Ideas to make 3 billion rather than cut 3 billion.

15-09-2010 10:18AM

Senna wrote: »

I started a thread on this a good while ago.
Small things will all add up, we need billions, but just because some ideas are small fry shouldn't mean there ignored.

But ideas should be ignored if they are pointless. Take, as an example, the reg personalisation. I have no doubt some people will buy them, maybe (optimistically) a couple of thousand. Might bring in two or three million in income.

Now, how much will it cost to set-up that system? It'll need a new department in the Vehicle Registration Office, a couple of new employees (keeping in mind that this is the public sector, we can't just re-assign people from other areas). Various staff overheads, computers, lighting, heat etc. There's the actual physical manufacturing of the plates themselves, and even if it's passed on to private companies, they'll be cutting into the profits available. We'll need to change the computer software in every system that records registrations (tax, NCT, gardaí systems etc). And then of course, we'll have to actually change the legislation governing licence plates, which takes up government time while they debate it, and then it needs to be actually drafted, which requires lawyers and judges. All the "Rules of the Road" books and anywhere that sets out the law regarding plates needs to be reprinted. Suddenly that 2 or 3 million isn't looking too significant.

All these "initiatives" to raise money cost huge sums to actually set up and run. Unless there's some huge pot of gold we're sitting on that can be accessed with ease, we can't just hope to fund-raise our way out of debt, especially when it's much more efficient and better in the long-term to remove inefficiencies and wastage in the public sector

tommy21 · 15-09-2010 10:19AM

feicim wrote: »

A few ways for the government to raise funds.

1. A tax on energy resources that are taken from the oil and gas fields off the west coast of ireland. There are potentially hundreds of billions of euros worth of gas/oil in these fields.

2. get our exclusive fishing rights back for the atlantic and promote a renewed fishing industry.

3. With a global food crisis on the cards does it make sense for us (EU) to be paying farmers not to use their farms to produce food?

Fishing and farming and the spin off (food production and packaging) from same would create jobs.

But why would the government do something like this when it would mean confronting the rich and powerful, when they can just raise income taxes and cut the services and welfare of the passive people of Ireland.

1. These have been sold already, or at least the known reserves as far as I know.

2. Irish waters are almost fished-out, if they had any sense (not the fishermen but the government ten years ago), they would have forseen this and put in place some sort of plan to restock.

3. Not sure on this one...

Nijmegen · 15-09-2010 11:03AM

Many of the ideas - for example the eco-tax on plastic bottles that they have in many other countries - are not big money spinners. They are designed to change behaviour, and generally people don't like it either if the tax they pay, for example, for recycling goes to be spent on something else.

I think you also need to weigh every last penny you take out of the economy, considering that one of our core problems is a lack of consumer spending. We need people to spend more of their cash, which puts it to more productive use than taxing that money.

If you increase taxes by 3bn you don't really get 3bn, because that money comes out of the productive areas of the economy leading to job losses, and other taxes lost (eg. VAT.)

If you cut 3bn you are also taking money out of the economy, but you are not (generally) robbing from yourself elsewhere to the same degree. A PS worker going on the dole is a cost reduction, wheras a private sector worker is a cost increase, even when tax, VAT etc, is weighed in.

Of course you might also make 3bn in other ways, such as making up efficiency. The OECD also reckons that in a lot of countries like ours you'd be looking at a 13%+ black economy under normal conditions, that could be better taxed. (This I heard during a discussion on Channel 4 last night re: the UK tax system.)

Stabshauptmann · 15-09-2010 01:22PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There are 6.5 million newspapers sold around the country per week. If we increase the price of every newspaper by

A 50% tax on the independant media? :eek:

Care to share with us the newpaper price elasticity data you, obvioulsly, researched?

Stabshauptmann · 15-09-2010 01:26PM

feelingstressed wrote: »

Shouldn't be an issue for them to pass on the cost to customers

Congrats on being the first out of the trap [sic].

Very simply, if you increase the price of a product or service, the number of people who buy that product/service decreases. As a result the merchant receives less income.

There is no way of passing a cost onto the consumer, because the higher cost results in fewer sales and less revenue for the merchant.

