Why not bring back milk bottles?

positron

Could anyone tell me why did people move away from the milk bottles to today's paper/plastic cartons?

If distribution / leaving out at the door is the problem, why don't they bring some sort of bottle exchange mechanism, that is, you still buy your milk at supermarket / corner shop etc, but first time you will have to pay 1 euro for the bottle itself. You can bring it back and get the euro back, or just return it and get a full bottle of milk and pay only for the milk.

If someone couldn't be bothered to bring the bottle back, they can keep paying the €1 charge every time they buy milk. Or if they care, they can bring a sack full of bottles back to the shop and get the money back in one go.

Bottles doesn't have to be glass bottles. They can be unbreakable plastic with a biodegradable paper seal under the usual plastic cap. The milk packaging companies can take these back to their place and wash and sterilize them for the next use.

Is this not practical? Or am I out of my mind?

greeneyedspirit

Great idea, I'm all for it. Not just for milk, mind you - what about water, beer, whatever bottles?
I'm from Germany, and I grew up with "Pfand" (a deposit, essentially) on all glass bottles. I think it was something like 15 Pfennig per bottle, that you paid when you got the bottle and got back upon returning the empty bottle.

I know that nowadays, it's the same system for plastic (!) bottles - and it works.

I'm always gobsmacked as to why this isn't implemented in other countries.

irish_goat

They do it for plastics in the US. You bring them to the supermarket, which has a collector outside that gives you 15c or something for every 2lt bottle.

positron

Hmm, so the system works in Germany and the US. And here government prides themselves for introducing just a plastic bag levvy?!

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

greeneyedspirit

irish_goat wrote: »

They do it for plastics in the US. You bring them to the supermarket, which has a collector outside that gives you 15c or something for every 2lt bottle.

wow, I didn't know that :cool: brilliant.

djpbarry

positron wrote: »

Could anyone tell me why did people move away from the milk bottles to today's paper/plastic cartons?

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

greeneyedspirit

positron wrote: »

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

I know that the glass bottles, if they're in good nick, are being re-used. Not sure what happens to the plastic bottles, though. I would guess they're recycled and made into new bottles, bins, or whateve else.
Also, it's not all glass bottles that have the deposit on them, juice bottles don't, for some strange reason. But beer does

positron

djpbarry wrote: »

Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean.

Once the used bottle goes thru a wash cycle, sterilization and filled with milk etc, I am almost certain an average buyer will not be able to tell which bottle is new off the press, and which is reused.

On top of being green, I would imagine washing and reusing the bottle would be cheaper than giving away a waterproof thick screwcap carton with every purchase of the milk. To me reusing the bottles might even reduce the cost of milk at the shops.

Also I am thinking, in this economic climate, Tesco and others are really battling it out there, and if the 'bring back' mechanism is practical, this might give them a tiny advantage over the competition - cheaper milk and more green-savvy buyers (who I would imagine would also buy more biodegradable bin liners, recycled paper kitchen towels, more local produce fresh vegetables etc too).

djpbarry

positron wrote: »

Once the used bottle goes thru a wash cycle, sterilization and filled with milk etc, I am almost certain an average buyer will not be able to tell which bottle is new off the press, and which is reused.

I am just as certain. But, for better or worse, consumer confidence counts for a lot these days and, unfortunately, there are a tremendously large number of ill-informed consumers out there.

positron wrote: »

Also I am thinking, in this economic climate, Tesco and others are really battling it out there, and if the 'bring back' mechanism is practical, this might give them a tiny advantage over the competition - cheaper milk and more green-savvy buyers...

It's possible. Why don't you contact some supermarkets and see what they make of it?

Macha

How does the additional cost (both money and CO2) of transporting glass (due to its weight) compare with plastics?

positron

djpbarry wrote: »

Why don't you contact some supermarkets and see what they make of it?

