Ideas to make 3 billion rather than cut 3 billion.

FreudianSlippers

Sand wrote: »

We could sell people on the dole and criminals into slavery abroad. This would be a source of revenue *and* cut outgoings on social transfers. And its a growing market in Ireland.

Yeah, I know its a little radical, and there might need to be some constitutional changes, but surely the Irish state ought to get something for the investment its made into the education of emigrants?

wait, what? :eek:

how would it help us get something from our investment in education of emigrants?

Sand

Ah, tongue in cheek - but there arent too many opportunties for the state to make 3 billion other than doing its best to improve competition in Ireland and allowing growth. Which is the last thing the Irish state wants to allow happen given their reaction to the likes of O'Leary.

Instead, the plan seems to be hope the people on the dole shag off out of the country and save us the money spent on their dole.

If thats the plan...well, :rolleyes:, but it means the investment of the state in education is merely an freebie to other economies with a functioning system of governance.

TheInquisitor

If we tackled the complete waste going on in ESB networks, ESBI, Bord Gáis and Iarnrod Eireann we'd save 3 billion and possibly much more.

If we tackled the complete waste going on in the public service we'd easily save another 3 billion.

By waste i mean

1) Way too many employees
2) Way too much expenses
3) Wages that are ludicrously high especially in the semi-states
4) Ridiculous working practices that allow everyone to rack up 13k travel expenses per year. (semi states)

FreudianSlippers

TheInquisitor wrote: »

If we tackled the complete waste going on in ESB networks, ESBI, Bord Gáis and Iarnrod Eireann we'd save 3 billion and possibly much more.

If we tackled the complete waste going on in the public service we'd easily save another 3 billion.

By waste i mean

1) Way too many employees
2) Way too much expenses
3) Wages that are ludicrously high especially in the semi-states
4) Ridiculous working practices that allow everyone to rack up 13k travel expenses per year. (semi states)

The country needs an overhaul of its current systems. We need to cut waste and implement appropriate cuts (some will hurt, but are necessary).

You're right - the money can be saved in sensible practices and not knee-jerk reactions to a tough, but not impossible to repair situation.

TheInquisitor

Just for context in the semi states the AVERAGE wage of someone working in ESB is 100,000 per year.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/average-pay-and-pension-of-esb-workers-near-euro100000-2065160.html

I mean that alone is just shocking.


Iarnrod Eireann Wages are less but again still crazy high as an average.

Works out at roughly E64700 per employee

http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/49297%20Iarnrod%20Eireann%20AR09%20EN%20web.pdf

Page 31

amen

ESB networks, ESBI, Bord Gái

these semi states actually make a profit and return money to government each year. In the case of EB and ESBI they have invested heavily in generating companies abroad and are doing what they should be.

Iarnrod Eireann

really should be the CIE group though seems to be a black hole from reading recent newspaper reports and investigations.

More open management would be better.

but will be fought against by the Public service unions

well lets fight them.

but again will be impossible to implement

why ? If you were a multinational with companies in every country you are in effect like a government with multi counties. If they can do we can do it.
Just needs leadership, a clear idea of the end solution and what you need to get their.

FreudianSlippers

amen wrote: »

these semi states actually make a profit and return money to government each year. In the case of EB and ESBI they have invested heavily in generating companies abroad and are doing what they should be.

Just because they are making a profit does not mean that there isn't waste spending in that company. We, as the sovereign of this state need to demand that these companies reduce waste spending so that we can increase our profit potential from these companies.

amen wrote: »

really should be the CIE group though seems to be a black hole from reading recent newspaper reports and investigations.

More open management would be better.

Agreed, it would be a good first step at least.

amen wrote: »

why ? If you were a multinational with companies in every country you are in effect like a government with multi counties. If they can do we can do it.
Just needs leadership, a clear idea of the end solution and what you need to get their.

