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Quickest Blackbelt

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  • #152
    FruitLover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭FruitLover


    snowcrazie wrote: »
    Your own instructor who sees you several times a week for years will not be able to judge you on that one performance

    TBH, I don't think anyone should be judged on just one performance (same goes for academic grading) - anyone can have a bad day (or, for that matter, a flukey good day). If I had my way, there wouldn't be an actual test for grades - you'd be awarded it once your instructor felt you had achieved the standard. Impossible to standardize, of course, but let's not pretend that current grading is standardized either...


  • #153
    snowcrazie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 56 ✭✭snowcrazie


    Agreed, its very hard for a lot of martial arts to be taken seriously when there is such discrepancies.

    Perhaps that would be a better system, or perhaps a combination of both would work too.


  • #154
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    snowcrazie wrote: »

    I fully stand by my statment that your own instructor shouldn't grade you.

    I certainly agree that for the higher grades (black belt gradings) you should be graded by an external instructor. It's too easy for your own instructor's judgement to be swayed by the friendships that naturally form over the years of training together. An instructor would be glad not to be carrying out the gradings for his/her own students, as it removes the guilt that might arise if a student is not going to pass the test.

    Cheers,

    Z


  • #155
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Zen65 wrote: »
    I certainly agree that for the higher grades (black belt gradings) you should be graded by an external instructor. It's too easy for your own instructor's judgement to be swayed by the friendships that naturally form over the years of training together. An instructor would be glad not to be carrying out the gradings for his/her own students, as it removes the guilt that might arise if a student is not going to pass the test.

    Cheers,

    Z

    One of the things which drew me to Judo was the grading system, its honesty.. You fought & won your blue, brown & black blacks - or lost your fights, and so failed to make the grade.


  • #156
    EnjoyChoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭EnjoyChoke


    Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »
    One of the things which drew me to Judo was the grading system, its honesty.. You fought & won your blue, brown & black blacks - or lost your fights, and so failed to make the grade.

    In an informal way this also describes the grading system of BJJ.


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  • #157
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    EnjoyChoke wrote: »
    In an informal way this also describes the grading system of BJJ.

    Thats interesting, because a few years ago a lad came to our judo class from kickboxing.

    Afterwards we were chatting and this conversation came up. He'd achieved his BB in kickboxing from a well know Dublin coach/club.

    I mentioned that I loved the fact that unlike KB (my background too) someone couldn't grade to black without fighting - the look of horror on his face was priceless!.

    He said he didn't like fighting, and had never fought in competition. So I went down the line of asking how can he be honest with his students as to what works in competition and what doesn't - this was my biggest problem with KB blackbelts who never fought.

    He pressed me on the competition aspect of judo - and never came back.

    He's a blue belt BJJ player now. I'm guessing he should be looking to compete before going much further in BJJ?.


  • #158
    Doug Cartel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Doug Cartel


    Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »
    He's a blue belt BJJ player now. I'm guessing he should be looking to compete before going much further in BJJ?.

    You sure he doesn't compete? A lot of people are less apprehensive about BJJ competition than kickboxing. Also there's the chance that over the years he came to realise that competition is important.


  • #159
    Barry.Oglesby
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭Barry.Oglesby


    Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »
    He's a blue belt BJJ player now. I'm guessing he should be looking to compete before going much further in BJJ?.
    I honestly don't know how anyone can even go to blue belt without having competed at some level, but that's just me. It's a sport so why not play the sport? I mean, especially BJJ, where your tactics can dictate how hard your match can be to a certain extent. Don't want to get thrown? Pull guard. Bingo, that's the hardest part over, now you can just have a super-intense roll just like you do in training! I'm joking to some extent there as obviously it's all hard, but the takedowns tend to be the aspect people like the least in BJJ.

    I've no competitive requirements in my gym for people. Some people don't see it as a sport they see it as a method of passing a few hours a week. Others see it as an avenue to being better all round fighters, and others still see it as just good fun. But I think the one thing the guys who get really good have in common is that they compete. I was speaking to one of my girls (I think it's probably most important for girls to compete given the lack of female members in most BJJ clubs) after the Munster Open and she had a revelation in her NoGi category about her bottom game, purely from a 5 minute match, and that gave her a whole new focus for a good 6 weeks afterwards. That's the kind of thing you don't get from training.

