Ground Zero Mosque

rossc007

Amerika wrote: »

Here, read this on the matter. I think it might clarify some things if you are really interested. Don’t let the fact that it’s Charles Krauthammer dissuade you (and don't do what many on the Left normally do, which is to disbelieve everything before they even read his first word). He is quite brilliant, and has a way of skillfully saying what many truly believe. My favorite commentator and political writer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/12/AR2010081204996.html

Good read that article, some of the comparisons where a bit of a stretch. I don't think you can compare a Mosque in NYC with a Japanese cultural center in Pearl Harbour in all honesty!

I can see both sides of this argument, while part of me would like to take the moral high ground and support the separation of church and state, freedom of religion, I can also see why some people could think the Muslim community might be thumbing their noses at what has to be considered a very 'unique' site.

I think its a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't for Bloomberg.

Overheal

Palmach wrote:

So if the objectors were bigots why did they not object to other Mosques in New York?

...or Tennessee? Wisconsin? California? Oh wait they have.

Otacon

rossc007 wrote: »

I can also see why some people could think the Muslim community might be thumbing their noses at what has to be considered a very 'unique' site.

I may be wrong about this but wasn't the site already a mosque, they just want to expand it to a cultural centre or something? If that is the case, I don't see how it could desecrating a 'unique' site.

Overheal

I'm not sure theres anything unique about a Burlington Coat Factory.

rossc007

Otacon wrote: »

I may be wrong about this but wasn't the site already a mosque, they just want to expand it to a cultural centre or something? If that is the case, I don't see how it could desecrating a 'unique' site.

Do I really have to explain that I was referring to ground zero as a 'unique' site?

I'm pretty sure if there was already a mosque already there then the issue wouldn't be as sensitive. My understanding is the building is not currently a mosque, but Im open to correction.

I never said they where desecrating anything and I personally don't feel that they are.

Amerika

Oz Sultan of the development company behind the center has refuses to say how much of the funding the developers have raised so far. One has to ask, why the need to be so secretive?

And pressed by the media on whether the developers were willing to refuse donations from the governments of Iran or Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 terrorists of 9/11 were from, he answered "I can't comment on that."

Nope… no hidden agenda. Nothing to see here. Please move on.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998

Just the other day Democrat Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, has called for an investigation into funding issues. Oh, but not the funding for the Islamic center, rather instead for the Conservative efforts that oppose it.

Also now CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), which advocates for the implementation of Sharia Law in America, views the matter as a First Amendment - separation of Church and State issue. Now isn’t that ironic.

Liars and Whingers and CAIR, Oh My!

wes

Amerika wrote: »

Oz Sultan of the development company behind the center has refuses to say how much of the funding the developers have raised so far. One has to ask, why the need to be so secretive?

According to there site, they haven't started looking for funding. Perhaps, they want to get it all together and sorted before releasing information. You seem to be insinuating sinister motives on nothing at all.

Amerika wrote: »

And pressed by the media on whether the developers were willing to refuse donations from the governments of Iran or Saudi Arabia where 15 of the 19 terrorists of 9/11 were from, he answered "I can't comment on that."

Nope… no hidden agenda. Nothing to see here. Please move on.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Politics/islamic-center-backers-rule-taking-funds-saudi-arabia/story?id=11429998

Not ruling out funding from certain sources, is evidence of very little, and as per there site, there still sorting out where they should take funding from etc. So again, you are making them out to be sinister on the basis of very little.

Oh btw, Saudi Arabia is a major US ally, and the Republican's and Democrats are pretty friendly with them. So it is the height of hypocrisy for people to say anything to them, even if they do get funding from Saudi Arabia. They are a major US ally, and the both Democrats and Republicans are best pals with them.

Amerika wrote: »

Just the other day Democrat Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, has called for an investigation into funding issues. Oh, but not the funding for the Islamic center, rather instead for the Conservative efforts that oppose it.

So, its ok for you demand funding informaton for the Center, but not the other way round? Strikes me as hypocritical. I think Pelosi has a fair point, considering that a zoning issue is suddendly such a big deal, is a bit odd.

Amerika wrote: »

Also now CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations), which advocates for the implementation of Sharia Law in America, views the matter as a First Amendment - separation of Church and State issue. Now isn’t that ironic.

CAIR arern't building the center, and where on there site can you shown that they support Sharia in the US?

Palmach

wes wrote: »

I

I then proved you to be factually incorrect in your statement here:
So, yes I have refuted you, and yes I have presented facts. You are once again simply wrong, and are now deliberately making false statements imho.