I am not shy to try, but how do I go about it? What are the chances of getting thru to someone who knows the business at that level. When I ring Tesco etc, to ask about something I bought there, I usually get a female voice going, 'err.. we don't do that, sorry about that. bye'. :rolleyes:

taconnol wrote: »

How does the additional cost (both money and CO2) of transporting glass (due to its weight) compare with plastics?

taconnol, bottles doesn't have to be glass. In fact, plastic is probably better as they are unbreakable and can take more abuse (on the way back to the shop).

The additional effort required would be something like this:
* Retail Outlets will have to setup some mechanism - I would imagine some sort of automated hole-in-the wall type thing that can accept empty bottles and give customer credits, may be even credit his/her store card (even more reason for the likes of Tesco, this will push customers to be more loyal).

* Retail outlets would need to handle the empty bottles. They would need to store new ones, and when as the new empties, the old bottles will take up that space.

* Milk companies (?) like Glanbia would need to pick up empty ones as they deliver new ones.

* Most expensive part of the switch over: The production lines will need to be updated to have a washing and sterilizing mechanism for used bottles. This line should probably start wit some clever mechanism that can filter out really bad bottles (stain, broken etc) from really reusable bottles.

Okay I guess I am going a bit over the top here..!

PS: Love that Carl Sagan quote.

Macha

Thanks

D'oh, didn't read your OP properly. As greeneyedspirit said, there's already a system for accepting empties called 'pfant' (pant in Norway). Most, if not all, pubs have a system for returning empties to their drinks suppliers.

Another concept to consider is bringing your own containers. Argh, I can't find the link but there's a food market, I think in England, where you get a discount if you bring your own containers. Not sure how it would work with milk as container would have to be sterilised but could work for most items.

positron

taconnol wrote: »

Another concept to consider is bringing your own containers. Argh, I can't find the link but there's a food market, I think in England, where you get a discount if you bring your own containers. Not sure how it would work with milk as container would have to be sterilised but could work for most items.

You are so right, how could I have missed this one?!

Buyer bringing own container is the easiest solution possible from where the shops are now. All they need to do is set up a tap near the deli counter - anyone can bring whatever bottle / carton they want, and fill up. The tap should show the price per litre and spit out a little price tag that you can bring to the counter to pay.

Milk suppliers can use some mechanism to fill in the tank at the shop as per shop's own expected demand. Any left over milk can be taken back the tank (easier than taking unsold / out-of-date cartons back).

Its so simple, it just hurts to think that this is not already in place! taconnol, you better patent this idea real quick!

Is there an agency or setup in Ireland who would listen to random crackpots coming off the street / boards and suggesting ideas? I really want to see why wouldn't these ideas work on a large scale..!

Judgement Day

I doubt it had much to do with people being concerned about hyigene more like companies being concerned with profits. They still had milk bottles in the Isle of Man (2005 anyway) so it must be sustainable if a small island with 75,000 people can do it.

Macha

Heh, well I think the secret is out.

We get our washing up liquid, clothes washing liquid, etc from Cultivate in Temple Bar. We bring in the same 2l Comfort bottle every time and get it filled up for a cheaper price than if we were to buy a new container each time.

Yess, found the article:

On the Loose

“PAPER OR PLASTIC?” is the typical question at grocery store checkouts. “Neither,” is the emphatic answer at Catherine Conway’s London food shop, Unpackaged. An organic grocery store that might be called “BYOC” (bring your own containers), Unpackaged opened its doors in 2007, selling just about everything a typical market carries — only without the throwaway packaging. Customers at this busy, modern shop in the city’s Islington section find walls lined with barrels, buckets and bins overflowing with flour, tea, yogurt, jam, veggies and just about everything else (as long as it’s organic, local or Fair Trade), which customers scoop into canisters and reusable bags they’ve brought with them.