Pharaoh1 · 15-09-2010 03:41PM

Lots of talk on this thread about the potential of agriculture as a sector to generate exports wealth etc..
It is true that we are already world leaders in certain areas. For example despite our small land area we are the no. 1 European beef exporter and no.4 in the world. There is without doubt potential to increase this - lots of older less productive farmers who could be more incentivised to pass land on to younger entrants etc... Interestingly many of these incentives have been scrapped in recent budgets

The other major problem is that agriculture is broadly speaking not a profitable business in this country (see Teagasc figures). Effectively 1990 prices and 2010 input costs. It continues because of its special status as a "way of life" for many who survive on either EU subsidies or off farm income or both.
This year has seen a huge jump in the number of live cattle exported at the expense of jobs in the processing industry as the economics of carrying these animals through to slaughter don't add up for the farmer. Rather than progressing and adding the value at home we are going in the opposite direction.

The growing energy crops would take off if it were profitable. At the moment it is simply too risky and is undertaken mainly by large wealthy landowners who can afford to take a punt and are not too bothered about losing money or being left with a crop they can't sell.
A privately owned generating station close to me is offering a per hectare contract for willow but the price is attracting very little interest from the locals.

maninasia · 15-09-2010 04:06PM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Everybody seems to be talking about cuts in this and that. Why is nobody coming up with Ideas to make more money?

I understand there are savings to be made across the public service which should be done regardless of if were in a crisis or not.

I'm just going to throw out 1 idea out there for making more money and it could easily be branded as a green initiative.

There are 6.5 million newspapers sold around the country per week. If we increase the price of every newspaper by 1euro per copy that will generate extra revenue of €338,000,000 per year.
I don't have the figure for Magazines but we should include them as well.

Well that's one of my ideas but were still about 2.5billion off the mark, anybody else got some suggestions? The less painful the better.

This is pure genius, make an expensive product that is already reducing sales twice as expensive..it's gotta work I tell ya!

Idbatterim · 15-09-2010 05:01PM

http://www.spiritofireland.org/questions.php

this was hyped when it was first mooted. We could stop paying billions to import fossil fuels, export the power and sell it, start our own electric car company. the effects of this on employment and the sentiment of the country and the possibilities it would open up are unbelieveable! The amount of jobs, both direct and indirect that could be created, would be unreal.

Idbatterim · 15-09-2010 05:09PM

also see:

http://www.spiritofireland.org/questions.php

http://en.academic.ru/dic.nsf/enwiki/168432

mike65 · 15-09-2010 05:37PM

Anyone mentioned the procurement process?

http://www.audgen.gov.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=5

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0915/breaking49.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0915/breaking53.html

http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/almost-45m-spent-on-zombie-sites-473709.html

A member of the Dail commitee for same was just on Matt Coopers show talking about a proposal he will be publishing in the next 10 days which will look to cut costs by 10% which would save 1.5 billion per year.

Idbatterim · 15-09-2010 07:40PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0301/1224265371780.html

Forget all the Nimny ****, if this is viable it should proceed asap!

pete_mcs · 22-09-2010 09:00PM

Ireland has a rep for being a green country and we need to use this to our advantage.
1) We should produce only organic high quality food for the exports market. People are willing to pay more for these products and the goverment will benefit from the export taxes.

2) Green tourism, all be it our crap weather may not help this, but we have the perfect country for eco-tourism, ie hill walking, treking, mountain biking etc. With very little investment we could produce and maintain multiple world-class trails that will attrack many. First as already mentioned our cost to tourists needs to be radicaly reduced!

3) Green Energy, may come to a big shock to our leaders, but we are surounded by water, that has waves, that can be turned into electricity (after a initial investment) and sold across the EU. Also the wind is always blowing here in the west, we should have wind farms on every hill in the west, and this "free" power source sold across the EU.

4) The HSE is a disaster, and will take a bigger brain than mine to sort out, but sorting it out is a must. Its a black hole that absorbs our taxes for very poor returns.

5) Social welfare payments should only be awarded for a short period of time after the person becomes un-employed, they should not be available for everyone always. A check-in service and job help service should be available to all the un-employed. Spent a year unemployed, FAS are useless, actually worst than useless!

pljudge321 · 22-09-2010 09:35PM

pete_mcs wrote: »

3) Green Energy, may come to a big shock to our leaders, but we are surounded by water, that has waves, that can be turned into electricity (after a initial investment) and sold across the EU. Also the wind is always blowing here in the west, we should have wind farms on every hill in the west, and this "free" power source sold across the EU.

Europe's nuclear plants make any of these "renewable exports" ideas financially unviable.

irishh_bob · 22-09-2010 09:52PM

pete_mcs wrote: »

Ireland has a rep for being a green country and we need to use this to our advantage.
1) We should produce only organic high quality food for the exports market. People are willing to pay more for these products and the goverment will benefit from the export taxes.

