CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

shamwari · 09-09-2010 12:11AM

Godge wrote: »

Realistic analysis of a project's prospects is not mocking. Yes, there are some trolls who are coming on here and making snide remarks but the mods are dealing with those.

There are others who have read the NTA report, save the rail's posts, have drawn their own conclusions and are making their views known in a reasonable restrained way.

And it is the trolls who I am singling out for criticism. I'm sick of some of nonsense they are spouting, and I have to wonder what exactly their motivation is.

Sure the case for a CRP has it's weaknesses and they are obvious, but I am not gonna spoke someone else's chances of doing some good just for the sake of making a point here. If a private TOC is interested then great! - let them see if they can make a go of it. If not then sad as it may be, at least they can say they tried and didn't lie down and take it where it hurts.

flyingsnail · 09-09-2010 12:44AM

@ save the rail

Is there some form of formal tendering process for the companies involved. Were they approached or did they approach you?

09-09-2010 12:52AM

I hope this does come to fruition because if it does, and it works, it will prove that IE never bothered to run the line properly.

parsi · 09-09-2010 08:32AM

save the rail wrote: »

Door to door surveying in villages the train stops in (not all homes contacted about half in each village) shows that based on 3 trains a day 70k people would use the service. The problem with the old service was that the train left waterford BEFORE people finished work so they had no other option but to drive. Head counts done on a daily basis showed 40+ passengers average daily each way, big difference to IE 25. Head counts were conducted whilst college students were on holiday

That 70k figure, with 6 out/backs translates to around 40 pax per trip. That seems like a very small number.

As regards the trolling comments : there is nothing wrong about asking how the company that gets to opeate a chunk of our infrastructure will be chosen. The Fastnet line is a private enterprise, using their own vessel and travelling across water than we don't pay to maintain.

Cookie_Monster · 09-09-2010 08:50AM

These "companies" are already clearly known to IE, the Gov and some half assed private "save the rail" campaign. Why would they care about what a bunch of nobody protesters think and advise them of their interest if they are not going to make it public?

penexpers · 09-09-2010 09:08AM

steamengine wrote: »

I've personally witnessed the disgraceful situation where trains departed rosslare as ferries were about to dock.

Just out of curiosity, did anyone survey ferry foot passengers to see where they were going from Rosslare? I couldn't find any reference to this in the SERA report. I know there are pictures on the facebook page showing the number of train passengers in Fishguard heading for the ferry, but if most of them want to head north towards Dublin, then that's not going to help the Rosslare-Waterford line.

thomasj · 09-09-2010 09:17AM

I couldn't see why people going to dublin would be taking the ferry to rosslare. After all, Holyhead is there and there is an airport......

steamengine · 09-09-2010 09:44AM

parsi wrote: »

The Fastnet line is a private enterprise, using their own vessel and travelling across water than we don't pay to maintain.

Ships have to pay light dues - basically an 'infrastructural' charge for use of lighthouses, buoyed channels etc. The lighthouse service is partially subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

Cookie_Monster · 09-09-2010 09:49AM

steamengine wrote: »

Ships have to pay light dues - basically an 'infrastructural' charge for use of lighthouses, buoyed channels etc. The lighthouse service is partially subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

this is actually an interesting topic as lighthouses and buoys are all but redundant for large commercial ships all of which have advanced radar, mapping and GPS tech. They are maintained purely for smaller craft (and emergencies) these days, and they don't even have to pay for it...
I'm sure it pisses shipping companies off no end to fork over 1000's in light dues that they no longer even need.

shamwari · 09-09-2010 11:11AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm sure it pisses shipping companies off no end to fork over 1000's in light dues that they no longer even need.

That's the joys of taxes. We all pay through the nose and get next to f**k all in return. Sorry to see the shipping companies in this situation, but then again, aren't we all in the same boat ?(pardon the pun)

steamengine · 09-09-2010 11:32AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

this is actually an interesting topic as lighthouses and buoys are all but redundant for large commercial ships all of which have advanced radar, mapping and GPS tech. They are maintained purely for smaller craft (and emergencies) these days, and they don't even have to pay for it...
I'm sure it pisses shipping companies off no end to fork over 1000's in light dues that they no longer even need.

Aeronautical charts show the different lighthouses and the flash characteristics also. The airline industry doesn't contribute either. I would have thought buoys are still essential to large shipping to mark channels and hazards, visually or electronically.

