Dublin Bus route 145 :(

niamhas · 27-09-2010 09:53PM

Just a word of warning to anyone who gets the 145 along the north quays - the bus stop marked Smithfield on Arran Quay - which has over it - All Buses Stop Here (except Airlink) and has a 145 bus timetable on it - the 145 bus is not stopping here.

I learned this the hard way as one bus drove past the stop, despite me having my hand out, and the next one which arrived 20 mins later went to drive past but was stopped at the lights. I approached the bus and the driver pointed for me to go to the far side of the lights where he pulled in. He told me that the unions are not allowing their drivers to stop at this stop as the buses have to move out of the bus lane to the stop and pull back out into the bus lane. There are no notices or anything at this stop indicating that buses are not stopping there.

Stevek101 · 27-09-2010 10:53PM

niamhas wrote: »

Just a word of warning to anyone who gets the 145 along the north quays - the bus stop marked Smithfield on Arran Quay - which has over it - All Buses Stop Here (except Airlink) and has a 145 bus timetable on it - the 145 bus is not stopping here.

Same happened to me here Friday.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 01:20AM

Just a word of warning to anyone who gets the 145 along the north quays - the bus stop marked Smithfield on Arran Quay - which has over it - All Buses Stop Here (except Airlink) and has a 145 bus timetable on it - the 145 bus is not stopping here.

I was caught out by this stop on my first outing on the route last Sunday.

It really is in the most incredibly dangerous location,not only for the reason outlined by that other driver,but it is virtually up on the junction with Church Street itself,forcing a conflict with traffic attempting to turn left onto Church St.

The Stop itself is also a City Tour stop in full City Tour livery with the "All Buses Stop Here" as a rather small element of the Stop itself.

I am unaware of a Union stance on this issue but if there is I would suggest it would be good practice for the Unions to advise intending users of the reasons for the action.

In an environment where the company have a very clear policy on "safety" a Bus Stop location such as this sticks out like a sore-thumb.

foggy_lad · 28-09-2010 01:34AM

If it is the bus stop I am thinking of it is very dangerous as it is totally off the main route and interferes with traffic turning left then busses get stuck pulling back out onto the Quays. How this has been allowed for so many years is Dublin bus and cIe all over!

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 01:40AM

How this has been allowed for so many years is Dublin bus and cIe all over!

With you all the way here Foggy_Lad.

However,since the Welington Quay disaster and follow up investigation,we are given to understand that ALL Bus Stops,without exception, in the City must now be approved by An Garda Siochana-and that approval only forthcoming after an inspection or risk analysis of the location.

I can only assume the Garda who inspected this one was wearing Ray-Bans

I would be very surprised if any Busdriver was involved in the selection of this location....."very dangerous" is putting it mildly !

foggy_lad · 28-09-2010 01:59AM

Why has it not been removed then or left as a tourist bus stop only? Surely someone in Dublin bus can see the dangers involved in a stop like this?

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 02:04AM

Surely someone in Dublin bus can see the dangers involved in a stop like this?

Well,going on the two original complainants on this thread,there`s at least two other Drivers and meself who regard it as dangerous...but perhaps the Gardai have a greater capacity for accepting a bit of oul Danger ?.....sure`n nobody`s been killed there yet etc etc....This is Ireland after all :cool:

KD345 · 28-09-2010 04:44AM

Is this stop just an issue for Donnybrook drivers or are other routes (25/37/39/66/67/79/70) still continuing to stop here?

This is a very busy stop at a major junction. If it is not in use it should be clearly marked or moved further back before the junction. Having passengers wait at an inactive bus stop because someone can't be bothered to place a sign there is inexcusable.

Cookie_Monster · 28-09-2010 08:43AM

KD345 wrote: »

Is this stop just an issue for Donnybrook drivers or are other routes (25/37/39/66/67/79/70) still continuing to stop here?

