"Vaccines are safe?" - Family awarded $1.5 million damages

King Mob · 13-09-2010 9:08pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Oh dont worry i have thought about a lot of things.Did you ever think that most of these "studies" are carried out by people who have a vested interest in mass scientific cover-up?

I have thought about this.
Usually these claims are totally unsubstantiated and are usually pretty lame attempts to ignore the studies in question.

Have you ever thought that the places you get your information have their own vested interests or are just plain ill-informed?

Truthrevolution wrote: »

And il tell you what is slowing down progress in autism research is acually lack of research in the right areas.Scientific research mostly ignores important factors like mitochondrial problems, yeast infections, gut issues, enviromental factors and yes vaccines too.Also biomedical interventions are usually frowned upon by the mainstream scientific comunity.

Why do you think these factors are more important exactly?
What research has been done to suggest this?

axer · 13-09-2010 9:14pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Oh dont worry i have thought about a lot of things.Did you ever think that most of these "studies" are carried out by people who have a vested interest in mass scientific cover-up?

You put studies in quotation marks. Have you read any of them? Is there something in particular you don't agree with in them? or are you just against all the evidence in particular.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

And il tell you what is slowing down progress in autism research is acually lack of research in the right areas.Scientific research mostly ignores important factors like mitochondrial problems, yeast infections, gut issues, enviromental factors and yes vaccines too.Also biomedical interventions are usually frowned upon by the mainstream scientific comunity.

I have never understood how people can give out about the "dangers" of vaccines and then at the same time talk about the likes of biomedical interventions. Biomedical interventions are killing children. Crazy parents doing crazy stuff to their children and then have the nerve to call vaccines dangerous.

axer · 13-09-2010 9:32pm

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Julie Gerberding was director of CDC from 1998 until jan 2009

In this video she claims not to know much about Hannah Poling case.

She said she hadn't been able to review the case files herself. She didn't say she didnt know much. I would suspect she does not want to comment on a case without having seen all the case files first.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

She's now the president of Merck Vaccine division.
But why should anyone doubt this womans sincerity?

I know. Why would the evil pharmaceutical hire a person who obviously doesn't have any experience with vaccinations. They must be out to pay her to shut up. I know now that I am in the conspiracy forum.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The following video is an edited version which shows her discussing the "rare" mitochondrial disorder.

Did you even read this?:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0802904

axer · 13-09-2010 9:33pm

Torakx wrote: »

Also there are ALOT of people who have mild cases of autism and its various forms.

How do you know this? Do you know it is very hard to diagnose autism? but yet you can just see people on the street and diagnose them? Are you that good?

Truthrevolution · 13-09-2010 9:34pm

@ King Mob, the issues you have outlined i have spent the last 2 years doing research into these conditions.Havent got the time to go into great details on this forum but you could do well to go look into it yourself if you are really interested.

@ Axer, yes i have looked into studies on both sides of the fence, and also through real life experiences and made my mind up after weighing up either side of the argument.
Interesting you should suggest that children have been killed through biomedical approaches, have you any evidence to back that up?

King Mob · 13-09-2010 9:41pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

@ King Mob, the issues you have outlined i have spent the last 2 years doing research into these conditions.Havent got the time to go into great details on this forum but you could do well to go look into it yourself if you are really interested.

I've done plenty of research myself, and the overwhelming science shows clearly that there is no link.

Can you at least explain how you know that every single study that goes against your position is "rigged"?
Cause that was a pretty big claim to leave totally unsubstantiated.

You certainly wouldn't accept me likewise dismissing all of your research would you?

axer · 13-09-2010 10:01pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

@ King Mob, the issues you have outlined i have spent the last 2 years doing research into these conditions.Havent got the time to go into great details on this forum but you could do well to go look into it yourself if you are really interested.

Was the research performed in the university of google?

Truthrevolution wrote: »

@ Axer, yes i have looked into studies on both sides of the fence, and also through real life experiences and made my mind up after weighing up either side of the argument.
Interesting you should suggest that children have been killed through biomedical approaches, have you any evidence to back that up?

Real life experiences don't mean jack sh'it. You need empirical evidence.

On Tuesday 23rd August 2005 Abubakar Tariq Nadama died while being given an IV push of disodium EDTA in the office of Dr. Roy Eugene Kerry in Portersville, Pennsylvania.

Chelation therapy and the likes are dangerous to say the least.

Yitzhak Rabin · 13-09-2010 10:03pm

Tone down the aggression Axer

Truthrevolution · 13-09-2010 10:24pm

axer wrote: »

Was the research performed in the university of google?

By reading books, talking to people who have been effected by this, going to nutritionists, through the DAN etc.

axer wrote: »

Real life experiences don't mean jack sh'it.

Yes they do, its how things work in the real world.

axer wrote: »

On Tuesday 23rd August 2005 Abubakar Tariq Nadama died while being given an IV push of disodium EDTA in the office of Dr. Roy Eugene Kerry in Portersville, Pennsylvania.

Chelation therapy and the likes are dangerous to say the least.

Thats BS chelation is perfectly safe if done correctly.In any way chelation is only one small aspect of biomedical interventions, there are so may others but i could of guessed the chelation scaremongering was coming.

Now with regards to that unfortunate child who died of disodium poisoning id like to know who that doctor was working for cause he sure as hell wasnt a certified DAN doctor.You cant chelate kids with acid ffs no wonder he died.You cant just simply blame a toxic death like this on biomedicine.

Flawed argument.

King Mob · 13-09-2010 10:33pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Thats BS chelation is perfectly safe if done correctly.In any way chelation is only one small aspect of biomedical interventions, there are so may others but i could of guessed the chelation scaremongering was coming.

Hang on.
Are you serious?

You think vaccines are dangerous but chelation is perfectly safe?

All medical procedures incur risk, stuff like chelation even more so.

Other side effects include fever, headache, nausea, stomach upset, vomiting, convulsions, bone marrow depression, hypotension, cardiac arrhythmias, respiratory arrest, and hypocalcemia. Other concerns include kidney failure, which can require permanent life-limiting and expensive dialysis, or cause death.