WTF! The Muslim American Society are what they were opposing. Here is what you are dealing with.................
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/44.pdf
Muslims are masters at double speak and obfuscation. Hence the Muslim Brotherhood are using front groups to achieve its aims. People are cottoning on to the fact that Mosques are not just places of prayer. In the words of the Turkish Premier "the Mosques are our barracks and the minarets our bayonets" which should give thinking people pause for thought when one is opening in their neighbourhood.

Amerika

wes wrote: »

CAIR arern't building the center, and where on there site can you shown that they support Sharia in the US?

So if it's not on their website, it can't be true? The silly seasonal bug has infected the website.

"Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran … should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." – Omar Ahmad, founder of the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR).

Here is one particular recent example.
http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x1996914371/Sharia-law-courts-likely-on-2010-ballot

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

Within sight of..

O.

Would you approve of a "muslim free" zone around the area, or would you be content with them wearing a symbol which identifes their faith so people can avoid them and their affairs?

Palmach wrote: »

?????????????????????..

We'll try again - do you believe all muslims are the same?

Palmach wrote: »

The key word is underlined. Think about it. As aetheist I dislike all religions including Judaism. But when it comes to which religion is most likely to be violent and intolerant the facts speak for themselves. As you ignored and I said all one has to do is look at how the one Jewish state treats minorities and how the Islamic states treat them. The Torah has got some quite blood thirsty passages which the Rabbis might well quote but no Jews would demand their full implementation.

Quite a number demand their full implementation - I'm getting the impression you aren't very familiar with whats known as the "settler movement". As for "deeds"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7647991.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7563313.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/november/4/newsid_3211000/3211376.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4682723.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8076597.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6470375.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3891531.stm
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/bitter-olive-harvest-justice-falls-short-in-the-west-bank-1.231373
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8407832.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10161713
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/top-settler-rabbi-arrested-for-allegedly-inciting-to-kill-non-jews-1.304101
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/hebrew-arabic-mix-upsets-neighbors-1.231616
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0720/breaking50.html
http://www.haaretz.com/news/jaffa-mosque-daubed-with-mohammed-is-a-pig-death-to-arabs-1.259956
http://www.haaretz.com/news/top-yesha-rabbi-says-jewish-law-forbids-renting-houses-to-arabs-1.241799
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8356249.stm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/sep/29/israel-jewish-arab-couples

Mob violence, killings, destruction of property and crops, destruction of mosques, political assasination, banning women from partaking in elections, squads to stop "mixing of the races", inciting others to kill non-believers, to discriminate against others...the above is only a sample from that last 15 years or so....

So - again - why is it ok to discriminate against a muslim place of worship on the deeds of a few yahoos but not a Jewish one?

Overheal

Nodin wrote:

We'll try again - do you believe all muslims are the same?

Palmach wrote: »

The answer is they are not but some are more extreme than others. It is important to differentiate.

"Some... are more extreme than others...."

Am I to take from that, that you believe that all Muslims are extremists, and it's only a matter of differentiating who's Extreme-lite and who's Radical-Extremist?

wes

Palmach wrote: »

WTF! The Muslim American Society are what they were opposing. Here is what you are dealing with.................
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/44.pdf

Wow, where do you find this nonsense exactly? If you read the article I linked MAS is not on any US terrroism watch lists, so I think that list sort of trumps another one of you random websites.

Secondly, they were opposing the Mosque, which is the whole point of the article, they even say as much in the head line. Seriously, you seem to have issue with getting basic facts correct.

Palmach wrote: »

Muslims are masters at double speak and obfuscation.

Ah good ol fashioned bigotry. Them Muslims, with there double speak and obfuscation.

Palmach wrote: »

Hence the Muslim Brotherhood are using front groups to achieve its aims.

Well, your own government don't seem to think MAS have anything to do with any terrorist groups....

Oh and in the article;

Heated Opposition to a Proposed Mosque

--SNIP--
“I was on the phone this morning with the F.B.I., and all I want to know from you is why MAS is on the terrorist watch list,” said Joan Moriello, using the acronym for the Muslim American Society. Her question produced a loud, angry noise from the audience.

Mr. Hammous, a physical therapist who lives on Staten Island, exchanged a puzzled look with two other Muslim men who had joined him on the podium, both officers of the society’s Brooklyn branch, which operates a mosque in Bensonhurst and faces opposition to opening another in Sheepshead Bay.

“Your information is incorrect, madam,” he replied. “We are not on any watch list.” The other men, Mohamed Sadeia and Abdel Hafid Djamil, shook their heads in agreement.