Cookie_Monster · 09-09-2010 11:39AM

steamengine wrote: »

Aeronautical charts show the different lighthouses and the flash characteristics also. The airline industry doesn't contribute either. I would have thought buoys are still essential to large shipping whether to mark channels or hazards, visually or electronically.

yes, I suppose they are, but to a much lesser degree than before from larger ships who will have both GPS positioning and extremely detailed charts with the positions marked anyway.

I'm in no way suggesting removal of any of this by the way, its just an interesting example of how the commercial subsidises all users despite receiving little benefit from it in the modern age. Not too many other examples of such happening to such a large degree (apart from direct Tax)

steamengine · 09-09-2010 12:19PM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

yes, I suppose they are, but to a much lesser degree than before from larger ships who will have both GPS positioning and extremely detailed charts with the positions marked anyway.

I'm in no way suggesting removal of any of this by the way, its just an interesting example of how the commercial subsidises all users despite receiving little benefit from it in the modern age. Not too many other examples of such happening to such a large degree (apart from direct Tax)

Same with rail, the tax payer funds the infrastructure whether a particular tax payer uses it or not, and now in the case of the Rosslare line, whether the service is running or not. But without infrastructure all the wider commercial benefits would not accrue. This is the reason railways in general on these islands were always loss makers as they could possibly operate some trains on a profit making basis, but not afford the infrastructural set up and maintenance costs.

corktina · 09-09-2010 12:50PM

thomasj wrote: »

I couldn't see why people going to dublin would be taking the ferry to rosslare. After all, Holyhead is there and there is an airport......

because they are closer to Fishguard or Pembroke maybe?

parsi · 09-09-2010 12:59PM

steamengine wrote: »

Ships have to pay light dues - basically an 'infrastructural' charge for use of lighthouses, buoyed channels etc. The lighthouse service is partially subsidised by the Irish taxpayer.

Did the Port of Cork sidle up to the Fastnet line and say "hey lads, come run this shipping link because SwanseaCork have gone bust" ?

No. The link is open to anyone to use.

The point here - once again - is that it would appear that a company is going to get the running of a line (and the profits) handed over to them without some sort of competitive process.

purplepanda · 09-09-2010 01:49PM

parsi wrote: »

The point here - once again - is that it would appear that a company is going to get the running of a line (and the profits) handed over to them without some sort of competitive process.

Sounds like the current situation on Ireland's rail network with goverment / legislation & IE together blocking access to any potential private operators who might be interested in running services? :eek:

It will take many years for any potential operator to make a profit on the Rosslare Waterford , considering the upgrades that are needed to modernise this line. With the costs of rolling stock & other startup costs added in as well.

Anyway IE are not bloody interested so the opportunity is there for others who are, so good luck to all involved.

The question is once a new franchise is in place will IE still be responsible for maintaince of the tracks, stations & viaducts / bridges or will the new company be required to do this or sub contract this work out themslves?

There has to be an independent mediation process put into place to resolve disputes between IE & other companies operating services on the rail network for any of this to work in without major problems.

ForiegnNational · 09-09-2010 02:01PM

Just a thought (don't flame me)...

Has anybody thought of approaching a Historic rail organisation to see if they are interested in taking over the line?

If you look at the success of lines such as the West Somerset Railway, Severn Valley or Swanage Railway over in the UK, they are able to provide a realistic commuting service, which is subsidised to a great extent by the summer tourist traffic.

I know that rail preservation is dismissed as being old f@rts playing with steam trains (or from past experience here, bound up in bureaucracy or dodgy dealings), but free/cheap labour is a good way of making a line sustainable!

Especially seeing as the end of this line is directly in the port, one benefit of this would be to bring in tourists on day trips (Tag line: "from ferry to funnel" or some such nonsense) from UK tourists, which can't be a bad thing surely?

Benefits:
a) Reduced labour costs
b) Increase tourism revenue
c) Still provide a commuting infrastructure for the South East
d) Potentially increase the number of train journeys a day available (especially in summer)

Down sides:
a) Finding a suitable organisation interested
b) Finding suitable rolling stock (there was a debate about old IE coaches on an earlier thread, will fish for it)

As I said, just an idea, but one that might save a piece of infrastructure from decay and/or demolition.

save the rail · 09-09-2010 02:12PM

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Just a thought (don't flame me)...

Has anybody thought of approaching a Historic rail organisation to see if they are interested in taking over the line?

If you look at the success of lines such as the West Somerset Railway, Severn Valley or Swanage Railway over in the UK, they are able to provide a realistic commuting service, which is subsidised to a great extent by the summer tourist traffic.

I know that rail preservation is dismissed as being old f@rts playing with steam trains (or from past experience here, bound up in bureaucracy or dodgy dealings), but free/cheap labour is a good way of making a line sustainable!