And this is leaving aside the fact that chelation has never actually been shown to be an effective treatment for anything other than acute heavy metal poisoning.

You cant chelate kids with acid ffs no wonder he died.

That's what chelation actually is.

And here's a handy list of deaths directly attributable to unnecessary chelation.

Chelation therapy can be hazardous, even conducted with the FDA-approved chelation agents. In August 2005, botched chelation therapy conducted by an ACAM member killed a 5-year-old autistic boy;[15] a 3-year-old nonautistic girl died in February 2005, and a nonautistic adult died in August 2003. These deaths were due to cardiac arrest caused by hypocalcemia during chelation therapy.[33] Only the 3-year-old girl had been medically assessed and found to have an elevated blood lead level and resulting low iron levels and anemia, a proper medical cause for chelation therapy to be conducted.[34]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelation_therapy

axer · 13-09-2010 10:40pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

By reading books, talking to people who have been effected by this, going to nutritionists, through the DAN etc.

Yes they do, its how things work in the real world.

It is not how studies work. Anecdotes are worthless as they are subjective. Empirical evidence is all that matters.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Thats BS chelation is perfectly safe if done correctly.In any way chelation is only one small aspect of biomedical interventions, there are so may others but i could of guessed the chelation scaremongering was coming.

Now with regards to that unfortunate child who died of disodium poisoning id like to know who that doctor was working for cause he sure as hell wasnt a certified DAN doctor.You cant chelate kids with acid ffs no wonder he died.You cant just simply blame a toxic death like this on biomedicine

He was a DAN doctor:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070509032405/www.autismwebsite.com/ari-lists/us/Roy_Kerry,_M.D..html

They tried to quietly remove him but the great thing about the internet is things get archived.

This unproven "cure" for autism has already killed one child and you say it is only one small aspect of biomedical interventions. God forbid it gets more popular.

Di0genes · 13-09-2010 10:57pm

TR firstly can I offer my sympathies to your family. You're enduring something awful, and must be difficult I don't want to pry or intrude.

However I must disagree with your logic. One child is isn't autistic and one child is, and one child had a vaccine and the other has. The vast majority of children in Ireland get vaccines, the majority of children don't have autism. Equating you 50/50 instance is unfair, and unjust.

Truthrevolution · 13-09-2010 11:29pm

King Mob wrote: »

Hang on.
Are you serious?

You think vaccines are dangerous but chelation is perfectly safe?

All medical procedures incur risk, stuff like chelation even more so.

And this is leaving aside the fact that chelation has never actually been shown to be an effective treatment for anything other than acute heavy metal poisoning.

That's what chelation actually is.

And here's a handy list of deaths directly attributable to unnecessary chelation.

Yes i am saying chelation is safe, i have performed it myself.Has done less damage to my child than vaccines thats for certain.I dont know where your getting the scaremongering information from but im holding a tin of EBN chelation here and the side effects listed are:
-fatigue
-lethargy
-nausea
-light headedness
-loss of appetite
-flu like symptoms
-hyperactivity
-irritability
-vomiting in rare cases

These side effects occur as a result of toxins being removed from the body, toxins that were injected from vaccines.

The safe way of chelating is to use minerals, oxidative catalyser or bentonite clay.Disodium or DMSA can only be used in very dilute solutions.
btw you do realise that those deaths you linked me to are as a result of BOTCHED chelation therapies, not ones that were carried out properly.

Truthrevolution · 13-09-2010 11:35pm

axer wrote: »

He was a DAN doctor:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070509032405/www.autismwebsite.com/ari-lists/us/Roy_Kerry,_M.D..html

They tried to quietly remove him but the great thing about the internet is things get archived.

This unproven "cure" for autism has already killed one child and you say it is only one small aspect of biomedical interventions. God forbid it gets more popular.

He is not a listed DAN doctor i have checked.Im not sure of the validation of that page you linked me to but i would imagine if he was a DAN at the time then he was swiftly removed from his post.
Chelation is not touted as a cure, as i said its only a very small part of a medical intervention, its used as a detox treatment not only for autism but for many other ailments too.

King Mob · 13-09-2010 11:47pm

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Yes i am saying chelation is safe, i have performed it myself.

Wow....
Just wow.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Has done less damage to my child than vaccines thats for certain.

How is it for certain exactly?

Truthrevolution wrote: »

I dont know where your getting the scaremongering information from

http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3000843

Also another thing I find hilarious:
Vaccines = Autism, not scaremongering.
Chelation = can be dangerous, scaremongering.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

but im holding a tin of EBN chelation here and the side effects listed are:
-fatigue
-lethargy
-nausea
-light headedness
-loss of appetite
-flu like symptoms
-hyperactivity
-irritability
-vomiting in rare cases

Well if it says it on the tin...

Truthrevolution wrote: »

These side effects occur as a result of toxins being removed from the body,

No, no they're not.
That's not how the body works and it's not how chemistry works.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

toxins that were injected from vaccines.

Which "toxins" are these exactly?
What exact chemicals are being removed?

Truthrevolution wrote: »

The safe way of chelating is to use minerals, oxidative catalyser or bentonite clay.

Well a chelating chemical has a pretty strict definition that I'd wager these things don't fit....

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Disodium or DMSA can only be used in very dilute solutions.

For treating heavy metal poisoning, by a trained medical professional

Truthrevolution wrote: »

btw you do realise that those deaths you linked me to are as a result of BOTCHED chelation therapies, not ones that were carried out properly.

Yea, that's where most of the dangers of all medicines lie.

However chelation (or the nonsensical version you seem to buy) has the extra problem of not having been shown to actually be effective in treating anything.

Torakx · 14-09-2010 12:01am

Yes axer i see sometimes people as i go about my bussiness that show many symptoms of aspergers or mild autism,not all the time! just sometimes.I did say that its not always the case but i already know of 3 that i am close to certain and 100% sure on 2 of those 3.
Im not going to say exactly who they are on a public forum though.Some are not even closely associated with me.
But from talking to the many other people that know them i appear to be the only one that recognises the symptoms.Everyone else seems to not really catch on that these behaviours are a sign of anything.Most consider it just that they are a bit different or prejudice is easy by labeling people who act different as weirdos.
I guess when you know someone who is effected by it the signs are much easier to spot in other people.I do also alot of that nasty googling to learn more about these issues so when i run into people with certain conditions or those around me i can better deal with things in general.
From reading into symptoms and forums for different issues over the last few years i have been able to spot conditions in people that i would of previously had absolutely no idea about before.Autism and Aspergers syndrome were some of those subjects.