The State Department maintains a terrorist watch list for foreign organizations, and the Justice Department has identified domestic groups it considers unindicted co-conspirators in various terror-related prosecutions. The Muslim American Society is on neither of those lists.
--SNIP--

Above emphasis is mine.

So as per the State department, and you know not some random web site, they don't seem to think they have any such links that your random web site claims.

Palmach wrote: »

People are cottoning on to the fact that Mosques are not just places of prayer. In the words of the Turkish Premier "the Mosques are our barracks and the minarets our bayonets" which should give thinking people pause for thought when one is opening in their neighbourhood.

So the Turkish Prime Minister is now the leader of all Muslims every where? Must have missed the memo. Oh wait, he isn't and you are once again talking a lot of crap. Get back to me, when you can provide some actual information, that doesn't come from random-website.com, alright.

The fact remains that Mosques are being opposed all over the US, and you have decided to deny that simple fact, and come up with some allegations from some random web site.

Look here is another example:
Across US, mosque projects meet opposition

Your denial of basic facts is laughable. Once again you are wrong, and I have shown you to be wrong.

wes

Amerika wrote: »

So if it's not on their website, it can't be true? The silly seasonal bug has infected the website.

If that is there stated aim, then I would expect it to be on there website.

Amerika wrote: »

"Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran … should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth." – Omar Ahmad, founder of the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR).

You provide no link or where you got that quote from, so why should I believe it to be true?

**EDIT**
Btw, he stepped down from the boards of directors in 2005.
**EDIT**

Amerika wrote: »

Here is one particular recent example.
http://www.edmondsun.com/local/x1996914371/Sharia-law-courts-likely-on-2010-ballot

Do you read your own links? There is nothing there backs up anything you have said.

Palmach

Nodin wrote: »

O

Would you approve of a "muslim free" zone around the area, or would you be content with them wearing a symbol which identifes their faith so people can avoid them and their affairs

Stupid comment.

We'll try again - do you believe all muslims are the same?

No.

Quite a number demand their full implementation - I'm getting the impression you aren't very familiar with whats known as the "settler movement". As for "deeds"

I have already said that is a conflict situation where people do nasty things. You'll probably find Tamils and Sinhalese having the same problems. As will Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat. You have come up with a tiny minority of crackpots utterly unrepresentative of Jews. As I have pointed out , and you ignored, in Israel minorities get treated as they do in the West but in Islamic states this isn't the case. This what I meant by deeds. The settler movement consists of fanatics and thugs no doubt but in the main don't subscribe to the whack jobs you have linked.

Palmach

wes wrote: »

Wow, where do you find this nonsense exactly? If you read the article I linked MAS is not on any US terrroism watch lists, so I think that list sort of trumps another one of you random websites.....
So the Turkish Prime Minister is now the leader of all Muslims every where? Must have missed the memo. Oh wait, he isn't and you are once again talking a lot of crap. Get back to me, when you can provide some actual information, that doesn't come from random-website.com, alright.

I find it hard to know if you are a mental spastic or you are just trying to wind me up. Every single link you have dismissed when it doesn't suit you. There is little point in further debate.

wes

Palmach wrote: »

No.

Well:

Palmach wrote: »

WTF! The Muslim American Society are what they were opposing. Here is what you are dealing with.................
http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/misc/44.pdf
Muslims are masters at double speak and obfuscation. Hence the Muslim Brotherhood are using front groups to achieve its aims. People are cottoning on to the fact that Mosques are not just places of prayer. In the words of the Turkish Premier "the Mosques are our barracks and the minarets our bayonets" which should give thinking people pause for thought when one is opening in their neighbourhood.

Above emphasis is mine.....

wes

Palmach wrote: »

I find it hard to know if you are a mental spastic or you are just trying to wind me up.

So personal insults then....

Palmach wrote: »

Every single link you have dismissed when it doesn't suit you.

Every single link of yours is full of crap, and I explained why your last one was full of crap. Explain to me why a random web site is more trust worthy than the US state department? As it stand I put more trust in the US state department, than another one of you random web pages, making dodgy allegations.

Palmach wrote: »

There is little point in further debate.

Well, seeing you debating tactic seems to involve making false allegations against Muslims and Muslim groups in general, I don't think there had been much debate, just a constant smear campaign from yourself.

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

.......
Muslims are masters at double speak and obfuscation. Hence the Muslim Brotherhood are using front groups to achieve its aims. People are cottoning on to the fact that Mosques are not just places of prayer........

Just so you know the kind of company you're keeping.