Agreed here too. We need a business guru to come in and make the tough but right decisions. I believe that this was done, correctly, with NAMA but like any big decisions that have long-term consequences, a lot of the public will have knee-jerk reactions to things they don't fully understand.

pete_mcs

Why are our schools and teachers idle 1/3 of each year? Can there not be something we could use this assets for? Have never understood how the state can pay teachers to sit at home for 3 months each summer with no production, if a private organisation operated like this they would be broke, just like our own country.
We could use the teachers and facilities to teach people skills such as driving training for teenagers, back to work skills for the unemployed, and maybe computer skills for the elderly.
Teachers could also help to get rid of illitreracy and maths difficulties in this country, get everyone on the minimum level of education.
I am aware that the unions and teachers would revolt before any such ideas would be put into practise, and that keeping buildings open during the summer months would actually cost money, but the long term benifits would soon outlay the initial costs.

ei.sdraob

amen wrote: »

these semi states actually make a profit and return money to government each year..

by ripping people off via manipulated prices that are deliberately set high in order to (wait for it) allow for competition :rolleyes:

and yes there is plenty of waste in ESB, seen it first hand

opinion guy

TheInquisitor wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann Wages are less but again still crazy high as an average.

Works out at roughly E64700 per employee

http://www.irishrail.ie/about_us/pdf/49297%20Iarnrod%20Eireann%20AR09%20EN%20web.pdf

Page 31

I knew someone in college who used to work for Iarnrod Eireaan during the summer doing unskilled cleaning work on the lines who made £7000 in 3 months!!!:eek: Thats pounds - your talking close to 10000EUR

StradBally

I posted this info in another thread but it appears relevant to this one as well -

Trade missions selling education abroad are extremely important - education is an enormous industry - if Ireland could take a few percent from the Uk's education export market, then perhaps a few of the financial problems facing Irish schools and colleges could be alleviated and fewer cuts required -

In 2007 a report estimated that the export of education and training in 2003/4 was worth over 28 billion UK pounds to the UK economy.


http://www.britishcouncil.org/global..._an_update.pdf

Bottle_of_Smoke

Idbatterim wrote: »

one of the quickest I could think of would be offering free or subsidised flights into Ireland for stays of x days or more (atleast 5) They must be return and booked outside the state. Promote this heavily abroad. For example say you offer to pay any airline €50 per person per flight. You could also then partner up with hotels or car hire companies, that would offer discounted prices for people involved in the scheme. Id imagine the Uk and Europe would be the best places to target initially. Given how close they are and the already cheap airfares. From further afield, maybe a higher subsidy could be given.

I like this a lot. Though I just think it would have been pitched by O'Leary by now if it were viable. Then again the government/him don't tend to get along

mel.b

Speed Cameras/traffic fines
If the goverment got some gardi or contracted a private company to provide speed cameras for the motor ways and other roads they would rake in an absolute fortune. In my experience the great majority of people driving in Ireland regularly and consistently exceed the speed limit. I think in my almost 3 years in ireland i can count on one hand the number of times i have seen a speed camera or gardai out with a camera. This would work as you are only penalising people who are actually breaking the law, so you're not taxing/effecting everyone. Simple really - if you dont want a fine, don't speed. It potentially also has the added knock on effect of reducing the road toll which in turn reduces hospital admissions, long term care/hospital costs involved for people seriously injured in accidents etc. As an example, the Victorian State goverment in 2010 - 2011 is expecting to rake in $476 million dollars from speed and traffic fines.

Motor tax renewal.
ok, I'll admit it, i'm often late with paying my motor tax:o And every time i have been in to pay it, once the worker realises it is overdue, do you know what they say?

'Do you want to go and get this stamped at the garda station?'

