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Ground Zero Mosque

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  • #512
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    No, it is not. I address that later in the post.

    The reason alot of people are annoyed is it shows a complete lack of empathy on the part of the people building it..

    I'd say theres a complete lack of knowledge on the part of many objecting.
    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    At THAT location, it is certainly that minority which the building will first represent to many residents. You are acting like it "just another place to put a mosque" and to object to it there is to reject Islam everywhere. Thats sensationalist...

    It's not a mosque, its a community center which will have a dedicated prayer room (the 'mosque')

    Are you saying that people should pander to prejudice? 'I was mugged by a vlack man, therefore I bar all black people from my area' kind of thing?
    Clawdeeus wrote: »
    Although I do recognise that there are a core of people, who perhaps stirred the controversy who ARE anti-Islam.

    O indeed there are.


  • #513
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Nodin wrote: »
    It's not a mosque, its a community center which will have a dedicated prayer room (the 'mosque')
    .
    No need for the parentheses.....
    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions
    It will be a multi-floor community center open to all New Yorkers, much like a YMCA or Jewish Community Center (JCC) with a designated prayer space (mosque) in one area to serve the needs of the large existing community of American Muslims in the neighborhood.

    The JCC and the YMCA don't have synagogues or mosques inside.


    You also have dodged the question which I will ask again.
    Do you think that the Sharia protects minorities as per the Cordoba Initiative's statement on it's home page? A simple yes or no.


  • #514
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    No need for the parentheses.....
    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions



    The JCC and the YMCA don't have synagogues or mosques inside.


    You also have dodged the question which I will ask again.
    Do you think that the Sharia protects minorities as per the Cordoba Initiative's statement on it's home page? A simple yes or no.

    Sharia in the sense they mean it does, yes. Sharia means means "way" or "path". You, or whoever you got this from, seems to be trying to tie this to Sharia law.

    Seeing as we're actually looking at the Cordoba centre, would you tell me whether or not you recognise the difference between a Sufi and a Wahabi muslim?

    Why do you refuse to differentiate between the various sects and schools of Islam?

    If this was a racial matter, with a black group targeting the WTC over some grudge, do yoy think it would appropriate to ban a black or afro-american community centre?


  • #515
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    No need for the parentheses.....
    http://www.cordobainitiative.org/?q=content/frequently-asked-questions



    The JCC and the YMCA don't have synagogues or mosques inside.

    The JCC don't hold religous activities in their centres now....?


  • #516
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    America must have its enemy. The WWII hated Germans and Japanese are now allies. The post-WWII hatred for Communists has been replaced by "Made in (Communist) China." So now its someone else's turn to be hated by America and that appears to be Muslims.

    A Time magazine survey this past week “revealed that many Americans harbor lingering animosity toward Muslims.”

    “Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court,” reports Time. “Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24 percent who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim.”

    Republican leaders such as former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich have fanned the flames of hate by strongly opposing the Ground Zero Mosque in hopes of gaining votes for their 2012 presidential candidacies.

    Sources:
    http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0822/Ground-Zero-mosque-debate-hits-the-streets-of-New-York
    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/41377/

    Grand article on the "Press and punditry stampede tramples good judgment, and often the facts, too" link: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/22/AR2010082202467.html


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  • #517
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Another example of Mosque protests, for those who deny reality, for some bizarre reason:

    In Southern California, a Very Local Mosque Dispute


  • #518
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    If this was a racial matter, with a black group targeting the WTC over some grudge, do yoy think it would appropriate to ban a black or afro-american community centre?

    One is a belief system which can change the other you are born which has no bearing on how you think. Stop muddying the waters.
    Nodin wrote: »
    Sharia in the sense they mean it does, yes. Sharia means means "way" or "path". You, or whoever you got this from, seems to be trying to tie this to Sharia law.

    :eek: That is the saddest most pathetic reply on this thread. Sharia is Sharia Law one and the same and it is without doubt the most discriminatory system against those who don't belong in the world today. Your reply above is making you look foolish. Go and learn about Sharia and Islam before any further comments.


  • #519
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    One is a belief system which can change the other you are born which has no bearing on how you think. Stop muddying the waters.
    .

    One is any number of belief systems.

    Palmach wrote: »
    :eek: That is the ........ comments.