Martin Luther - On the Jews and their lies wrote:

Therefore be on your guard against the Jews, knowing that wherever they have their synagogues, nothing is found but a den of devils in-which sheer self-glory, conceit, lies, blasphemy, and defaming of God and men are practiced most maliciously and vehming his eyes on them.

http://www.humanitas-international.org/showcase/chronography/documents/luther-jews.htm

Amerika

How about that! Most of the American people are siding with that horrible Sarah Palin, who has the guts to say what most Americans have on their minds:

"Mr. President, should they or should they not build a mosque steps away from where the radicals killed 3,000 people? Please tell us your position. We all know that they have a right to do it, but should they? And no, this isn't above your pay grade."

Don't you just love it?

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

Stupid comment..

You stated that a place of worship should be kept out of sight of an area. We're therefore into exclusion zones and notions of ritual purity.

Palmach wrote: »

No...

Then why do you equate an Islamic community centre being proposed by a Sufi with a small group who'd kill the same gentleman as an apostate?

Palmach wrote: »

I have already said that is a conflict situation where people do nasty things. .

These are deeds done by civillians in the name of their brand of a religion. Bit like their bearded bretheren.

Palmach wrote: »

You'll probably find Tamils and Sinhalese having the same problems. As will Hindus and Muslims in Gujarat. .

O Hindu nationalism? Yes, they do much the same kind of thing, with the added joy of caste violence. Do you think we should judge the average Hindu on their behaviour? If not, why not?

Palmach wrote: »

You have come up with a tiny minority of crackpots utterly unrepresentative of Jews. .

There's at least 400,000 settlers, if memory serves, not counting their supporters abroad, who send money and lobby for them. So again - if its ok to discriminate against muslims and a community centre because of the activities of a minority, why doesn't the same hold true for Jews?

Palmach wrote: »

As I have pointed out , (........)to the whack jobs you have linked.

We aren't talking about states - virtually everything I've mentioned was carried out by settlers, not the state of Israel - we are talking about religion.

wes

Amerika wrote: »

How about that! Most of the American people are siding with that horrible Sarah Palin, who has the guts to say what most Americans have on their minds:

"Mr. President, should they or should they not build a mosque steps away from where the radicals killed 3,000 people? Please tell us your position. We all know that they have a right to do it, but should they? And no, this isn't above your pay grade."

Don't you just love it?

Sarah Palin has the right to open her mouth, and spew her barely understandable nonsence, but should she?!?

Amerika

wes wrote: »

Sarah Palin has the right to open her mouth, and spew her barely understandable nonsence, but should she?!?

Wow, since she doesn’t have it stated on her website, nor did I provide a link, I’d of thought the quote of hers wouldn’t be valid in your eyes.
(see how silly it sounds)

wes

Amerika wrote: »

Wow, since she doesn’t have it stated on her website, nor did I provide a link, I’d of thought the quote of hers wouldn’t be valid in your eyes.

Well, it certainly sounds like something she said.

**EDIT**
Its also consistent with her perviously stated position on the Center, and as such I think it unlikely that it is untrue. Sorry, but the 2 examples aren't exactly comparable.
**EDIT**

Amerika wrote: »

(see how silly it sounds)

Well, considering you still haven't provided a source, or where he said it even, and considering your constant charges of sinister activities in regards to Muslim groups, I think it more than fair to ask where you sourced the quote from, which I note you have yet to bother doing so.

Secondly, we are talking about CAIR, who are not comparable to individual, and they would have mission statement on there web site, and the only back up you gave for your claims, was one you attribute to there founder, and don't source it, or date it and it should also be noted he is no longer on CAIRs board as well.

Now, when you look at things properly, we see how silly what your saying really is.

Black Swan

America needs an enemy. This keeps their political system focused and unified, consistent with the political maxim, "the best thing for in-group unity is an out-group threat." Having an enemy also profits the capitalistic military-industrial complex, and justifies the huge defense budget.

During WWII, American had the Germans and Japanese as enemies (sorry Italy, they would rather eat your pasta than take you seriously). After WWII America had the Communists as their enemy (but now have dumped that notion in favour of cheap goods "Made in Communist China"). So thanks to Osama bin Laden, Israel, two Bush presidents, and a Christian majority, America has its enemy in the followers of Islam, more often than not found in Middle Eastern countries.

This observation is consistent with the reading of these Ground Zero Posts, as well as staying attuned to the news media reports regarding this issue. Certainly the Ground Zero Mosque controversy is small in comparison to the two wars raging in Afghanistan and Iraq, but it is nevertheless axiomatic of America's generally discriminatory and often hateful attitude towards believers of the Islamic faith. America has its enemy.