Connie_c28 · 14-09-2010 2:20am

I've read all the posts here and while I don't have the quantified stats to prove that vaccines have had an impact on the increase of cases of Autism I do personally believe it is so.

The fact that (2009 figures) 1 out of 161 births in Ireland would later be diagnosed with Autism and this seems to be increasing each year since the introduction of MMR vaccines. Now before the comments start I know how testing, awareness and recognition of conditions also attribute to these increases.

I also know how it is still taboo to even suggest a link both even to the fact of this year a doctor in the UK begin stuck off for doing so
http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/213182-uk-bans-doctor-who-linked-autism-to-vaccine

However I have also seen the other side. I have/do work with children with Autism and as such I have study a lot on the subject. I am aware that there is little if any scientific studies on this but after working with the families and children involved I personally need a study to convience me. I personally know a few children who within days of receiving the jab totally changed from being bubbly kids to some become withdrawn or aggitated and to go on to show challenging behaviour that was not have been there before hand. I will never have my children vaccined but as i said it's a personal choice. The same way as I would not get the Swine flu jab this year and as an Asthma sufferer I deemed an high priority case for this. Maybe the cynic in me but em when the governments gives immunity clauses to big med companies so any side effects my radar definately goes up.......

pablo_escobar · 14-09-2010 6:37am

axer wrote: »

She said she hadn't been able to review the case files herself. She didn't say she didnt know much. I would suspect she does not want to comment on a case without having seen all the case files first.

5 months after HHS conceded the case, she doesn't know everything about the case? and you believe that? sorry, i don't.

I know. Why would the evil pharmaceutical hire a person who obviously doesn't have any experience with vaccinations. They must be out to pay her to shut up. I know now that I am in the conspiracy forum.

money makes people do crazy things. axer.
you wouldn't lie to the public about the safety of vaccines if you knew there was a big check waiting for you at the end of it?

scientific studies can be paid for, scientists and their opinions can be paid for.

i'm not naive enough to believe everyone in the world is honest and cares about the health of other people.scientists don't have some disease which prevents them from lying now and again.

there's a revolving door between the big pharma companies and government agencies who buy their products and that's a problem for me, because you can never be sure if the director hasn't been bought off by the pharma company, you can never be sure the scientist hasn't been paid off.

look at Tony Blair for example, he's made some 20 million pounds as a consultant to various companies since leaving 10 downing street in 2007.

nothing wrong with that? look at the deals he made on behalf of BP freeing lockerbie bombers...and they discussed making him it's chairman.
it's OT, but you simply cannot trust some people to do the right thing.

Did you even read this?:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp0802904

yes i did and it says nothing i didn't already know.
it's merely another opinion and everyone has one.

plenty of other families were compensated under the VICP yet we're still told there's nothing to worry about and you accept this?

i think the pharma companies know more than they're revealing and for perfectly good reason.

axer · 14-09-2010 7:47am

Truthrevolution wrote: »

He is not a listed DAN doctor i have checked.Im not sure of the validation of that page you linked me to but i would imagine if he was a DAN at the time then he was swiftly removed from his post.

According to that page he was a DAN doctor at the time of the incident.

You specifically posted this and you are completely incorrect:

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Now with regards to that unfortunate child who died of disodium poisoning id like to know who that doctor was working for cause he sure as hell wasnt a certified DAN doctor.You cant chelate kids with acid ffs no wonder he died.You cant just simply blame a toxic death like this on biomedicine.

Truthrevolution wrote: »

Chelation is not touted as a cure, as i said its only a very small part of a medical intervention, its used as a detox treatment not only for autism but for many other ailments too.

It is touted as a treatment for autism. It is extremely dangerous and unnecessary procedure. Why would someone put their child to that risk for a treatment that has not been proven to be effective in treating children with autism?

axer · 14-09-2010 7:55am

Torakx wrote: »

Yes axer i see sometimes people as i go about my bussiness that show many symptoms of aspergers or mild autism,not all the time! just sometimes.I did say that its not always the case but i already know of 3 that i am close to certain and 100% sure on 2 of those 3.

You are seriously suggesting that you are able to diagnose autism from a distance. Do you not realise that symptoms of autism are also symptoms of other conditions?

Torakx wrote: »

Im not going to say exactly who they are on a public forum though.Some are not even closely associated with me.
But from talking to the many other people that know them i appear to be the only one that recognises the symptoms.Everyone else seems to not really catch on that these behaviours are a sign of anything.Most consider it just that they are a bit different or prejudice is easy by labeling people who act different as weirdos.

Have you ever thought about opening a practice because most people seem to spend years training to be able to diagnose autism but you can do it from a distance and with people you barely know. Wow.

Torakx wrote: »

I guess when you know someone who is effected by it the signs are much easier to spot in other people.I do also alot of that nasty googling to learn more about these issues so when i run into people with certain conditions or those around me i can better deal with things in general.

You also got a qualification from the university of google? Look I don't mean to be smart but saying you can diagnose autism like that is an insult to those that are qualified to do so.

Torakx wrote: »

From reading into symptoms and forums for different issues over the last few years i have been able to spot conditions in people that i would of previously had absolutely no idea about before.Autism and Aspergers syndrome were some of those subjects.

Why do psychologists go through so much training then? it seems like it is all a waste.

Valmont · 14-09-2010 8:00am

Pablo you made things much worse and put lives at risk by posting about this story. I read your post without being logged in and the google ads underneath were all advertising vaccines of different types. Hope you're happy now:mad:

axer · 14-09-2010 8:12am

Connie_c28 wrote: »

I've read all the posts here and while I don't have the quantified stats to prove that vaccines have had an impact on the increase of cases of Autism I do personally believe it is so.