2) Green tourism, all be it our crap weather may not help this, but we have the perfect country for eco-tourism, ie hill walking, treking, mountain biking etc. With very little investment we could produce and maintain multiple world-class trails that will attrack many. First as already mentioned our cost to tourists needs to be radicaly reduced!

3) Green Energy, may come to a big shock to our leaders, but we are surounded by water, that has waves, that can be turned into electricity (after a initial investment) and sold across the EU. Also the wind is always blowing here in the west, we should have wind farms on every hill in the west, and this "free" power source sold across the EU.

4) The HSE is a disaster, and will take a bigger brain than mine to sort out, but sorting it out is a must. Its a black hole that absorbs our taxes for very poor returns.

5) Social welfare payments should only be awarded for a short period of time after the person becomes un-employed, they should not be available for everyone always. A check-in service and job help service should be available to all the un-employed. Spent a year unemployed, FAS are useless, actually worst than useless!

most consumers are not willing to pay higher prices for organic food , i was in the uk last weekend and stayed on a farm B+B one of the nights , the farmer and his wife told be they were only getting 3 pence per litre more for organic milk than the regular stuff , i doubt irish consumers are any different , the reality is that most people are cost conscious when it comes to food

bamboozle · 23-09-2010 10:40AM

Idbatterim wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0301/1224265371780.html

Forget all the Nimny ****, if this is viable it should proceed asap!

this is where we need to focus, govt needs to bring in several measures now to reduce our requirements for fossil fuels being imported.

on an industrial scale per the attached article

then on smaller scales, grants/tax breaks should be given to hotels/gyms/schools/hospitals/industry to fit solar panels/wood pellet boilers as primary sources of heating & hot water.
Sustainable Energy Ireland grants should be increased focusing once again on forms of renewables being incorporated into domestic heating & hot water requirements
the above suggestions would be a much needed boost to construction sector while also reducing our imported energy requirements.

a boost to the motor industry by drastically reducing VRT on electric/smart cars or cars with engines of 1.2L or less, hike up VRT on SUV's to discourage their use. Reduce motor tax, road tolls for electric/smart cars to further encourage their use.

Current birth rates in Ireland are 17 per 1000 as opposed to EU average of 11, in 4-5 years unless something is done very quickly our schools will be drastically overcrowded. Govt needs to act now to prevent this from happening

over the past 10 years Bertie's mates have been getting between 40-90million a year thru renting prefabs to the state as classrooms for kids. This needs to be stopped and top class educational facilities need to be built to cater for the surge of school places that will be required in 4-5 years.
all this building work will once again be a huge boost to construction industry, new schools should be fitted with Geothermal heating, wood pellet boilers, solar panels to ensuer minimal requirements on fossil fuels.

Any news jobs created in Ireland, employers should be exempt from respective PRSI and any other applicable levys.

Tourism - govt should subsidise flights into Ireland from America, Asia, New Zealand and Oz, to attract tourists here, these tourists will stay for longer given the distance they'll travel and will spend more.

Farming - grants to be provided to encourage a move to organic farming. We cant rest on our laurels as being top quality beef & crop exporters we need to build on this & increase exports.

3rd level education - grants provided to increase numbers of phd students in pharma/IT/Science areas

pete_mcs · 23-09-2010 12:32PM

irishh_bob wrote: »

, the reality is that most people are cost conscious when it comes to food

Does organic food cost that nuch more to produce? I grow a small plot myself but would be clueless to know anything about costs on a larger scale, so would have to bow to your better knowledge.

irishh_bob · 23-09-2010 01:43PM

pete_mcs wrote: »

Does organic food cost that nuch more to produce? I grow a small plot myself but would be clueless to know anything about costs on a larger scale, so would have to bow to your better knowledge.

not only does it cost a lot more , you need a lot more land to produce it as the use of artificial fertilizers or pesticides is forbiden , a non organic farmer with 100 acres might be able to own 70 cows where as an organic farmer with 100 acres might only be able to carry 40 cows

whatawaster · 23-09-2010 02:19PM

If we cut VAT, this would obviously increase demand and should help stimulate the economy.

I'm not sure what impact exactly it would have on our VAT receipts?