This is a very busy stop at a major junction. If it is not in use it should be clearly marked or moved further back before the junction. Having passengers wait at an inactive bus stop because someone can't be bothered to place a sign there is inexcusable.

and having drivers not stop at it because they don't like it is inexcusable also

KC61 · 28-09-2010 09:06AM

I don't disagree that this stop should not be where it is Alek, but as KD345 points out drivers on the 25, 25a, 25x, 26, 37, 39, 39a, 39b, 39c, 66, 66a, 66b, 66x, 67, 67a, 67x, 68, 69, 69x, 70, 70x, 78, 79, 79a, 90 and 91 (and until two weeks ago the 92) have been stopping there for years and this is the first time that I have heard of buses not stopping there.

There are ways of changing things and this (if it is happening) is not one that is acceptable.

There are surely internal procedures to get this sort of thing changed without causing unnecessary problems for customers.

SickCert · 28-09-2010 09:51AM

I also spotted this stop at the last minute too, thankfully for the passengers it was empty as i wasn't going to slam on. Theres no information for anyone is there? Driver or passenger.
After the first four days of 'Charlie foxtrot' on W'land st then no! no! its Aston quay.
I still dont know where the stops are on the Quays.
Stop when requested?

KC61 · 28-09-2010 10:09AM

SickCert wrote: »

I also spotted this stop at the last minute too, thankfully for the passengers it was empty as i wasn't going to slam on. Theres no information for anyone is there? Driver or passenger.
After the first four days of 'Charlie foxtrot' on W'land st then no! no! its Aston quay.
I still dont know where the stops are on the Quays.
Stop when requested?

Where the 46c/46e always stopped when operating to/from Heuston was the following and this should still be the case with the 145:

Towards Heuston:
Aston Quay (91 stop)
Wellington Quay (25a stop)
Wood Quay (before Dublin city council)
Essex Quay (stop after Winetavern Street)
Ushers Quay (stop after Church Street)
Victoria Quay (stop after Watling Street - at start of Guinness premises)
Heuston Station

From Heuston
Heuston Station
Wolfe Tone Quay (before Watling Street bridge just after National Museum Collins Barracks)
Arran Quay (just before Church Street)
Inns Quay (outside Four Courts)
Upper Ormond Quay (just before Capel Street)
Bachelors Walk (Stop EP - the first stop after the Ha'penny bridge)
D'Olier Street

Stopping on Westmoreland Street rather than Aston Quay was madness (given that Aston Quay has always been the stop for Heuston services) and should never have happened.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 11:18AM

There are surely internal procedures to get this sort of thing changed without causing unnecessary problems for customers.

Inded KC61 there reputedly are,and if the past 10 days has proven anything,it`s that they are not particularly effective ?

The impressive list of routes stopping here ( 25, 25a, 25x, 26, 37, 39, 39a, 39b, 39c, 66, 66a, 66b, 66x, 67, 67a, 67x, 68, 69, 69x, 70, 70x, 78, 79, 79a, 90 and 91) might,to the uninitiated,give the impression that the location is a virtual Bus Station in itself.

The reality is otherwise.

The arguement put forward by KC61 mirrors what I believe to be the "Official" approach..."Sure it has to be safe,nobody`s been killed....yet"

As I say,the location caught me by surprise,having been aware of it only as a (still contentious) City Tour stop of long standing.
AFAIR,this location was chosen due to it`s proximity to the Jameson Distillery,St Michans Crypt`s and the late lamented Irish Music Museum in Chief O`Neills hotel.

Again,from memory,the Stop was originally located somewhat further rearwards along Arran Quay adjacent Lincoln Lane but there may have been "issues" concerning unpleasantness towards visitors at that location.

Thankfully it is not a busy location and,as with many of the past week`s issues should never have been allowed to develop at all.

A full review and physical inspection of the new 145 routing would have,to a Driver,flashed bright Red at this spot.

The positive aspect to this is that the Compnay can now recognize that it`s heavily Safety focused managerial policy strategy is now being taken on board by staff.

If it were in my power I would run up a laminated notice to advise intending passengers to be aware of the safety issues and as a consequence note that the 145 would NOT be stopping there...however it`s not within my power so c`est la vie ?

KC`s Stop List is indeed helpful and accurate except for the 25a Wellington Quay outbound,this was not in the original advice.