This is the whole problem I have with the anti-vax movement. Personal believe doesn't mean anything as it is pure subjective. Epidemiological studies have proved time and time again that vaccines do not cause autism. Are you suggesting that your personal beliefs are more trustworthy than the epidemiological studies?

Connie_c28 wrote: »

The fact that (2009 figures) 1 out of 161 births in Ireland would later be diagnosed with Autism and this seems to be increasing each year since the introduction of MMR vaccines. Now before the comments start I know how testing, awareness and recognition of conditions also attribute to these increases.

Where are you getting the Irish stats for the prevalence of autism from 1980 onwards? Were there epidemiological studies done or something?

Connie_c28 wrote: »

I also know how it is still taboo to even suggest a link both even to the fact of this year a doctor in the UK begin stuck off for doing so
http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/213182-uk-bans-doctor-who-linked-autism-to-vaccine

Its taboo because what that doctor did is dispicable. John O'Leary, (formally of Coombe Women's Hospital in Dublin - not sure where he is now) should also have been struct off for his involvement.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

However I have also seen the other side. I have/do work with children with Autism and as such I have study a lot on the subject. I am aware that there is little if any scientific studies on this but after working with the families and children involved I personally need a study to convience me. I personally know a few children who within days of receiving the jab totally changed from being bubbly kids to some become withdrawn or aggitated and to go on to show challenging behaviour that was not have been there before hand. I will never have my children vaccined but as i said it's a personal choice. The same way as I would not get the Swine flu jab this year and as an Asthma sufferer I deemed an high priority case for this. Maybe the cynic in me but em when the governments gives immunity clauses to big med companies so any side effects my radar definately goes up.......

Again here is your problem. A few children is not enough for a study. Can you explain why your experience should be held at a higher value with regards evidence than all the epidemiological studies that have been performed?

axer · 14-09-2010 8:29am

pablo_escobar wrote: »

5 months after HHS conceded the case, she doesn't know everything about the case? and you believe that? sorry, i don't.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

money makes people do crazy things. axer.
you wouldn't lie to the public about the safety of vaccines if you knew there was a big check waiting for you at the end of it?

Not when scientists all over the world would knock you down in a heartbeat if the evidence existed that vaccines caused autism.

You do realise that the anti-vax/crazy remedy cottege industry is a multi-million dollar industry. I see people in that industry doing crazy things to children for money every day performing untested and unproven "treatments" on vunerable children or are they just pure hearted saviours?

pablo_escobar wrote: »

scientific studies can be paid for, scientists and their opinions can be paid for.

But yet any scientific study that has come out linking autism to vaccines has been debunked by the scientific community - its not like there wasn't enough money to do the studies. Look at how much wakefield and his cohorts spent on trying to link the MMR vaccination to autism.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

i'm not naive enough to believe everyone in the world is honest and cares about the health of other people.scientists don't have some disease which prevents them from lying now and again.

They don't have some disease that makes them lie either so why do you think all those scientists are automatically evil and liars when they are the ones researching and studying - providing empirical evidence but then on the other side you have quacks performing remedies that have never been proven to be effective in ANY way. Explain to me how you trust the latter but no the former? Sounds naive to me.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

there's a revolving door between the big pharma companies and government agencies who buy their products and that's a problem for me, because you can never be sure if the director hasn't been bought off by the pharma company, you can never be sure the scientist hasn't been paid off.

but you can be sure that the doctors who make a fortune out of "alternative" treatment for kids with autism are not in it for the easy money? explain that logic?

pablo_escobar wrote: »

look at Tony Blair for example, he's made some 20 million pounds as a consultant to various companies since leaving 10 downing street in 2007.

nothing wrong with that? look at the deals he made on behalf of BP freeing lockerbie bombers...and they discussed making him it's chairman.
it's OT, but you simply cannot trust some people to do the right thing.

What has Tony Blair got to do with this? You don't trust him but you probably trust people like Dr. Sears? Tell me you don't trust ignorant people such as him?

pablo_escobar wrote: »

yes i did and it says nothing i didn't already know.
it's merely another opinion and everyone has one.

Another opinion? This guy backs his opinions up with facts and studies that have not been debunked. He knows vaccines inside out.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

plenty of other families were compensated under the VICP yet we're still told there's nothing to worry about and you accept this?

i think the pharma companies know more than they're revealing and for perfectly good reason.

You think? You believe? You are basing all your opinion from what I can see on the belief that big pharma and the government are out to get the kids. You are the other people in the anti-vax movement are putting children and adults who have weak immune systems' lives at risk because you believe without empirical evidence. Think about that.

Connie_c28 · 14-09-2010 9:50am

axer wrote: »

This is the whole problem I have with the anti-vax movement. Personal believe doesn't mean anything as it is pure subjective. Epidemiological studies have proved time and time again that vaccines do not cause autism. Are you suggesting that your personal beliefs are more trustworthy than the epidemiological studies?

Where are you getting the Irish stats for the prevalence of autism from 1980 onwards? Were there epidemiological studies done or something?

Its taboo because what that doctor did is dispicable. John O'Leary, (formally of Coombe Women's Hospital in Dublin - not sure where he is now) should also have been struct off for his involvement.

Again here is your problem. A few children is not enough for a study. Can you explain why your experience should be held at a higher value with regards evidence than all the epidemiological studies that have been performed?