Taking sustainable one step further, Conway stores dried goods like arborio rice, apricots and Brazil nuts in matte black tubs labeled with chalk, eliminating the need for wasteful bits of printed paper. The ethos seems to appeal to Londoners. In the year and a half since it opened, Unpackaged has built a loyal clientele, many of whom Conway knows by name. Because so many of her customers bring back their own containers, Conway estimates her store generates around 1.5 fewer tons of CO2 emissions every year than a conventional store. (If a shopper happens to show up without his or her own container, Conway will sweetly, though begrudgingly, supply a sturdy resealable plastic bag.)

.....

http://www.hemispheresmagazine.com/2009/05/01/a-london-grocer-unwraps-the-secret-to-eco-shopping/

Judgement Day

Been buying Ecover washing-up liquid from the local health food shop for some years now - still using the same re-fillable bottle that I started with - this is the only way to go. It needs to be made illegal to sale products in non-deposit bottles - the beneficial impact of this would dwarf the positive environmental effects of the plastic bag tax.

baldieman

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

Does'nt seem to bother the drinkers of the country. Using glasses washed in dirty glass washers. Some people think the water gets changes after each wash! IT DOESN'T

Cabaal

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

positron

Wow, so there is really a good case here, and I really like how JudgementDay put its. In its simplest terms, selling anything in 'non-refundable' bottles should be illegal. Shops and markets should also start supporting (and promoting) buyers who want to bring their own containers/bags/bottles.

Also, we all love a fresh pint from the tap, why not put a 'milk tap' in shops?

How do we push this to the next level? Who should I contact, plead, please, beg (or threaten) for this to happen?

Macha

positron wrote: »

How do we push this to the next level? Who should I contact, plead, please, beg (or threaten) for this to happen?

Ireland implemented the relevant EU legislation in a very Irish way. Instead of each retail outlet being responsbile for its own packaging, companies can pay money to Repak to discharge their obligations.

The result is that people can leave the packaging at the checkout of a supermarket in the UK because it's that supermarket's responsibility to dispose of it. But here, you just get charged with littering *sigh*

A guy from Repak came to lecture our class and when I asked him about the pant/pfand system, he basically said that it wasn't financially viable, otherwise someone would have started doing it already (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:). He then started rabbiting on about the Glass bottling place closing down in Ringsend. blah blah. Total tool.

For all their squawking, what Repak essentially do is remove any trace of a market signal to producers to use less packaging. So I don't really know what the best step is in this area. Wait for the EU to bring in more legislation, as always?
www.repak.ie

djpbarry

baldieman wrote: »

Does'nt seem to bother the drinkers of the country. Using glasses washed in dirty glass washers. Some people think the water gets changes after each wash! IT DOESN'T

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

Precisely the sort of counter-arguments I often use myself.

netwhizkid

I would be in favour of glass milk bottle as I think the milk tastes better from them tbh.

greeneyedspirit

taconnol wrote: »

A guy from Repak came to lecture our class and when I asked him about the pant/pfand system, he basically said that it wasn't financially viable, otherwise someone would have started doing it already (:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:).

right... not financially viable... Not sure if I believe that now. The system WORKS in other countries, why shouldn't it here? :mad:

In a way, the whole 'Pfand' system would encourage buyers to go back to their local shop (where they bought their stuff) to bring back the bottles. Chances are they'd not just bring back the bottles to collect their deposit money, but also buy more stuff. So the shops would benefit, no?

Sam Kade

Back in the seventies all glass bottles were returned for reuse. There was little or no plastic used. Meat, sweets, etc. were wrapped in brown paper. Bread was never wrapped.

positron

I agree with greeneyedspirit, its definitely beneficial for the shop to adopt this system, and I don't believe the 'not financially viable' for one second.

The only group that would lose out here are the carton / packaging manufacturers themselves, but I am sure they can find themselves better margins by producing more green packaging thru with some R&D. Both shops, distrubutors and consumers stands a good chance to PROFIT from this, and these are just the side effects or trying to make our environment better. A win-win situation, if you ask me!