    Evading the issues again?

    Would you tell me whether or not you recognise the difference between a Sufi and a Wahabi muslim?

    Why do you refuse to differentiate between the various sects and schools of Islam?


  • #520
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    :eek: That is the saddest most pathetic reply on this thread. Sharia is Sharia Law one and the same and it is without doubt the most discriminatory system against those who don't belong in the world today. Your reply above is making you look foolish. Go and learn about Sharia and Islam before any further comments.

    Well clearly the guy behind the Cultural center, has his own version of Sharia. Different sects/interpretations in Religion isn't uncommon, and it is pretty funny that your labouring this issue the way you are.


  • #521
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    A more humorous take...
    The planned "ultra-mosque" will be a staggering 5,600ft tall – more than five times higher than the tallest building on Earth – and will be capped with an immense dome of highly-polished solid gold, carefully positioned to bounce sunlight directly toward the pavement, where it will blind pedestrians and fry small dogs. The main structure will be delimited by 600 minarets, each shaped like an upraised middle finger, and housing a powerful amplifier: when synchronised, their combined sonic might will be capable of relaying the muezzin's call to prayer at such deafening volume, it will be clearly audible in the Afghan mountains, where thousands of terrorists are poised to celebrate by running around with scarves over their faces, firing AK-47s into the sky and yelling whatever the foreign word for "victory" is.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque


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  • #522
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Nodin wrote: »
    A more humorous take...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/aug/23/charlie-brooker-ground-zero-mosque

    Ah the good ol' Guardian. When a bit of right-on whitewashing is required it gallops to the rescue. The obligatory reference to "far right" included.


  • #523
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Another Anti-Mosque protest, I am starting to see a pattern here:

    Far from Ground Zero, other plans for mosques run into vehement opposition


  • #524
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Palmach wrote: »
    Ah the good ol' Guardian. When a bit of right-on whitewashing is required it gallops to the rescue. The obligatory reference to "far right" included.


    ...would you care to answer the last two questions I put to you?


  • #525
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Here's a video i found about the "anti-mosque" bigots in NY getting aggressive to a black guy, apparently because they think he is muslim.
    http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/37006_Video-_Anti-Mosque_Mob_Turns_On_Black_Union_Carpenter

    Certainly people have a right to protest, but they do not have a right to molest a member of the general public (who is a carpenter at Ground Zero apparently).


  • #526
    old_aussie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,409 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Fire Destroys Liverpool City Council Chambers (NSW Australia)

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/arson-suspected-as-fire-guts-council-20100815-12575.html

    POLITICIANS believe several contentious local issues could be behind a huge fire that destroyed the Liverpool City Council chambers, which police say may have been deliberately lit.
    The council is fighting a residents' action group in the Land and Environment Court over a decision to approve plans for an Islamic school at Hoxton Park.
    Yesterday the council organised a public rally to protest against the federal government's proposal for an intermodal freight hub in Moorebank, which would add hundreds of trucks to the area's congested roads.

    I believe threatening emails had been sent to Councilors prior to the Council Chambers being tourched.


  • #527
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Perhaps spatial reality functions differently on the other side of the Atlantic, but here in London, something that is "two minutes' walk and round a corner" from something else isn't actually "in" the same place at all. I once had a poo in a pub about two minutes' walk from Buckingham Palace. I was not subsequently arrested and charged with crapping directly onto the Queen's pillow. That's how "distance" works in Britain. It's also how distance works in America, of course, but some people are currently pretending it doesn't, for daft political ends.
    Genius and true.


  • #528
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    old_aussie wrote: »

    I believe threatening emails had been sent to Councilors prior to the Council Chambers being tourched.

    As you're somebody who openly boasted of engaging in thuggery against a muslim, you really can't claim to be any better.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243133&postcount=32
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243331&postcount=44
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243398&postcount=52


  • #529
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    old_aussie wrote:
    Fire Destroys Liverpool City Council Chambers (NSW Australia)

    http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/arson-susp...815-12575.html

    POLITICIANS believe several contentious local issues could be behind a huge fire that destroyed the Liverpool City Council chambers, which police say may have been deliberately lit.
    The council is fighting a residents' action group in the Land and Environment Court over a decision to approve plans for an Islamic school at Hoxton Park.
    Yesterday the council organised a public rally to protest against the federal government's proposal for an intermodal freight hub in Moorebank, which would add hundreds of trucks to the area's congested roads.

