Ground Zero Mosque

Anonymous1987

People opposed to the mosque miss the point that it was Al-Qaeda not Islam which was responsible for 9/11. The location of the mosque is irrelevant if people make this distinction.

Palmach

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

People opposed to the mosque miss the point that it was Al-Qaeda not Islam which was responsible for 9/11.

And what drives Al Qaeda? Are they Quakers? From which book do they quote before a suicide mission? (videos on you tube)

wes

Palmach wrote: »

And what drives Al Qaeda? Are they Quakers? From which book do they quote before a suicide mission? (videos on you tube)

So all Muslims should be held responsible for there actions? That is what is basically being said essentially by the Center opponents, and guilt by association is rightly considered bigotry.

Also some more information on the Muslim taxi driver who was stabbed for being Muslim:

New York Muslim taxi driver stabbed

Thankfully, he seems to be ok.

Otacon

Palmach wrote: »

And what drives Al Qaeda? Are they Quakers? From which book do they quote before a suicide mission? (videos on you tube)

Can you not see the bigotry in that statement?

I would like Ireland to be united again one day. But other people with the same opinion have taken this and commited atrocities because of it. Should I also be punished despite me completely and utterly detesting their methods and violent ideology?

Anonymous1987

Palmach wrote: »

And what drives Al Qaeda? Are they Quakers? From which book do they quote before a suicide mission? (videos on you tube)

There are 1.5bn Muslims in the world, approximately 1 in 4 people in the world, 7 million in the US alone yet the vast majority of these people do not share the same views of Al Qaeda. Surely if all these people shared the same views as Al Qaeda we would be witnessing vastly more wide spread terror attacks instead we see a handful of attacks and attempted attacks committed by a few individuals with limited resources. The point is that the people building the mosque near ground zero believe their views on Islam are consistent with US values not opposed to them.

Nodin

Palmach wrote: »

And what drives Al Qaeda? Are they Quakers? From which book do they quote before a suicide mission? (videos on you tube)

And here we go with 'They're all the same' again....

Palmach

Nodin wrote: »

And here we go with 'They're all the same' again....

*yawns*

oscarBravo

Palmach wrote: »

*yawns*

You can yawn all you want, but - whether or not you're prepared to admit it to yourself - you're guilty of tarring all Muslims with the terrorist brush, using the logical fallacy of "Al Qaeda are terrorists, Al Qaeda are Muslims, therefore Muslims are terrorists."

If that's not your intention, clarify your points, and explain why the existence of terrorists who are Muslims is relevant to this thread.

metrovelvet

oscarBravo wrote: »

You can yawn all you want, but - whether or not you're prepared to admit it to yourself - you're guilty of tarring all Muslims with the terrorist brush, using the logical fallacy of "Al Qaeda are terrorists, Al Qaeda are Muslims, therefore Muslims are terrorists."

If that's not your intention, clarify your points, and explain why the existence of terrorists who are Muslims is relevant to this thread.

But Al Q are doing it in the name of Islam. And the thing is we dont publically see enough Muslim leaders denouncing Al Q. Denouncing the death threats on Salman Rushdie, or other wacky act that some Muslims do like the death threats to the Danish Cartoonists. We dont see them actively denouncing it, so it looks like approval and consent.

Palmach

oscarBravo wrote: »

You can yawn all you want, but - whether or not you're prepared to admit it to yourself - you're guilty of tarring all Muslims with the terrorist brush, using the logical fallacy of "Al Qaeda are terrorists, Al Qaeda are Muslims, therefore Muslims are terrorists."

If that's not your intention, clarify your points, and explain why the existence of terrorists who are Muslims is relevant to this thread.

I have made my points. Nodin tries to twist what I said to mean something else.

Maybe you haven't read the thread so I'll tell what I think (the others have had this explained but aren't interested in acknowledging it).

For the 1000th time.Not all Muslims are the same. But what can not be denied is that the 9/11 terrorists were inspired by Islam so an Islamic cultural centre so close to Ground Zero can, and indeed is, construed as insensitive. The Cordoba Institute may not share the same extreme beliefs as the 9/11 hijackers but they do share an overarching philosophy in the same way that Methodists and Catholics are different but they are both Christians.

Have they the legal right to build it where they intend? Absolutely so but what I fail to see is why a group so supposedly devoted to cross community agreement and interfaith dialogue are plowing on with something that clearly is divisive. If Germany wanted to put a cultural centre close to Auschwitz it would be insensitive. It doesn't mean all, or even a majority, of Germans have anything to do with what happened but the people who did the crimes were German.