I haven't read this yet, but here's the packaging related EU directive, if anyone is interested.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31994L0062:EN:HTML

spacetweek

djpbarry wrote: »

Because people are hygiene freaks (or at least they think they are). Reusing other people's milk bottles (or bottles in general) was seen as unclean. This is obviously nonsense, but it's one of the reasons why we are where we are now, i.e. crushing and melting bottles in order to make the same bottles.

I don't think this is the reason. I always assumed glass bottles dissappeared because people used to go shopping once a week, and since milk spoils quickly, they needed someone to deliver it daily. Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

Cabaal wrote: »

Yet they reuse beer bottles because pubs return 95% of bottles to be cleaned and reused

Are you sure? I thought they just recycled them.

positron wrote: »

In its simplest terms, selling anything in 'non-refundable' bottles should be illegal.

Also, we all love a fresh pint from the tap, why not put a 'milk tap' in shops?

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea. It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper. The shop in London is an anomoly that will never see mass adoption. It's only tapping into the greenie market, which is a small one.

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

For the bottles in particular, both plastic and glass, I do support the introduction of 10c refunds. Empty cars are driving to supermarkets and the empties should be hitching a ride. The USA and Germany have this, but in general most countries have nothing of the sort.

As for the milk tap, I think a much bigger problem here is that people just don't drink milk that much anymore.

djpbarry

spacetweek wrote: »

I always assumed glass bottles dissappeared because people used to go shopping once a week, and since milk spoils quickly, they needed someone to deliver it daily. Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

I’m not really sure what this has to do with the disappearance of milk bottles? Cartons have been delivered to people’s doors for some time now.

bonkey

greeneyedspirit wrote: »

Great idea, I'm all for it. Not just for milk, mind you - what about water, beer, whatever bottles?
I'm from Germany, and I grew up with "Pfand" (a deposit, essentially) on all glass bottles. I think it was something like 15 Pfennig per bottle, that you paid when you got the bottle and got back upon returning the empty bottle.

I know that nowadays, it's the same system for plastic (!) bottles - and it works.

I'm always gobsmacked as to why this isn't implemented in other countries.

Here in Switzerland, IIRC, they've agreed not to put "pfand" on PET, PE (used for milk), aluminium containers (cans) or glass....as long as recycling rates remain above a certain percentage (which is something pretty high like 80%).

The only exception seems to be some glass beer bottles...but that seems to be mostly because its cheaper for the smaller beer companies to encourage a "deposit, return & reuse" system rather than to have their bottles dumped in the regular recycling.

Swiss being Swiss...the system seems to work fine.

positron

spacetweek wrote: »

Nowadays, people shop more frequently, so they get the milk they need each time. Hence door-to-door delivery isn't needed.

This is true, and leaving milk or empty bottles at the door step also has more 'recent' challenges like vandalism to address. But a combination of old reusable bottles on shop shelves might just be a the right compromise on practicality and 'responsible consumption', IMHO.

spacetweek wrote: »

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea.

I agree. Shops have to cater for all sorts of people, including someone who have no intention of coming back to a particular shop for various reasons (someone was passing by the town for instance). The cartons should be available for a while, until the demand drops over a period of time.
[/QUOTE]

And another possibility is a 'standardization' of bottles so that it can be dropped back to any shop / retail outlet irrespective of where on bought it from. Like posted earlier, if there's a bottle bank everywhere that will pay back the person the deposit, that will really cleanup our towns and villages.

spacetweek wrote: »

It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper.

Not if the benefits are obvious. I would imagine the milk on tap would be a lot cheaper than the milk in cartons. This would be a huge factor for families with children who consume plenty of milk daily.

Again, if the 'pfant' type of system comes to effect, it does not force anyone to bringing their on bottles. It just means they can bring back their 'dirty' bottles and replace for clean one's full of good milk for cheap money. If they decide to stop drinking milk, they can still bring back the bottle and get the money back.

spacetweek wrote: »

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

This should happen irrespective of this 'bring back' system, IMO.

spacetweek wrote: »

As for the milk tap, I think a much bigger problem here is that people just don't drink milk that much anymore.