Towards Heuston:
Aston Quay (91 stop)
Wellington Quay (25a stop) (Not Served)
Wood Quay (before Dublin city council)
Essex Quay (stop after Winetavern Street)
Ushers Quay (stop after Church Street)
Victoria Quay (stop after Watling Street - at start of Guinness premises)
Heuston Station

From Heuston
Heuston Station
Wolfe Tone Quay (before Watling Street bridge just after National Museum Collins Barracks)
Arran Quay (just before Church Street) (contentious)
Inns Quay (outside Four Courts)
Upper Ormond Quay (just before Capel Street)
Bachelors Walk (Stop EP - the first stop after the Ha'penny bridge)
D'Olier Street

KC61 · 28-09-2010 11:22AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Inded The arguement put forward by KC61 mirrors what I believe to be the "Official" approach..."Sure it has to be safe,nobody`s been killed....yet"

I am not saying that it must already be safe but I am asking why has this suddenly become an issue now rather than before?

Does it mean that Donnybrook takes safety more seriously than Phibsboro or Conyngham Road?

The simple solution to this is to move the stop back to where it is in the bus lane - the current bus stop location pre-dates the introduction of that stretch of bus lane.

I have found it to be a very user-unfriendly stop and would far prefer it to be located a short distance back along Arran Quay.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 11:40AM

I am not saying that it must already be safe but I am asking why has this suddenly become an issue now rather than before?

Who knows ?

It may well be a long running issue in the local Safety Committe meetings of the other Depot`s.

However the level of application and interest displayed in regard Bus Stop locations has always been low and this represents just another example of that.

I shall certainly be making my own feelings quite clear on the issue and I`d equally encourage other posters to take a moment and observe the manner in which the Stops Location interacts with the surrounding locale...particularly from tyhe point of view of superimposing conflict with other traffic streams.

As for the other observation...

Does it mean that Donnybrook takes safety more seriously than Phibsboro or Conyngham Road?

Again I have no idea of any differentation of regard here,my approach is that the maintenance of MY own safety record is primarily MY own rersponsibility and if an employer requires me to perform an overtly dangerous manouvere then it`ll have to be in writing,signed and dated.

I`m afraid I just see far too many operational similarities between this particular stop and the ill fated stop location on Wellington Quay for it to be comfortably accepted as fit for purpose.

Location adjacent to conflicting Left Turning Traffic.
Restricted manouvering space to allow safe addressing of the Stop
Highly restricted rearward visibility when exiting stop.
Imposed conflict with fast-moving general traffic approaching the junction.

There are enough elements here which require immediate official attention (Garda preferably) to justify a removal from service notice ASAP.

thomasj · 28-09-2010 11:51AM

KC61 wrote: »

I am not saying that it must already be safe but I am asking why has this suddenly become an issue now rather than before?

Does it mean that Donnybrook takes safety more seriously than Phibsboro or Conyngham Road?

The simple solution to this is to move the stop back to where it is in the bus lane - the current bus stop location pre-dates the introduction of that stretch of bus lane.

I have found it to be a very user-unfriendly stop and would far prefer it to be located a short distance back along Arran Quay.

Weren't there donnybrook services on the 46 group of routes that ran from heuston? Did they not serve this stop? And weren't they operated by the occasional triaxle bus?

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 12:56PM

Weren't there donnybrook services on the 46 group of routes that ran from heuston? Did they not serve this stop? And weren't they operated by the occasional triaxle bus?

Thomasj,the answer is Yes,Yes and Yes.

However I rather suspect that most of these routes sailed right on by without either Drivers or Passengers being aware of it`s use.

However I think this might just merit a thread-split as it`s a core issue not specific to this location or the 145 route ?

KD345 · 28-09-2010 02:18PM

As a passenger it has to be one of the most frustrating bus stops in the city. You can't see your bus until it's a few feet away from the stop, and very often it's moving quickly.

If you stand at this junction in the morning you will often see passengers cross a lane of traffic to board some buses which stop side by side to those at the stop. There is often cars parked here too which makes things even more difficult.

Saying that, it is no more dangerous than the 4/7 stop at Lr.Grafton Street, which once again last weekend, had a Dublin Bus tour bus parked there, and two red Dualway buses parked ahead.

If a stop is unsafe it should be removed, but it's not right to have some buses serve a stop and others not. Either it's safe or it isn't.