There was a study in 1984 which escapes me now and as far as my research went was the most recent believe it or not, however Prof Staines in DCU is currently about a year into a proposed 18 month study so hopefully in the coming years we will see more valid research and information on the topic. I would not be surprised to see today’s 1 in 166 drop to an even lower rate again infact I would be surprised if it didn’t!
As for your comment on my belief and that being the problem....I don’t propose to influence others in their opinion I was just expressing my opinion, which is I don't necessarily think you need to have quantified facts for some claims to have merit.
Sure look at this year and the stance on headshop drugs. Some people had bad side effects so they pull the lot. Some have suggested that these people had underlining mental/health issues before taking the drugs and that it wasn’t a straight forward case of a reaction to the drug. Yet without the studies you want here all sorts of doctors were allowed to speak out against such drugs and even the government went so far as to put a ban on them. Should they have waited on more examples and research on this?

ancapailldorcha · 14-09-2010 10:02am

I don't know if any of ye have ever heard of the Cochrane Collaboration but they are a non-profit organisation who examining the evidence for medical treatments and they have found no link whatsoever between MMR and autism.

axer · 14-09-2010 10:15am

Connie_c28 wrote: »

There was a study in 1984 which escapes me now and as far as my research went was the most recent believe it or not, however Prof Staines in DCU is currently about a year into a proposed 18 month study so hopefully in the coming years we will see more valid research and information on the topic. I would not be surprised to see today’s 1 in 166 drop to an even lower rate again infact I would be surprised if it didn’t!

I hope what seems to be the most important factor in the sharp rise in those diagnosed with Autism, more availabilty of diagnosis, is taken into account too. It is alot easier to get an autism diagnosis today than it was 20-30 years ago.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

As for your comment on my belief and that being the problem....I don’t propose to influence others in their opinion I was just expressing my opinion, which is I don't necessarily think you need to have quantified facts for some claims to have merit.

Your claims are completely factless and go against the epidemiological studies that have been found. Your claims have no merit and all they do is spread fear. If I told you I heard that there is cynanide in the water system it would make you think twice before drinking the water. Now imagine you say to yourself "that can't be true so I'll do a quick search on google". Next thing you see lots of people suggesting that the cynanide in the water system is causing all sorts of health problems. Would you still drink the water?

Spreading fear is easy to do. When there is no evidence to support the fear then it is dangerous and irresponsible. A fact is those that claim to be protecting children from the dangerous vaccinations are implicit in childrens deaths.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

Sure look at this year and the stance on headshop drugs. Some people had bad side effects so they pull the lot. Some have suggested that these people had underlining mental/health issues before taking the drugs and that it wasn’t a straight forward case of a reaction to the drug. Yet without the studies you want here all sorts of doctors were allowed to speak out against such drugs and even the government went so far as to put a ban on them. Should they have waited on more examples and research on this?

I think the total ban on head shops was a knee-jerk reaction and was done to suppress the hype. It is the same with the ban on magic mushrooms.

This is still different to Vaccinations where so many studies have shown time and time again that no link exists between vaccinations and autism.

King Mob · 14-09-2010 10:22am

Connie_c28 wrote: »

The fact that (2009 figures) 1 out of 161 births in Ireland would later be diagnosed with Autism and this seems to be increasing each year since the introduction of MMR vaccines. Now before the comments start I know how testing, awareness and recognition of conditions also attribute to these increases.

So if you kno0w this why are you repeating this factoid as if it is true?
Not strike you as a little dishonest?

And here's the thing, because of nonsense like the crap spouted on this thread vaccine rates are going down, yet there is absolutely no effect on the rate of increase of autism.
That kinda proves clearly that there is no link.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

I also know how it is still taboo to even suggest a link both even to the fact of this year a doctor in the UK begin stuck off for doing so
http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/213...ism-to-vaccine

He was struck off for unethical behaviour.
He did stuff the CT crowd like to accuse doctors of, yet people seem to think he's the victim.
You should try reading into the actual unbiased facts of the case, not what "Vaccine News Daily" tells you.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

However I have also seen the other side. I have/do work with children with Autism and as such I have study a lot on the subject. I am aware that there is little if any scientific studies on this but after working with the families and children involved I personally need a study to convience me.

There have been studies, a lot of them, all showing no link whatsoever.
Have you read any of them?
Why do they not convince you?

Connie_c28 wrote: »

I personally know a few children who within days of receiving the jab totally changed from being bubbly kids to some become withdrawn or aggitated and to go on to show challenging behaviour that was not have been there before hand.

If you work with children with autism or know anything about the condition you should know well that the symptoms first become notice around the same time they receive the jab regardless of whether or not they actually receive it.
And if you're familiar with any kind of science you should know that correlation does not imply causation. And you should be also aware of stuff like confirmation biases, ie. you are more likely to remember instances that support your belief than otherwise.

Anecdotes are useless as evidence and it is painfully irresponsible to use them as such when discussing vaccines.

Connie_c28 wrote: »

I will never have my children vaccined but as i said it's a personal choice.

And what about the children who cannot receive vaccines and rely on herd immunity? You know the herd immunity you are denying them by refusing to have your kids vaccinated as well as spreading falsehoods, you know are falsehoods?
Is it ok for you to make their choice as well?

bonkey · 14-09-2010 10:36am

Folks...please bear in mind that this is not a medical forum.

If you want to discuss a conspiracy to portray vaccines as safe when you believe they're not, then please do so.

If you just want to engage in a medical argument, this isn't the place.

If you want to try and convince others that they should / shouldn't be giving their children vaccination and/or alternate treatments, this really isn't the place, as that would constitute medical advice.

joebucks · 14-09-2010 1:41pm

Is there any recorded data of children who have not had the vaccination yet still have autism?

Obviously if there isn't, it would not be proof that there is definitely a link between autism and vaccines, however if there is such data it would surely prove that there is many other factors involved and not just vaccines.

Torakx · 14-09-2010 2:10pm

axer wrote: »

You are seriously suggesting that you are able to diagnose autism from a distance. Do you not realise that symptoms of autism are also symptoms of other conditions?

Have you ever thought about opening a practice because most people seem to spend years training to be able to diagnose autism but you can do it from a distance and with people you barely know. Wow.

You also got a qualification from the university of google? Look I don't mean to be smart but saying you can diagnose autism like that is an insult to those that are qualified to do so.

Why do psychologists go through so much training then? it seems like it is all a waste.