As mentioned above. Being able to drink a fresh glass of milk is just a perk. The main intention is to fill up your own bottles - a bit like petrol I suppose..!

Cabaal

spacetweek wrote: »

Are you sure? I thought they just recycled them.
.

Pretty sure, my family ran a pub for about 75 years

Back in the early days we used to bottle and label our own stout,

Anyway in relation to returns, an example is stout bottles were returned (Guinness & smithwicks) and washed and reused (you can easily tell this as they'll often have bits of old labels on them.)

Up until the late 90's bottles like budweiser were brought to bottle banks as they were not taken back but this changed just before my family sold the business.

At the very least a fair amount of bottles are washed and re-used, there is most likely a percentage that is recycled though.

Barrels are also re-used obviously

So in short hygiene is not an excuse for not reusing milk bottles,

greeneyedspirit

positron wrote: »

And another possibility is a 'standardization' of bottles so that it can be dropped back to any shop / retail outlet irrespective of where on bought it from. Like posted earlier, if there's a bottle bank everywhere that will pay back the person the deposit, that will really cleanup our towns and villages.

Definitely. That would make arguments like 'I won't/can't bring the bottle(s) back because I was only passing through the town xyz' superfluous, too... If help was needed on the subject of automated return of bottles, ask the Germans - they have machines in every (or most) supermarkets that swallow empty bottles or even whole crates (beer, mineral water etc), print a little ticket that you go to the till with and presto, you get your deposit back. :pac:

Macha

spacetweek wrote: »

I think eliminating packaging completely is a frankly ridiculous idea. It massively increases hassle for the consumer, and greenies may like showing up with a slew of dirty empty bottles but it isn't for the casual shopper. The shop in London is an anomoly that will never see mass adoption. It's only tapping into the greenie market, which is a small one.

Well you also have to consider that excess packaging is also quite a hassle for the consumer in terms of having to bring it all home and dispose of it. Plus the double cost of paying for the packaging (within the cost of the product) and then paying for its disposal (through bin charges).

Sure, it won't suit everyone all of the time but if you'd be surprised what creatures of habit we are, expecially when it comes to things like the weekly food shop. Look how quickly we adjusted to the tax on plastic bags.

I also always think it's important to remember that our current lifestyles are far from permanent and have really only existed for a relatively short period of time. I'm not saying we go back to live in caves but even 40/50 years ago people managed to survive just fine without the immense amount of packaging we produce today.

Another issue is that packaging can increase the shelf-life of products, particularly during transportation. But for me, this is just another reason to try to buy local.

spacetweek wrote: »

A better solution is to improve the end of the cycle - we need much more biodegradable packaging and a higher recycling rate. (We also need to tackle littering in this country, but that's OT).

Totally agree. But there is the hierarchy of waste: reduce, reuse, recycle.

monument

positron wrote: »

I wonder if the bottles collected either in Germany or US is being reused (wash, sterilize, fill) or recycled (as in crush, melt, new bottles/shoes etc)?

I've been meaning to look into this further since visiting Germany last year. Tried a quick Google afterwards, but found nothing.

But the bottles they use (in Germany at least, can't remember about the US) are far harder plastic which could possibly be washed at higher temperatures and would last longer.

Might also try to ask Repak about some of this.

positron

Just had a look at the repack.ie, and they have posted a 'report' on the same topic in September 2008.

Its a PDF: http://www.repak.ie/files/Deposits_for_Ireland_September_2008_final.pdf

and here's the key findings (another PDF): http://www.repak.ie/files/perchards_-_key_messages_FINAL_4_Nov.pdf

In the report they are discussing existing German system, US system etc, and in short, they are against it.