BenShermin · 28-09-2010 02:19PM

Just to make a point on the Arran Quay jct. Church Street bus stop.

All the buses stopping there (old 92 route and tour bus excepted) are getting very close to their respective city centre termini, this means that the stop is used by very few passengers for boarding a bus and more so by passengers alighting a bus. Another factor in play here is the fact that the very few boarding passengers using this stop can board any bus as there is only one destination from that stop, ie. the city centre.

With these factors in play drivers who do not have passengers on board requesting said stop can simply drive past any bus that is parked at that bus stop safe in the knowledge that any passenger at that stop will be able to board the bus parked there to get to the only destination.

The ballgame at this stop has changed with the introduction of the 145 to the quays, and drivers on this bus will have to keep an eye on the bus stop to make sure that they stop for intending passengers as the 145 doesn't only serve the city centre. With tri axle buses this presents a dangerous situation in my opinion. Lets not forget the 39 bus is tri axle operated also, and two of these buses trying to park at the same time isn't safe!!

The solution as I see it, simply make the stop a "set down" only stop. For any passengers wanting to board buses, the nearest stop is a two minute walk down the quays to the Four Courts. Thus drivers can overtake this stop if not requested at ease without having to worry about intending passengers.This minimalises drivers distaction at this busy junction.

I personally don't like the idea of moving the bus stop back to the middle of Arran Quay, this is only a two lane quay and having a bus stop in this section will only slow down buses that are neither picking up nor dropping off passengers. I believe there is a stop on a one lane system on East of Stephen's Green like that, and it can be very frustrating being stuck on a bus that isn't able to overtake when there is no intending passengers.

Lets see how Dublin Bus work it out though. I also wonder if Network Direct will through up more of these problems.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 02:34PM

If a stop is unsafe it should be removed, but it's not right to have some buses serve a stop and others not. Either it's safe or it isn't.

And in this case it`s definitely not safe,No Stop-Full Stop.

The Grafton St Stop continues to be raised constantly by drivers as an actively unsafe location.
Its blindingly obvious to any passer by and certainly to Drivers and Passengers alike.

The arrival of mass illegal ranking-up by Taxi Drivers has added greatly to the total unsustainability of the current arrangements.

It would not surprise me if some official elements pointed to the reduction of the number 4 route frequency as being helpful from a safety perspective at this point....:rolleyes:

Sometime back the number 10 route was removed from the area and relocted to College Street on safety grounds.

There was a strong rumour (unsubstantiated) at the time that it was due to a Driver on that route sending a solicitors letter to DB senior management,which would certainly influence the deliberations of a Judge should a serious incident subsequently occur at that location.

As it is currently configured this location attempts to cater for
General Through-Traffic
City-Tour Long Dwell.
City-Tour Static Ticket Sales.
Articulated City Stage Carriage.
Normal Cash-Transaction City Stage Carriage
Urban Commuter Set-Down
Touring Coach Set-Down.
Airport Coach set-down inc Luggage Porterage.

If any representative of the Gardai,the NTA,Dublin City Council,DTA or QBN offices is prepared to publicly state these vastly differing services can be safely accomodated at this location I`ll happily engage in spirited debate with them.

However,it probably going to require a serious incident with perhaps even fatalities before any of these agencies take an interest in the thing ? :mad:

KD345 · 28-09-2010 02:35PM

BenShermin wrote: »

All the buses stopping there (old 92 route and tour bus excepted) are getting very close to their respective city centre termini, this means that the stop is used by very few passengers for boarding a bus and more so by passengers alighting a bus.

I would disagree, this is actually a busy stop for passengers traveling towards the city centre. It is a long walk to College Green from here if you're elderly or if there is bad weather. It's even outside the city centre 50c zone, so it's not exactly city centre. Also, the previous stop to this is a good bit before James Joyce bridge, so there does need to be stop in this area.

This stop is also used heavily at peak times for those heading to Baggot Street, Leeson Street, Stephen's Green and Belfield. This will be an all day service in the next few weeks when the 25/26/66/67/37/39/39A/70 gets extended.

The next stop, outside Four Courts, does not serve every bus, as the routes are split, with some stopping at Four Courts, and others stopping after the next junction.