I never said i diagnosed them.I said i sometimes see people on the street who show many of the symptoms of autistic behaviour such as those similar to aspergers syndrome...
I am close with people who have it but are not diagnosed.EVERYONE that knows these people consider them different,strange or just a bit anti-social or awkward.
Yes google has helped me with some health issues that 3 or 4 doctors and a professor in beaumont hospital had no wish to know about.
Just because its non standard the way i do things does not mean i am wrong.It just means i get to a conclusion faster but without the tests that the doctors have to scientifically prove my findings,i can still go and use a doctor to do siad tests after i find the issue and thats how i do things over the last 2 years.I have only gotten healthier as a result.
The proof for me is in the results and cures thankfully and its served me well.
People would also be much much better off in my oppinion if doctors used google instead of mistreating patients like i have experienced through their ignorance of health issues in ireland.
There are many other things a doctor is useful for but im afriad some issues are easier to perpetuate with drugs than cure for these people and i dont blame the actual doctors but the system in place that may also be hiding this stuff from doctors like the vaccines to make mulah.
As for why psychologists train years to spot autism,well thats their bussiness.I dont have their confidence or experience or knowledge.
I have just real life experience over many years but with not as many people as an expert i would guess.
For what its worth and maybe not much to you axer,i find certain symptoms of aspegers and autism to be very pronounced once i know what to look for and its fairly obvious to me that it could be the case when i meet people showing a few of the tell tale signs.
But im not going to insist they go and get diagnosed because afaik there is no cure for it and if there was one it would probably not be available unless the pharma companies could make a massive profit out of it.

What i was really pointing at is that there ARE people out there i know that are undiagnosed some of them into their 50's with aspegers for example.I have absolutely no doubt on this with some of them because of symptoms i would need to be blind not to see it.
Im sorry you find it objectionable that i can see something i doctor can too ^^.I cant change what is and im not going to stop seeing symptoms that are in my face everyday and that i have to deal with on occasion differently than i would with other people,just because i didnt go to college to study it for 6 years.
You dont need a degree to recognise these things all the time,sometimes experience tops medical journals.And in my personal case google research tops at least 3 medical doctors and 1 professor.
Maybe i got unlucky with my choice in doctors and al lthe 2nd oppinions,but thats how it went for me unfortunatly with a very easily diagnosed illness.
Thankfully im an close to fully recovered though

Anyway before i got to answering that my real point is..how many others are walking about with mild cases of aspergers or other forms of autism?
There could be hundreds of people around ireland who have no idea why they find life so hard and people so hard to deal with.Their relationships destroyed in some cases.
I am not 100% sure the vaccines arent the cause of this and if it is them,i can see it very likely the pharma companies would pay ALOT of money to have this covered up.
That is quite a conspiracy should it exist!

ps.Good question Joebucks that is somethign i would love to know for myself.All the people i know affected by these things have had all vaccines.
I have even been in conversation with those with mild aspergers and been told by them they had the vaccines and look they are fine...to which i didnt reply lol.But it goes to show that sometimes people can have these things and not even realise.I have also been vaccinated but show next to no signs.So i figure it could be partly genetic disposition or else mostly as it does run in families and a man with autism run i think an 80% chance of passing it on to his kids.Or at least thats what ive read.Id be more than happy to be corrected on that point.

King Mob · 14-09-2010 2:13pm

joebucks wrote: »

Is there any recorded data of children who have not had the vaccination yet still have autism?

Obviously if there isn't, it would not be proof that there is definitely a link between autism and vaccines, however if there is such data it would surely prove that there is many other factors involved and not just vaccines.

So the fact that vaccination rates are going down yet autism is still rising not indication enough?

EDIT: Actually here's a study that shows the removal of the MMR vaccine from japan had no effect on the rates of autism.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x/abstract

Results: The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.

Conclusions: The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

joebucks · 14-09-2010 2:48pm

King Mob wrote: »

So the fact that vaccination rates are going down yet autism is still rising not indication enough?

Yes it is an indicator, though it is not proof. The rise in autism , as you would argue yourself, may be attributed to increased awareness and detection of the illness.

The evidence you have provided though does prove that there is not a direct correlation between Autism and the MMR vaccine. However I would still be of the opinion that combined with other factors, the vaccine may prove to be a 'tipping point' that could lead to problems for some children.

axer · 14-09-2010 2:58pm

Torakx wrote: »

I never said i diagnosed them.I said i sometimes see people on the street who show many of the symptoms of autistic behaviour such as those similar to aspergers syndrome...

You are labelling them as being undiagnosed autistic. This is giving a false impression that you are able to diagnose autism when that is impossible by just meeting someone on the street.

Torakx wrote: »

I am close with people who have it but are not diagnosed.EVERYONE that knows these people consider them different,strange or just a bit anti-social or awkward.

Again with the diagnosing without having the skills to diagnose.

Torakx wrote: »

Yes google has helped me with some health issues that 3 or 4 doctors and a professor in beaumont hospital had no wish to know about.
Just because its non standard the way i do things does not mean i am wrong.It just means i get to a conclusion faster but without the tests that the doctors have to scientifically prove my findings,i can still go and use a doctor to do siad tests after i find the issue and thats how i do things over the last 2 years.I have only gotten healthier as a result.
The proof for me is in the results and cures thankfully and its served me well.

There is a ton of information about conditions on the internet. The problem is many conditions have similiar symptoms but are vastly different conditions. This is where doctors who have the knowledge to test and diagnose.

Torakx wrote: »

People would also be much much better off in my oppinion if doctors used google instead of mistreating patients like i have experienced through their ignorance of health issues in ireland.

Considering the amount of false information out there I doubt any doctor in his/her right mind would rely on google in anyway.

Torakx wrote: »

There are many other things a doctor is useful for but im afriad some issues are easier to perpetuate with drugs than cure for these people and i dont blame the actual doctors but the system in place that may also be hiding this stuff from doctors like the vaccines to make mulah.

Except the likes of vaccines have been the most important drug invention in the history of medicine.

Torakx wrote: »

As for why psychologists train years to spot autism,well thats their bussiness.I dont have their confidence or experience or knowledge.
I have just real life experience over many years but with not as many people as an expert i would guess.
For what its worth and maybe not much to you axer,i find certain symptoms of aspegers and autism to be very pronounced once i know what to look for and its fairly obvious to me that it could be the case when i meet people showing a few of the tell tale signs.
But im not going to insist they go and get diagnosed because afaik there is no cure for it and if there was one it would probably not be available unless the pharma companies could make a massive profit out of it.