These are goverment employers almost advocating tax evasion! The number of people who take them up on this offer must be huge. if the goverment removed this 'allowance' from the motor tax system again they would rake in the $$


And does Ireland really need 166 members in the Dail? This seems to be such a huge number for such a small population? Seriously that number count be cut by a 1/3 i'm sure?
anyway, that's just a couple of ideas I can see where the goverment can improve things while helping to improve the balance sheet.

lynski

some small steps, wont raise billions but would get some money moving around:

1. Cap the national lottery main prize at 1 million and distribute the rest of the money to the match 5/4/3 winners, you could put at least a million into peoples hands each week, some will be saved - bigger prizes, but i think anything under 4/5k would go on home improvements, cars, etc. you could end up with 25/30 million a year extra being spent, increase in jobs, increase in VAT, all that.
2. Remove VAT on Electricity/Gas and other state services. Again more money in peoples pockets, will help people on the breadline and for others not really enough to squirrel away = increase in spending, so it will worm its way back.
3. Give people booking a 'staycation' a voucher system like to exempt them from VAT, more spending = more jobs = more spending = more jobs.

femur61

Sand wrote: »

the Irish state ought to get something for the investment its made into the education of emigrants?

There are quite a few emigrants in our town who are in primary schools and are shaving. It is well known that they put 1st of Jan of a year a lot younger than they are on the birth cert, hence educated for longer and childrens a llowance for longer. I get childrens allowance and always thought it was too high, I'll take it but welfare seriously needs to be looked at.

FreudianSlippers

femur61 wrote: »

There are quite a few emigrants in our town who are in primary schools and are shaving. It is well known that they put 1st of Jan of a year a lot younger than they are on the birth cert, hence educated for longer and childrens a llowance for longer. I get childrens allowance and always thought it was too high, I'll take it but welfare seriously needs to be looked at.

I'm calling B.S. on this one:

Firstly, you need to google emigrant & immigrant.
Secondly, you have any proof for these accusations?
Thirdly, children mature at different rates - so because one child has facial hair before others it does not mean they are older.
Like, are we talking Billy Madison old here?

gollem_1975

firstly i didn't look through every post on this thread(am at work)

I noted a headline in the metro that 2.4bn been earmarked for a Smart economy tsar.

i'd imagine that a lot of this investment will be going into education (I see the value in education but am less confident in the ability of Irish 3rd level institutions to produce the next intel / google etc. )

would we as a country not be better off creating more places in college for useful skills/services that are in short supply and therefore cause great expense to the state (such as medicine) ?

just an idea.

femur61

OisinT wrote: »

I'm calling B.S. on this one:

Firstly, you need to google emigrant & immigrant.
Secondly, you have any proof for these accusations?
Thirdly, children mature at different rates - so because one child has facial hair before others it does not mean they are older.
Like, are we talking Billy Madison old here?

Yes. And the dogs on the street know about this.

FreudianSlippers

femur61 wrote: »

Yes. And the dogs on the street know about this.

Ah, outstanding proof. I shall go speak with Professor Woof immediately.

mravaya

How many new build empty homes does the government now indirectly own in Ireland? how many people are there who are renting private homes on Rent Allowance? Allocate these empty homes to councils to rent to those now on rent Allowance and put those assets to good use thereby reducing the welfare bill. then allow those same people who eventually get jobs to carry on renting on asubsidised rent to buy scheme, those same people will need to buy white goods and furniture so will start to oil the economy

Idbatterim

How many new build empty homes does the government now indirectly own in Ireland? how many people are there who are renting private homes on Rent Allowance? Allocate these empty homes to councils to rent to those now on rent Allowance and put those assets to good use thereby reducing the welfare bill. then allow those same people who eventually get jobs to carry on renting on asubsidised rent to buy scheme, those same people will need to buy white goods and furniture so will start to oil the economy

These homes in desirable areas, could be completed, and used as rent allowance houses or as investment properties for the state. One of the benefits of this could be, that in renting from the state, you are making an extra construction
to state coffers, which could keep other existing and future taxes down and lead to less cuts...

snaps

Well they cant touch tabacco, Alchol, fuel, VAT etc too much as we have the place to the north of us called Northern Ireland, the place that is full of bargins when it comes to shopping. People will start flooding North again. Fuel increses here have already shut the door on people from the north coming south for fuel, so any rises on fuel duty would be suicide.