Just some interesting bits:

The government’s brief does not indicate specific objectives for a deposit, but the Environment Minister, John Gormley TD, is understood to see deposits as a way to tackle the litter problem and to boost recycling rates.

Potential impact on litter - The National Litter Survey for 2006 indicates that drinks containers (excluding cartons) represent 5.36% of total litter, with all packaging representing 13% of litter. This indicates that a deposit could reduce the incidence of drinks containers in packaging, but it would have little impact on total litter. Other litter surveys undertaken around the world have reached the same conclusion. Through Repak, Irish industry is already helping to combat litter, and it is unlikely that a deposit would result in significant cost savings for Irish local authorities on litter abatement activities.

I have only read about half of the document, and I am not entirely convinced if they have taken all aspects into consideration. Some of the points mentioned are really minor, but since its mentioned with a scale in the large scheme of things, they stand out as major issues against the plan..

For instance, here:

Milk is exempt from deposit requirements in Europe and most jurisdictions in the US and Canada. Fruit and vegetable juices and nectars are exempt from most European deposit requirements and in most US states, although many Canadian provinces include them.
These drinks categories have been excluded from deposit requirements for a variety of reasons. These include:
•
Milk and juice are mostly consumed at home, so they are not considered to contribute to the litter problem;

What about the 'reuse'? Less plastic out in the landfills etc?

I don't know, may be they have sussed it correctly, but may be someone is afraid of change...

Macha

Juts thought I'd add the Wikipedia page in as another source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Container_deposit_legislation

Funsterdelux

taconnol wrote: »

I also always think it's important to remember that our current lifestyles are far from permanent and have really only existed for a relatively short period of time. I'm not saying we go back to live in caves but even 40/50 years ago people managed to survive just fine without the immense amount of packaging we produce today.

Another issue is that packaging can increase the shelf-life of products, particularly during transportation. But for me, this is just another reason to try to buy local.

I grew up in the country on a small part time farm (cattle/sheep) and come from a family of 7. I remember going out with my mother and milking the cow, we had one cow for our own milk and we used to churn our own butter. We had just the one car and my mother would have gone to the shops once a week on a Saturday and got everything we needed for the week. We didn’t have much money and just got by.

That was twenty five years ago. Now I don’t live at home, but since we all grew up and started working ourselves (siblings) and there’s only one of my brothers living at home now, they can't go 2 days without having to go to the shop for something. It’s crazy, I'm no better, we’ve turned into a horrid consumer society. So I have to agree with taconnol, the way we're living has only really come down in the last shower.

First we got rid of the railways, then the milk bottles. With all the packaging, still bread only lasts a couple of days, bread I make myself lasts longer without any foreign objects. Buying local is the way forward I think, with the price of oil going up and it will go up again transporting products which can be sourced locally from faraway places is and was and forever will be ridiculous.

It just pure laziness on all our parts, I think the curriculum in both primary and secondary schools should include a obligatory subject called life, which would take everything into account including where food comes from and where the waste goes!

End of rant

positron

I can totally relate to Funsterdelux's post.

I grew up in village surroundings myself, and we always had a cow or two for our own milk. When our cows stops producing milk, we always bought milk from the neighbors - either they dropped it over to us daily, or someone goes and picks it up. We also sold milk when we had excess!

That's not all. At grocers, merchandise usually was wrapped in old newspaper sheets, and wet and/or smelly items like fresh fish, meat etc was always wrapped in leaves of the teak wood! (That should give you and idea where I grew up..!) and when done with them, cows would eat these leaves! Occasionally we used to eat out of banana leaves (which again cows would gobble down, no need to wash anything), and we also make spoons / scoops out of jackfruit leaves (its dead simple to make), to scoop out yummy rice dishes out of the plate / bowl. We also used to use baskets made of palm and/or coconut leaves to keep our own harvest of rice, mangoes and all sorts such yummy stuff.