    I believe threatening emails had been sent to Councilors prior to the Council Chambers being tourched.
    Nodin wrote: »
    As you're somebody who openly boasted of engaging in thuggery against a muslim, you really can't claim to be any better.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243133&postcount=32
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243331&postcount=44
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65243398&postcount=52

    I'm not sure what the relevance of either of these posts is supposed to be.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #530
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    "Hollywood was once a place that celebrated American values. All that excites the Hollywood elite now are the lefty agenda items of the day like gay marriage or attacking Arizona's immigration law. On more controversial subjects, such as the Ground Zero Mosque, Hollywood tries to ignore the controversy altogether,” Dan Gainor of the Culture and Media Institute told Pop Tarts.

    Source: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2010/08/23/outspoken-hollywood-silent-plans-build-mosque-near-ground-zero/?test=faces

    Maybe Hollywood still remembers how they were treated when Communists were THE ENEMY of America during the McCarthy Era witch hunts, quite like the Muslim enemy du jour?


  • #531
    MrSir
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 241 ✭✭MrSir


    The scary thing about this is that it won't stop here I think. Soon Mosque's opening anywhere in America will meet controversy. It's funny how the good Ol' American Christians are so afraid of terrorism when really it's Muslims who will be more likely to be victims of terrorism today in America.


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  • #532
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    The legend that is the Hitch sums it up.................
    http://www.slate.com/id/2264770


  • #533
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    The legend that is the Hitch sums it up.................
    http://www.slate.com/id/2264770

    Again, nothing really to see here. Also, tbh personally I find anyone who supported the Iraq war and claim to have helped make it happen, to be incredibly sinister, and a extremist, who have blood on there hands (see I can do it too :P).

    Firstly the opinion of 9/11 being blow back is not sinister, and plenty of other people have said. So firstly that is bull ****. In fact it is a pretty desperate smear, and one that is easily shown to be a pile of crap. If Hitch chooses to deny the reality of the 9/11 attackers being motivated by US foreign policy (at least in part), which we know by there own words that they used to justify the attacks, then that is his business, but to call such an opinion sinister is utter nonsense and really pathetic and lazy smear.

    As for the Iranian thing he points out, well if you read the entire article, it doesn't sound quite as bad as Hitch makes it out to be. I don't see the "public endorsement" of the Iranian system of governance that he claims. Now let look at the quote Hitch uses to back this up:
    He should say his administration respects many of the guiding principles of the 1979 revolution -- to establish a government that expresses the will of the people; a just government, based on the idea of Vilayet-i-faqih, that establishes the rule of law.

    Looks to me that he is advising Obama, to you know try and make nice with less radical parts of the Iranian regime and the Iranian people in general, and I would hardly call the above a "public endorsement", as the context of the article is about What Obama should say, which you know means saying stuff to try and make nice with people in the Iranian regime and the Iranian people, who may be willing to talk to the US. Again, another piss poor smear, that to be frank its really really reaching, and I think if funny that the above is the best he could do.

    Then the rest of the article is the typical guilt by association stuff that is very often used. Basically, you see some other people did this, and I know of this on incident where some guy did this, which has feck all to do with the Imam or his Islamic center, just the same old guilt by association.

    Overall, a terrible article, that has pretty much mis-represents a lot of what the Imam says, and tries to demonize him for stating a pretty main stream opinion regarding 9/11 being blow back, and then trying to turn a article on what Obama should say to Iran, as some ringing endorsement of the Iranian regime, and a whole bunch of guilt by association nonsense. Nothing new here at all, and pretty easy to pick a part, by anyone who looks at his ramblings critically.

    **EDIT**
    Oh and the denial of Islamaphobia is disgusting imho, as people have been murdered because people taught they were Muslim. Islamaphobia is as real as Anti-semetism, and other type of racism and bigotry.