Can you legally get heating oil delivered from the North?

babs81

I suggest the following for Budget 2010 and I hope it will be considered hence posting this up.

1. PRODUCTION: I think instead of taxing people more - can we not go back to basics here - we need to go back into producing products that can be marketed which will also create more jobs. I know it takes capital and money to get us back and all the investors have pulled out of our country as we are affectively bankrupt and therefore a potential liability but let me make an example if I may. In China, they make a lot of the world's goods yet you never see China in an economic crisis. I know they make up 1/3 of the world population but maybe we should take note of this idea from them. We need to build on our resources. China is an extremely resourceful country and now possibly moreso than the U.S. which used to not be the case years ago.

2. POSTPONE COSTLY PROJECTS: I think Transport projects are wonderful and I do support the whole Metro project - its a great idea and all and I am all for it but can we not make it until we are in a better financial economic position? and that way we save 2-3 billion euros there or however much it costs to build. The underground is already partially built from the 18th century anyway and probably could be built on less money.
The simple and blunt truth is: there's no money for this or other infrastructure projects. Lets get real here.

3. REFORM THE HEALTH SYSTEM AND MAKE IT FREE: People from low and middle incomes are struggling the most economically with all the cuts and a lot of people can ill-afford to go to the doctor or the dentist when they really need to therefore their health and welfare is not being looked after by the State. Can we not have an Irish NHS?? We are not a third world country and I know our health system is currently privatised. The health professionals should be given a choice whether they want to be a part of this Irish NHS scheme or not and they can still remain private if they so wish but at least have these areas in place. We must be one of the only countries in the EU to not have this. In France, they complained when they had to pay 1e to see a free doctor...but look at us..we pay a min of 50e. My doctor is 65e. And as for the dentist visit, perhaps a min of 70e there.

4. CHANGE THE HSE - they do not look after people who really need help. You can keep it if it saves jobs but make it more humane. The medical cards scheme is one giant mess. If I have money and am over 70 I can get a card and not get messed around. If I am under 70 with a child and in a vunerable group of this society and really need it - my application will get lost, might have to re-do it 3 times then to be told my payslip is now not up to date just because they are processing it 3 months later. Ridiculous - unfair. The phone numbers do not work and when they do they either a) hang up on you b) harrass you c) answer the phone and take all the money you can ill-afford out of your phone d) give you a generic email address if you are lucky but what good is that when your e-mail is going to end up like a needle in a big haystack of other people's queries e) not respond to you within realistic timeframes f) not work even when you have done your application with their new online system g) if I write a letter of complaint to the ombudsman I have to wait 6-9 months for my case to come up because there are already that many complaints to date!

5. DO NOT TOUCH THE PENSION RESERVE: I was horrified to learn recently how some of my colleagues who had put contributions towards their pensions will effectively now lose their 7 years worth of contributions they put towards their pensions. So let's be honest here they have effectively lost their nice pension because we have no money and its been given the go ahead to be used.

6. DO NOT LET THE YOUNG AND INNOCENT PAY AND SUFFER: There are no incentives to keep our children in this country. What have they to look forward to? There are no jobs for them. The students degree fees have increased YET I don't see the scholarships given out increasing. Its like as if the welfare of our young people has been totally taken for granted and their needs are currently being ignored. Is it any wonder the rates of suicide and mental health cases has risen if their voices are not being heard? I also do not want my baby daughter to spend her entire life paying back money to the State when she didn't make the mistake at all. I know we need to get money back but this is not the way to do it. We are not a third world country.

7. DO NOT LIE ABOUT HOW MUCH WE OWE: I have watched this past month us get different figures from 4 billion to 5 billion and now 6 billion when I think its ultimately probably in the region of 8 billion. As for the government, it has had a critical choice to make now. It could:

OPTION 1
1. Have nationalized the banks, auctioned them off and let the market deal with recapitalization, saving its own assets and borrowing powers for infrastructure investment and economic regeneration, as the US did; or

OPTION 2
2. Roll over and play the fool when the bankers came a'running, agreeing to bail out their own excesses at the expense of nearly bankrupting the state and its scoial contract with the people of Ireland.