In fact even today, my parents live the above lifestyle. They also have three acres of land where they produce almost everything they need - black pepper, cashew nuts, ginger, turmeric, green chillies, rice, coconut, all sorts of vegetables and fruits like mangoes, pineapples, papayas etc.

But even there the milk cartons and polythene wrapping has replaced traditional methods. Recently government there banned non-biodegradable polythene bags - one small steps in the right direction.

When I moved to Ireland (a long time ago), throwing away perfectly fine 2l milk cans was such a shock to my system - it really took me months to get used the idea someone "might recycle it" rather than just reusing it! Same with the packaging of a bag of cornflakes for instance - what a waste of paper! Something that will be consumed in a matter of weeks does not require a hard paper shell that can last years!

I cringe every time I hear the like of George Bush talk about the increasing consumption from emerging economies like India and China. Oh the hypocrisy!

Apologies for ranting outside the topic, I just had to say it. Coming back to the the repack.ie report - does anyone else thing they have totally ignored the 'reuse' aspect of the idea?

bokspring71

We all wring our hands at waste and mutter about being more green, but its a fact that we are the least "green" generation that has ever existed on the planet.

Compare your own life to that of your grandparents and see how much more green they were. Not only that but many people of your grandparents generation couldn't abide waste and even recycled their christmas wrapping paper. They would never have bought strawberries in blown disposable plastic boxes which have one time use before being disposed of, would never have bought milk in disopsable packaging and used a fraction of the fossil fuels , per person, to that which we use today.

Now, here's a question. I electric cars are so good, how do we heat them in winter and air condition them in summer?

Del2005

bokspring71 wrote: »

Now, here's a question. I electric cars are so good, how do we heat them in winter and air condition them in summer?

For summer. All cars use electricity to drive the air con and fans, it just comes from the battery/alternator which gets power from the engine.

For winter. Same as the some of the newer diesels, with electric heaters.

RedPlanet

positron: bottles doesn't have to be glass. In fact, plastic is probably better as they are unbreakable and can take more abuse (on the way back to the shop).

I'm pretty sure this would be prohibited as plastic bottles are generally not safe for re-use.
They leach carcinogens and other toxic chemicals.
http://environment.about.com/od/healthenvironment/a/plastic_bottles.htm

Run_to_da_hills

One disadvantage of returning to milk bottles is that birds tend to pick through the tin foil caps and swipe the cream. :mad:

positron

RedPlanet, thanks for that perspective. However, I believe the bottles are already in wide use in other countries? May be there is better technology out there to avoid these issues?

In fact, if we can get over the safety and transport aspect of heavier glass bottles, they are still probably the best choice - as glass easier to reuse, and recycle than plastic.

Run_to_da_hills, not a problem as we are discussing bringing the bottles back to the shop. Only the reusable bottles need to come back, not the distribution system (although, that's a possibility on safer communities, giving youngsters a way to earn some pocket money and fight obesity at the same time).

bonkey

RedPlanet wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this would be prohibited as plastic bottles are generally not safe for re-use.
They leach carcinogens and other toxic chemicals.
http://environment.about.com/od/healthenvironment/a/plastic_bottles.htm

As the article you link to notes, there are safe(r) plastics, such as PE - which is what is used for milk here in Switzerland.

dogbert27

As I walk my dog every morning I was thinking of the deposit return system of other countries as I try to navigate him around shardes of broken glass bottles scattered around the towns footpaths.

It's not just Germany and the US. This system is done in other European countries too and why it is needed here more than anything is for the reason stated above, removal of litter/ unintelligent vandalism. I was in Finland recently where at May day festival there were people walking around the park picking up empty bottles in large plastic bags to go and get money for them. If people can get money for their returns then they will bring them back.

I think the problem in this country is as always the consumer will get ripped off. If a supermarket was to offer this service then it is almost certain that you won't get your money back. You'll get "club points" for your returns. If you don't have a club card then "sorry, we can't take your returns!"

The system has to be user friendly but if it's set up here it's almost a guarantee it won't be.