There was a time when this stop was used by the bendy buses on the 25X/39B/39X and Mortons bus service. There was/is often a queue of buses waiting to get into this stop.

I think some Bus Eireann services drop off here too.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 02:40PM

There was a time when this stop was used by the bendy buses on the 25X/39B/39X and Mortons bus service. There was/is often a queue of buses waiting to get into this stop.

I think some Bus Eireann services drop off here too.

KD345,Is there no end to how bad we are prepared to allow things to become ?

Thankfully the arrival of the 145 into the stew may be the straw that breaks this camel`s back.

Once again it highlights the awful reliance we appear to have on spending millions on hi-tech electronics whilst totally neglecting the basic elements of safe operation ?

KC61 · 28-09-2010 02:57PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

KD345,Is there no end to how bad we are prepared to allow things to become ?

Thankfully the arrival of the 145 into the stew may be the straw that breaks this camel`s back.

Once again it highlights the awful reliance we appear to have on spending millions on hi-tech electronics whilst totally neglecting the basic elements of safe operation ?

Alek, I do think that you and are your colleagues are right to highlight problems such as this, but is that a fair statement to say that Dublin Bus totally neglects the basic elements of safe operation across the network?

You yourself have posted examples of safety initiatives.

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 03:16PM

But is that a fair statement to say that Dublin Bus totally neglects the basic elements of safe operation across the network?

Indeed KC6,and neither is that what I am suggesting.

Whilst Dublin Bus has and continues to prioritize Safe Operations as it`s prime motivator the reality is that as a supposed major EU Capital City we are oft reminded about the highly developed administrative elements of the City as a whole.

Dublin Bus attempts to operate to the highest levels of safety required under law and in amany cases then goes that extra mile to reinforce that.

However in the cases at issue here,we see a great vacuum in responsibility for the location and monitoring of Stops.

Attempting to operate safely within this vacuum is a task specifically imposed upon the Driver,with the full responsibility for any consequences resting with him/her.

If I,as a Driver,make an error of judgement at one of these locations I will find myself accounting for that error some time after the event to a Senior Manager whose appreciation of the causitive factors is somewhat removed from my own.

This is why I am in a position to prioritize safety to an extent a senior manager may not be.

Thus I am confident that when our Senior Operations Management,in conjunction with the other Civic Agencies, inspect the working of this particular Stop at Church St junction,they will surely agree that it has become a Risk Management issue that has to be Managed,rather than left as it is in some wayward hope that it`ll be alright ?

That I would consider to be a prudent and proffessional approach to a serious Safety related issue.

KC61 · 28-09-2010 03:22PM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Indeed KC6,and neither is that what I am suggesting.

Whilst Dublin Bus has and continues to prioritize Safe Operations as it`s prime motivator the reality is that as a supposed major EU Capital City we are oft reminded about the highly developed administrative elements of the City as a whole.

Dublin Bus attempts to operate to the highest levels of safety required under law and in amany cases then goes that extra mile to reinforce that.

However in the cases at issue here,we see a great vacuum in responsibility for the location and monitoring of Stops.

Attempting to operate safely within this vacuum is a task specifically imposed upon the Driver,with the full responsibility for any consequences resting with him/her.

If I,as a Driver,make an error of judgement at one of these locations I will find myself accounting for that error some time after the event to a Senior Manager whose appreciation of the causitive factors is somewhat removed from my own.

This is why I am in a position to prioritize safety to an extent a senior manager may not be.

Thus I am confident that when our Senior Operations Management,in conjunction with the other Civic Agencies, inspect the working of this particular Stop at Church St junction,they will surely agree that it has become a Risk Management issue that has to be Managed,rather than left as it is in some wayward hope that it`ll be alright ?

That I would consider to be a prudent and proffessional approach to a serious Safety related issue.

To be fair Alek any business relies on their employees to spot issues such as this - with the best will in the world some will fall through the net (although how this one has lasted so long I do not know), but I am assuming that it will be brought to a head through the safety committees - after all that's what they are there for!

AlekSmart · 28-09-2010 03:28PM

With the best will in the world some will fall through the net (although how this one has lasted so long I do not know), but I am assuming that it will be brought to a head through the safety committees

I too would share that wish,although I would stop short of assumption.