8. DO NOT INCREASE THE VAT RATE: Its already huge at the moment.
Look at the North of Ireland - if they keep adding to it, everyone will just shop north because at least they will get more products for the same price even with the exchange rate.


9. LOWER THE PRICE OF LIVING: I know we did partially do some of this already with the shops decreasing some of their prices. But on ESSENTIAL items that you need say for instance, infant milk..its still extortionately high and I saw the price of it increase. When I had my baby - it was 9.65e a box and now its 10.49e and up North - for the same box of milk its 3.99 pounds. If we do not lower the cost of living - poverty with families will increase. Its putting a huge strain already on families


10. DO NOT TOUCH THE CHILD BENEFIT: So many people are dependent on it. Its for the child. Why should the child have less just because we have no money? Why should my child have to pay for their pensions? Why should my child get the dregs of a standard pension when they eventually retire? Why are the innocent getting punished for a mistake they never made? Why aren't the ones who did the mistake - like some of those bankers who were held up - not being made accountable?? Why is it all getting swept under the carpet like as if it never happened? Why was not one of them arrested??? why were they still given fat pensions??? Why were they not ordered to repay that money back to the State due to the gross error that was made?



11. STOP THE BANKS FROM CHARGING US TOO MUCH INTEREST: it seems to me that the banks are panicking now and so hiking up their interest rates up on people's accounts. There should be a cap on those. People are already facing negative equity with their properties. Hidden charges are appearing not just on the bank statements. They are everywhere.


12. DO NOT ATTACK THE MIDDLE INCOMERS: Middle incomers make an economy work. If you cut them too much - you will get this big divide between the rich and the poor. The middle incomers have been effectively made poor. Theft is already on the increase because people have no money to live. You see it everywhere even in the shops.



13. FINALLY - THE HOPE IN OUR NATION MUST BE RESTORED. Where is the hope going? Its starting to slowly ebb away like the tide of the sea? Without hope - a nation can not survive. If they want to restore our nation - they need to be supportive to the tax payers - they can't expect the taxpayers to keep getting battered. I do realise they need to shore up more capital than anticipated but why haven't the people who made the mistake not been put under the microscope about this? Also with less politicians we would make savings money-wise (at least one billion!) as they are on huge salaries. We never see them lose their jobs. Without sounding too evil here, maybe if one of them lost their job, they would understand the real feeling of stress that is amongst many of the people at the moment.



SOLUTIONS:

IN ORDER TO STOP THE DEPRESSION WE ARE CURRENTLY LIVING IN:

MAKE THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM FREE IF ITS TO BE REFORMED - people have to pay for their medicine as well - so they are already being caught for two charges, one for the doctor and one for the aftermath of the doctors.
COST OF LIVING AND VAT RATES TO BE DECREASED
HSE SYSTEM TO BE RE-ADJUSTED AND MADE MORE USER FRIENDLY AND HUMANE - working email addresses to be added to their website.
GIVE HOPE TO THE PEOPLE AND THE CHILDREN TO BE GIVEN INCENTIVES TO STAY!
MORE JOBS TO BE MADE VIA PRODUCTION
MONEY TO BE SOUGHT BACK OFF THE BANKERS WHO MADE FATAL ERRORS
INTEREST RATES TO BE FROZEN.
LESS MINISTERS IN ORDER TO RAKE BACK MONEY.
TRANSPORT PROJECTS TO BE POSTPONED UNTIL A LATER MORE FEASIBLE DATE.

Slozer

Best one is from Joe Higgins when asked where he would find 7bn in cuts. He said he wouldn't give any money to the banks and that would save us 30bn plus straight away.

Making 3bn is irrelevant it's policies that need to change and more importantly policies in relation to job creation. This is of paramount importance. Only though job creation and supporting policies can we find the road to recovery.

Fighting Irish

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Everybody seems to be talking about cuts in this and that. Why is nobody coming up with Ideas to make more money?