Especially seeing as the end of this line is directly in the port, one benefit of this would be to bring in tourists on day trips (Tag line: "from ferry to funnel" or some such nonsense) from UK tourists, which can't be a bad thing surely?

Benefits:
a) Reduced labour costs
b) Increase tourism revenue
c) Still provide a commuting infrastructure for the South East
d) Potentially increase the number of train journeys a day available (especially in summer)

Down sides:
a) Finding a suitable organisation interested
b) Finding suitable rolling stock (there was a debate about old IE coaches on an earlier thread, will fish for it)

As I said, just an idea, but one that might save a piece of infrastructure from decay and/or demolition.

Great suggestion, can be looked into along with the companies interested, as for the companies they contacted us and we are looking into other options as well. This is going to take a while to set up BUT we are doing our best to get it sorted, at the end of the day all we can do is try. We are not taking IE decision lying down. They may have won the first battle but the war is ongoing .............

Cookie_Monster · 09-09-2010 02:17PM

ForiegnNational wrote: »

Down sides:
a) Finding a suitable organisation interested
b) Finding suitable rolling stock (there was a debate about old IE coaches on an earlier thread, will fish for it)

As I said, just an idea, but one that might save a piece of infrastructure from decay and/or demolition.

Insurance levels in Ireland would make this completely unviable IMO even though it could otherwise be a runner. No insurance company would touch a preserved commuter setup over here or the premium would be crippling to the point of making it pointless.
Thats the biggest difference between here and the UK, where the insurance rates are much more realistic

ClovenHoof · 10-09-2010 01:38PM

markpb wrote: »

I've heard of clutching at straws but that's taking the biscuit

+1000000000000000000000000000

I cannot believe I have just gone through 6 pages of a thread about something that does not exists and it completely and totally a flight of fancy created in the mind of someone so completely out of touch with reality.

Incredible codology going on here. The very idea of a private rail company is going to run a service between two small provincial towns with only small villages and an expensive 24 hour manned swing bridge in the middle. The operating susbsidy would be 100% at least.

When is the Manned Irish Space Mission to Mars starting up? I head that the Minister is not against such an idea either. So it must be happening for 100% certain!!!

This board is very silly.

mickydoomsux · 10-09-2010 02:22PM

ClovenHoof wrote: »

This board is very silly.

As interesting as it is for me, this entire sub-forum is so full of silliness.

People have incredible over-expectations from public transport companies. In one thread they complain about money being wasted within the industry and in the next they complain that either IE or BE doesn't run a loss-making service to every tiny village/town in the country to carry 10 passengers a day.

Our man in Havana · 11-09-2010 01:34AM

The South Wexford will be overgrown with weeds before any private operator runs a train.

Cookie_Monster · 11-09-2010 06:30PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

As interesting as it is for me, this entire sub-forum is so full of silliness.

People have incredible over-expectations from public transport companies. In one thread they complain about money being wasted within the industry and in the next they complain that either IE or BE doesn't run a loss-making service to every tiny village/town in the country to carry 10 passengers a day.

I think the majority of people on here have pretty realistic expectations. IE is a disaster plain and simple, any one of the major EU operators would be able to run a much better service across our network with more routes, more frequency and less money.

foggy_lad · 12-09-2010 01:16AM

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I think the majority of people on here have pretty realistic expectations. IE is a disaster plain and simple, any one of the major EU operators would be able to run a much better service across our network with more routes, more frequency and less money.

they would run a better railway but the first thing any serious company would do is completely redraw the whole network which would involve changing most lines so they were unrecognizable ripping up hundreds of miles of track and laying new track on new lines that fit with where people want to go! THere would also be no more of protecting the rotten railway buildings sheds etc let the preservation groups do that if they want but without any railway monies!

Transportuser09 · 12-09-2010 01:34AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

they would run a better railway but the first thing any serious company would do is completely redraw the whole network which would involve changing most lines so they were unrecognizable ripping up hundreds of miles of track and laying new track on new lines that fit with where people want to go!

Unlikely, it's rare in most countries for complete lines to be ripped up and realigned. The exception would be highspeed schemes like that leading to the Channel Tunnel and the TGV lines in France, but lets be realistic we're never going to have the like in Ireland. Much of the modern European system runs on existing line dating from the 19th century just like here.

foggy_lad wrote: »

THere would also be no more of protecting the rotten railway buildings sheds etc let the preservation groups do that if they want but without any railway monies!