What is particularly noteworthy in this case is the proximity of this highly compromised Stop in a location of extremely high Garda activity on a daily 24/7 basis.

So with that in mind I would heartily endorse your opinion here....

To be fair Alek any business relies on their employees to spot issues such as this

I`m just concerned that a member did not spot this before,or perhaps did and was ignored....however that`s perhaps a tad OT.

wolfpawnat · 28-09-2010 03:32PM

niamhas wrote: »

When I eventually got on a bus at 7.00, we passed another 145 bus at collecting passengers at Trinity College - this bus had not passed us previously so I can only assume that it did not begin it's route at Heuston as I had been waiting there for 40 mins (I hope it did not take this bus 40 mins to get from Heuston to Trinity).

Some of the 145's only go to D'Oilier Street, turn around and head back to Kilmacanogue. These are usually only during busier times to help with the increased customer loads.

SickCert wrote: »

I drive the 145s and the Heuston service does have potential, but are bigger buses the answer? More running time is also required to deliver a constant service allowing for horrendous traffic in Bray and the Quays.

Yes, I know the Quays, especially before 9 am and after 5pm are a B!tch but the service does still need some tweeking!!!

thomasj wrote: »

Vts used on the 10 will probably be used for the 39a with less needed for the 39

The 10 and 39a are being emalgamated in the next few weeks!

foggy_lad · 28-09-2010 03:47PM

KD345 wrote: »

I think some Bus Eireann services drop off here too.

all the 120,123 121 and several of the mullingar/offally direction commuter busses use this stop

genie_us · 28-09-2010 04:11PM

liger wrote: »

What do you mean??? is it not turning up? bus full when it gets to your stop? rude drivers??

Sorry, was offline for a few days. Have not read all the replies I got a bit lost with all the axle talk!!
So I'm sorry if I'm gone off topic now

My problem is, I work just off Leeson st and used to get the 92 to wilton tce, the mornings are grand, but getting the bus back to Heuston in the evenings was a nightmare last week.
I leave work at 4.15 for my train at 5.10, missed it twice last week and made it with seconds to spare the rest of the time. The buses are defo not every 10 minutes from Leeson Street anyway - was waiting over 20 min one day and in the end hopped on a 140 and then a Luas.
All fine but I've prepaid for the old 92 route on my annual ticket so it's a bit annoying having to pay twice.
I don't get the logic of a rail link service that has to come from miles outside the city centre. It's jammers at leeson st, one day I couldn't even get on, and when you do get on, the people all get off from about Stephens green and Aston Quay, and not many - if any - of the originals are still on it all the way to Heuston.

Was off yesterday so I'm about to go now soon - fingers crossed things have improved this week!

BenShermin · 28-09-2010 04:22PM

KD345 wrote: »

I would disagree, this is actually a busy stop for passengers traveling towards the city centre. It is a long walk to College Green from here if you're elderly or if there is bad weather. It's even outside the city centre 50c zone, so it's not exactly city centre. Also, the previous stop to this is a good bit before James Joyce bridge, so there does need to be stop in this area.

It may be a long walk from this stop to College Green but it is not a long walk to the next stop beside the Four Courts which is actually in the city centre 50c zone. Passengers will save money and be able to board a bus at a much safer location. This bus stop is also served by the frequent 151 service giving the customers more choice.

The next stop, outside Four Courts, does not serve every bus, as the routes are split, with some stopping at Four Courts, and others stopping after the next junction.

At the moment the stop outside the Four Courts is served by all buses except for those that turn right at Capel Street Bridge, these buses have a stop at the start of Ormond Quay I believe. When Network Direct phaze one fully comes into force a lot of the buses that turned right at Capel Street Bridge will no longer do so, in fact it will only be the 79/a and 91 buses that will have a right turn. When the 79/a is merged with the 27b (I think) in a later phase there will probably be no buses turning right. This will eliminate the need for seperate bus stops. One hopes that Dublin Bus will cop onto this!

Prehaps then we could look at moving the Four Court bus stop further east to stop the need for a bus stop at Arran Quay?

Dublin Bus route 145 :(

Comments