    I have had family members (who aren't even Muslim, but have the 2nd name Hussain), who have been on the receiving end of Islamaphobia, which got so bad that they changed there 2nd names. So Hitch can go jump off a cliff on this one, because as far as I am concerned he is engaged in denialism, that make him no better than those who deny evolution or climate change.
    **END EDIT**


  • #534
    Overheal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Palmach wrote: »
    The legend that is the Hitch sums it up.................
    http://www.slate.com/id/2264770
    You eat this?
    I mentioned his sinister belief that the United States was partially responsible for the assault on the World Trade Center
    Have you yet to see Glenn Beck say the same thing? Here's Glenn Beck, saying we brought 9/11 upon ourselves:

    On a recent program of his Glenn Beck said the following
    Glenn Beck, 8/10/2010: What did this “moderate” say just a few days after 9/11? Well of course what all moderates say, quote:


    Imam Feisal Rauf, 9/30/2001: I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.

    I know right? How Sinister of the Imam to say those thi - Wait:
    Glenn Beck, 4/15/2010: Did we deserve 9/11? No. But were we minding our business? No. Were we in bed with dictators and abandoned our values and principles? Yes. That causes problems.

    I think you'll agree both quotes convey the same idea: America was an accessory to it's own tragedy.


  • #535
    Black Swan
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,767 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Are these proposed mosques too close to Ground Zero too?
    Murfreesboro, Tenn., Republican candidates have denounced plans for a large Muslim center proposed near a subdivision, and hundreds of protesters have turned out for a march and a county meeting.

    Temecula, Calif., members of a local Tea Party group took dogs and picket signs to Friday prayers at a mosque that is seeking to build a new worship center on a vacant lot nearby.

    Sheboygan, Wis., a few Christian ministers led a noisy fight against a Muslim group that sought permission to open a mosque in a former health food store bought by a Muslim doctor.

    Source: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/017060.html


  • #536
    Carcharodon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,081 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    He has been in fine form lately, not that he has to put much creativity into making it funny considering the ridiculousness of it all.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/23/stewart-fox-prince-alwaleed_n_692234.html


  • #537
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    Blue_Lagoon wrote: »
    Are these proposed mosques too close to Ground Zero too?


    Source: http://www.amnation.com/vfr/archives/017060.html

    Lets stick to the topic which is the proposed Islamic centre and Mosque near Ground Zero. It should not go ahead. Parts of the planes on 9/11 didn't fall on the places you have mentioned.


  • #538
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Palmach wrote: »
    Lets stick to the topic which is the proposed Islamic centre and Mosque near Ground Zero. It should not go ahead. Parts of the planes on 9/11 didn't fall on the places you have mentioned.

    Its very much a part of the topic, as it shows that the protests against the center is motivated by a general Anti-Muslim sentiment, and that the protest against the Center in New York are by no means unique, and various excuses that effectively blame all Muslims for 9/11, and that people against Mosques and Islamic Centers are pretty much against them everywhere.


  • #539
    Palmach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,032 ✭✭✭Palmach


    wes wrote: »
    Its very much a part of the topic, as it shows that the protests against the center is motivated by a general Anti-Muslim sentiment, and that the protest against the Center in New York are by no means unique, and various excuses that effectively blame all Muslims for 9/11, and that people against Mosques and Islamic Centers are pretty much against them everywhere.

    I can only speak for myself. I think all citizens in a freee society should have the right to build places of worship as long as their use breaks no laws. The Islamic Cultural Centre and Mosque which is the topic of this thread is an insensitive gesture that should not go ahead. Trying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.


  • #540
    mattblacktiger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭mattblacktiger


    Palmach wrote: »
    Trying to portray opponents as bigots is standard left wing boilerplate designed to cut off all debate. Well it won't work.


    You do realize Mayor Bloomberg is a republican.
    You don't have to like the idea , thats fine.
    It's guaranteed under the constitution and bill of rights and that is what is at stake here.


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  • #541
    BluePlanet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,445 ✭✭✭BluePlanet


    Palmach wrote: »
    I can only speak for myself. I think all citizens in a freee society should have the right to build places of worship as long as their use breaks no laws.
    But then you say:
    Palmach wrote: »
    The Islamic Cultural Centre and Mosque is an insensitive gesture that should not go ahead.
    So you're attaching additional criteria to your 1st statement?

    It reminds me of the Holy Cross school dispute in NI.

    The Islamic Centre should proceed. It is a civil rights issue.


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