As for bringing your own container to a supermarket to fill up with milk. Good in theory but what if somebody brings in a spoilt container (not necessaily a dirty container but it might contain harmful bacteria) and get's sick. No doubt the consumer will blame the supermarket's milk not their container and will sue the supermarket. To me it would be too much hassle for the supermarket.

CJhaughey

It is only here in the south that the glass milk bottle has gone, in the north they still have glass milk bottles.
Why don't we just ape their system?

djpbarry

dogbert27 wrote: »

This system is done in other European countries too and why it is needed here more than anything is for the reason stated above, removal of litter/ unintelligent vandalism.

The system doesn’t seem to deter people from smashing bottles on the pavements of Berlin.

dogbert27 wrote: »

I think the problem in this country is as always the consumer will get ripped off. If a supermarket was to offer this service then it is almost certain that you won't get your money back. You'll get "club points" for your returns. If you don't have a club card then "sorry, we can't take your returns!"

Some people said the same thing about the Producer Recycling Fund, but that has worked out pretty well (as far as I know).

dogbert27 wrote: »

As for bringing your own container to a supermarket to fill up with milk. Good in theory but what if somebody brings in a spoilt container (not necessaily a dirty container but it might contain harmful bacteria) and get's sick.

Shouldn’t be a problem if the containers are being properly sterilised.

dogbert27

The system doesn’t seem to deter people from smashing bottles on the pavements of Berlin.

Yeah I know, just venting my frustration of the particular issue. No matter what city you go to you'll find litter, smashed bottles, etc.

Some people said the same thing about the Producer Recycling Fund, but that has worked out pretty well (as far as I know).

I'm not sure I get what you're saying here. The Producer Recycling Fund is a charge that's added to a product that you are buying. This return system is supposed to give back money not be an extra charge.

Shouldn’t be a problem if the containers are being properly sterilised.

The temperature for sterilisation is 121.5 deg. C. What I was trying to infer is the the general public will assume that a container cleaned with hot tap water is a clean container to take the shop.

Judgement Day

In short - can't, shan't and won't - the official Irish response to most things. So much for can do policies. :mad:

djpbarry

dogbert27 wrote: »

The Producer Recycling Fund is a charge that's added to a product that you are buying.

It could also be thought of as an up-front charge to fund the disposal of the product.

dogbert27 wrote: »

What I was trying to infer is the the general public will assume that a container cleaned with hot tap water is a clean container to take the shop.

Oh sorry - I misunderstood. Well, that's a food safety issue really - the consumers would have to take responsibility for their own well-being. And to fair, washing something out well with hot (55 degrees or so), soapy water will get rid of virtually all contaminants. It won't be sterile, but it shouldn't contain a sufficient number of microbes to cause infection.

positron

djpbarry wrote: »

It could also be thought of as an up-front charge to fund the disposal of the product.
Oh sorry - I misunderstood. Well, that's a food safety issue really - the consumers would have to take responsibility for their own well-being. And to fair, washing something out well with hot (55 degrees or so), soapy water will get rid of virtually all contaminants. It won't be sterile, but it shouldn't contain a sufficient number of microbes to cause infection.

I agree. If consumers are bringing own containers, it becomes their own responsibility to make sure that its clean. May be the supermarkets could provide a steam tap next to the milk tap for those who want to use it, but at the end of the day, responsibility remains with the consumer in that scenario - its a lot like the petrol stations really..!

positron

Apologies for digging up an old thread - but just wanted to add a link to an appeal from Bill Bryson / CPRE - they are campaigning for introduction of a similar system in UK. It would be interesting to see how this goes there, and how that would influence the Irish Government's thought process.

http://e-activist.com/ea-campaign/clientcampaign.do?ea.client.id=21&ea.campaign.id=7604&ea.tracking.id=facebook-bill-bryson

CPRE - Campaign to Protect Rural England. It's headed by Bill Bryson.