At the moment we take in 10m a year in VAT. If both rates were cut, say, by 3%, yes the amount of tax collected per transaction would be less, but is there not an argument that, certainly in the long term, such a move would stimulate the economy to produce more and so more taxable transactions would take place.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp · 23-09-2010 02:48PM

Export green energy and fresh water.
(both would require huge investment)

If they can pipe gas from Siberia, surely we should be able to pipe water into the UK and Europe?

rigumagoo · 25-09-2010 02:26AM

Privatization.
Sell off majority shares in our ridiculous (and quasi-illegal, under EU monopoly rules) state-sponsored bodies.

These include:

* CIE (including Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail).
* ESB
* RTE (that way we can bank all of the 'TV licence' money that is used to prop up this network)
* TG4 while we're at it, although god know's who'd want it.
* VHI
* Bord Gáis

Since most of these are already posting deficits, we will achieve a quadruple victory:
1.unloading unprofitable assets.
2.netting the sales revenue.
3.gaining private investors who will run these services better than a government is able to, whom we can then...
4.tax!

femur61 · 25-09-2010 07:29AM

drunkmonkey wrote: »

There are 6.5 million newspapers sold around the country per week. If we increase the price of every newspaper by 1euro per copy that will generate extra revenue of €338,000,000 per year.
.

People might stop buying papers!

There should be a clamp down on non nationals in that a proper assesment/investigation of their childrens should be conducted. How many immigrants have come into ireland that were born on the 1st of January. I see kids that are in 6th class shaving. Child benefit will continue long after they turn 18.

FreudianSlippers · 26-09-2010 03:02PM

rigumagoo wrote: »

Privatization.
Sell off majority shares in our ridiculous (and quasi-illegal, under EU monopoly rules) state-sponsored bodies.

These include:

* CIE (including Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus and Irish Rail).
* ESB
* RTE (that way we can bank all of the 'TV licence' money that is used to prop up this network)
* TG4 while we're at it, although god know's who'd want it.
* VHI
* Bord Gáis

Since most of these are already posting deficits, we will achieve a quadruple victory:
1.unloading unprofitable assets.
2.netting the sales revenue.
3.gaining private investors who will run these services better than a government is able to, whom we can then...
4.tax!

I agree with you on this one. We need to open this country up to more competition and let these companies either sink or swim in real economic competition. This will be good for everyone including the government and the consumers.

johnnyskeleton · 26-09-2010 03:23PM

OisinT wrote: »

I agree with you on this one. We need to open this country up to more competition and let these companies either sink or swim in real economic competition. This will be good for everyone including the government and the consumers.

Deregulation of a market and privatisation are two completely different things.

Deregulating the telecoms market was a benefit, but the privatisation of Eircom was a disaster.

Similarly, having several competitors in the electrictiy market (granted, 2 of them are state owned which is somewhat ridiculous) has produced a level of competition. But selling off these assets will not necessarily lead to competition, as they will likely be bought by an international company who will maintain the monopoly.

So I would be in favour of gradual deregulation rather than privatisation. If this means that the goverment gets less money upfront out of the deal then that is a price worth paying if it means long term competition for services.

The problem is that we cant seem to advance from the stage of monopolies for the network infrastructure (eircom/esb) with private operators having to use this infrastructure at prices set by the monopolistic company.

I would also be in favour of deregulating public transport in cities so that minibusses could operate freely. There are loads of taxi drivers who would gladly take 8 passengers at €1.50 from places that have little or no bus services or from places that charge €2.20 to go into the city centre.

FreudianSlippers · 26-09-2010 03:43PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Deregulation of a market and privatisation are two completely different things.

Deregulating the telecoms market was a benefit, but the privatisation of Eircom was a disaster.

Similarly, having several competitors in the electrictiy market (granted, 2 of them are state owned which is somewhat ridiculous) has produced a level of competition. But selling off these assets will not necessarily lead to competition, as they will likely be bought by an international company who will maintain the monopoly.

So I would be in favour of gradual deregulation rather than privatisation. If this means that the goverment gets less money upfront out of the deal then that is a price worth paying if it means long term competition for services.

The problem is that we cant seem to advance from the stage of monopolies for the network infrastructure (eircom/esb) with private operators having to use this infrastructure at prices set by the monopolistic company.

I would also be in favour of deregulating public transport in cities so that minibusses could operate freely. There are loads of taxi drivers who would gladly take 8 passengers at €1.50 from places that have little or no bus services or from places that charge €2.20 to go into the city centre.