One final point what clearly gets on my wick is people tarring opponents of the Centre as bigots. It is intellectual laziness of the highest order.

wes

metrovelvet wrote: »

But Al Q are doing it in the name of Islam. And the thing is we dont publically see enough Muslim leaders denouncing Al Q. Denouncing the death threats on Salman Rushdie, or other wacky act that some Muslims do like the death threats to the Danish Cartoonists. We dont see them actively denouncing it, so it looks like approval and consent.

So, if someone doesn't condemn something, its the same as them actually doing it? If thats the case, then its still a rubbish reason, and still in the vein of collective guilt.

wes

Palmach wrote: »

One final point what clearly gets on my wick is people tarring opponents of the Centre as bigots. It is intellectual laziness of the highest order.

No, it isn't as some of them are clearly bigots, as have been shown several times already in the thread.

Palmach

metrovelvet wrote: »

But Al Q are doing it in the name of Islam. And the thing is we dont publically see enough Muslim leaders denouncing Al Q. Denouncing the death threats on Salman Rushdie, or other wacky act that some Muslims do like the death threats to the Danish Cartoonists. We dont see them actively denouncing it, so it looks like approval and consent.

Precisely. The OIC have motions down in the UN about the Danish Cartoons, Islamophobia, Salman Rushdie and of course Israel. But they never ever criticise Al Qaeda or islamic fundamentalism. Remember the Undercover Mosque programme in the UK? In the aftermath islamic groups complained loudly about Channel 4 and complained Channel form to the authorities and the police. About the hate preachers in the programme. Not a whisper from them.

Palmach

wes wrote: »

So, if someone doesn't condemn something, its the same as them actually doing it? If thats the case, then its still a rubbish reason, and still in the vein of collective guilt.

If they were doing it in your name wouldn't you say something?

Palmach

wes wrote: »

No, it isn't as some of them are clearly bigots, as have been shown several times already in the thread.

Where exactly? Proof?

wes

Palmach wrote: »

If they were doing it in your name wouldn't you say something?

Did the worlds Muslims elect Osama as there leader? The answer is of course, no. He is a rich nutter in a cave in some mountains between Afghanistan or Pakistan.

Also, plenty of Muslim groups etc have condemned 9/11 and other terrorist attacks, but even if they didn't, that still doesn't mean they some how share the blame. It would still be bull**** collective guilt.

Palmach

wes wrote: »

that still doesn't mean they some how share the blame.

They don't share the blame but their religion inspired the atrocity. It should give them at least pause for thought.

wes

Palmach wrote: »

Where exactly? Proof?

Really?

Ok, then:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67028418&postcount=16

Plenty more examples, all throught the thread, which you seem to be denying the existence of all of a sudden.

wes

Palmach wrote: »

They don't share the blame but their religion inspired the atrocity. It should give them at least pause for thought.

Great, so then you then retract your opposition to the Islamic center then? Right?

Palmach

wes wrote: »

Great, so then you then retract your opposition to the Islamic center then? Right?

No.

metrovelvet

wes wrote: »

So, if someone doesn't condemn something, its the same as them actually doing it? If thats the case, then its still a rubbish reason, and still in the vein of collective guilt.

It kind of is. It certainly shows an indifference. Dont' you think the Salman Rushdie death threats are a little OTT, and that's not AL Q - and the riots about the Danish Cartoon, were not exactly an obscure little group of Muslims.

I don't see any Muslim leader condemning any of that crazy behavior. So what do you expect people to think?

wes

Palmach wrote: »

No.

See, now what your saying doesn't make any sense. If there not responsible for 9/11, then why should they move? It wasn't there fault after all....

metrovelvet

Look, I'm not responsible for the holocaust but I wouldn't walk into a Jewish home wearing a crucifix.

wes

metrovelvet wrote: »

It kind of is.

So if you don't condemn something you guilty of it? Ok, well you see we can now have a field with this one.....

metrovelvet wrote: »

It certainly shows an indifference.

Yes, if what your saying was true it would.

metrovelvet wrote: »

Dont' you think the Salman Rushdie death threats are a little OTT, and that's not AL Q - and the riots about the Danish Cartoon, were not exactly an obscure little group of Muslims.

Yes, all those things are terrible, but again why should someone who was not involved in any of that, take any blame? So what if they did or did not condemn it. How exactly do you know there position either way.

metrovelvet wrote: »

I don't see any Muslim leader condemning any of that crazy behavior. So what do you expect people to think?

Well, I would expect people to you know use Google:

Muslim leader condemns protesters

[sarcasm]Now, considering it took me less than 30 seconds to find that, it does make me wonder why people make the factually incorrect claim that Muslim leaders don't condemn these things. After all the information is easily avaliable. It does make one wonder.[/sarcasm]

wes

metrovelvet wrote: »

Look, I'm not responsible for the holocaust but I wouldn't walk into a Jewish home wearing a crucifix.

