, what Repak essentially do is remove any trace of a market signal to producers to use less packaging. So I don't really know what the best step is in this area. Wait for the EU to bring in more legislation, as always?

www.repak.ie

djpbarry · 06-06-2009 03:14PM

baldieman wrote: »

Does'nt seem to bother the drinkers of the country. Using glasses washed in dirty glass washers. Some people think the water gets changes after each wash! IT DOESN'T

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

Precisely the sort of counter-arguments I often use myself.

netwhizkid · 06-06-2009 03:42PM

I would be in favour of glass milk bottle as I think the milk tastes better from them tbh.

greeneyedspirit · 08-06-2009 09:46AM

taconnol wrote: »

A guy from Repak came to lecture our class and when I asked him about the pant/pfand system, he basically said that it wasn't financially viable, otherwise someone would have started doing it already (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:).

right... not financially viable... Not sure if I believe that now. The system WORKS in other countries, why shouldn't it here? :mad:

In a way, the whole 'Pfand' system would encourage buyers to go back to their local shop (where they bought their stuff) to bring back the bottles. Chances are they'd not just bring back the bottles to collect their deposit money, but also buy more stuff. So the shops would benefit, no?

Sam Kade · 08-06-2009 10:07AM

Back in the seventies all glass bottles were returned for reuse. There was little or no plastic used. Meat, sweets, etc. were wrapped in brown paper. Bread was never wrapped.

positron · 08-06-2009 10:14AM

I agree with greeneyedspirit, its definitely beneficial for the shop to adopt this system, and I don't believe the 'not financially viable' for one second.

The only group that would lose out here are the carton / packaging manufacturers themselves, but I am sure they can find themselves better margins by producing more green packaging thru with some R&D. Both shops, distrubutors and consumers stands a good chance to PROFIT from this, and these are just the side effects or trying to make our environment better. A win-win situation, if you ask me!

I haven't read this yet, but here's the packaging related EU directive, if anyone is interested.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994L0062:EN:HTML

spacetweek · 08-06-2009 11:12AM

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

I don't think this is the reason. I always assumed glass bottles dissappeared because people used to go shopping once a week, and since milk spoils quickly, they needed someone to deliver it daily. Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

Are you sure? I thought they just recycled them.

positron wrote: »

In its simplest terms, selling anything in 'non-refundable' bottles should be illegal.

Also, we all love a fresh pint from the tap, why not put a 'milk tap' in shops?

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea. It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper. The shop in London is an anomoly that will never see mass adoption. It's only tapping into the greenie market, which is a small one.

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

For the bottles in particular, both plastic and glass, I do support the introduction of 10c refunds. Empty cars are driving to supermarkets and the empties should be hitching a ride. The USA and Germany have this, but in general most countries have nothing of the sort.

As for the milk tap, I think a much bigger problem here is that people just don't drink milk that much anymore.

djpbarry · 08-06-2009 11:26AM

spacetweek wrote: »

I always assumed glass bottles dissappeared because people used to go shopping once a week, and since milk spoils quickly, they needed someone to deliver it daily. Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

I’m not really sure what this has to do with the disappearance of milk bottles? Cartons have been delivered to people’s doors for some time now.

bonkey · 08-06-2009 11:29AM

greeneyedspirit wrote: »

Great idea, I'm all for it. Not just for milk, mind you - what about water, beer, whatever bottles?
I'm from Germany, and I grew up with "Pfand" (a deposit, essentially) on all glass bottles. I think it was something like 15 Pfennig per bottle, that you paid when you got the bottle and got back upon returning the empty bottle.

I know that nowadays, it's the same system for plastic (!) bottles - and it works.

I'm always gobsmacked as to why this isn't implemented in other countries.

Here in Switzerland, IIRC, they've agreed not to put "pfand" on PET, PE (used for milk), aluminium containers (cans) or glass....as long as recycling rates remain above a certain percentage (which is something pretty high like 80%).

The only exception seems to be some glass beer bottles...but that seems to be mostly because its cheaper for the smaller beer companies to encourage a "deposit, return & reuse" system rather than to have their bottles dumped in the regular recycling.

Swiss being Swiss...the system seems to work fine.

positron · 08-06-2009 11:30AM

spacetweek wrote: »

Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

This is true, and leaving milk or empty bottles at the door step also has more 'recent' challenges like vandalism to address. But a combination of old reusable bottles on shop shelves might just be a the right compromise on practicality and 'responsible consumption', IMHO.

spacetweek wrote: »

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea.

I agree. Shops have to cater for all sorts of people, including someone who have no intention of coming back to a particular shop for various reasons (someone was passing by the town for instance). The cartons should be available for a while, until the demand drops over a period of time.
[/QUOTE]

And another possibility is a 'standardization' of bottles so that it can be dropped back to any shop / retail outlet irrespective of where on bought it from. Like posted earlier, if there's a bottle bank everywhere that will pay back the person the deposit, that will really cleanup our towns and villages.

spacetweek wrote: »

It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper.

Not if the benefits are obvious. I would imagine the milk on tap would be a lot cheaper than the milk in cartons. This would be a huge factor for families with children who consume plenty of milk daily.

Again, if the 'pfant' type of system comes to effect, it does not force anyone to bringing their on bottles. It just means they can bring back their 'dirty' bottles and replace for clean one's full of good milk for cheap money. If they decide to stop drinking milk, they can still bring back the bottle and get the money back.

spacetweek wrote: »

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

This should happen irrespective of this 'bring back' system, IMO.

spacetweek wrote: »

As for the milk tap, I think a much bigger problem here is that people just don't drink milk that much anymore.

As mentioned above. Being able to drink a fresh glass of milk is just a perk. The main intention is to fill up your own bottles - a bit like petrol I suppose..!

Cabaal · 08-06-2009 01:32PM

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you sure? I thought they just recycled them.
.

Pretty sure, my family ran a pub for about 75 years

Back in the early days we used to bottle and label our own stout,

Anyway in relation to returns, an example is stout bottles were returned (Guinness & smithwicks) and washed and reused (you can easily tell this as they'll often have bits of old labels on them.)

Up until the late 90's bottles like budweiser were brought to bottle banks as they were not taken back but this changed just before my family sold the business.

At the very least a fair amount of bottles are washed and re-used, there is most likely a percentage that is recycled though.

Barrels are also re-used obviously

So in short hygiene is not an excuse for not reusing milk bottles,

greeneyedspirit · 08-06-2009 02:05PM

positron wrote: »

And another possibility is a 'standardization' of bottles so that it can be dropped back to any shop / retail outlet irrespective of where on bought it from. Like posted earlier, if there's a bottle bank everywhere that will pay back the person the deposit, that will really cleanup our towns and villages.

Definitely. That would make arguments like 'I won't/can't bring the bottle(s) back because I was only passing through the town xyz' superfluous, too... If help was needed on the subject of automated return of bottles, ask the Germans - they have machines in every (or most) supermarkets that swallow empty bottles or even whole crates (beer, mineral water etc), print a little ticket that you go to the till with and presto, you get your deposit back. :pac:

Why not bring back milk bottles?

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