I realise and understand the difference between deregulation and privatisation and I fully agree with you.
I think deregulation is necessary, but I also believe privatisation would be a benefit in some cases.
Certainly not all companies should be fully privatised, but a majority should be either partially or fully privatised. Some businesses would benefit more than others, but they should be considered on a case by case basis.

I don't have a problem though with the state purchasing or owning shares in a company or enterprise that could benefit and make money for the country/taxpayers.

amen · 26-09-2010 04:36PM

instead of ideas to make 3 billion how about a proper cost benefit analysis of what we currently spend and how it is spent e.g. we could abolish motor tax in its current form by adding the price onto the cost of petrol/diesel thus freeing up all those people employed by every country council and also save on the printing of discs etc.

Having centralised computer systems used by every country council instead of each council having its own seperate duplicated system.

Stop capital spending on vanity projects such as Metro North, removal of middle managers in the HSE who came from the old health boards (reported at over 1,000)

abolish Nama. Sell all the assests and take the cash.

At the end of the day we need the money and waiting 20 years for the asset to appreciate isn't on. Nama may also be artificially holding property prices at a higher level than they should be as the market isn't flooded with cheap properties.

FreudianSlippers · 26-09-2010 05:01PM

amen wrote: »

instead of ideas to make 3 billion how about a proper cost benefit analysis of what we currently spend and how it is spent e.g. we could abolish motor tax in its current form by adding the price onto the cost of petrol/diesel thus freeing up all those people employed by every country council and also save on the printing of discs etc.

Motor tax in it's current form has already been properly reformed IMO. Not sure there are really enough savings to be had by not printing discs. Also, the current system keeps people employed - the last thing we need is to make any more jobs redundant.

amen wrote: »

Having centralised computer systems used by every country council instead of each council having its own seperate duplicated system.

This makes sense - probably requires a decent sized monetary contribution but could save money in the long run. But will the saving match the costs?

amen wrote: »

Stop capital spending on vanity projects such as Metro North,

Not sure this will help the economy at all. We need to get new people employed by funding large-scale projects and investment in infrastructure is the way to go in this regard. Sure, we could employ a few thousand people building anything, but with infrastructure at least we are getting something that is useful.

amen wrote: »

removal of middle managers in the HSE who came from the old health boards (reported at over 1,000)

So make more people unemployed and on the dole? I'll pass. HSE needs a complete reform - if there are 1,000 employees doing nothing, then it's the whole of the HSE that needs to be looked at. Surely they can find things for these people to do.

amen wrote: »

abolish Nama. Sell all the assests and take the cash.

Too late, bad idea anyway. NAMA can work, it likely will...

amen wrote: »

At the end of the day we need the money and waiting 20 years for the asset to appreciate isn't on. Nama may also be artificially holding property prices at a higher level than they should be as the market isn't flooded with cheap properties.

We need money, yes. We also need to make sure this country has a future. It's short-sighted economic thinking that got us in this mess. We need to fix the problems and get ourselves out of the current situation with solid solutions, not quick make money schemes.

pete_mcs · 26-09-2010 05:07PM

amen wrote: »

1) " thus freeing up all those people employed by every country council and also save on the printing of discs etc."

2) "Having centralised computer systems"

1) Decent idea, but will be fought against by the Public service unions, these so called unions will destroy this country and prevent any streamlining and prevent the removal of the red tape system that is a blight in the Public service!

2) Another good idea, but again will be impossible to implement, anyone remember the voting machines? Think we are still paying for these to be kept in storage!

Peanut · 26-09-2010 05:28PM

amen wrote: »

Stop capital spending on vanity projects such as Metro North

I'm not really sure that this is a vanity project at all, at least if you consider the airport link (don't know about the rest of it). If you want to encourage tourism into the country, good transport links between the main airport and capital city are important.

You could argue that, well, sure can't they take the bus?

But it's a bit like the difference between flying to Charleroi with Ryanair, and then taking the bus into Brussels, or going direct. People value their time, and if they have a good experience with efficient public transport then that's one more reason to entice them (& their friends) back.

Tazz T · 26-09-2010 05:37PM

Scrap competition, throw the government out, put Michael O'Leary in charge and Ireland would be back in the black in a year.

Sand · 26-09-2010 05:43PM

We could sell people on the dole and criminals into slavery abroad. This would be a source of revenue *and* cut outgoings on social transfers. And its a growing market in Ireland.

Yeah, I know its a little radical, and there might need to be some constitutional changes, but surely the Irish state ought to get something for the investment its made into the education of emigrants?

Ideas to make 3 billion rather than cut 3 billion.

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