Yes you could spot possible symptoms of aspergers but then again you could be way off the marks because you are not trained in it so it would be best not to use your diagnoses as evidence for anything. No offence intended.

Torakx wrote: »

What i was really pointing at is that there ARE people out there i know that are undiagnosed some of them into their 50's with aspegers for example.I have absolutely no doubt on this with some of them because of symptoms i would need to be blind not to see it.
Im sorry you find it objectionable that i can see something i doctor can too ^^.I cant change what is and im not going to stop seeing symptoms that are in my face everyday and that i have to deal with on occasion differently than i would with other people,just because i didnt go to college to study it for 6 years.
You dont need a degree to recognise these things all the time,sometimes experience tops medical journals.And in my personal case google research tops at least 3 medical doctors and 1 professor.

Unfortunately google doesn't make anyone a doctor or a psychologist. You do need a qualification to diagnose these conditions and there is a reason for that.

Torakx wrote: »

Maybe i got unlucky with my choice in doctors and al lthe 2nd oppinions,but thats how it went for me unfortunatly with a very easily diagnosed illness.
Thankfully im an close to fully recovered though

I'm glad to hear you are fine.

Torakx wrote: »

Anyway before i got to answering that my real point is..how many others are walking about with mild cases of aspergers or other forms of autism?
There could be hundreds of people around ireland who have no idea why they find life so hard and people so hard to deal with.Their relationships destroyed in some cases.
I am not 100% sure the vaccines arent the cause of this and if it is them,i can see it very likely the pharma companies would pay ALOT of money to have this covered up.
That is quite a conspiracy should it exist!

I'm sure there are untreated people with mild autism. Many more people are diagnosed with autism than in the past. Autism is a very broad spectrum which is why we see such a massive increase in the rate of autism. There may, however, be other factors at play too (most likely genetic factors).

Torakx wrote: »

ps.Good question Joebucks that is somethign i would love to know for myself.All the people i know affected by these things have had all vaccines.
I have even been in conversation with those with mild aspergers and been told by them they had the vaccines and look they are fine...to which i didnt reply lol.But it goes to show that sometimes people can have these things and not even realise.

There are plenty of unvaccinated kids out there with autism. Even the flawed Generation Rescue poll showed that but then again we cannot trust such flawed info. We do not know percentages etc since no valid study has ever been performed (for a variety of reasons - mostly because it would be such a difficult study to perform).

enno99 · 14-09-2010 3:00pm

King Mob wrote: »

So the fact that vaccination rates are going down yet autism is still rising not indication enough?

EDIT: Actually here's a study that shows the removal of the MMR vaccine from japan had no effect on the rates of autism.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7610.2005.01425.x/abstract

hers is a little info on one of the authors

This First Amended Complaint includes two new Counts against Professor Sir Michael L. Rutter. Count VII alleges that he failed to disclose in at least four papers published between 2005 and 2009 that he had a crucial conflicting financial interest as a highly paid expert witness for the vaccine industry (and for the U.S. Government that defends industry in Vaccine Court) in at least three major litigation projects

Psychiatrist Professor Sir Michael Rutter is a former (recent) Deputy Chairman of the immensely wealthy Wellcome Trust (founded by the Wellcome Foundation which is now Glaxo). He is also one of the expert witnesses for Glaxo in the MMR litigation (something he did not declare, for example, in the Honda/Rutter paper denying MMR has any association with autism, but I do not see him before the GMC over that

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/rutter_h.html

axer · 14-09-2010 3:02pm

joebucks wrote: »

Yes it is an indicator, though it is not proof. The rise in autism , as you would argue yourself, may be attributed to increased awareness and detection of the illness.

The evidence you have provided though does prove that there is not a direct correlation between Autism and the MMR vaccine. However I would still be of the opinion that combined with other factors, the vaccine may prove to be a 'tipping point' that could lead to problems for some children.

However three is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines are the tipping point. I would think more awareness and diagnosis's are one of the biggest factors as to why autism is on the increase.

Another problem with the anti-vax group is they are constantly moving the goal posts. First it was thimerosol which has been proven not to be related to autism then it was the MMR vaccination which again has been proven not to cause autism. Some people want someone to blame and won't give up until they can blame someone instead of using the energy to help the child with their condition.

King Mob · 14-09-2010 3:02pm

joebucks wrote: »

Yes it is an indicator, though it is not proof. The rise in autism , as you would argue yourself, may be attributed to increased awareness and detection of the illness.

The evidence you have provided though does prove that there is not a direct correlation between Autism and the MMR vaccine.

And when the vaccine was removed there wasn't a blip on the rate of autism.
Even when you consider the fact that there is an increase in detection and diagnosis if vaccines played a part in autism you should see a drop as the vaccine are phased out and a big drop when they cease.

This is not what is seen.

Now remember you said:

Obviously if there isn't, it would not be proof that there is definitely a link between autism and vaccines, however if there is such data it would surely prove that there is many other factors involved and not just vaccines.

I provided exactly that data in a scientific journal and with a large sample of children, yet you are now saying that this doesn't prove what you previously said it would prove.
So seems like you're moving the goalposts.

joebucks wrote: »

However I would still be of the opinion that combined with other factors, the vaccine may prove to be a 'tipping point' that could lead to problems for some children.

What exactly leads you to this conclusion?
What scientific studies show this?
Why, if vaccines are a tipping point do you see autism where there is no vaccination?
How many children is "some"?
Why would they be vulnerable to be tipped by vaccines?

Sweeping sentences declaring your opinion are great and all, but useless unless they are actually backed up with something substantial.