I understand there are savings to be made across the public service which should be done regardless of if were in a crisis or not.

I'm just going to throw out 1 idea out there for making more money and it could easily be branded as a green initiative.

There are 6.5 million newspapers sold around the country per week. If we increase the price of every newspaper by 1euro per copy that will generate extra revenue of €338,000,000 per year.
I don't have the figure for Magazines but we should include them as well.

Well that's one of my ideas but were still about 2.5billion off the mark, anybody else got some suggestions? The less painful the better.

So glad you are not in power, that is one of the dumbest ideas i've ever heard

thirtythirty

Sell off and privatise the ESB, Eircom, and RTE.

Money made, better service.

Win Win.

sarumite

babs81 wrote: »

I suggest the following for Budget 2010 and I hope it will be considered hence posting this up.

1. PRODUCTION: I think instead of taxing people more - can we not go back to basics here - we need to go back into producing products that can be marketed which will also create more jobs. I know it takes capital and money to get us back and all the investors have pulled out of our country as we are affectively bankrupt and therefore a potential liability but let me make an example if I may. In China, they make a lot of the world's goods yet you never see China in an economic crisis. I know they make up 1/3 of the world population but maybe we should take note of this idea from them. We need to build on our resources. China is an extremely resourceful country and now possibly moreso than the U.S. which used to not be the case years ago.

I stopped reading at this point......For the majority of the 20th century China was an economic mess and even currently China has many internal economic issues to sort out.

babs81

I know China is not perfect in other ways - maybe that was a bad example - my point was just that they have the resources to get themselves out of an economic crisis because they produce so much to the world already. I am sure there is at least one item in your house that says Made In China on the back of it. Apart from Guinness and Whiskey - what else do we export?

amen

1. PRODUCTION: I think instead of taxing people more - can we not go back to basics here - we need to go back into producing products that can be marketed which will also create more jobs. I know it takes capital and money to get us back and all the investors have pulled out of our country as we are affectively bankrupt and therefore a potential liability but let me make an example if I may. In China, they make a lot of the world's goods yet you never see China in an economic crisis. I know they make up 1/3 of the world population but maybe we should take note of this idea from them. We need to build on our resources. China is an extremely resourceful country and now possibly moreso than the U.S. which used to not be the case years ago

We are not going to compete against China/India for low cost manufacturing jobs. That day is gone. We may be able to compete for high tech skill manufacturing such as Intel, Boston Scientific etc but in order to do that we also need to have an educated workforce with an interest in science, engineering etc. Interestingly Germany still has a large manufacturing and steal business.

2. POSTPONE COSTLY PROJECTS: I think Transport projects are wonderful and I do support the whole Metro project - its a great idea and all and I am all for it but can we not make it until we are in a better financial economic position? and that way we save 2-3 billion euros there or however much it costs to build. The underground is already partially built from the 18th century anyway and probably could be built on less money.
The simple and blunt truth is: there's no money for this or other infrastructure projects. Lets get real here

Maybe/Maybe not. If the project is of benefit to society it may be worth doing. One thing we should do is run fibre to every house in the country.

Items 3 and 4

No has the balls to do this. This could be done in 6-12 months but would involved monitoring and performance of staff and firing a lot of non performing staff.

DO NOT TOUCH THE CHILD BENEFIT

Why? Everyone in Ireland gets this irrespective of income. This could be means tested.

A bigger saving would be got centralise hr, payroll across depts.

All government data should be available for scurtiny

babs81

Amen - I say Amen to that! Thank you to amend my post on those points - I know my posting is not entirely perfect but there are sadly some valid points that I have raised - yes the child benefit should be means tested and well I imagine they will just copy the UK regarding this. As for point 1 - yes we have more skilled workers and I agree with your idea with Boston Scientific and the like...as for no-one have the balls to do points 3 and 4 making the healthcare free...then that's a pity..why not?? at least it would give hope to the people and their welfare would get looked after during these hard times. So if that doesn't go ahead then I can't really see things getting better at all.