Amerika

wes wrote: »

Well, considering you still haven't provided a source, or where he said it even, and considering your constant charges of sinister activities in regards to Muslim groups, I think it more than fair to ask where you sourced the quote from, which I note you have yet to bother doing so.

Secondly, we are talking about CAIR, who are not comparable to individual, and they would have mission statement on there web site, and the only back up you gave for your claims, was one you attribute to there founder, and don't source it, or date it and it should also be noted he is no longer on CAIRs board as well.

Okay, one simple question. Are you just being a goober or can you honestly not find any sources for that quote? If in fact you can’t find it on the web, here is one for you:
http://www.examiner.com/tea-party-in-chicago/another-islamic-conference-coming-to-chicago-area
But if as I expect the real reason being the former, I gather what I provide you is of no consequence, and I want back the 15 seconds it took me to find it.

Overheal

One of the planned speakers for the conference is Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) who has said:

“Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam … Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”

There are other speakers planned for the conference who not only share the views of Mr. Ahmad, but espouse far more stronger views.

Hmmm.

more stronger

*snicker*

metrovelvet

Even Obama has remained silent on their wisdom to build it but outspoken on their right to, which I think is telling.

wes

Amerika wrote: »

Okay, one simple question. Are you just being a goober or can you honestly not find any sources for that quote?

Ah yes, resorting to insults :rolleyes:

Amerika wrote: »

If in fact you can’t find it on the web, here is one for you:
http://www.examiner.com/tea-party-in-chicago/another-islamic-conference-coming-to-chicago-area

But if as I expect the real reason being the former, I gather what I provide you is of no consequence, and I want back the 15 seconds it took me to find it.

From your link:

One of the planned speakers for the conference is Omar Ahmad, co-founder of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) who has said:

“Those who stay in America should be open to society without melting, keeping Mosques open so anyone can come and learn about Islam. If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam … Islam isn’t in America to be equal to any other faiths, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.”

You are the one who used the quote, and as such you have to back it up, and not me.

Also, you link doesn't say where he said, or when he said it either...... So we are back to square one. So once again, where did he say and when. Until I can see that information, I am calling the quote a fake.

Personally, I don't believe stuff just because someone said it on there Internet, and I tend to very skeptical about quotes that have are not attributed correctly, like the one you provided, and like the same one in the link you provided.

Oh and here is some information on the author:

Joe Miller

Joe Miller is a passionate conservative patriot concerned about the ills that beset the Country and Illinois, and the role that the Tea Party movement can play in reversing the current trends in our Government. He is retired and holds a Masters Degree in Criminal Justice Management. He has been involved in the Tea Party movement in Illinois since 2/27/2009, and has organized, or helped to organize, Tea Party events throughout the State. He is on the leadership team of IllinoisTea, the leading Tea Party in Illinois, and writes a blog, http://governmentrape.blogspot.com/ . E-mail Joe at de3man@sbcglobal.net

So, let see your source, is a website called examiner.com, and let look at there about page:

About Examiner.com
Looking to create a name for yourself, share your knowledge with an online audience or meet other writers like yourself?

Known as Examiners, Examiner.com contributors are passionate, local insiders who write about almost anything. From events and reviews to trends and local happenings, with 25 categories to choose from, you’re an expert on something. Tell us what it is!

So, basically a random local tea party member who writes for examiner.com, hardly the most trust worthy source, (and I think fair to say he is politically biased as well) used the same quote as you, and did not attribute it correctly, he doesn't mention when and where it was said, so once again this seems like another smear job.

**EDIT**
Honestly, the sources you use are really questionable, and all seem to be from conservative blogger's and the like.

Also, his blogs url is "governmentrape.blogspot.com" (now replaced by http://www.government-rape.com/) and its called "Are we getting raped by the government", and you expect me to believe this guy.....

You are really giving me some good laughs here, with your sources....
**EDIT**

GuanYin

Mod:
Guys, calm down or I will take out the ban stick.

Regarding sources, if you're attributing a quote or a fact and are asked for a source, provide it or retract.

everyday taxi

Amerika wrote: »

How about that! Most of the American people are siding with that horrible Sarah Palin, who has the guts to say what most Americans have on their minds:

"Mr. President, should they or should they not build a mosque steps away from where the radicals killed 3,000 people? Please tell us your position. We all know that they have a right to do it, but should they? And no, this isn't above your pay grade."

Don't you just love it?

I wonder would the question of it been built have been asked say.. a month after 9/11?