Again not neccessarily, many other rail systems retain older buildings.

foggy_lad · 12-09-2010 08:39AM

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Unlikely, it's rare in most countries for complete lines to be ripped up and realigned. The exception would be highspeed schemes like that leading to the Channel Tunnel and the TGV lines in France, but lets be realistic we're never going to have the like in Ireland. Much of the modern European system runs on existing line dating from the 19th century just like here.

Again not neccessarily, many other rail systems retain older buildings.

well let's start with getting rid of pointless single track then that leaves a train sitting in a station for 20minutes waiting for the train from Dublin to arrive.

Has anyone seen stations as poorly maintained as kildare or Sligo or sallins newbridge or countless other stations that are beyond repair or that have nasty dangerous sheds lying idle around them in the rest of modern Europe??

Cookie_Monster · 12-09-2010 11:24AM

foggy_lad wrote: »

Has anyone seen stations as poorly maintained as kildare or Sligo or sallins newbridge or countless other stations that are beyond repair or that have nasty dangerous sheds lying idle around them in the rest of modern Europe??

Yes, I've come across many stations in Germany, Belgium, Italy and Switzerland that are old and a bit decrepit just like you get here and places that have all sorts of abandoned stock and buildings around them. Its just a fact of railway development, especially on lower volume branch lines

purplepanda · 13-09-2010 12:13AM

Would love to see a private company come in & start services on the line but they would need proper access to other parts of the network to make a success of any venture IMO

Only a serious company like DB / Arriva could make a real go of any venture, they already run many services in Wales (& all over Britain & Europe) & are considering increasing services to Fishguard, perhaps they might even be interested in building up train ferry passenger traffic from Wales & England & running connected services to other parts of Southern Ireland in the long term.

However a serious company like above would not want to run a couple of trains up & down a line with half a dozen stations:rolleyes:

So unless the government IE & NTA allows serious access to the rail network:mad: this is a non starter:(

Partizan · 13-09-2010 10:54AM

purplepanda wrote: »

Would love to see a private company come in & start services on the line but they would need proper access to other parts of the network to make a success of any venture IMO

Only a serious company like DB / Arriva could make a real go of any venture, they already run many services in Wales (& all over Britain & Europe) & are considering increasing services to Fishguard, perhaps they might even be interested in building up train ferry passenger traffic from Wales & England & running connected services to other parts of Southern Ireland in the long term.

However a serious company like above would not want to run a couple of trains up & down a line with half a dozen stations:rolleyes:

So unless the government IE & NTA allows serious access to the rail network:mad: this is a non starter

True and that issue would need to be ironed out before any private operator comes in. However despite what the many doom sayers here are saying, a private operator would indeed be attracted to the line and use it to gain a foothold on further lines and additional services. As we know it is linked to a major port to one of the biggest cities in the State (Waterford), however if the train is run on proper frequency to connect with Dublin Heuston, Limerick Junction and Connolly/Bray bound trains as well as the ferry services, than there would be no need to initially worry about any lack of scope or growth for a new company to worry about.

This is what I believe could happen.

Private company comes in and operates 3-4 trains a day including a Sunday service on rolling stock borrowed from IE while IE is in charge of keeping the line maintained for an initial period. The private company takes a subsidy from the State but after say a given period (2-3 years) it finds that the service is viable (costs come of operating come down in comparison to IE and it finds itself asking for less of the subsidy amount). Passenger numbers are healthy and markably increase. After that it can then sumbit its case to the NTA/Dept. of Transport for greater access to the network - Rosslare to Limerick Junction and Rosslare to Greystones. if it is sucessfull it can then apply for grant / use its own resources to develop and upgrade the Rosslare to Limerick Junction line and increase its scope for development.

There is so many possibilities here which can be explored. Yes the doomsayers have right to be sceptical but I'm an optimist and I woudl not dismiss the efforts of the rail group in courting and talking to potential interested parties. Anyway the one thing can be gleaned from all of this is that nobody in the South East wants IE running the service again.

Its onwards and upwards i say.

dowlingm · 13-09-2010 02:32PM

If the State was really interested in third party involvement on the railways it would adhere to the terms of the EU directives and split IE Infrastructure from IE Operating.

Then, call Conor Murphy and say "I'm sure you wouldn't say no to being able to spend more cash on Belfast-Derry - let's franchise Enterprise to SNCF or DB. IE will take ownership of the NIR 201/DD share, IE will sell 4 22K x 6 to the franchisee and NIR will get cash"

Of course, in theory a new entrant could start up Dublin-Belfast tomorrow but doing this would be massively harder without the governments clearing the way. By comparison, Rosslare-Waterford is a sideshow.

CRP on Rosslare Rail Line

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