King Mob · 14-09-2010 3:06pm

enno99 wrote: »

hers is a little info on one of the authors

This First Amended Complaint includes two new Counts against Professor Sir Michael L. Rutter. Count VII alleges that he failed to disclose in at least four papers published between 2005 and 2009 that he had a crucial conflicting financial interest as a highly paid expert witness for the vaccine industry (and for the U.S. Government that defends industry in Vaccine Court) in at least three major litigation projects

Psychiatrist Professor Sir Michael Rutter is a former (recent) Deputy Chairman of the immensely wealthy Wellcome Trust (founded by the Wellcome Foundation which is now Glaxo). He is also one of the expert witnesses for Glaxo in the MMR litigation (something he did not declare, for example, in the Honda/Rutter paper denying MMR has any association with autism, but I do not see him before the GMC over that

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/rutter_h.html

So leaving aside that site is one of the single worst crank depositories, and the fact that these accusations are the unsupported ramblings of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Can you actually show that the authors falsified anything in that paper I posted?

axer · 14-09-2010 3:10pm

King Mob wrote: »

So leaving aside that site is one of the single worst crank depositories, and the fact that these accusations are the unsupported ramblings of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Can you actually show that the authors falsified anything in that paper I posted?

The Danish study confirmed the same thing as the Japanese study:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

It shows that MMR does not have any link to autism.

King Mob · 14-09-2010 3:14pm

axer wrote: »

The Danish study confirmed the same thing as the Japanese study:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

It shows that MMR does not have any link to autism.

That shows what I was getting at a bit more clearly.

Torakx · 14-09-2010 3:20pm

Firstly i guess there would have to be more of an awareness before a proper study can be conducted.Most people just dont know enough about it to recognise it,sometimes even in themselves.
I cant go into detail on my particular situation.Its enough to convince me that school teachers at least should be made aware of these symptoms as they can be quite noticeable during school years.
My issue is with the detection of mild autism as appose detecting full blown autism which is alot easier to spot.
The only reason i ever knew people very close to me had it was i happened to be researching symptoms and came across forums and such related to aspergers and autism.That lead me to youtube videos posted by "aspies" and from that you will get to know what i am talking about symptoms wise.Yes it has MANY symptoms.But the right combination leaves me no doubt in some cases.
These studies are useless without proper awareness.
Since afaik there isnt a cure i must conclude there isnt any reason for big studies to be done properly,as the profit might not be there like it is in illnesses or diseases that can be cured or used to sell products.

enno99 · 14-09-2010 3:25pm

King Mob wrote: »

So leaving aside that site is one of the single worst crank depositories, and the fact that these accusations are the unsupported ramblings of people who have no idea what they are talking about.

Can you actually show that the authors falsified anything in that paper I posted?

No I cant

But biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind

King Mob · 14-09-2010 3:28pm

enno99 wrote: »

No I cant

But biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind

So basically you're just making totally baseless accusations because you don't agree with the conclusions of the paper?

axer · 14-09-2010 3:36pm

Torakx wrote: »

Firstly i guess there would have to be more of an awareness before a proper study can be conducted.Most people just dont know enough about it to recognise it,sometimes even in themselves.
I cant go into detail on my particular situation.Its enough to convince me that school teachers at least should be made aware of these symptoms as they can be quite noticeable during school years.
My issue is with the detection of mild autism as appose detecting full blown autism which is alot easier to spot.
The only reason i ever knew people very close to me had it was i happened to be researching symptoms and came across forums and such related to aspergers and autism.That lead me to youtube videos posted by "aspies" and from that you will get to know what i am talking about symptoms wise.Yes it has MANY symptoms.But the right combination leaves me no doubt in some cases.

Are you suggesting that you can even diagnose mild autism too? I'm sorry but I cannot rely on something like that.

nullzero · 14-09-2010 3:45pm

axer wrote: »

Are you suggesting that you can even diagnose mild autism too? I'm sorry but I cannot rely on something like that.

From reading the post you quoted I have taken that Torakx has personal experience of this subject which would give him enough knowledge to be able to recognise the stated symptoms.
I didn't take from that post that Torakx was claiming to be able to diagnose a common cold never mind Austism (mild or otherwise) or Aspergers, although like seeing someone with a runny nose he might be able to deduce from the more obvious symptoms what might be wrong with them.
I think you were being a bit presumptuous in saying he's claiming to be able to diagnose these problems, and I don't think you had the best of intentions when you wrote it either, but that's just my interpretation of what you were saying.

joebucks · 14-09-2010 3:45pm

King Mob wrote: »

And when the vaccine was removed there wasn't a blip on the rate of autism.
Even when you consider the fact that there is an increase in detection and diagnosis if vaccines played a part in autism you should see a drop as the vaccine are phased out and a big drop when they cease.

This is not what is seen.

I provided exactly that data in a scientific journal and with a large sample of children, yet you are now saying that this doesn't prove what you previously said it would prove.
So seems like you're moving the goalposts.

What I meant was that by providing evidence, which you did, would prove that vaccines are not the definitive factor in the cause of Autism. I am not shifting the goalposts I agree with you on this.

What exactly leads you to this conclusion?

My own personal history of illness. I was not talking specifically about Autism but I am of the opinion that not all vaccines are risk free.

What scientific studies show this?

None. There is alot that science has not yet been able to prove. I fell ill over 4 years ago and after seeing all types of doctors and as my symptoms were plain for anyone to see, no doctor has been able to come to a conclusion as to the cause of my illness or how long it will take me to recover.

Why, if vaccines are a tipping point do you see autism where there is no vaccination?

I wasn't referring specifically to autism. I meant that there were risks with the vaccine. Possible side effects include seizures, allergic reactions and temporary low platelet count and these factors may contirbute to other developmental problems in children.

Sweeping sentences declaring your opinion are great and all, but useless unless they are actually backed up with something substantial.

Just my two cents..

The Recliner · 14-09-2010 3:55pm

bonkey wrote: »

Folks...please bear in mind that this is not a medical forum.

If you want to discuss a conspiracy to portray vaccines as safe when you believe they're not, then please do so.

If you just want to engage in a medical argument, this isn't the place.

If you want to try and convince others that they should / shouldn't be giving their children vaccination and/or alternate treatments, this really isn't the place, as that would constitute medical advice.

As posted above, interesting and all as this discussion is it is not relevant to this forum

Feel free to start it up again somewhere else, moving this thread is not an option as with the amount of posts that would need editing or deleting to make it suitable for another forum the thread would no longer make any sense

"Vaccines are safe?" - Family awarded $1.5 million damages

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