Firstly, why would they be offended by that?

Secondly, a private home isn't the same as a someone building something on land they own. On the one hand you are respecting someone in there own home, but on the other hand, you basically telling people what to do with land they own. This strikes me as inconsistent.

the_syco

wes wrote: »

Also some more information on the Muslim taxi driver who was stabbed for being Muslim:

New York Muslim taxi driver stabbed

Thankfully, he seems to be ok.

So NY is the new Norn Iron: wrong religion will get you killed.

Palmach wrote: »

*yawns*

What religion are you? Whatever you answer, I should be able to easily call you a terrorist, and tell of some terrorist group that represents you...

Palmach

wes wrote: »

Really?

Ok, then:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67028418&postcount=16

Plenty more examples, all throught the thread, which you seem to be denying the existence of all of a sudden.

LOL! Well done on buying that one. Total gullibility. here is the statement from on of the Coptic Christians concerned on what actually happened....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/live-webcast-tonight-coptic-christian-activist-joseph-nassralla-pamela-geller-and-robert-spencer-res.html

Guess it is waiting I'll be for that proof.

Palmach

the_syco wrote: »

So NY is the new Norn Iron: wrong religion will get you killed.


What religion are you? Whatever you answer, I should be able to easily call you a terrorist, and tell of some terrorist group that represents you...

I am an atheist. And if I said Catholic what terrorist group represents me?

wes

Palmach wrote: »

LOL! Well done on buying that one. Total gullibility. here is the statement from on of the Coptic Christians concerned on what actually happened....
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/live-webcast-tonight-coptic-christian-activist-joseph-nassralla-pamela-geller-and-robert-spencer-res.html

Guess it is waiting I'll be for that proof.

Wow, its amazing that you think your link disproves anything, from your own link:

There was a minor incident at the rally that was blown out of proportion, when my partner, Mr. Karam El Masry, and I were distributing material with some Quran verses and we were also speaking Arabic thus we were mistaken by a few people in the huge crowd, for being Muslims infiltrators trying to disrupt the event. This misunderstanding was clarified when we explained who we were and that we are there to support the crowd against the building of the mosque. I was a little frustrated initially for being identified as a Muslim infiltrator, but was glad that the issue was resolved later. My partner, Mr. El Masry, was even able to freely speak to the crowd after our identity was clarified. He explained how Christians are tortured, killed and oppressed in Egypt at the hands of Muslims who are encouraged to persecute Christians from the pulpit of mosques by Muslim preachers.

So the incident did occur, and some of opponents are bigots.

The letter is just about how everyone there isn't a bigot, which I have stated myself btw. So again my statement still stands. Also, again plenty of example of bigotry in the thread, which you are clearly dismissing as you attempt to with the above.

Also, to put it simply opposing the Center on the grounds that a group of Muslims did 9/11 is bigotted, as such opposition is holding all Muslims to a collective guilt over 9/11.

oscarBravo

metrovelvet wrote: »

But Al Q are doing it in the name of Islam. And the thing is we dont publically see enough Muslim leaders denouncing Al Q.

How many is enough?

Palmach wrote: »

I have made my points. Nodin tries to twist what I said to mean something else.

Maybe you haven't read the thread so I'll tell what I think (the others have had this explained but aren't interested in acknowledging it).

I've read the thread, and what I'm seeing over and over - and again here - is doublespeak that Orwell would be proud of.

For the 1000th time.Not all Muslims are the same. But what can not be denied is that the 9/11 terrorists were inspired by Islam so an Islamic cultural centre so close to Ground Zero can, and indeed is, construed as insensitive.

Doublespeak. You're trying to say in the same breath that not all Muslims are terrorists, but that Islam is associated with terrorism just because some terrorists were Muslims.

The Cordoba Institute may not share the same extreme beliefs as the 9/11 hijackers but they do share an overarching philosophy in the same way that Methodists and Catholics are different but they are both Christians.

So you'd object to a Methodist church being built in Oklahoma city because Tim McVeigh was a Catholic?

Have they the legal right to build it where they intend? Absolutely so but what I fail to see is why a group so supposedly devoted to cross community agreement and interfaith dialogue are plowing on with something that clearly is divisive.

It's divisive because of people conflating Islam with terrorism. The divisions are between the people who insist that anything to do with Islam is a symbol of terrorism, and the people who understand that that is not the case.

If you like, it's a division between irrational emotion and reason. You're suggesting that the division be healed by ignoring reason and pandering to uninformed emotion.