    I respect people's wish to take whatever they want from classes and from training- fun, sport, fitness- but I'll always encourage people to compete and I think as the sport grows, people will be more willing to do so as the likes of the Masters and Seniors categories will become more available. Of course this is a circular problem. The current rate of entry precludes organisers from putting on masters and senior categories, which in turn leads to less entries in subsequent events. (no one wants to be the 35 year old first timer who gets put againt the 20 year old future champ in their first comp).

    Anyway. I'll continue to gently prod my guys into competition. I'm not too fussed on the whole belt thing. I've been there and done that and getting kicked around the ring as a 2nd degree TKD blackbelt by a thaiboxer sorted that one out for me fairly fast. In most arts it's utterly meaningless. In BJJ it still has some level of purity though I see some of the Gracies have cashed in now that Helio has gone.


  • #160
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Doug Cartel wrote: »
    You sure he doesn't compete? A lot of people are less apprehensive about BJJ competition than kickboxing. Also there's the chance that over the years he came to realise that competition is important.

    Last time I spoke to him he hadn't, but its been awhile and tbh its not a big issue with me. Its just that he stands out as someone who immediately shy'd away from judo because it involved fighting/competing for gradings above green belt.

    But then, maybe he's technically very good at BJJ and doesn't have to compete. I'm really not that clued in on BJJ gradings.


  • #161
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Barry.Oglesby wrote: »
    I'm not too fussed on the whole belt thing. I've been there and done that and getting kicked around the ring as a 2nd degree TKD blackbelt by a thaiboxer sorted that one out for me fairly fast.


    I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, as I agree with the whole thing. But just to share a similar story.

    My first night was in Portmarnock Judo Club, and my first training partner was was Tony White (a blind Judoka), and I remember thinking to myself - "poor guy, I'll take it easy on him", and getting battered :o

    It was so stupid, I used all the self defence techniques I'm learned over the years for my KB gradings, you probably had similar in TKD - if your attacker grabs you 'here', you do this and they'll fall down in agony... I tried all that, and was laughed at!.

    Then on the ground I thought, HA he can't throw me here - then he choked me!.

    I seriously don't believe I put on a pair of boxing gloves again!..


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  • #162
    EnjoyChoke
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 537 ✭✭✭EnjoyChoke


    Viviana Elegant Tap-dancer wrote: »
    maybe he's technically very good at BJJ and doesn't have to compete. I'm really not that clued in on BJJ gradings.

    What I meant by my earlier post was, like Judo, everyone has to "fight for their belts".
    Most, sometimes all, of this is done week in week out in the Gym. Everyone competes. You can't be technically good at BJJ without being good at competing in BJJ, they're one and the same thing.
    Formal competitions, with a ref etc. present, are a very important part of the sport but they're not a deal breaker. Even an extremely active competitor will only spend about 2% of their mat time on the competition floor, that leaves the other 98% to be hammered out in the gym.
    I do think most people should compete formally (it's vital for me personally) but I am conscious of the fact that some of the best players in the country don't.

    Incidentally I count the BJJ gradings that I attended as among the toughest competitions I've ever done.:)


  • #163
    Sid_Justice
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭Sid_Justice


    There is an important difference here between the Judo approach to grading as endorsed by the IJA and BJJ's. In Judo, you need to win fights (by ippon or wazari) there is no credit given for the style in which you win the fights. You could be 100kg guy taking small guys down with low scoring throws, getting into kesa-getame (judo side control) and head squeezing your way to black belt. If you fought some lovely judo, demonstrated a clear and deep understanding of the philosophy of the sport and the use of techniques but lost more battles than you won (simply by being caught by better people who are already blackbelts) you could potentially never get promoted.

    BJJ on the other hand doens't really base it on the winning but rather on the performance. You could go to a BJJ belt testing and be tapped out a couple of times but still get promoted.


  • #164
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Thanks Kev, that answer's my question nicely.

    Personally I've a few problems with that. First thing which comes to mind is (going back to my KB days), I'd attend a competition and see a lad warming up and hitting the pads with all sorts of fancy kicks & combo's & showed a very good understanding of how various kicks & punches worked in a combination - then only to see it fall apart when out on the mat or in the ring, where s/he couldn't bless himself.

    I've seen it happen in judo too, nice throws warming up - then bottle it in competition, but with competition experience they'd (both the kickboxer & judoka) settle down to be nice little fighters. But without the pressure testing of competition they'd probably always just remain technically minded (seem's to me to be an easy/safe route through your grades if you avoid competition).

    Only speaking personally, but when I started Judo I seen the grades above me as guys who'd proven they'd put in the training, fought and won their grades & when I compared that to my kickboxing organisation where people didn't have to fight I held those judo grades with utmost respect.


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